That's news to me! Falling door handles I've seen on older Camrys and very few. One common problem is falling gas door plates. Mine fell off on the 95 but has not falled on the 93. Go figure. I think someone must have tried breaking into the fuel tank. The door is made of plastic so the only way to replace is buy a new one at $48 bucks or try to find one at a junk yard.
I don't see a problem with fit a nd finish. It's the substandard (to me anyway) materials that Toyota has been putting on the vehicles lately, to wit: Tundra and Sequoia cheap plastic door panels. Camry, Corolla, yaris, cheap fabric, hard dashboards, Avalon quality control probs etc,etc,. Overall I believe they still make the best vehicles out there.
'Yota has cut corners to save money. So has everyone else. It's a no-brainer that many cars are not as well-put-together as they were at other certain times in our history.
Cutting 1 dollar in mfg cost per car will earn a carmaker millions of dollars a year. Cut it 5 dollars per car and you are talking major bux. Cut $15 per car and you are talking SERIOUS money.
......................bbl / yr ...... CO2 Emitted 08 Corolla........11.8.............. 6.3 tons 09 Corolla.......11.4...............6.1 Uses less fuel and emits less CO2 08 Civic...........11.8...............6.3 09 Jetta TDI.....11.9...............6.4
I think the quality of my 2007 Sequoia is higher than the new ones. Glad I bought when I did. It should make it easier to sell when I find a Diesel SUV I really like. GM went cheesy sometime after 1998.
You two are really thick headed. Keep spinning it all you want. I'm getting paid to sit here.
From this EPA site I get the 08 Corolla ......31 MPG combined....11.0 bbl/yr and 5.9 tons of CO2 ......................bbl / yr ...... CO2 Emitted 08 Corolla........11.8.............. 6.3 tons 09 Corolla.......11.4...............6.1 Uses less fuel and emits less CO2 08 Civic...........11.8...............6.3 09 Jetta TDI.....11.9...............6.4
You are doing exactly what you accused larsb of doing...cherry picking data... slick. Yes you are right :surprise: the 5m 08 is slightly more efficient than the 5m 09....
But... those models are far less than 10% of the total deliveries. That simply is cherry-picking. It's like GM saying that now the Cobalt has superior fuel economy to the Corolla and Civic. :surprise: . Well one trim level the XFE 5m does have higher FE ratings on the highway. Quantitites very very very limited. Don't try to buy one.
We both took the more logical position of presenting the high volume modes the 4ATs which outsell the 5m's by at least 10:1.
But yes you are right, if you cherry-pick the data.
Case closed - 90+% of the 09 Corollas are more efficient than the 08s and they produce less CO2. Toyota did the right thing, considering very people buy manuals. Many car companies gear the manuals more for performance, so that's why they are less efficient.
We could have come to this agreement a long time ago if either of you would have acknowledged the facts in the case. I felt like one of OJ's attorneys going after Darden.
I did not cherry pick. I went to the site and took the 2008 Corolla with the highest mileage. I do find it interesting that the newer Corolla with manual transmission has worse city mileage than the same engine with the auto. Something else I find interesting that builds my case against the new EPA rating system. The owners of the Corolla's of every engine and transmission are getting FAR better mileage than the EPA test ratings.
Yes they are. The quality of the materials used is the same. They do seem to have fixed the misaligned center console/dash panels. Why they didn't make it one piece is beyond me. There is still that perception that the Japan made are better cars. Having owned both Japan and Kentucky made they are both great cars. Mack
"Something else I find interesting that builds my case against the new EPA rating system. The owners of the Corolla's of every engine and transmission are getting FAR better mileage than the EPA test ratings."
Say it again brother! The new EPA system is totally worthless.
I read with some bemusement the 54 posts of back-and-forth between you and the rest over the Corolla. I would have jumped in at post one and pointed out that you were talking about the 1.8 5M, which went down from '08 to '09 (by two points city AND highway no less), and they were talking about the 1.8 4A, which went up from '08 to '09 (one lousy point in the city rating). Yes, I agree it sucks that Toyota actually lowered the fuel economy of this model for '09. OTOH, it is still pretty much the best-rated gas-powered car out there, virtually tied with Civic and Yaris and nothing else coming all that close (OK, Mini Cooper comes close, maybe Fit and Cobalt XFE too).
