GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda...Who will sell you your next car?

andre1969 · March 2006

definitely have a fiercely loyal following. However, I've always been a bit leery of them too, simply because I've known enough people that have had problems with them. Especially in the 1990s, when they did all those Ford collaborations. I knew a guy who had a 1994 Ford Probe, which was basically a Mazda 626/MX-6 platform with some Ford tinkering. I remember the guy telling me that the dealership told him, when he took it in for servicing, that the Probe was the most expensive Ford-badged car of the time when it came to repairs/maintenance, because of all the Mazda componentry.

He went through two transmissions on it, but I think the tranny was actually a Ford component! (4-speed automatic). I also knew a guy with a 1995 Mazda 626 that had the tranny fail. Exact same component, I think. Very expensive, as well.

allen5h · March 2006

I walked into a Pontiac dealership in 1997 to test drive a Sunfire. When I told them that I cannot buy today because I still need to test drive the Corolla and Civic they told me that they will let me factory order any Sunfire any way that I want it for $50 over invoice plus any rebates, incentives, etc... that are applicable at the time of delivery.
I thought that was such a great deal that I signed on the dotted line.
My factory ordered car arrived some time later and when I picked it up and flipped it over the dang thing had a sticker that read HECHO EN MEXICO! When I signed on the dotted line I was not anal retentive about it being made in America; but a low wage country like Mexico?
This car was nothing but a pure lemon. When I finally got rid of this nightmare it had 56k miles and lots and lots of repairs. Like $1,300 (out of my pocket) for a new moonroof mechanism. An Oil pump, two ignition coils, stereo, rack n pinion steering gearbox, catalytic converter, and on and on and on. Every repair took the dealer at least three attempts to fix anything, and they introduced other problems at the same time of the repairs. It was an endless cycle of breakdowns, tow trucks, appointments for repairs, and long waits in a laughable sardine can sized room packed with other Pontiac customers. I was in the habit of checking under the hood after every repair attempt looking for bolts and washers that Mr. Goodwrench left out. It seems that my whole life revolved around the Pontiac dealership at times.
Maybe it would be better if the owner of this Pontiac dealership was to spend less money on his multi-room mansions that he builds for himself every three years and more money in his Pontiac dealership? Just a thought.
By the time I got rid of this GM product (remember, it had 56k miles) it was stalling on the highway every 20 minutes, the power steering fluid was leaking on a hot radiator hose and the resulting (carcinogenic?) fumes in the passenger compartment were suffocating me, it needed yet another rack n pinion steering gearbox, and the engine was at times making a horrendous screeching sound as if journal bearings where seizing or something. I was also keeping a dahon folding bicycle in the trunk just in case, and I tried not to drive too far from home so that I was always within pedaling distance of my apartment.
All the while throughout this ordeal the Pontiac dealer was "amending" existing work orders so as not to show that three attempts where made to fix anything. They told me that this paperwork is done this way because it is much easier and efficient - but the thruth is that they know not to generate all of these different work orders that prove that they are an icompetent service facility - better to show that all of these attempts to fix any one problem was one repair with only one work order.
My letters to Pontiac always came back with a form letter advising me to work to get these warranty problems resolved with the Pontiac dealership. The Pontiac dealership in turn told me that they will be more than happy to work something out about this defective product if I can get GM to do something for me. When I asked the Pontiac dealer who the regional factory rep for Pontiac was they told me that "these things are not handled this way." In other words, the Pontiac dealer did everything they could to see to it that I got stuck with this lemon.
My experience with my new 20001 Honda Accord has been very different. No sooner do I drive my new Honda Accord home I get a letter in the mail - a form letter signed by the owner of the Honda dealership - advising me that at his dealership the customer does not put up with any headaches. If something is not right then I am to speak with him and he will make it right.
Now this is an example of a new car delalership owner who is NOT so engrossed in his mansion building that he forgets where his money is coming from.
The few warranty problems that I have had with my new Honda purchase where fixed at the very first attempt to fix them. I am totally amazed that they do not break anything else when they go about fixing warranty problems or performing regular maintenance. (The Pontiac dealer led me to believe that all service departments are like that.) At 95k miles it is still going strong with no out of pocket repairs (only maintenance items like new brake linings, brake fluid flush, manual gearbox fluid change, new tires, spin balancing, etc.). The two service writers at the Honda service department today are the same two people in 2001 when I purchased my New Honda. At the Pontiac dealership what they had was a revolving door of personnel.
Last week a small decal that is glued to the driver side door that envelopes the security red blinking LED came off so I glued it back on with super glue. Last year the clutch pedal's return spring broke, so I replaced it. Maybe two years ago the clock's light bulb went dead, so I replaced it. I can live with a car that requires these simple do it yourself repairs.
I do not pretend to be an authoritative source as far as which manufacturer has the best product quality. I choose not to get into any slipery slope (read pissing contests) with people over product quality. I do not pay any attention to J D Powers or what Edmunds.com or Car and Driver are writing about the new vehicles. I am no different than most other folks whose past life experiences help shape and mold the person that they are today, and today my preferences for consideration for a new car purchase has to include Honda and Acura at the very top of my list.
If the new Cadilacs truly are great products that are just as good as any other luxury brand and the Cadilac service departments are the greatest things since sliced bread then I will never know because I will never purchase a new Cadilac.
Who could blame me?
But I have other reasons not to buy GM products. I happen to know the couple who own the local Avis rent a car agency in town. Avis rents mostly GM products. This couple tell me that they send their GM rental products to their respective GM dealership for repairs only to get swindled out of their money because these GM dealerships never fix anything.
All that I have written about GM service departments may not be fair because it is not based on a randomized statistical sampling of service at all GM dealerships - and there are thousands of GM dealerships in America - but as far as life experiences go, these are the only facts that I have to go by.

