What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

snakeweasel · May 2007

But...when you sit there and think rationally, the Fit is twice the car for nearly the same price.

One question. Why would I spend even a dime more for a car thats twice as big that doesn't save me any money when I won't use the extra space?

I am considering the Smart as my car (the wife would have a mid sized sedan) that would mainly be used for commuting and running errands. I cannot think of the last time doing something like that I needed more room than the Smart has. So why spend more to get more when I never will need more?

snakeweasel · May 2007

I am not that sure about that. A stick is a nightmare for my commute and shaving 3 seconds is pretty meaningless when traffic under these conditions rarely out accelerates what a Smart will do.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2007

Why would I spend even a dime more for a car thats twice as big that doesn't save me any money when I won't use the extra space?

If you buy a Smart, you'll probably have the value of a used Daewoo. Not such a good idea. If you have a Honda Fit, you can always sell it for a good price.

MrShiftright
visiting host

snakeweasel · May 2007

First off making a statement of the resale value of a make thats not even on the market yet is pure speculation.

Secondly resale value of every car I get rid of is next to nothing as the best economic sense is to keep a car until the wheels fall off. So if you're looking at the best financial choice between the two buy the Smart and keep it.

w9cw · May 2007

A forgotten car in the USA, but extraordinarily popular in Europe, was the Simca 1100, introduced in the USA in 1969 (I believe) as the Simca 1204 due to the increased engine displacement. Front wheel drive, cavernous storage with its hatchback design, excellent seats and ride in the French tradition, and a transverse OHV 4-cylinder with a single barrel Solex carb, and a 4-speed. It easily delivered 36+MPG on the highway.

I bought a new 1970 1204 in October 1970, and it was a daily driver until 1985, until the rust took its toll on the unibody. It had a torsion bar suspension, front and rear, with bunches of vertical wheel travel that provided excellent ride quality considering its small size.

Chrysler didn't know how to market this car in the USA, thus it failed after only a few years in this market. But, the 1100, and its variants, were a huge success throughout Europe.

Another small car available in the late '60s and early '70s was the Austin America - but, I won't go there!

Mr_Shiftright · May 2007

It's been on the market a long time in Europe snake. The Smart is an older design and so the used car values are pretty well established. It's like talking about the resale value of a Ford Focus or something like that, not so speculative really.

But I can't argue if you are planning to drive it until it drops many years hence---then resale is of no consequence, you're right.

PS: Gas mileage -- I had a Renault Dauphine with the special "economy carburetor" that you could buy from Renault--and it would put up amazing mileage....better than my 2006 subcompact. It was so much more refined than a VW bug, too. But alas, it was French....

MrShiftright
Visiting Host

snakeweasel · May 2007

While it has been on sale a long time in Europe that is Europe not here Stateside (I am presuming that most posters here are stateside), whats true in Europe may not be true in the US.

nippononly · May 2007

Bingo! That's what I meant. ;-)

And getting the SportKa here wouldn't be a bad thing either. I am rooting for the ForTwo!

It is SUCH a shame Mazda decided not to try to sell the new Mazda2 here. :-(

stever · May 2007

A forgotten car in the USA

I remember it well since I cut a Simca body in half with a sabre saw back in 1970. The owner was another kid in high school and his daddy owned one of the dealerships. He wanted to chop the ride but I think it wound up at the dump.

I bet the Smart Roadster is holding resale value pretty well.

plekto · May 2007

If I could get a Smart Roadster, I'd take one over the FourTwo in a second. No, half a second.

Why is it that the coolest cars in the world can be had all over the damn planet and not here in the U.S. where we have more drivers and more miles of road than anyplace else on the planet?

And Don't even get me started on how the Ariel Atom is street legal in the U.K. and not in the U.S. If there ever was a car that I actually would do almost anything to drive, this is it without a doubt.

bumpy · May 2007

But the big deal... turbo. Nice. That means a chip and a kit might cost you a couple of grand and 5mpg or so, but 100hp with a stronger boost level will be easily doable (evil grin).