As for PZEV ratings, what folks may or may not know is that automakers selling in California-emissions states are required to sell a certain percentage of PZEV cars each year, and usually just pick the most common model for that purpose. It made sense for Toyota to pick Camry, since Camry was until recently its most popular model. Of course, it also gets PZEV credit for the Prius sales. Which is why it didn't put the extra gear in Corollas, increasing their cost. I wish we lived at a time when people would be willing to pay the extra $200 per car for PZEV emissions in every model sold. :-(
I can't wait for all the new hybrids to arrive from Honda and Toyota next year, but I can't help but wonder what it will do to Prius sales to have all the competition from Honda. ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
A couple of months ago Toyota announced an increase of 60% in Prius production for 'next year'. What's slick about this is that their fiscal year goes from 4-1 to 3-31. Their production year is different from our production year.
Take your pick on which time frame you choose. I think it means their production year which is about June thru May. Now whether we see a 60% jump is another question. Our US$ is in the pits and every vehicle shipped here could be shipped elsewhere, say Europe, and generate $5000 to $15000 more revenue. Or they could just be kept in Japan. The price of fuel is skyrocketing in Japan as well as here.
I can't wait for all the new hybrids to arrive from Honda and Toyota next year, but I can't help but wonder what it will do to Prius sales to have all the competition from Honda
As I understand it the new Honda hybrid will be 'Fit-sized; not 'Prius-sized'. It probably will get very very good FE ratings in the mid-50's I'd say.
Also this keeps 'order' amongst the 4 main hybrid players. This new hybrid will not compete directly with the others. It will bring a new stratum of buyers into the fold; i.e. the under $20000 level buyers. Grow the market first, compete later when it's solidly established.
If Toyota were to try and sell the Prius in the USA, for what they pay in the UK, how many would they sell? The dollar could force Japan to build here what they sell here. Which would be good for US.
The other questions. How long will people wait for a Prius? And, will the dealers honor the price on a vehicle order if the car comes in costing them more than they expected?
noppononly says, "Say it again brother! The new EPA system is totally worthless."
That is without a doubt the first time I have heard anyone say that.
Reality check:
The new EPA rating system is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR superior to the old one. Because now they are not falsely inflated. :shades:
It's FAR better for a sticker to say 25 and the buyer to get 27 than the other way around. That way, there can be no accusations of carmakers and the EPA "cheating" buyers.
It's FAR better for a sticker to say 25 and the buyer to get 27 than the other way around.
I agree with that. What I don't agree with is an EPA rating on the 2008 Corolla of 31 MPG Combined. When the average driver is getting 38.4 MPG combined and the worst driver is getting 35 MPG. That is an error in the neighborhood of 20%. So a buyer at the Toyota store see a Prius rated at 46 MPG Combined and a Corolla rated at 31 MPG combined. They do the math and think they are getting enough difference with the Prius to justify the difference in price. If the EPA ratings were even close to accurate which they were for ALL BUT the PRIUS on the older tests. They could make a selection based on facts rather than fiction.
The 2007 Corolla was rated 36 MPG combined on the old tests. The average driver got 36.1 MPG. I would say they were pretty darned accurate. Just makes it easier for the customer if there is at least a shred of truth in the EPA estimates.
I guess your opinion is they are close for the hybrids and to heck with all the rest.
The 08 Corolla 4 cyl, 1.8 L, Automatic 4-spd mpg estimates from "drivers like you" are based on 16 people and those 16 people care enough about mpg to go to fueleconomy.gov and post. The people getting normal mpg may not feel a need to brag and the people getting awful mileage may be too ashamed to admit it. It looks like the 07 Corolla automatic had 22 people report mpg. Not a lot of data points in other words.
As the fine print says, "The user estimates shown above are based on data from Your MPG users rather than official sources. Since the source data cannot be verified, neither DOE nor EPA guarantees the accuracy of these estimates."
I've almost always beaten the old EPA estimates but I'm not commuting in traffice or racing to the red lights all that much.
The official numbers could be closer to reality for most folks - in any event they are standardized, unlike me and you logging and reporting numbers.
If the sample size was a few thousand, then maybe that would warrant some retesting but I don't think we even have close to 200 mpg reports in the Toyota Corolla Real World MPG discussion what with the usual topic drift and all.
Just my normal anti-government diatribe. Are you going to set off some roman candles up there? Are fireworks legal in Idaho? They have outlawed everything here including the old sparklers. Probably best with the fire hazard. Have a great day....
Fireworks are legal in town but not past the city limits, but that law is largely ignored.
I'm strapped for any Toyota news to sort of keep on topic - I guess the company is lying low in the weeds, trying not to make GM look too bad, while they rake in the dough.
Well, that's for spring. Due late in the year is Honda's new CRX hybrid, priced around the same as the base Prius I would expect (maybe $1K or 2K less). That will be the first hybrid sporty car if you ignore the laughable Cayenne hybrid. That's two new models in CY 2009 to draw some Prius buyers away from Toyota...and it's not like they will stop selling the Civic hybrid.
