I could never see the sense in buying a cheap little new car when the same money could get you a very nice used car.
The sense of buying a cheap little new car vs. an old used car are as follows:
1) They are inexpensive (hence, cheap). 2) If it's like a Civic, it drives and feels and looks like a premium car. 3) One's like a Civic save you on gas. 4) Ones like a Civic have tremendously good resale value. 5) Easy to park, drive, control. 6) Avoid hassles with used car risks (fraud, poor maintenance, abuse, neglect) 7) Enjoy something while it's new and fresh instead of old and stale. 8) Cheap to maintain and keep. 9) Warranty coverage.
I wish Chrysler would have warned me the lifespan of a Neon was that of a disposable BIC Razor. AS you say, it was a little "throw-away" car, but no one told me that. Only domestics make "throw away" cars by the way. Even the Chinese and Tata don't stoop to Chrysler's low standards.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
"...like a Civic." Well, why didn't you buy a used Civic, then you would've got the best of all worlds?
In favor of good used cars:
1) Good used cars can be purchased cheap. 2) You can actually buy a premium car used. Not just one that is "like one." 3) What you saved in the purchase price can go towards fuel and then some. 4) Poor resale value can work in your favor. 5) Handling depends on your abilities. I never had a problem driving traditional full-sized cars in tight city traffic. 6) Avoiding used car risks requires due dilligence on your behalf. 7) Something well cared-for can be just as enjoyable. Remember, EVERYBODY drives a used car! 8) Cheap to maintain depends on you. I've never had a problem keeping up with even the oldest cars I've owned. 9) Warranty coverage may be the only advantage of a newer car over an older one. But since Civics are so awesome and indestructible, why would you need one?
1) Good used cars can be purchased cheap. 2) You can actually buy a premium car used. Not just one that is "like one." 3) What you saved in the purchase price can go towards fuel and then some. 4) Poor resale value can work in your favor. 5) Handling depends on your abilities. I never had a problem driving traditional full-sized cars in tight city traffic. 6) Avoiding used car risks requires due dilligence on your behalf. 7) Something well cared-for can be just as enjoyable. Remember, EVERYBODY drives a used car! 8) Cheap to maintain depends on you. I've never had a problem keeping up with even the oldest cars I've owned. 9) Warranty coverage may be the only advantage of a newer car over an older one. But since Civics are so awesome and indestructible, why would you need one?
In response in numerical order
1) True, purely financially, used cars do make sense. 2) True, but you dont get that premium car at the top of it's game (when it was brand new). 3) True to an extent, with rising fuel prices what you saved on the purchase price may quickly be depleted by additional fuel costs in a year or two's time. Long term, great gas mileage may be the way to go! 4) Poor resale may work in your favor, but insurance claims will not (if you have one). 5) I know I can park my A3 in plenty of parking spots that you can't park your DTS in no matter how good you drive (parallel parking in a short spot being a prime example). Also, smaller generally means lighter, which generally means better gas mileage and better handling. 6) There is still some risk even with due dilligence. 7) But you don't know how the previous owner drove that car, nor how they maintained it (at least first hand). I think a brand new car has benefits your not mentioning. For example, the seats are brand new and very comfortable (the padding and support may wear a bit over time and diminish comfort slightly). A new car won't have as many rock chips, scratches and other such blemishes that are just unavoidable with time and miles. In general, things that are new just plainly perform better and at closer to their peak performance than things that are old. 8) I don't think #8 is compatible with #4. If #4 is true, then #8 will cost you big time. A car that is reliable and dependable and cheap to keep running won't haver terrible resale values (in almost all cases). Yes, #4 is not compatible with #8. 9) True, you don't really need a warranty with a Honda or Toyota. If I was offerred an additional $500 dollars to waive a new car warranty on a Toyota or Honda, I'd do it in a flash (of course, it would have to be done after the negotiated price is already agreed to so that it really is an ADDITIONAL $500 discount).
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The PT Cruiser was reliable. I owned one of those. Another quality build from Mexico. Is this a new trend? Fusion, built in Mexico is showing good results.
By the way, if I could go back in time I"d of probably either sprung for extra cash and debt and bought a new Civic instead of the Neon, or got like a 2 or 3 year old Civic for the same amount as the Neon. But I can't go back in time so here I am.
At the time, I suppose I was intent on owning a new car with that new car smell. I've always felt getting a nice new car just makes you feel better (at least in the short run). I've never really trusted used cars. For one thing, used car dealers are less ethical and worse than new car dealers. Used car dealers are definitely a rung or two down the ladder from new car dealers.
That being said, the one used car I was involved in purchasing turned out to be a GEM, and the two years we had it turned out to be the 2 lowest cost years for a vehicle I've ever had. The True Cost to Own on that was so low, and that includes having to get a few things fixed and replaced including the brakes, rotors, calipers, and instrument panel. By the way, that lowest cost to own car of all time for me was a 1992 Civic DX Hatchback that we bought in 2002 with 167,000 miles and took it to 200,000 miles. Resale was only $800 less than we originally paid for it (not including taxes/fees/licensing). That's right, $800 for over 24 months and 33,000 miles (That's excellently low depreciation I'd say). I believe it was a Honda Technician/Mechanic that bought it from us for his daughter's first car. He said the only thing that might of been wrong with the car when he test drove it was a minor barely audible exhaust leak. He didn't lower his offer for that.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Well, why didn't you buy a used Civic, then you would've got the best of all worlds?