I don't know about that. The pictures I've seen suggest the turbo is not intercooled, which puts a rather low cap on how much boost it can run.

qbrozen · May 2007

well, of course everyone's preferences are different. I have very little traffic on my commute.

qbrozen · May 2007

If I could get a Smart Roadster, I'd take one over the FourTwo in a second. No, half a second.

Funny. I was just thinking the same thing last night while talking with my wife about a roadster for her.

qbrozen · May 2007

but if there is room somewhere, you could add one.

british_rover · May 2007

Our convulted emissions and safety regulations make it much to costly for many cars to be imported here. If a small to midsized company spent all the money to federalize one of their cars and then it flopped in the US it could mean the end of their company.

qbrozen · May 2007

absolutely.

we can always hope, however, that the coupe does well and they decide to give us the roadster.

BUT, i bet that comes AFTER a 4-door.

kyfdx · May 2007

Associated Press article

United Auto Group Inc., the nation's second largest auto retailer, Wednesday said that in just over five weeks it has received $99 deposits from 12,600 people eager to be among the first buyers of DaimlerChrysler AG's two-seat Smart mini car when it hits U.S. showrooms in 2008..more

qbrozen · May 2007

that's a great response!

too bad most of those people have probably never seen one. I bet at least half don't follow through with the purchase.

british_rover · May 2007

$99?????

I never take less then 500 dollars for any car and if it is being ordered I want 2,000 dollars. Man are they weak.

kyfdx · May 2007

Probably way more than half...

But, I think it's a good indicator that there is some genuine interest..

It doesn't matter that the savings from 35 MPG to 50 MPG is small.. most people don't do the math...

That's why they'll take a $10K hit on trading in an SUV to save $100/mo. on fuel.. :surprise:

Mr_Shiftright · May 2007

That's certainly the challenge for Smart in America--they'll need to sell in volume to make any money and so far all that car has done is lose money throughout the world. Seems like they have a little spurt of sales in a country and then it goes flat. As one might expect from any novelty item.

But maybe low overhead and very lean marketing and service operations can combat this historical trend. Smart is already so heavily invested, most of the money has been spent already to develop it.

kyfdx · May 2007

$99 just to get on a waiting list..

Not really the same as taking a deposit on a car that you have on the way...

bumpy · May 2007

Ah, but smart sold off the design and tooling for the Roadster to some English outfit that wants to revive it as an AC.

qbrozen · May 2007

hahaha. really? you got an article on that? geesh. that would be a real stretch for an AC. I mean, whimpy .. ok. But tall and boxy?

bumpy · May 2007

Project Kimber

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/07092006/45/smart-roadster-returns-ac-0.html

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/12/08/project-kimber-ac-smart-roadster-takes-shape/-

stever · May 2007

it's a good indicator that there is some genuine interest..

If the deposit rules permitted, half of those deposit holders would flip their right to purchase on eBay. You know a bunch hope to buy in at MSRP and flip them upon delivery.

british_rover · May 2007

Yeah I heard the same thing.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2007

Price looks good--it can compete with the Mini and VW turbo convertibles at that price point.

MrShiftright
Visiting Host

ateixeira · May 2007

One question. Why would I spend even a dime more for a car thats twice as big that doesn't save me any money when I won't use the extra space?

I am considering the Smart as my car (the wife would have a mid sized sedan) that would mainly be used for commuting and running errands. I cannot think of the last time doing something like that I needed more room than the Smart has. So why spend more to get more when I never will need more?

Trust me, there will be times when you will wish you had more space.

This is coming from someone who has a small 2 seater as a commuter car, in my case a Miata.

First off, I can't even imagine getting by with only a Miata, so I own 2 cars, the other is a Forester.

With that in mind, I try to take the Miata whenever I can, as often as possible. Even with that strategy, the Miata accumulates 6k miles/year, and the Forester 9k miles/year. That's odd because the Miata is my daily driver, but that's what I've observed.

Examples - have to carry equipment to or from work, want to drive somewhere for lunch with friends, pick someone up from the airport, foul weather (hopefully a Smart would be OK in the snow).