However, it does seem like until GM gets its act together and puts its new 2-mode hybrid in the Malibu/Aura/etc, Toyota will have a corner on the midsize hybrid market, the existing mild and wholely unimpressive (but inexpensive, at least) Malibu and Aura hybrids notwithstanding.
larsb:"The new EPA rating system is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR superior to the old one. Because now they are not falsely inflated.
It's FAR better for a sticker to say 25 and the buyer to get 27 than the other way around."
I hear you, However, counterpoint: the new system compresses all the ratings so much that it falsely makes it appear that tiny 4-cylinder-powered cars only save 10-15% in gas vs misdize V-6 sedans. The truth is they save much more, and if I were a conspiracy theorist I would suspect this was a little bit of underhanded manipulation by companies like Chrysler, whose average fleet economy is very poor and V-6/V-8 heavy.
And you think they were falsely inflated before? Nah. Not in my experience at least, and I promise you that while I am fuel economy-conscious, I am definitely no hypermiler.
My Echo was rated 34/41 when new. My running average is 42 mpg. My Matrix was rated 30/36, my running average is 35.5. Before that, the RSX was rated 27/33, my average was 32. My 4Runner, 17/20, my running average was 20. My Outback Sport was rated something like 21/27, I always managed 27-28 mpg. My mid-90s Saturn SL2 was rated 25/34. I didn't track mileage as closely back then, but it was always better than 30 mpg.
All of my driving in all that time has been suburban. The old numbers inflated? Not hardly. The new numbers are so DEflated that they provide a poor basis for comparison.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
A Tale of Two Hybrids . I don't see how you could win with either one of those. Especially a single guy. One makes you look like a geek the other an old codger. I will never be a SEEDAN MAN. If it ain't a truck or an SUV, it ain't the rig for me....
I never had a problem with the old EPA ratings since I like you mostly hit them right on with responsible driving. 30-34 Highway was the norm for my Camry's since 1989.
The new numbers don't much bother me either because there's enough evidence available to show that they are all about 8-10% too low. But so what. I'm thinking that the EPA simply said..
"You don't like our old numbers, fine we'll lower them 10-12% now everybody will exceed the numbers, happy now?"
Actually the old EPA tests were so outdated that they were practically worthless. Who drives on nothing but flat roads at 40mph without the a/c on? The tests for 08 models is more real world driving. A/c on stop and go, higher speeds etc. Mack
You must have missed the late-breaking news: SUVs are dead, and pickups are going back to their roots as work, farm, and ranch vehicles. Cars are where it's at, including that decades-old mainstay, the 4-door sedan!
You won't see me buying a 4 door sedan. My wife likes them ok. She likes the Sequoia better than her LS400. I will always keep a PU truck around. There is nothing practical about a sedan to me. Maybe a hatchback or a wagon. Never a sedan. The Sequoia & Land Cruiser are the ONLY SUVs selling well at Toyota. The rest are all showing negative numbers.
From my driving in our area I found the old EPA numbers to be pretty accurate for both the Camry and the Prius. Now that fuel has gone north of $4 I think that a lot of drivers will eshew 75-80 mph driving and scale it back to 55-65 mph and find that doing 55 will make them hypermilers in their Camrys and Corollas.
Getting 33 on the Hwy in a new Camry or getting 40-ish in a new Corolla is a snap if the speed is kept to a rational 60 mph...even with the AC on anything except 'Frigidaire' setting.
But admittedly this is from driving in the crowded, moderate-weather MidAtlantic and Northeast. Quite possibly driving in TX where 80 mph and 100+ deg is the norm would change my results.
Heck, I'd buy a Honda just because it isn't a Toyota. I think it would be an excellent strategy to develop a hybrid car for the sub-$20K market and get them into the hands of the people who desperately need the gasoline savings versus providing a conveyance for wealthy smug pseudo-environmentalists. Look at some of these guys! They have a hybrid to show how environmentally-conscious they are yet live in a 5,000 sq ft house that probably consumes more energy than 5 full-size SUVs.
Well, you will get your wish next year. Two Honda hybrids under $20K. Well, maybe 1, and another new hybrid model at $21K. But if they are smart they will make them both sub-$20K.
As for Toyota, it will be prepared, apparently, to sell 300K Priuses here if it makes all the extra cars available in the U.S. as the press release was worded to imply. OTOH, kdh thinks they may go back on the spirit of that release and sell the cars elsewhere in the world instead, because of the super-weak dollar. I do wonder where they would do that: the Prius has been pretty unpopular in Europe as a result of the profusion of available small-engined and diesel-powered cars there. Perhaps in the newly expanding markets in Asia? The biggest markets there, like China, still have subsidized gas for the citizens. We will see. Toyota would quite likely be able to sell 300K Priuses here in the U.S. if it wanted to, judging by the numbers this year. Honda can't keep the Civic hybrid in stock either, and that's the first time that has happened since the new model was introduced in late 2005.