Problem with something like a Civic is that, since they hold their value well, you're almost better off buying a brand-new one. With Japanese cars, I think you're usually better off buying new, although the more expensive ones might drop faster than the more mainstream ones.
When I was looking at cars after my Intrepid got totaled, I remember looking at used Altimas online, and IMO they weren't that much cheaper than new ones. For example, I just went to www.fitzmall.com, a local dealer group that's pretty big. They had two '08 Altima S models for $13,900, with 43-44,000 miles. But then they have brand-new 2010 Altima S models starting for around $18,144.
In a case like that, I'd just go brand-new, although I do understand that $4,244 difference can be a make or break difference. Still, 2.5 model years newer and 43-44K fewer miles as a starting point would be worth the $4,244 to me!
I don't have a direct Chevy example to compare, but they do have a 2009 Malibu LTZ 4-cyl listed, with the 6-speed auto, sunroof, leather, alloys, power seat, etc...all sorts of options a fairly basic Altima S wouldn't have, for $15,900...but it does have 41,000 miles.
The only brand-new LTZ they have listed has the 3.6 V-6. It has an MSRP of $30,545, but their internet price is $25,681. With leather, sunroof, alloys, and all that other nice stuff, that actually doesn't sound like a bad price...even though it's almost $10K more than the 4-cyl 2009.
After I bought my Intrepid, resale value was the one thing that bothered me, although I intended to drive the car until it dropped, anyway. I figured that if I ever got anything newer, I'd just keep it around as a nice spare car, or if a family member needed a car, pass it on to them.
I guess resale DID turn around and bite me on the butt when the car got totaled, and I only got $2000 for it. It was 10 years old and had around 150,000 miles. Okay, so maybe a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry would have fetched maybe $2,000 more, in the same condition? But the big question is...would a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord have cost $2,000 more in the first place? A 2000 Camry also does nothing for me, and while I like the 2000 Accord, both cars are really too small inside for my tastes.
There are millions of near permanently unemployed already in the US, and they include people with every sort of job skill, from unskilled manual laborers, to highly educated people with decades of experience who can not find a job because so much of the economy has been outsourced. Wall Street and the big banks nearly a decade ago constituted 16% of the national economy, now, just prior to the economic collapse they constituted more than 60% of the economy. They produce nothing and they consume the capital which should be put into productive industries. Has anyone noticed that China, even with its very low labor wages had the world greatest currency reserves? It is because they produce consumable wealth, and we are the worlds greatest debtor nation because we produce nothing but artificial financial bubbles. What we need to do is to stop the flood of illegal immigration and stop the job exports, and pay everyone a living wage.
Real unemployment is close to 20% - and in the middle of the worst job market since the Great Depression, the US government last year issued green cards to 1,131,000 LEGAL immigrants. This is one of the 4 highest numbers of legal immigrants per year on record. In order to reduce unemployment for Americans, there must be a moratorium on all LEGAL immigration for at least 5 years. At the same time, illegal aliens already hold an estimated 8 million jobs. If they were deported through enforcement, the labor pool would shrink and those jobs would go to Americans.
Wow...I remember when you bought that Intrepid and it doesn't seem like that long ago. Ten years!
Yep, November 6, 1999 was the day I bought it. And November 18, 2009 was the day it got hit-and-runned. And yeah, it's scary how fast those 10 years went by!
Yet I see few offers to work for say repairing our home or yard work. Of those actually doing work, it seems to be those people from Mexico. You would think, if times are so bad, construction workers, and heck kids going to college, would be beating on the door to offer services -- they are not. Yard work is done for say a minimum of $50 an hour, to what we found many not working for under $100 per hour. Not bad during a depression era.
Yes, we should bring back to the USA some more manufacturing jobs. I hope people would show at the door -- I know the Mexicans will. Many from that country appear willing and able to work. Lately there are plenty of people holding union signs stating shame on you for blah, blah, blah -- while those working on the job seem to actually be contributing to the economy. Really doubt that all those workers, or should I say any of them are illegal immigrants. What they are is best described as workers. I was talking to a lady at an insurance sales office the other day. This lady was retired and came back to work. Seems the company has had nothing but trouble with the young people they hired. They spent their time doing the least as possible, and watching the clock. Service to customer meant little to them.
There is a possibility of an inflationary depression, with a more troublesome possible collapse for the US dollar, should America fail to be able to service its debt. At which point we have chaos!
There is a possibility of an inflationary depression, with a more troublesome possible collapse for the US dollar, should America fail to be able to service its debt. At which point we have chaos!
Would this be similar to what happened to Weimar Germany during the 1920s? We saw what that led to!