jlawrence01 · March 2006

I had 192k miles on my 1983 Plymouth Reliant in 2003 when the steering rods rusted out and I decided to sell it to my mechanic. The car was a good ride that averaged 26-28 mpg and was fairly reliable.

Most of the problems with the vehicle were the usual - valce cover gaskets, CV boots, mufflers, etc. What went wrong with the car generally went wrong over and over again. The rest of the stuff ean pretty well. I had very FEW breakdowns.

My BIGGEST problem was finding repair shops that could get the vehicle fixed CORRECTLY. And some C-P dealers were as bad as the independent shops I tried out.

My parents Dodge Aries did not do as well and seened very underpowered.

The Reliant was a serious improvement over my Chevette **OR** the Toyota Corona station wago that I drove in college.

bumpy · March 2006

GM could have gotten 6-passenger seating out of its X-bodies, but instead they chose to eliminate the center seatbelt, and on bench seat models they put a little plastic storage bin where the center spot would have been on the bottom cushion, while the backrest looked like it was designed for 3-across seating.

Storage bin? My old POS Citation didn't have any storage bin in the seat.

grbeck · March 2006

The Mazda3 is a sharp car...especially the five-door model. Too bad that Ford decided that we didn't need the new Focus based on this platform. Just another reason why Dearborn is in big trouble.

grbeck · March 2006

andre: They were certainly less troubleprone than GM's X-bodies, and were more space-efficient and economical than Ford's Fairmont/Zephyr, which were its closest Dearborn competition, until the underwhelming Tempo/Topaz came out.

Wouldn't you say that the Fairmont/Zephyr twins were probably the best bet for longevity, even if they were considered "outdated" at that time?

sjhooper · March 2006

I purchased a VW Beetle in 72. It was a piece of junk - therefore I will never look at another German car. I purchase a Nissan Datsun in 76. I came from the factory with rust. Therefore I will never drive another Asian vehicle. I purchased a Chevrolet Vega at the end of the model run and had surprisingly good luck. Therefore - I have driven nothing but Chevrolet since. I'm sure that this all makes alot of good common sense to you.

imidazol97 · March 2006

Used to work with a lady who drove a Fairmont. She would occasionally drive her Jaguar but when the weather was bad that Fairmont kept on ticking. She'd had it since it was new, no wax jobs. Last time I stopped by it was in parked in her turnaround. They always impressed me the same as the original Falcons did. Heavy and slow.