I hope they do decide to start building the Prius at NUMMI, as they could just kill these currency exchange issues in one fell swoop.
As for "sporty" hybrids: in a competition in the slalom between the WAY-over-two-tons, SUV-high-COG Cayenne and the GS hybrid, my money is squarely on the Cayenne. As it is in the quarter mile, ANYTHING on the straights, and just about every performance test I can think of right now.
No, it will be nice when Honda brings a genuinely sporty model to the hybrid world. Some would call the Cayenne sporty, I guess, but to me that just seems kind of :sick:
PS hey thanks, deskman, for bringing a well thought out opinion to the discussion and elaborating so articulately on your views! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well, I am always interested in dissenting views, if they have some substance to them. Repetitions of "(X Brand) BAD, (Y Brand) GOOD!" is very very boring.
Now if we just have you to thank for leading a troll in here, then I think I like YOU a little less! ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
GM has a market value in the range of Tata Motors of India and Avtovaz of Russia. It is also at risk of being dropped from the Dow ....because it's too little.
That is ironic that a toy car company has a greater market cap than a maker of real cars. I still don't understand how Rick Wagoner has been able to keep his job.
You seem have bought into the stereotype of the Prius buyer by the likes of "South Park" or this writer, whose name I won't even "dignify" (if that's even the correct word) by disclosing it:
“A cross between a Mazda and a miscarriage - IT'S [the Prius is] embraced by celebrities, environmentalists, and the nexus of evil: the celebrity environmentalist. Leonardo DiCaprio helms a hybrid hackeysack, allowing his conscience to remain clear while [having sex with] truckloads of broads who may or may not have been born before the Lillith [sic] Fair.”
The Toyota Prius has been vilified like this since the second generation model, introduced in the US as a 2004 model, was met with great success in the marketplace. It seems flag wavers and anti-Asian fanboys like to emphasize Toyota's seeming "hypocrisy" in producing such a fuel-sipping car and projecting a "green" image while at the same time building a new assembly plant in Texas to crank out huge Tundra pickup trucks. Would they say the same thing if General Motors, for example, had produced such a car while simultaneously selling Silverados, Suburbans, and Hummers?
BTW, in my small town in central VA, the Prius is quite popular, and I don't think anyone driving it is a celebrity.
My son and his wife bought a Prius two years ago as their first car. They were attracted by the fuel efficiency and the low emissions. Living in New York City, they are textbook examples of people who can make the most of the Prius's parsimonious fuel use. They also thought they'd get a huge federal tax credit of $3150, but this turned out to be a hoax due to the pernicious reach of the alternative minimum tax (a story for another day). Still they are quite pleased with the car, and they've been able to achieve average fuel economy in the 50+ mpg range. They are totally unconcerned with the image they project.
I suppose they could make a huge profit now by selling the car, but what could they buy to replace it?
I still don't understand how Rick Wagoner has been able to keep his job.
Who would want the headaches for a buck a year? Unless someone comes in and buys the company and has a plan, they are probably stuck with what they got. The problem is no one with a significant amount of stock will want to sell at $10. The company is probably worth a lot more than that in pieces. If they file for bankruptcy they open all the doors to see just what it is worth.
Toyota's seeming "hypocrisy" in producing such a fuel-sipping car and projecting a "green" image while at the same time building a new assembly plant in Texas to crank out huge Tundra pickup trucks
Toyota could go a long ways in quieting that talk of hypocrisy by admitting they screwed up building the Tundra factory and converting it to building the Prius and other hybrids. They gave us ammunition when they build a plant and planned to sell 250,000 gas guzzling trucks and limit the sale of the Prius to under 200,000 units in the USA. Well their plan was poorly timed. Not many of US want a big gas guzzling PU truck. And a lot of people are waiting for a Prius that will never make it into their garage. I don't consider that great management strategy. GM needs to make a lot of changes and so does Toyota.
Well, I thought you liked big PUs, as long as they have diesel engines!
IIRC, Toyota's plan was to sell 200K Tundras a year, and they almost made it in 2007. Now of course, all bets are off. I don't think anyone thought gas prices could rise so quickly over the last few months -- I was paying just over $3 per gallon for 87 at the beginning of March, and this jumped to $3.90 by mid-June. Everyone's freaked, and for good reason. I don't know how easily even Toyota can convert the plant from making Tundras to Priuses.