Point is, quite often I've come across situations where the Miata is not big enough for my needs, including many unforeseen situations.

I think a Smart ForTwo is really an ideal car for a low-speed city commute, and yes the mileage will be excellent, but just make sure you have a Plan B, maybe an old beater that is a lot more practical, because I'm telling you from experience, there will be times when you will need it.

At a minimum, prepare your wife to share her car often. Plan on that car getting the majority of miles, too, and by a wide margin. Don't lease that sedan with a limit on the miles, for instance.

Like I said, I'd be interested in a Smart Roadster, but I would certainly also keep a 2nd car that was more practical. This is from experience.

Cheers. :shades:

jlawrence01 · May 2007

The only people that I knew who were happy with the Geo Metro were the contract IS (computer) people who would be reimbursed by the mile. They would buy them off of a rental fleet for a song with 20k miles and drive them until they fell apart at 150-200k miles ... and be reimbursed $0.40-0.50 per mile.

I knew a couple of guys who were getting $15-20k/yr in mileage reimbursement ...

ateixeira · May 2007

I owned a 1986 Chevy Sprint while in college, a cheap commuter for a broke student.

It was a tin can, sure, but I had it during Desert Storm, just when gas prices spiked. I didn't mind getting 45-50mpg one bit.

My wife (girl friend at the time) just didn't feel safe in it so she pressured me to sell it ASAP. Once I did gas prices stabilized. Lucky timing. :shades:

bumpy · May 2007

I did some more digging around...

The Japanese-built Mitsubishi I3 engine has an air-air intercooler behind the tranny, and the turbocharger itself is water-cooled. It has intake VVT, a 10:1 compression ratio (the n/a version is 11.5:1) and a wastegate running half a bar of boost. The Brabus version gets 98 hp and 104 ft-lb.

The transmission is set up as a computer-operated manual with a neutral position, and an optional automatic mode. The gas pedal also has a kickdown that lets you double-hop the gears in either mode. The fuel tank is about 9 gallons. And there is also the spiffy panorama roof.

msindallas · May 2007

For the stats, here's another happy Geo Metro customer.

Bought the car cheap, for $7,200 as a college student, drove it for 90,000 miles and traded it in for $1,000 after 9 years. Used to get 47/54mpg (5-speed), never got reimbursed from anybody. Repairs (out of scheduled maintenance) - had to replace muffler at 70Kmiles.

Never had a problem when the hwy speed limit was 55mph. When it went upto 70, the car would shake at 75mph or above. But then I traded it in.

Gotta share a story - I got a speeding ticket once in that Metro - on a state Hwy - accused of going 87 in a 55 mph zone. I challenged the ticket in court. The constable attended on the hearing date. When the judge asked what I had to say, I produced the key, and invited the constable to drive the car on any highway at 87mph. My argument was that the car cannot be driven at more than 75. The judge laughed and dismissed the case - Yay!!!!

Mr_Shiftright · May 2007

It a lot easier to look at the empty seats behind you and say "I don't need that space today" then look at no seats behind you and say "where are we going to put the items we just bought?"

My old Porsche 914 had no rear seat but god bless that little car, it had TWO trunks!

MrShiftright
Visiting Host

explorerx4 · May 2007

great post!

bumpy · May 2007

look at no seats behind you and say "where are we going to put the items we just bought?"

Put them here:

You won't get a 52" plasma-screen TV in there, but you're not bringing that home in a Corolla either.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2007

That's a might dinky space for anything "real". Might as well put that pink box on your lap. :P

MrShiftright
Visiting Host

nippononly · May 2007

This thing just looks better and better all the time! Look at that panorama roof! :-)

I might be interested in the Brabus model if they can hold it to $15-16K - it will have suspension mods that will be well worth the money I think, although even the base versions are supposed to handle very well, belying what you might think intuitively by looking at the car.

andre1969 · May 2007

That's a might dinky space for anything "real". Might as well put that pink box on your lap.