I remember we used to compare notes, as I had a 2000 Intrepid ES, had every option except ABS...car ran well until 72K miles, had 75K lease with ext warranty...fortunately warr covered everything, gave back the car with about 74K miles in December, 2004...has it been THAT long since we no longer discuss Intrepid???...I replaced it with wife's 2004 Ram 1500 5.7L Hemi...slightly different gas mileage between Intrepid V6 and Hemi V8...kinda like the minor difference between speaking Mandarin Chinese and Portugese... :P :shades:
Oh, c'mon! The neighborhood around Independence Hall is not bad. It gets a little seedy above Spring Garden and below South Street, but most of center city is very nice. Well, Market Street east is a little ghetto, but that's only on account of the Gallery Mall and other low-priced stores.
on who will last longer..... Chrysler or Rite Aid.
Both companies I hate and earned their spot on my "black list."
Also on my "Black List," are:
1) AT&T 2) GM (for taking bailouts and generally getting poor reliability reviews over the years) 3) Best Buy 4) Any bank or institution involved with taking bailout money 5) Any government official or politician that voted for bailouts 6) Any government official or politician that thinks UNCONSTITUTIONAL video cameras make for good traffic enforcement of red lights or speeding. 7) Santee (SD County Sheriffs) 8) La Mesa PD 9) California Highway Patrol 10) Bristol West Insurance, Eastwood Insurance Agents, Coast National Insurance (underwriter) - funny, google Coast National Insurance and the 2nd hit is someone with similar complaints to mine about this company.
Companies that used to be on my black list but I've already thrown a party celebrating their demise:
1) Circuit City (good riddens) 2) All companies listed above that were bailed out (2 X for Chrysler)
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I certainly do not want for the day when a wheelbarrow full of dollars is needed for a loaf of bread. I believe there is already rioting in the streets in Greece.
Our brilliant politicians eliminated the Glass Stegall Act in '99 --- And here we are today.
Andres3, you own an Audi A3. I assume it to have EPS or electric power steering assist. How do you like that? Good on center feel, with little wander on the freeway off of center line? I have pretty new cars, but both have hydraulic power steering, and I am not longing for the day to change. I see Ford is going EPS on the new Mustang for 2011. The V6 sounds like a good ride in many ways, but the electric assist thing, I do question. I have an '09 Miata and '07 Accord SEv6. Will likely keep one of the two for some time -- perhaps both, but ya never know when you get the itch to buy something different. Perhaps my achy back tells me to go Mustang and out of the Miata some day. I do know I will not wear-out the Miata though, as this one seems tighter and much stronger than any before it, and the old ones could drive to 300K, if ya so wished.
My favorite choice domestic, at this time, is Ford. The Corvette is hot, but I am not so sure about GM, as over the years I had problems. And the car sets a bit too low - lower than a Miata. It appears that Chrysler is in some strange limbo -- nothing new? The Fiat/Chrysler deal seems rather odd. I liked the looks of some of the older Fiat sports cars and Alfa Romeo, but there ain't much they offer today. Unless something interesting comes along the Fiat/Alfa/Chrysler alliance seems useless to me -- what am I missing? No chance for a Challenger put on a diet, shrunk on down a bit, and adding a good stick to a V6, is there? Guess the last company making any sense in America is Ford. Fusion sedan and Mustang seem like a good enough deal, with the Taurus OK, should you want for super-sized FWD.
Have you even been to Philly? The area around Independence Hall and the entire historic district is very nice. You have to go many blocks in any direction before it isn't as nice. Now, if you expect Philly to look like Orange County, CA, you're going to be disappointed. I was in Aliso Viejo a couple years ago and couldn't believe how well-kept everything was. It looked as if you could drop your ice cream cone on the street and then pick it up and still eat it.
We go to a couple of places on Second Street in Philly - just around the corner from Independence Hall. In that one block there's a dozen good, interesting restaurants and several really goo d live music venues. It's funny how they manage that stuff in 300 year old buildings where everything is built narrow and deep.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I believe the A3 does have some form or derivative of EPS for the power steering. HOwever, it is a Variable Assist design which varies with your speed. I think it is a little over assisted at low speeds, but once you get going on the highway or freeway, or even back country canyon road twisties, the steering feel and feedback is actually very good, and there is not much to any "wander" for going straight. Try test driving one, they are a boatload of fun to drive.
I was totally turned off by a recent model Mustang I rented. I think it was a 2008 model. It had the obnoxiously loud, unrefined, gas guzzling V6, and to top it off, it was slow and gutless.
Also, the body panel gaps were ridiculously bad and the gas tank lid (the sheet metal part) didn't fit the car correctly and exhibited poor fit and finish and quality control on Ford's part. The handling wasn't even what I would consider "average" (granted, rental company tires are probably designed more for longevity than handling). Still, I'd give the handling a 4 out of 10. The interior had too much cheap hard plastics.
Seriously, the V6 Mustang makes my old 2003 Accord Coupe V6 look like an M5 on the road. The FWD Accord would smoke that RWD Mustang on any race track, drag strip, or any other road known to man.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The 2010 Mustang is NEW, really is!!! They got the handling down right, the body fit is better, and interior is classier. For 2011, they rid themselves of the industrial engine, made for an SUV, and give the car a 305 twin turbo V6 with more of a Euro or Asian sound. The 2008 may look the same, but it is not the same car.