As for the Prius, my understanding is that battery production is the bottleneck in preventing more from being built. Then again, last year at this time, dealers were well stocked with the car; my local dealer had maybe 10 or 15 on his lot.
There's talk of some reallocation of resources amongst the BOF plants. Toyota is not immune to the general market movement away from BOFs.
It has 3 plants in NA which make these but two of them ( NUMMI and Princeton also make unibodies ). There was already an article published indicating that they were looking to Princeton to make more Camrys, along with the 100,000 units being made by the Subaru plant in Indiana. NUMMI already makes Corollas but it's also the only plant that makes Tacoma's.
Ford and GM have announced striking changes already in the SUV/Truck segment. Toyota has to do the same, it's just a question of when and how. I wonder if Chrysler is aware that buyers are changing their habits?
Well, I thought you liked big PUs, as long as they have diesel engines!
I really prefer a midsized PU with diesel. The Tundra is just TOO big to be practical. It is just about as long as My MB Cruiser RV was. I don't see myself ever buying a new gas vehicle again. The Sequoia is the last one. When I find a diesel SUV I like I will put this on the market. I still think it is the best Sequoia Toyota has made. If it was capable of 25 MPG on the highway I would just keep it. Pull out the NAV/Stereo and put in a Pioneer NAV all in one with XM. I don't think I will have trouble selling it when the gas prices take a big dip. That is just the way American buyers are...
Me thinks investment banks are busy crunching numbers right now to tell their clients how/what to put together a deal for a GM hostile takeover. Will that be $2B cash and $4B stock? Tata is probably kicking themselves right now, should've save their resources for this pie, but they might have to share a bite with the Chinese. If Toyota is a US corporation and has a US corporation mentality, they would've pulled the trigger last week.
I don't think a hostile take-over is all that easy. To buy the company for $6 billion would be easy for a lot of other companies and investors. You have to have at least 51% of the stockholders willing to sell their stock at current market price. Kerkorian tried and was only able to buy 8% of the stock. At the time GM was at about $28. I think he was able to get someone onto the board with that much pull. How much of the stock does GM own?
Tundra, Sequoia and V8 engine production suspended for 3 months. Tundra production halted at Princeton, San Antonio will pick up the volume Sequoia production will resume in Princeton, along with Highlander production! which was supposed to start in Tupelo in 2009. This makes sense since the Sienna and Highlander while not twins are very close siblings.
Prius' will now be made in Tupelo!!!! Wow, that's a HUGE vote of confidence for that facility.
Have they even started on the walls yet? I was thinking they were still in the site grading and putting in water and sewer stage. Even if there is a shell going up, it should be early enough in the game to shift gears to change the tooling around to put a different vehicle line in. And it's not like they have to retrain a bunch of workers to handle battery packs. So the timing seems fortuitous.
Tupelo was the first TVA city, so I guess Toyota figures there will be plenty of cheap hydro power available to charge up those batteries.
Comments
I don't see a problem with fit a
Cutting 1 dollar in mfg cost per car will earn a carmaker millions of dollars a year. Cut it 5 dollars per car and you are talking major bux. Cut $15 per car and you are talking SERIOUS money.
The bean counters have input.
......................bbl / yr ...... CO2 Emitted
08 Corolla........11.8.............. 6.3 tons
09 Corolla.......11.4...............6.1 Uses less fuel and emits less CO2
08 Civic...........11.8...............6.3
09 Jetta TDI.....11.9...............6.4
I think the quality of my 2007 Sequoia is higher than the new ones. Glad I bought when I did. It should make it easier to sell when I find a Diesel SUV I really like. GM went cheesy sometime after 1998.
From this EPA site I get the
08 Corolla ......31 MPG combined....11.0 bbl/yr and 5.9 tons of CO2
......................bbl / yr ...... CO2 Emitted
08 Corolla........11.8.............. 6.3 tons
09 Corolla.......11.4...............6.1 Uses less fuel and emits less CO2
08 Civic...........11.8...............6.3
09 Jetta TDI.....11.9...............6.4
You are doing exactly what you accused larsb of doing...cherry picking data... slick. Yes you are right :surprise: the 5m 08 is slightly more efficient than the 5m 09....
But... those models are far less than 10% of the total deliveries. That simply is cherry-picking. It's like GM saying that now the Cobalt has superior fuel economy to the Corolla and Civic. :surprise: . Well one trim level the XFE 5m does have higher FE ratings on the highway. Quantitites very very very limited. Don't try to buy one.
We both took the more logical position of presenting the high volume modes the 4ATs which outsell the 5m's by at least 10:1.
But yes you are right, if you cherry-pick the data.