I'd forgotten the Zephyr was the Mercury version. So the Lincoln version of the Focus is now using the Zephyr name.

nvbanker · March 2006

>So the Lincoln version of the Focus is now using the Zephyr name.

Ahem: That's a Mazda 6 under that Lincoln, thank you very much! :sick:

harrychezt · March 2006

because, for us, the thing was a little more "rigid"(mazda3) in handling(I guess sporty?). We kind of like the handling of the tC, but it does not feel as "rigid" over bumps,etc..
Took it)mazda3) around some back road curves, and the brakes did not feel as solid as the tC. NVH: no comparison.
We like the Mazda3 Looks better than the tC. No doubt about it.
But, when we got one loaded like the Scion( sunroof, cruise, abs,etc....) it was 19K+(this was september 2005, and for the Ford Focus engine? Correct? I think it was 150-160HP, or no? I know they recently bumped up the base model to 150 from what 140+?).
The base model vs tC back then was not much of comparison, to us(160HP, vs 142? something like this).
Similar mpg for automatic.
17,199 for tC, or 19,500 for the model that closely matched tC in content and HP, at the time.

Hmmmmmm.....we took the tC. BTW, only issue was passenger wiper arm blade got stuck and they fixed it.
nearing 50K miles in 18+ months, 31-34MPG hwy,depends if ya lead foot the thing, or not.
0-60 around 8 seconds(some mags say 8.2 with the automatic, and 7.7 with manual).
Not bad.
has that synchronized 3rd gear deal, you in 4th on hwy, and need a quick "boost"(to drop down a gear for passing?)... bump it over to 3....and away ya go

Maybe the new Mazda3, the base, with 150HP, and less expensive, might be enough now to get us to look down the road. never know.

As for reliability. My mother in law still has her 1997 protege dx....80K miles.
Still running strong. only issue was some sort of gear shift lock broke. they had AAA tow it, and it was 75 dollars to fix(my father in law was bashing Mazda, because e I suggested it, said' thing only lasts 80K and breaks? probably be 3K for a tranny"... then when it came back that it was only a lock that needed fixed, for 75 dollars, never heard a peep again from him about foreign cars being rotten,etc

PS: his 1999 Jeep Laredo, correct? He got a new tranny for over 3K, last march, 05....becuase he got it used, and it was only 1 year "old" to him, and just hit 107,000 miles. Told him maybe he should get a Suzuki or Mazda. It costs less to fix

LOL. he did not respond. Anything can break down. Out 01 tibby had tranny issues at 103,000 ).

As for foreign vs domestic:
We have had both, and troubles with both: Chevy, Nissan, Hyundai, Scion: from extremely minor to serious.
We buy things that are to our liking, and hopefully under 20(on sale, or regular msrp).
I just do not really want to spend 20K on say, HHR, which we liked(style wise), but has zero head, shoulder, or rear leg room,(no head room with sunroof to speak of). It was tolerable for 0-60, and the seats were better than in the Caliber, and almost on par of the PT's leather seats.
If GM fixes these width, height, length issues I mentioned, we may return for a possible purchase.
Same for Caliber: good at 16K, but go up to the SXT to get sunroof,etc, nearly 20K?
No thank you.

Same for Civic..... nearly 20K for sunroof/crusie/automatic? MPG is good.... but I can live with the tC for 2,400 less(use that savings for gas, and have 20 more HP, too).

Anyhow, take care, not offense.

andre1969 · March 2006

Bumpy, I did a little searching, and it looks like the storage bin was added in 1981. It's shown in the lower right corner of this brochure page.