I have the 2007 Accord, and it is said to be better than the current Accord for handling. Honda Accord and Civic are moving the wrong direction in respect to handling. And Accord is getting larger - fatter. Sorry to see that.
I am leery of electric assist steering, though Mazda3 is said to be good. I test drove a used BMW Z4 and it was OK, but I think still a bit hyper steering and center was a little effort I thought, with some drift and correct required.
I saw something at Seaside, CA, which made me stop and get out of the car to see a bit closer --- there before my eyes was a four door 911, for something like a hundred grand. First it was an SUV and now a sedan -- so sad, so sad. Recall a time when Porsche was a sports car, and Cadillac was a luxury car. Escalade, oh really - how about a Tahoe with bling-bling? Recall a beautiful Charger car by Dodge, and now we have ??? Have they no shame? Next up are Porsche trucks.
I would like to track down one of those 07 Accord sedans with the 6 and the manual transmission. I know no one bought them but if I spot one it's mine.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
The automatic is pretty good. It is a 5sp, with an option to lock in three gears only, with D3 selected. It works. Matter of fact, I like it as good if not better than the paddle shifter. Of course a real stick is pretty neat -- will get into a stick again somewhere down the road.
Steve, if you find a store or a private partyu who has one for sale, they will probably make you a great deal since they are so hard to unload.
If you are behind a V-6 sedan and the V-6 is a red emblem, that means it's a six speed. Other than the two we had here forever I think I've seen one other on the road.
Im confused, according to your criteria for being "blacklisted", chrysler should have already been on the list BEFORE you bought your neon '
I was too young and dumb to have figured out Chrysler was a sham and a scam back then.
I fell for the "Its different this time, we are new and improved, we aren't the same as before," marketing campaign from Chrysler. (Doesn't that sound familiar from Ford and GM right now? Deja Vu)
The Neon is why Chrysler was blacklisted, and I still maintain it is that model that is the single biggest reason and factor in Chrysler's demise today and recently. Customers that owned that car will never go back. Not only that, but friends of mine that knew me when I owned it, and knew how often it was in the shop, will likely never go to Chrysler for a vehicle.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
You can also tell by the wheels which are the same ones as used on the early 2000 era "Type S" Acura TL's and CL's.
I'm surprised the 6-speed V6 Accord sedans never caught on. They are quite aggressive drivers actually, although more straightline "muscle car" (yes, they pull like a V8 with a cool exhaust note to boot) than sports sedan a la Infiniti G or BMW 3. In 2004 the Coupe version actually smoked the (then) 5.7 litre GTO according to a MT comparo, which drove Government Motors to drop the 6.0 into the Goat for 2006.
If you find one, give it a test drive with an open mind. If you favor the zippy handling of a traditional Honda, you will be disappointed with the V6's added girth under the hood and torque steer from the increased lb/ft. But, get that puppy on a straight and hang on. :shades:
I actually bought one (in 06), and no, it is NOT for sale. It is very fast, much faster than the auto I test drove for comparison. The car may not be as toss-able as a true sports sedan, but it is stable and firmly damped with very little body roll in turns.
Good luck in finding one. I should have bought two (+ a last generation TL ). As things currently are with Honda, I'll going to have to hang on to mine for a long time...
Depends on what you mean by faster. The sticks were geared lower so the accelerate faster through the gears.
People kept asking for Honda to build these and they finally did only to find out that they didn't sell. We are the highest volume store in nine states and we sell a lot of cars but we couldn't sell those.
We started out with two of them and a year later we still had them. Thankfully another store requested a dealer trade for one of them
" Hey, I see you have a silver 6 speed Accord...any chance you'll trade for an AT?"
" Hmmm let me think.....well....O,K."
The other one eventually sold.
They still build coupe 6 speeds and we sell maybe two a year.
A few meant three or four and the net I'm casting includes both the NYC and Philadelphia metro areas so it's not that big a deal. Agin, they are asking crazy money. I'm sure they figure if someone went through teh trouble of looking one up they really want it.
It's been quite some time that sticks in Accord haven't been popular. When I bought the 00 they had to get it from 50 miles away and I had my choice of only two colors.
Back when i bought the 85 the majority of Accords were 5 speeds.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
True, you don't really need a warranty with a Honda or Toyota
Oh yeah? You might want to ask owners of V6 '07 Camrys and Honda Odysseys of ANY vintage...just check out the owner forums on Edmunds, particularly for the Odysseys.
I'm not saying domestics don't have problems...what I am saying is that imports do, despite what so many people (yawn) say.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Looking at the new Sonata, why in the h*ll would anyone make the cut of a rear door like that...so you have to duck to get in? Reminds me of mid'50's Chevys and Packards.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Looking at the new Sonata, why in the h*ll would anyone make the cut of a rear door like that...so you have to duck to get in?
I sat in one of those Sonatas at the DC auto show, and I don't remember it being all that hard to get into and out of. I think that rear door might look worse than it really is. While the roofline does slope downward, the beltline kicks upward and it has a high sill, so that might create an optical illusion that makes the door look lower than it is. Plus, the Sonata is pretty tall, as most cars are these days.