I did not cherry pick. I went to the site and took the 2008 Corolla with the highest mileage. I do find it interesting that the newer Corolla with manual transmission has worse city mileage than the same engine with the auto. Something else I find interesting that builds my case against the new EPA rating system. The owners of the Corolla's of every engine and transmission are getting FAR better mileage than the EPA test ratings.
Curious. Are any Camrys from Japan sold here? If so, is there any difference in the materials (plastics) and especially in the assembly thereof?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Cool.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
:shades:
So do the consumers. There's plenty of the previous gen Avalon that won't touch this gen with a ten foot pole.
I agree with you. The only thing nice about the new one is the 5.7l v8.
Mack
Mack
Have a great and safe 4th of July!!!!
Say it again brother! The new EPA system is totally worthless.
I read with some bemusement the 54 posts of back-and-forth between you and the rest over the Corolla. I would have jumped in at post one and pointed out that you were talking about the 1.8 5M, which went down from '08 to '09 (by two points city AND highway no less), and they were talking about the 1.8 4A, which went up from '08 to '09 (one lousy point in the city rating). Yes, I agree it sucks that Toyota actually lowered the fuel economy of this model for '09. OTOH, it is still pretty much the best-rated gas-powered car out there, virtually tied with Civic and Yaris and nothing else coming all that close (OK, Mini Cooper comes close, maybe Fit and Cobalt XFE too).
As for PZEV ratings, what folks may or may not know is that automakers selling in California-emissions states are required to sell a certain percentage of PZEV cars each year, and usually just pick the most common model for that purpose. It made sense for Toyota to pick Camry, since Camry was until recently its most popular model. Of course, it also gets PZEV credit for the Prius sales. Which is why it didn't put the extra gear in Corollas, increasing their cost. I wish we lived at a time when people would be willing to pay the extra $200 per car for PZEV emissions in every model sold. :-(
I can't wait for all the new hybrids to arrive from Honda and Toyota next year, but I can't help but wonder what it will do to Prius sales to have all the competition from Honda. ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Take your pick on which time frame you choose. I think it means their production year which is about June thru May. Now whether we see a 60% jump is another question. Our US$ is in the pits and every vehicle shipped here could be shipped elsewhere, say Europe, and generate $5000 to $15000 more revenue. Or they could just be kept in Japan. The price of fuel is skyrocketing in Japan as well as here.
As I understand it the new Honda hybrid will be 'Fit-sized; not 'Prius-sized'. It probably will get very very good FE ratings in the mid-50's I'd say.
Also this keeps 'order' amongst the 4 main hybrid players. This new hybrid will not compete directly with the others. It will bring a new stratum of buyers into the fold; i.e. the under $20000 level buyers. Grow the market first, compete later when it's solidly established.
The other questions. How long will people wait for a Prius? And, will the dealers honor the price on a vehicle order if the car comes in costing them more than they expected?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That is without a doubt the first time I have heard anyone say that.
Reality check:
The new EPA rating system is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR superior to the old one. Because now they are not falsely inflated. :shades:
It's FAR better for a sticker to say 25 and the buyer to get 27 than the other way around. That way, there can be no accusations of carmakers and the EPA "cheating" buyers.
I agree with that. What I don't agree with is an EPA rating on the 2008 Corolla of 31 MPG Combined. When the average driver is getting 38.4 MPG combined and the worst driver is getting 35 MPG. That is an error in the neighborhood of 20%. So a buyer at the Toyota store see a Prius rated at 46 MPG Combined and a Corolla rated at 31 MPG combined. They do the math and think they are getting enough difference with the Prius to justify the difference in price. If the EPA ratings were even close to accurate which they were for ALL BUT the PRIUS on the older tests. They could make a selection based on facts rather than fiction.
The 2007 Corolla was rated 36 MPG combined on the old tests. The average driver got 36.1 MPG. I would say they were pretty darned accurate. Just makes it easier for the customer if there is at least a shred of truth in the EPA estimates.
I guess your opinion is they are close for the hybrids and to heck with all the rest.
As the fine print says, "The user estimates shown above are based on data from Your MPG users rather than official sources. Since the source data cannot be verified, neither DOE nor EPA guarantees the accuracy of these estimates."
I've almost always beaten the old EPA estimates but I'm not commuting in traffice or racing to the red lights all that much.
The official numbers could be closer to reality for most folks - in any event they are standardized, unlike me and you logging and reporting numbers.
If the sample size was a few thousand, then maybe that would warrant some retesting but I don't think we even have close to 200 mpg reports in the Toyota Corolla Real World MPG discussion what with the usual topic drift and all.