Here's the bench seat of the 1980 Citation. Here it looks like they used a base cushion that could hold 3 across, but then put bucket backrests on and only gave it seatbelts for two.

I wonder why they didn't just go ahead and offer 6-passenger seating? These cars were as wide inside as the Celebrity, which was based on it. And about as wide inside as a Nova, Aspen/Volare, Fairmont/Zephyr, etc, but without the driveshaft/tranny hump that those RWD cars would have to contend with.

andre1969 · March 2006

Wouldn't you say that the Fairmont/Zephyr twins were probably the best bet for longevity, even if they were considered "outdated" at that time?

Yeah, I'd say the Fox-cars were probably the most durable and reliable compacts of the early 80's. And I think the main reason that they were considered outdated is simply their exterior size. They served well for a few more years as midsized cars, with the '81-82 Granada and the '83-86 Marquis/LTD. And the T-bird/Cougar used the platform through 1988, and the Mustang carried it on through 2004, so it definitely had some life left in it!

The Fairmont made perfect sense in 1978, when that was the size of your typical compact car. Also, around that time, what was considered a compact and what was considered a midsized really got muddled, as GM downsized their cars.

By around 1981 though, I'm guessing most people associated a compact car with something Citation or Aries/Reliant-sized, while a Fairmont, which was at leat a foot and a half longer, was just thought of as too big. Even if it didn't give up much in fuel economy, and really wasn't much heavier. It just LOOKED big.

My grandparents had an '81 Granada coupe with the 200 straight six, and an '85 LTD sedan with the 3.8 V-6. They never had any major catastrophes with either one, but they also traded pretty often. The LTD replaced the Granada, and then itself was replaced by an '89 Taurus. Granddad used to let me practice driving in the LTD when I had my learners. I also went to Florida with them one year, and they let me do a lot of the driving. IIRC, the LTD did overheat on the way down, and it was only about 2 years old at the time.

bumpy · March 2006

Okay, that's not the bench seat I had in mine (built in April 1979). The bottom is similar, but the seatback was one piece contoured for two seats and had some humps at the top instead of headrests. Maybe you had to order the cloth to get separate seatbacks?

[Edit: that's the coupe interior in the picture. You'd have to have separate seatbacks that could flip forward, so you could get in the back seat. Mine was the 5-dr hatchback.]

GM probably didn't offer 6-person seating because the manual Citations had a floor shifter.

andre1969 · March 2006

It's cut off a bit, but maybe it looked more like this? I just noticed that the other '80 Citation I posted was the club coupe model, which would have required separate folding seatbacks. This sedan looks 1-piece.

qbrozen · March 2006

Ahem: That's a Mazda 6 under that Lincoln, thank you very much! :sick:

Its the same platform as the Mazda6, but its not the Mazda6. Its quite a different car, as I understand it.

bumpy · March 2006

Yeah, that looks like it. You get a better view here. The only major options I remember on on the window sticker were the V6 and automatic. I think Grandpa spent his pocket change on the CB radio, rather than better seats and power gear.

perna · March 2006

No sooner do I drive my new Honda Accord home I get a letter in the mail - a form letter signed by the owner of the Honda dealership - advising me that at his dealership the customer does not put up with any headaches.

You know what's funny is I had a similar experience when I bought my Nissan Maxima.

When we bought my wife's Fords (she loves Ford!), our mailbox is the victim of a torrent of junk mail, advertising new Fords. They constantly want you to swap your car out for a new one.

With my Nissan, on the other hand, I get junk mail from them, all right. With coupons for service items such as brakes/oil/etc. (from Nissan itself, not my dealership). These are actually useful items, and I've used them before! I also received a call from Nissan corporate after I bought my car, thanking me for buying a Nissan and if I ever have any issues with my dealership, please give them a call.

Now, I've never actually had to call them, but it makes you feel good about the car you bought to get attention like that.

anythngbutgm · March 2006

Nice! My mom STILL gets those offers from the dealership she bought her car from.