Would a '55-57 Chevy really be that hard to get in and out of? Their back doors were pretty upright, with fairly square windows, with only a slight slope towards the rear. They had the quarter window in the C-pillar, as well, so the upper window line in the back door didn't have to sweep down to the beltline.
One thing though, that makes that '56 Chevy look like it would be a bit hard to get in and out of, is that the door is fairly small. With newer cars, when you open the back door, it pretty much exposes the whole back seat area, so you can just open the door, turn,and get out. With those older cars, the seat tended to be further back in relation to the door, so often you'd have to lean forward a bit to get out. Most newer cars would probably have a back door with an opening that cuts back far enough to contain that stationary window on the '56 Chevy.
At least, with the 4-door sedan. Now the 4-door hardtop, that's a different story! I imagine you had to duck getting in and out of the back seat of those things!
I gotta say, I am a big fan of '55 and '56 Chevys, even though I own a couple Studebakers now for 'fun' cars. The first car I can remember my parents owning was a '56 Two-Ten two-door sedan, gray/white/gray with full wheel covers.
I think the Packard sedans of the mid'50's were worse in this regard...they had no small quarter windows in the body behind the rear doors...just that the door sloped WAAAYYYY down in the back. An old friend had a couple '56 sedans and I'd always crack my (big) head when climbing in the back a couple decades ago.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
So, which cars garner the most praise from CR? The Nissan Altima has officially dethroned the Honda Accord from the top family sedan spot, the Volkswagen GTI takes honors as the best sporty car, the trusty Subaru Forester takes the cake in the small SUV category, the quirky Mazda5 wins for best family hauler, and both the Chevrolet Traverse and Silverado stand tall as the best family SUV and pickup truck. These six newcomers join the Hyundai Elantra SE, Infiniti G37, Toyota Prius and Lexus LS460L to round out the entire list of Top Pick Cars.
This is the magazine that shows an area where the 4-cyl. Malibu is less reliable than the V6, is the audio system! Check it out. Also, they said a few years back that the Pontiac Torrent was more reliable than the Chevy Equinox--even though both were identical and built at the same plant.
I see their pick of the Prius is a car under a cloud of suspicion for brake safety. And we know about what CR themselves have said about the Lexus SUV.
Do you ever remember a manufacturer besides Toyota, being urged to discontinue sales of a model for safety purposes? Or how about truck frames rusting in two on trucks ten years old or less? I personally believe there is more than 'thick floor mats' to what's going on at Toyota, and apparently so does the U.S. government by their fine. And I think anybody who thinks all this has anything to do with GM being controlled by the government, has to ask themselves if that were the case, why were Toyota and other foreign manufacturers allowed to participate in "Cash for Clunkers"? Toyota (unfortunately) mopped the floor with the Big Three in that government-sponsored debacle.
And...I know you aren't referring to CR's reliability ratings, but I think one does have to ask, is surveying only paid subscribers of a particular magazine really a random sample?
I think recalls and quality issues from foreign manufacturers have long been relegated to 'page 7' if at all, while Big Three issues always warranted headlines...until Toyota's many travails of late.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Comments
The sense of buying a cheap little new car vs. an old used car are as follows:
1) They are inexpensive (hence, cheap).
2) If it's like a Civic, it drives and feels and looks like a premium car.
3) One's like a Civic save you on gas.
4) Ones like a Civic have tremendously good resale value.
5) Easy to park, drive, control.
6) Avoid hassles with used car risks (fraud, poor maintenance, abuse, neglect)
7) Enjoy something while it's new and fresh instead of old and stale.
8) Cheap to maintain and keep.
9) Warranty coverage.
I wish Chrysler would have warned me the lifespan of a Neon was that of a disposable BIC Razor. AS you say, it was a little "throw-away" car, but no one told me that. Only domestics make "throw away" cars by the way. Even the Chinese and Tata don't stoop to Chrysler's low standards.
In favor of good used cars:
1) Good used cars can be purchased cheap.
2) You can actually buy a premium car used. Not just one that is "like one."
3) What you saved in the purchase price can go towards fuel and then some.
4) Poor resale value can work in your favor.
5) Handling depends on your abilities. I never had a problem driving traditional full-sized cars in tight city traffic.
6) Avoiding used car risks requires due dilligence on your behalf.
7) Something well cared-for can be just as enjoyable. Remember, EVERYBODY drives a used car!
8) Cheap to maintain depends on you. I've never had a problem keeping up with even the oldest cars I've owned.
9) Warranty coverage may be the only advantage of a newer car over an older one. But since Civics are so awesome and indestructible, why would you need one?
You should compare a lightlyused Civic to a brand new Neon. You'd find an answer in a hury.
Yes, I know you can't buy a new Neon (Thank God!). OK - substitute with a Caliber.
2) You can actually buy a premium car used. Not just one that is "like one."
3) What you saved in the purchase price can go towards fuel and then some.
4) Poor resale value can work in your favor.
5) Handling depends on your abilities. I never had a problem driving traditional full-sized cars in tight city traffic.
6) Avoiding used car risks requires due dilligence on your behalf.
7) Something well cared-for can be just as enjoyable. Remember, EVERYBODY drives a used car!