I'm strapped for any Toyota news to sort of keep on topic - I guess the company is lying low in the weeds, trying not to make GM look too bad, while they rake in the dough.
Did anyone mention the 2008 Toyota Prius vs. 2008 Toyota Camry Hybrid comparison test? If the Prius is too Al Gore quirky for you, Toyota will sell you a Camry instead.
However, it does seem like until GM gets its act together and puts its new 2-mode hybrid in the Malibu/Aura/etc, Toyota will have a corner on the midsize hybrid market, the existing mild and wholely unimpressive (but inexpensive, at least) Malibu and Aura hybrids notwithstanding.
larsb:"The new EPA rating system is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR superior to the old one. Because now they are not falsely inflated.
It's FAR better for a sticker to say 25 and the buyer to get 27 than the other way around."
I hear you, However, counterpoint: the new system compresses all the ratings so much that it falsely makes it appear that tiny 4-cylinder-powered cars only save 10-15% in gas vs misdize V-6 sedans. The truth is they save much more, and if I were a conspiracy theorist I would suspect this was a little bit of underhanded manipulation by companies like Chrysler, whose average fleet economy is very poor and V-6/V-8 heavy.
And you think they were falsely inflated before? Nah. Not in my experience at least, and I promise you that while I am fuel economy-conscious, I am definitely no hypermiler.
My Echo was rated 34/41 when new. My running average is 42 mpg.
My Matrix was rated 30/36, my running average is 35.5.
Before that, the RSX was rated 27/33, my average was 32.
My 4Runner, 17/20, my running average was 20.
My Outback Sport was rated something like 21/27, I always managed 27-28 mpg.
My mid-90s Saturn SL2 was rated 25/34. I didn't track mileage as closely back then, but it was always better than 30 mpg.
All of my driving in all that time has been suburban. The old numbers inflated? Not hardly. The new numbers are so DEflated that they provide a poor basis for comparison.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
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I don't see how you could win with either one of those. Especially a single guy. One makes you look like a geek the other an old codger. I will never be a SEEDAN MAN. If it ain't a truck or an SUV, it ain't the rig for me....
I thought Toyota had a sporty hybrid car with the Lexus GS Hybrid.
The new numbers don't much bother me either because there's enough evidence available to show that they are all about 8-10% too low. But so what. I'm thinking that the EPA simply said..
"You don't like our old numbers, fine we'll lower them 10-12% now everybody will exceed the numbers, happy now?"
Mack
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
From my driving in our area I found the old EPA numbers to be pretty accurate for both the Camry and the Prius. Now that fuel has gone north of $4 I think that a lot of drivers will eshew 75-80 mph driving and scale it back to 55-65 mph and find that doing 55 will make them hypermilers in their Camrys and Corollas.
Getting 33 on the Hwy in a new Camry or getting 40-ish in a new Corolla is a snap if the speed is kept to a rational 60 mph...even with the AC on anything except 'Frigidaire' setting.
But admittedly this is from driving in the crowded, moderate-weather MidAtlantic and Northeast. Quite possibly driving in TX where 80 mph and 100+ deg is the norm would change my results.
As for Toyota, it will be prepared, apparently, to sell 300K Priuses here if it makes all the extra cars available in the U.S. as the press release was worded to imply. OTOH, kdh thinks they may go back on the spirit of that release and sell the cars elsewhere in the world instead, because of the super-weak dollar. I do wonder where they would do that: the Prius has been pretty unpopular in Europe as a result of the profusion of available small-engined and diesel-powered cars there. Perhaps in the newly expanding markets in Asia? The biggest markets there, like China, still have subsidized gas for the citizens. We will see. Toyota would quite likely be able to sell 300K Priuses here in the U.S. if it wanted to, judging by the numbers this year. Honda can't keep the Civic hybrid in stock either, and that's the first time that has happened since the new model was introduced in late 2005.
I hope they do decide to start building the Prius at NUMMI, as they could just kill these currency exchange issues in one fell swoop.
As for "sporty" hybrids: in a competition in the slalom between the WAY-over-two-tons, SUV-high-COG Cayenne and the GS hybrid, my money is squarely on the Cayenne. As it is in the quarter mile, ANYTHING on the straights, and just about every performance test I can think of right now.
No, it will be nice when Honda brings a genuinely sporty model to the hybrid world. Some would call the Cayenne sporty, I guess, but to me that just seems kind of :sick:
PS hey thanks, deskman, for bringing a well thought out opinion to the discussion and elaborating so articulately on your views! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Now if we just have you to thank for leading a troll in here, then I think I like YOU a little less! ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
the market's view
GM has a market value in the range of Tata Motors of India and Avtovaz of Russia. It is also at risk of being dropped from the Dow ....because it's too little.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=matchbox+cars .... GM's current competition
At some point the word 'inconsequential' becomes attached to GM when discussing it. But thank you for your input.