Funny part is she bought the car in 1990 (91' 240SX HB) and at the moment it has 28x,000 miles on it.

nvbanker · March 2006

>Ahem: That's a Mazda 6 under that Lincoln, thank you very much!

Its the same platform as the Mazda6, but its not the Mazda6. Its quite a different car, as I understand it.

Oh, agreed, there is lots of good engineering in there for the Fusion, I was correcting someone who had said the platform was a Focus under there. I wasn't denigrating the car.

However - I don't like the Zephyr. Not just because it's so damn small, but I don't feel it has Lincoln quality - at least the Lincoln I am used to from the past. Prop rods to hold the hoods up belong on Hyundais & Kias, not Lincolns.

IMO, the Country Club division of Ford, is losing its luster fast. And I've been driving Lincolns for 15 years.

qbrozen · March 2006

ah, ok, i'm with ya now. I kinda think that poster meant to say Fusion ... maybe not.

i don't like the Zephyr either. I actually think it looks pretty good, but if I'm buying a FWD V6, it ain't gonna be a Lincoln.

nvbanker · March 2006

>i don't like the Zephyr either. I actually think it looks pretty good, but if I'm buying a FWD V6, it ain't gonna be a Lincoln.

Exactly~!

andre1969 · March 2006

I like the looks of the Zephyr, but I guess I just expect my Lincolns to be big and impressive and V8/RWD.

nvbanker · March 2006

>I like the looks of the Zephyr, but I guess I just expect my Lincolns to be big and impressive and V8/RWD.

PRECISELY!! I get that they want an entry level Lincoln for yuppie types - to compete with the 3-er. But all that the Zephyr has in common with the 3-er is size. The Lincoln LS WAS actually competition for the 5-er, but was never marketed effectively, and was over-engineered for the price I've heard. When it dies, Lincoln has no performance car. What happened to the Hot Rod Lincoln?

lemko · March 2006

I like the interior of the Zephyr. It has a little flavor of old-school 1960s Lincolns. It looks nicer in the lighter wood. Didn't know about the hood prop rod! Yuck!

andre1969 · March 2006

One thing us domestic car guys could always count on was counterbalanced hoods. If nothing else, it at least gave us ammunition when people would rag on how inferior our cars are to their Japanese competition, and how the domestics cut corners and costs, the prop rod was always one thing we could point to, to show the Japanese's own cost cutting.

Now, they've even taken that away from us!! Broke my heart when I saw that even the Dodge Charger has a hood prop!

snakeweasel · March 2006

What happened to the Hot Rod Lincoln?

All of a sudden a rod started knockin';
Down in the depths she started a rockin'.
I looked in the mirror and a red light was blinkin';
The cops was after my Hot Rod Lincoln.

FWIW the "Hot Rod Lincoln" is a modified '41 Zephyr with a '30 Model 'A' Body and a '39 Lincoln V-12.

dino001 · March 2006

Which is no wonder, because Mazda6 was also not so great. Even front collision had one poor rating (foot), which gave acceptable for overall front. But look at the side impact! Ouch.

Basically it is dead last in the midsize category, behind even 5+ years older Dodge Stratus :sick:

I think Mazda6 chassis is great for driveability, but it surely shows it is not up to the best for the side impact collision protection, which showed on the public's radar just couple of years ago with some TV reports.

baggs32 · March 2006

When we bought my wife's Fords (she loves Ford!), our mailbox is the victim of a torrent of junk mail, advertising new Fords. They constantly want you to swap your car out for a new one.

That's funny, I'm on my fourth Ford and don't get any mail like that. In fact, the only non-requested mail I get from Ford are coupons for service from the selling dealer like the one's you get for your Nissan. Same goes for my Mazda.