8) Cheap to maintain depends on you. I've never had a problem keeping up with even the oldest cars I've owned.
9) Warranty coverage may be the only advantage of a newer car over an older one. But since Civics are so awesome and indestructible, why would you need one?
In response in numerical order
1) True, purely financially, used cars do make sense.
2) True, but you dont get that premium car at the top of it's game (when it was brand new).
3) True to an extent, with rising fuel prices what you saved on the purchase price may quickly be depleted by additional fuel costs in a year or two's time. Long term, great gas mileage may be the way to go!
4) Poor resale may work in your favor, but insurance claims will not (if you have one).
5) I know I can park my A3 in plenty of parking spots that you can't park your DTS in no matter how good you drive (parallel parking in a short spot being a prime example). Also, smaller generally means lighter, which generally means better gas mileage and better handling.
6) There is still some risk even with due dilligence.
7) But you don't know how the previous owner drove that car, nor how they maintained it (at least first hand). I think a brand new car has benefits your not mentioning. For example, the seats are brand new and very comfortable (the padding and support may wear a bit over time and diminish comfort slightly). A new car won't have as many rock chips, scratches and other such blemishes that are just unavoidable with time and miles. In general, things that are new just plainly perform better and at closer to their peak performance than things that are old.
8) I don't think #8 is compatible with #4. If #4 is true, then #8 will cost you big time. A car that is reliable and dependable and cheap to keep running won't haver terrible resale values (in almost all cases). Yes, #4 is not compatible with #8.
9) True, you don't really need a warranty with a Honda or Toyota. If I was offerred an additional $500 dollars to waive a new car warranty on a Toyota or Honda, I'd do it in a flash (of course, it would have to be done after the negotiated price is already agreed to so that it really is an ADDITIONAL $500 discount).
At the time, I suppose I was intent on owning a new car with that new car smell. I've always felt getting a nice new car just makes you feel better (at least in the short run). I've never really trusted used cars. For one thing, used car dealers are less ethical and worse than new car dealers. Used car dealers are definitely a rung or two down the ladder from new car dealers.
That being said, the one used car I was involved in purchasing turned out to be a GEM, and the two years we had it turned out to be the 2 lowest cost years for a vehicle I've ever had. The True Cost to Own on that was so low, and that includes having to get a few things fixed and replaced including the brakes, rotors, calipers, and instrument panel. By the way, that lowest cost to own car of all time for me was a 1992 Civic DX Hatchback that we bought in 2002 with 167,000 miles and took it to 200,000 miles. Resale was only $800 less than we originally paid for it (not including taxes/fees/licensing). That's right, $800 for over 24 months and 33,000 miles (That's excellently low depreciation I'd say). I believe it was a Honda Technician/Mechanic that bought it from us for his daughter's first car. He said the only thing that might of been wrong with the car when he test drove it was a minor barely audible exhaust leak. He didn't lower his offer for that.
Didn't the resale value "trouble" you at all?
Problem with something like a Civic is that, since they hold their value well, you're almost better off buying a brand-new one. With Japanese cars, I think you're usually better off buying new, although the more expensive ones might drop faster than the more mainstream ones.
When I was looking at cars after my Intrepid got totaled, I remember looking at used Altimas online, and IMO they weren't that much cheaper than new ones. For example, I just went to www.fitzmall.com, a local dealer group that's pretty big. They had two '08 Altima S models for $13,900, with 43-44,000 miles. But then they have brand-new 2010 Altima S models starting for around $18,144.
In a case like that, I'd just go brand-new, although I do understand that $4,244 difference can be a make or break difference. Still, 2.5 model years newer and 43-44K fewer miles as a starting point would be worth the $4,244 to me!
I don't have a direct Chevy example to compare, but they do have a 2009 Malibu LTZ 4-cyl listed, with the 6-speed auto, sunroof, leather, alloys, power seat, etc...all sorts of options a fairly basic Altima S wouldn't have, for $15,900...but it does have 41,000 miles.
The only brand-new LTZ they have listed has the 3.6 V-6. It has an MSRP of $30,545, but their internet price is $25,681. With leather, sunroof, alloys, and all that other nice stuff, that actually doesn't sound like a bad price...even though it's almost $10K more than the 4-cyl 2009.
I guess resale DID turn around and bite me on the butt when the car got totaled, and I only got $2000 for it. It was 10 years old and had around 150,000 miles. Okay, so maybe a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry would have fetched maybe $2,000 more, in the same condition? But the big question is...would a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord have cost $2,000 more in the first place? A 2000 Camry also does nothing for me, and while I like the 2000 Accord, both cars are really too small inside for my tastes.
Real unemployment is close to 20% - and in the middle of the worst job market since the Great Depression, the US government last year issued green cards to 1,131,000 LEGAL immigrants. This is one of the 4 highest numbers of legal immigrants per year on record. In order to reduce unemployment for Americans, there must be a moratorium on all LEGAL immigration for at least 5 years. At the same time, illegal aliens already hold an estimated 8 million jobs. If they were deported through enforcement, the labor pool would shrink and those jobs would go to Americans.