“A cross between a Mazda and a miscarriage - IT'S [the Prius is] embraced by celebrities, environmentalists, and the nexus of evil: the celebrity environmentalist. Leonardo DiCaprio helms a hybrid hackeysack, allowing his conscience to remain clear while [having sex with] truckloads of broads who may or may not have been born before the Lillith [sic] Fair.”
The Toyota Prius has been vilified like this since the second generation model, introduced in the US as a 2004 model, was met with great success in the marketplace. It seems flag wavers and anti-Asian fanboys like to emphasize Toyota's seeming "hypocrisy" in producing such a fuel-sipping car and projecting a "green" image while at the same time building a new assembly plant in Texas to crank out huge Tundra pickup trucks. Would they say the same thing if General Motors, for example, had produced such a car while simultaneously selling Silverados, Suburbans, and Hummers?
BTW, in my small town in central VA, the Prius is quite popular, and I don't think anyone driving it is a celebrity.
My son and his wife bought a Prius two years ago as their first car. They were attracted by the fuel efficiency and the low emissions. Living in New York City, they are textbook examples of people who can make the most of the Prius's parsimonious fuel use. They also thought they'd get a huge federal tax credit of $3150, but this turned out to be a hoax due to the pernicious reach of the alternative minimum tax (a story for another day). Still they are quite pleased with the car, and they've been able to achieve average fuel economy in the 50+ mpg range. They are totally unconcerned with the image they project.
I suppose they could make a huge profit now by selling the car, but what could they buy to replace it?
Who would want the headaches for a buck a year? Unless someone comes in and buys the company and has a plan, they are probably stuck with what they got. The problem is no one with a significant amount of stock will want to sell at $10. The company is probably worth a lot more than that in pieces. If they file for bankruptcy they open all the doors to see just what it is worth.
Toyota could go a long ways in quieting that talk of hypocrisy by admitting they screwed up building the Tundra factory and converting it to building the Prius and other hybrids. They gave us ammunition when they build a plant and planned to sell 250,000 gas guzzling trucks and limit the sale of the Prius to under 200,000 units in the USA. Well their plan was poorly timed. Not many of US want a big gas guzzling PU truck. And a lot of people are waiting for a Prius that will never make it into their garage. I don't consider that great management strategy. GM needs to make a lot of changes and so does Toyota.
IIRC, Toyota's plan was to sell 200K Tundras a year, and they almost made it in 2007. Now of course, all bets are off. I don't think anyone thought gas prices could rise so quickly over the last few months -- I was paying just over $3 per gallon for 87 at the beginning of March, and this jumped to $3.90 by mid-June. Everyone's freaked, and for good reason. I don't know how easily even Toyota can convert the plant from making Tundras to Priuses.
As for the Prius, my understanding is that battery production is the bottleneck in preventing more from being built. Then again, last year at this time, dealers were well stocked with the car; my local dealer had maybe 10 or 15 on his lot.
It has 3 plants in NA which make these but two of them ( NUMMI and Princeton also make unibodies ). There was already an article published indicating that they were looking to Princeton to make more Camrys, along with the 100,000 units being made by the Subaru plant in Indiana. NUMMI already makes Corollas but it's also the only plant that makes Tacoma's.
Ford and GM have announced striking changes already in the SUV/Truck segment. Toyota has to do the same, it's just a question of when and how. I wonder if Chrysler is aware that buyers are changing their habits?
I really prefer a midsized PU with diesel. The Tundra is just TOO big to be practical. It is just about as long as My MB Cruiser RV was. I don't see myself ever buying a new gas vehicle again. The Sequoia is the last one. When I find a diesel SUV I like I will put this on the market. I still think it is the best Sequoia Toyota has made. If it was capable of 25 MPG on the highway I would just keep it. Pull out the NAV/Stereo and put in a Pioneer NAV all in one with XM. I don't think I will have trouble selling it when the gas prices take a big dip. That is just the way American buyers are...
http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2008071034962
Tundra, Sequoia and V8 engine production suspended for 3 months.
Tundra production halted at Princeton, San Antonio will pick up the volume
Sequoia production will resume in Princeton, along with Highlander production! which was supposed to start in Tupelo in 2009. This makes sense since the Sienna and Highlander while not twins are very close siblings.
Prius' will now be made in Tupelo!!!! Wow, that's a HUGE vote of confidence for that facility.
Tupelo was the first TVA city, so I guess Toyota figures there will be plenty of cheap hydro power available to charge up those batteries.