Our Honda was different. We never received anything but the monthly payment stub from Honda. Even the arrogant dealer ignored us.

fintail · March 2006

I signed up online for a Lexus IS info package back last summer...about once every few weeks now I get something from Lexus. I even got a 'pre-approval certificate' for the IS...oooh!

lemko · March 2006

...I own Cadillacs and get mail from Mercedes-Benz and Lexus in addition to the usual mail, (coupons, etc.) from the Cadillac dealer.

fintail · March 2006

Haha that reminds me...when I was about 12 I filled out some kind of magazine flyer for a Caddy brochure, and for the next 5 or so years I constantly got Caddy lease offers in the mail. I thought that was pretty cool.

snakeweasel · March 2006

My son did something like that for Lexus, but he was being a wise guy and put the dogs name on it. So occasionally the dog gets offers in the mail. One time even got one saying she was per-approved for a loan and invited her to come in to the dealership. Oh I was so tempted to walk in with that letter and the dog.

nvbanker · March 2006

Excellent info! Thanks.

fintail · March 2006

I always thought that pre-approval stuff involved some kind of soft hit on a credit file. But I guess not.

As a kid it was pretty cool to get such mail. Although, I share the same first name with my dad, so maybe they based it all on him.

lemko · March 2006

...that episode of "Married with Children" where Buck the dog got a credit card? A credit offer actually did come to my house with the cat's name on it! Weird!!!

snakeweasel · March 2006

I always thought that pre-approval stuff involved some kind of soft hit on a credit file. But I guess not.

Naw, you're not really pre-approved, its just a way to get you into the showroom. I mean how can they per-approve you without a SSN? Also I am pretty sure they cannot run a credit check without your ok.

fintail · March 2006

I think with a name and address they can do basic inquiries. I forget how it all works, but they have to be able to do something. Insurance companies use it.

dino001 · March 2006

So-called soft inquiry - for marketing purpose. Some creditors ask for people with certain general creditworthiness criteria.

But car dealers probably never bother with that - they need a name and address and tell you are approved up to whatever (just nobody said it will be 5.5% APR) to get you in the room.

exalteddragon1 · March 2006

LOL i remember that one!

Ha, remember the one were they went to England and Al stuck his feel in the river, all the fish came up!

Must be were all the British Auto Brands are buried

The same will happen to us unless we get our acts together. Someone has to confront the Health-[non-permissible content removed] Industry!

frieberg44 · March 2006

EASY solution to that: Buy a superior car, either a HONDA ACCORD or a TOYOTA CAMRY. After all, a Ford is a Ford...the name goes ON before the quality goes IN.

exalteddragon1 · March 2006

Last I saw in C&D (a mag many ppl here love) the fusion beat the Camry and was second only to the accord.

I do not think the Japanese cars are superrior. The Fusion can dance with them any day.

nippononly · March 2006

I think frieberg was referring to the IIHS crash tests. The Fusion did pretty badly for such a new model. But then of course, the models that did really well cost more than $30 grand - the Lexus IS and the BMW 3-series.

Maybe Lexus will sell me my next new car - I like the look of that IS250, and I just noticed it gets 24/32 EPA. :-)

anythngbutgm · March 2006

I've also read that the 3.0l inline six is coming back into the mix. Apparently, Toyo understands the disappointment from fans for abandoning the motor and will bring it back. Supposedly, there will be an IS 250,300 and 350. And of course, the rumored M3 competitor IS500.

I'll try and dig up the source.

dino001 · March 2006

Well, Nippon - you forgot Legacy, gold pick for midsize. Starting what $22K on sticker? Did you do it on purpose

nippononly · March 2006

You sure that is not the new 3.0 V-6 from the GS300? The GS is going to become the GS350 shortly. The IS may use that engine thereafter. The old inline six is WAY too smoggy to be put back into use with today's emissions standards.

dino: I haven't forgotten. One or two things about the Legacy still bug me, like frameless windows. But I also avoid turbos as a rule, and the base 2.5 has less power and worse fuel economy than the IS250. Not to mention I like the looks of the IS better, and wow! How sweet it is inside. Worth the extra money, I think. The Legacy SE is the runner-up, and it's not like I am going to be in the market soon. Maybe by that time Toyota will have seen the error of its ways, and there will be a hatchback version of the IS again. A guy can dream, can't he??!! :-P

dino001 · March 2006

Hatchback IS would be for me, too but only with manual (no way with Lexus, I know). But, you should know better not to even compare Legacy to Lexus - different price range and market segment.

The original comment was about crashworthiness, which looks like Subaru simply aced this time and pulled ahead of some even more expensive croud. While it is basically given (or expected) to get minimum Silver best pick for $35K or more (yet safety "buff" Volvo did not), but no other $20-25K car can even touch Legacy in terms of occupant crash safety.

As Iaccocca reportedly said "safety doe not sell", not in "economy-oriented" segments. People would rather get power locks or $700 stereo, or leather than side impact airbags, ABS, or stability control (that's the only objection to Subaru - no SC of any kind in low trims, but with AWD there is some mitigation to that).

Toyota well knows it and most Camrys on the road have neither. Same with Accords, Altimas or American brands, from which Ford seems to be trailing the most.

Getting Fusion from Mazda6 was a great move performance/handlingwise, and I like the vehicle (as I do Mazda6), but they better invest some money into structural development now and make some of the upgrades on safety equipment. Bill Ford tries to convince us it is their commitment, but the hard data suggests otherwise.

nippononly · March 2006

ABS is standard in the Camrys from LE on up, or is it all the trims? As for SAB and curtains, many of the less expensive Camrys being built in the last year had the $650 SAB/curtain package as their only options, and for the '07 model (at dealers in 2 weeks) they will be standard.

I think the importance of stability control in cars is overstated. SUVs and high-riding crossovers, sure, it's a lot more important. I am aware that opinions differ here.

I think safety sells more and more these days - what was true in the past has changed. Honda is putting the crash test ratings right on its Monroney sticker nowadays. Somebody somewhere must think that safety sells now.

dino001 · March 2006

Most "budget" consumers would go for a stereo than for side impact aribags or fog lights, while "premium" customers make big eyes when hear that side curtains might not be standard on some vehicles. To each their own.

Yeah, I agree in principal that safety message comes eventually to the mindset of a consumer, but there are still big strides to be made.

What you just said about Camry only confirms my view of Toyota, as the champion of "just on time" delivery in content: never lead, never stick your head out (never volunteer to put anything standard before it becomes important to the buyer), but follow patterns very closely and react immediately to any possible tide changes. I don't blame them - it is profitable and very efficient, just not my idea of leadership, even if they are eventually destined to be number 1 volume seller.

nippononly · March 2006

well that seems to be the lot of any volume leader - you GET to volume sales by economizing in as many parts of your operation as possible. Not leading in the details is a way of making sure that you can implement a change when it becomes clear people want it, and then not have to drop it later because of the cost or whatever.

I mean, look at GM - they had standard ABS, then removed it because they wanted to make the cars cheaper. By contrast, Toyota generally doesn't go back, then forward, then back like that, but just goes forward consistently. Isn't it even their slogan?! :-P

dino001 · March 2006

Indeed, it is. GM example is actually a good one. One may say, they actually tried to make their inferior product more appealing by adding some good stuff (e.g. ABS standard on Cavalier), but it didn't work because, well, overall the product was still inferior. Toyota does have (or has had) a superior product in terms of reliability or build quality - I just sometimes wish they were not so efficiency-oriented, i.e. allowed for a few deviations like manual transmissions, more body types, etc. But I do undertand it very well that they would not get here if they actually followed my wishes.

I find myself off beat in many areas, not only cars. It is fine as long as I still can find what I like and the premium is in my range. Every so often I try to convince myself into mainstream Toyotas, but after careful examination I back away - just not my cup of tea. I see merits, I see why people buy them, just not me.

GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda...Who will sell you your next car?

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