Yep, November 6, 1999 was the day I bought it. And November 18, 2009 was the day it got hit-and-runned. And yeah, it's scary how fast those 10 years went by!
Tha damage at this point is irreversable. Look at California. I can't believe I grew up there.
Yes, we should bring back to the USA some more manufacturing jobs. I hope people would show at the door -- I know the Mexicans will. Many from that country appear willing and able to work. Lately there are plenty of people holding union signs stating shame on you for blah, blah, blah -- while those working on the job seem to actually be contributing to the economy. Really doubt that all those workers, or should I say any of them are illegal immigrants. What they are is best described as workers. I was talking to a lady at an insurance sales office the other day. This lady was retired and came back to work. Seems the company has had nothing but trouble with the young people they hired. They spent their time doing the least as possible, and watching the clock. Service to customer meant little to them.
There is a possibility of an inflationary depression, with a more troublesome possible collapse for the US dollar, should America fail to be able to service its debt. At which point we have chaos!
Would this be similar to what happened to Weimar Germany during the 1920s? We saw what that led to!
You mean it gets worse? :confuse: :P
Both companies I hate and earned their spot on my "black list."
Also on my "Black List," are:
1) AT&T
2) GM (for taking bailouts and generally getting poor reliability reviews over the years)
3) Best Buy
4) Any bank or institution involved with taking bailout money
5) Any government official or politician that voted for bailouts
6) Any government official or politician that thinks UNCONSTITUTIONAL video cameras make for good traffic enforcement of red lights or speeding.
7) Santee (SD County Sheriffs)
8) La Mesa PD
9) California Highway Patrol
10) Bristol West Insurance, Eastwood Insurance Agents, Coast National Insurance (underwriter) - funny, google Coast National Insurance and the 2nd hit is someone with similar complaints to mine about this company.
Companies that used to be on my black list but I've already thrown a party celebrating their demise:
1) Circuit City (good riddens)
2) All companies listed above that were bailed out (2 X for Chrysler)
Our brilliant politicians eliminated the Glass Stegall Act in '99 --- And here we are today.
My favorite choice domestic, at this time, is Ford. The Corvette is hot, but I am not so sure about GM, as over the years I had problems. And the car sets a bit too low - lower than a Miata. It appears that Chrysler is in some strange limbo -- nothing new? The Fiat/Chrysler deal seems rather odd. I liked the looks of some of the older Fiat sports cars and Alfa Romeo, but there ain't much they offer today. Unless something interesting comes along the Fiat/Alfa/Chrysler alliance seems useless to me -- what am I missing? No chance for a Challenger put on a diet, shrunk on down a bit, and adding a good stick to a V6, is there? Guess the last company making any sense in America is Ford. Fusion sedan and Mustang seem like a good enough deal, with the Taurus OK, should you want for super-sized FWD.
I recall seeing Weimar money printed "500 Million Marks."
I can't see how there won't be inflation at some time - but it won't be because of increasing payrolls or discretionary income.
I was totally turned off by a recent model Mustang I rented. I think it was a 2008 model. It had the obnoxiously loud, unrefined, gas guzzling V6, and to top it off, it was slow and gutless.
Also, the body panel gaps were ridiculously bad and the gas tank lid (the sheet metal part) didn't fit the car correctly and exhibited poor fit and finish and quality control on Ford's part. The handling wasn't even what I would consider "average" (granted, rental company tires are probably designed more for longevity than handling). Still, I'd give the handling a 4 out of 10. The interior had too much cheap hard plastics.
Seriously, the V6 Mustang makes my old 2003 Accord Coupe V6 look like an M5 on the road. The FWD Accord would smoke that RWD Mustang on any race track, drag strip, or any other road known to man.
I have the 2007 Accord, and it is said to be better than the current Accord for handling. Honda Accord and Civic are moving the wrong direction in respect to handling. And Accord is getting larger - fatter. Sorry to see that.
I am leery of electric assist steering, though Mazda3 is said to be good. I test drove a used BMW Z4 and it was OK, but I think still a bit hyper steering and center was a little effort I thought, with some drift and correct required.
I saw something at Seaside, CA, which made me stop and get out of the car to see a bit closer --- there before my eyes was a four door 911, for something like a hundred grand. First it was an SUV and now a sedan -- so sad, so sad. Recall a time when Porsche was a sports car, and Cadillac was a luxury car. Escalade, oh really - how about a Tahoe with bling-bling? Recall a beautiful Charger car by Dodge, and now we have ??? Have they no shame? Next up are Porsche trucks.
1) Circuit City (good riddens)
2) All companies listed above that were bailed out (2 X for Chrysler)
Im confused, according to your criteria for being "blacklisted", chrysler should have already been on the list BEFORE you bought your neon :confuse:
If you are behind a V-6 sedan and the V-6 is a red emblem, that means it's a six speed. Other than the two we had here forever I think I've seen one other on the road.
Just don't act too anxious!
I was too young and dumb to have figured out Chrysler was a sham and a scam back then.
I fell for the "Its different this time, we are new and improved, we aren't the same as before," marketing campaign from Chrysler. (Doesn't that sound familiar from Ford and GM right now? Deja Vu)
The Neon is why Chrysler was blacklisted, and I still maintain it is that model that is the single biggest reason and factor in Chrysler's demise today and recently. Customers that owned that car will never go back. Not only that, but friends of mine that knew me when I owned it, and knew how often it was in the shop, will likely never go to Chrysler for a vehicle.
I'm surprised the 6-speed V6 Accord sedans never caught on. They are quite aggressive drivers actually, although more straightline "muscle car" (yes, they pull like a V8 with a cool exhaust note to boot) than sports sedan a la Infiniti G or BMW 3. In 2004 the Coupe version actually smoked the (then) 5.7 litre GTO according to a MT comparo, which drove Government Motors to drop the 6.0 into the Goat for 2006.
If you find one, give it a test drive with an open mind. If you favor the zippy handling of a traditional Honda, you will be disappointed with the V6's added girth under the hood and torque steer from the increased lb/ft. But, get that puppy on a straight and hang on. :shades:
Good luck in finding one. I should have bought two (+ a last generation TL
As things currently are with Honda, I'll going to have to hang on to mine for a long time...
People kept asking for Honda to build these and they finally did only to find out that they didn't sell. We are the highest volume store in nine states and we sell a lot of cars but we couldn't sell those.
We started out with two of them and a year later we still had them. Thankfully another store requested a dealer trade for one of them
" Hey, I see you have a silver 6 speed Accord...any chance you'll trade for an AT?"
" Hmmm let me think.....well....O,K."
The other one eventually sold.
They still build coupe 6 speeds and we sell maybe two a year.
I think it was '06. That must of made a noticeable difference.
Hey! Don't go teasing me, fella! :P
There are actually a few within 75 miles of here that I found with Autotrader but they want silly money for them.
Maybe they sold better in other parts of the country.
Around here we have lots of traffic and lots of hills. Most people hate sticks here.
Then,they couldn't have sold that well elsewhere or they would still be making them.
Honda has now killed off 5 speeds in EX leather Accords and I can't blame them.
IUn the last ten years I think I've sold two 5 speed Accords.
As used cars, they sit and sit.
It's been quite some time that sticks in Accord haven't been popular. When I bought the 00 they had to get it from 50 miles away and I had my choice of only two colors.
Back when i bought the 85 the majority of Accords were 5 speeds.
Oh yeah? You might want to ask owners of V6 '07 Camrys and Honda Odysseys of ANY vintage...just check out the owner forums on Edmunds, particularly for the Odysseys.
I'm not saying domestics don't have problems...what I am saying is that imports do, despite what so many people (yawn) say.
Bill
Regards,
OW
Bill
I sat in one of those Sonatas at the DC auto show, and I don't remember it being all that hard to get into and out of. I think that rear door might look worse than it really is. While the roofline does slope downward, the beltline kicks upward and it has a high sill, so that might create an optical illusion that makes the door look lower than it is. Plus, the Sonata is pretty tall, as most cars are these days.
Would a '55-57 Chevy really be that hard to get in and out of? Their back doors were pretty upright, with fairly square windows, with only a slight slope towards the rear. They had the quarter window in the C-pillar, as well, so the upper window line in the back door didn't have to sweep down to the beltline.
One thing though, that makes that '56 Chevy look like it would be a bit hard to get in and out of, is that the door is fairly small. With newer cars, when you open the back door, it pretty much exposes the whole back seat area, so you can just open the door, turn,and get out. With those older cars, the seat tended to be further back in relation to the door, so often you'd have to lean forward a bit to get out. Most newer cars would probably have a back door with an opening that cuts back far enough to contain that stationary window on the '56 Chevy.
At least, with the 4-door sedan. Now the 4-door hardtop, that's a different story! I imagine you had to duck getting in and out of the back seat of those things!
I think the Packard sedans of the mid'50's were worse in this regard...they had no small quarter windows in the body behind the rear doors...just that the door sloped WAAAYYYY down in the back. An old friend had a couple '56 sedans and I'd always crack my (big) head when climbing in the back a couple decades ago.
Bill
Bill
Consumer Reports adds six cars to Top Picks list, touts diversity
Where are the American cars? Second rate at best.
Regards,
OW
I see their pick of the Prius is a car under a cloud of suspicion for brake safety. And we know about what CR themselves have said about the Lexus SUV.
Do you ever remember a manufacturer besides Toyota, being urged to discontinue sales of a model for safety purposes? Or how about truck frames rusting in two on trucks ten years old or less? I personally believe there is more than 'thick floor mats' to what's going on at Toyota, and apparently so does the U.S. government by their fine. And I think anybody who thinks all this has anything to do with GM being controlled by the government, has to ask themselves if that were the case, why were Toyota and other foreign manufacturers allowed to participate in "Cash for Clunkers"? Toyota (unfortunately) mopped the floor with the Big Three in that government-sponsored debacle.
And...I know you aren't referring to CR's reliability ratings, but I think one does have to ask, is surveying only paid subscribers of a particular magazine really a random sample?
I think recalls and quality issues from foreign manufacturers have long been relegated to 'page 7' if at all, while Big Three issues always warranted headlines...until Toyota's many travails of late.
Bill