Actually, that spot behind the rear seats looks pretty roomy to me. Of course, it's hard to tell just from a picture. Who knows how big that pink 6-pack of bottles really is? Kinda those old commercials where they'd put Dustin Hoffman in a VW to make it look big!

snakeweasel · May 2007

This is true, I live in the Chicago metro area and traffic can be a nightmare at times. On my 9.8 mile commute (which takes 35-40 minutes) I have one light that has at least a half mile back up and two lights where the backup can be a mile long. Yeah my commute stinks.

snakeweasel · May 2007

Trust me, there will be times when you will wish you had more space.

I have more space now and I have never needed it.

First off, I can't even imagine getting by with only a Miata, so I own 2 cars, the other is a Forester.

I have never advocated a Smart as an only car, I have always said it would be a perfect second commuter car. Case in point the wife and I might have a mid sized sedan for her and a Smart for me. When a large car is needed we use hers, when its not I can use the Smart.

We own two cars because we need two cars, each of us needs to get to work. However we don't need two large cars.

At a minimum, prepare your wife to share her car often. Plan on that car getting the majority of miles, too, and by a wide margin.

To be honest I can count on the fingers of one hand of a high school shop teacher the number of times in the last year I had someone in the back seat when I was driving or needed to carry more than a small light load in the past year.

Examples - have to carry equipment to or from work,

I am an accountant, most that that have had to carry for work could fit into a briefcase.

snakeweasel · May 2007

I don't know, looks like it will fit a weeks worth of groceries for me and she who must be obeyed. Looks like the golf clubs will fit back there. Looks like the occasional plants the the wife gets will fit back there. Looks like the great big bag of dog food I buy for that little dog will fit in there fine.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2007

Seriously doubt it. You'd be better off buying a used meter maid cart I think. Way cheaper than a Smart and equally stylish :P

MrShiftright
Visiting Host

snakeweasel · May 2007

Why do you doubt it? Most of what I mentioned should fit into the back of a Smart. Seriously most of what I mentioned would fit into the cargo net of my wagon, and the back of the Smart should be bigger than that.

andre1969 · May 2007

on the Smart, and its luggage capacity is rated at 260 liters. That's about 9.2 cubic feet. Now I'm sure that a lot of that is the area above the level of the seatback, which is akin to counting the area under the back window of a regular sedan or coupe-type vehicle, and NOT an area where you want to try squeezing golf clubs, grocery bags, or anything else that could easily topple if you had to brake too hard.

The area behind the back seat of a Scion xA is optimistically rated at 12 cubic feet, but to me the Smart looks bigger than that, probably because of the height. But like I said earlier, it's difficult to judge true scale from a photograph.

jlawrence01 · May 2007

There is no way that you are going to fit a set of golf clubs in a Smart car unless you are gong to put a rack on the top of the vehicle. Or unless you are going to put them on a front seat. You have a little space behind the front seats where you might be able to stick a very thin briefcase if you are lucky.

A week's worth of groceries ... only if your passender is going to carry the groceries on her lap.

With as many Smart cars floating aroung the Chicago area ...

I think that there are going to be some really surprised people when the vehicles show up and they finally get to drive them. I driven one once and it is kind of a fun vehicle BUT it is not at all practical.

bumpy · May 2007

That's about 9.2 cubic feet. Now I'm sure that a lot of that is the area above the level of the seatback

Naah, it's about 12 cubic feet going all the way to the roof.

akveevo · May 2007

That's funny. People think that the Chevy Aveo is small......The Honda FIT is by all means ugly. I don't know what the heck Honda was thinking......people are really eating up those Scions that look like an extra large Happy Meal Box on wheels down here in Orlando, FL. It must be the lack of their parents taking them to McDonalds as a child.

british_rover · May 2007

One of my clients has a Smart car and there is no way you are getting a set of golf clubs in the back. You can probably get a weeks worth of groceries if you are a two family household and you don't eat too much.

qbrozen · May 2007

wow! I was expecting those pics at all. When someone first mentioned it, I pictured the smart2 with the top chopped. Those pics (drawings?) are of a NICE LOOKING car. I would LOVE to be able to get something like that at the projected price!

What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles