Stories from the Sales Frontlines

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Comments

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,617
    Ok, but who cares what the united nations says? Its one of the biggest cluster ***** in world history.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,299
    Called to verify that a vehicle listed on website inventory was actually there and when I arrived poof the excuses begin to flow. And it is only Toyota dealers that have pulled this stunt

    With me it happened once with Toyota, twice with Nissan and twice with Honda. This is when I purchased 2 vehicles within 3 months in 2004. A couple of times the excuse was the car had been sold, a couple other times the car had been damaged by a salesman moving it and it was in the body shop. Should have said I'd still like to see it.

    I do appreciate mac confirming my suspicions though, I didn't think I was paranoid enough to think all car salesmen were out to get me. ;)
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    Luring them in will ultimately piss them off to the point that they will never come back and have them tell everyone they know and post on the internet about how shady the dealer is.

    That’s the way it should work and it would definitely work that way with me but something tells me it doesn’t work that way often enough for dealers to stop that practice. Most dealerships have been in business a long time and they know how to sell cars so if they thought their business practice wasn’t working, they would stop poor practices.

    I could be wrong but most buyers only THINK they know what they want and what they want to spend. This has to be one of the reasons buyers are so far in over their head that most will never get out from under their poor decisions.

    Come to think of it, I don’t think I am wrong but maybe one of the guys in the biz will confirm this or shoot me down. Remember their sales 101 line? -- “If you don’t ask you won’t get”.

    I think they get enough often enough to continue with the way they are going.

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    There is always allot of talk here about the sales and service surveys customers receive and how some people have been asked to bring to the dealership to have it filled out, and how some people advocate holding the survey as black mail.

    I could never figure out why some stores made such huge deals about it. Now I know.

    The front page of the Automotive News this week has a a headline that reads

    GM: Dealers rig customer satisfaction surveys.

    It goes on to say that GM is tossing out survey results from some dealers last quarter because they tampered with them. The way they got caught is that now allot of people fill out there survey online, well these Rocket Scientist at the dealerships were filling out the surveys for customers from dealership computers.

    They were telling customers that if they bring the survey to them they will give them a full tank of gas.

    As I read the article I was still confused as to why some one would compromise the integrity of there store over a few % points. Then I read this.

    GM Dealerships that meet factory targets for sales and customer satisfaction qualify for quarterly bonuses. Here are potential bonuses for several size Chevrolet dealerships.

    Annual Sales
    5200 or more $420,000
    2900-3299 $231,000
    1200-1399 $100,500
    700-799 $60,000
    1-99 $13000

    Here is a link I found to the story on another web site.

    link title
  • jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    You, Jipster, Joel, Jmonroe, and Houdini1 have been very nice guys. Maybe I shouldn't be this way but, as Richard Nixon once said, "I forgive but I NEVER forget." People deserve to know about bad dealers.

    Careful now. I’m not in the biz and I don’t appreciate being put in the same boat (or sentence) as those guys.
    Mack is a salesman, Joel is an F&I guy (no, that isn’t a swear word), I don’t know Houdini1 very well but I’m sure he’s not in the biz cause he talks like a buyer and Jipster… well…he’s paranoid and doesn’t even know it. :confuse:

    So, if you’re going to hang out here learn your players (oops, I better not say that. This isn’t a sports site although you wouldn’t know that if you tuned in here lately). Name calling is OK, to a point, but let’s not put people in the wrong boat. That’s a good way to get the non-biz guys fired up. :D

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Ouch this is going to be a painful quarter for these dealerships.

    I don't even want to think about having to give back a big quarterly bonus like that.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    With a bonus per car in the $70-80 range it makes sense for a less than honest dealership to offer a free tank of gas for every survey. Just another profit centre.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Why any salesperson or "call center" would tell a customer that a car is available when it has been sold!

    Instead, they should maybe suggest an alternative.

    Makes no sense!
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    More like $300 a car, those are quarterly bonuses against annual sales. So if you are a 5200 plus in annual sales and hit your CS goal all 4 quarters that is $1,680,000 in a years time you are talking about.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,299
    I don't appreciate being put in the same boat... let's not put people in the wrong boat.

    Right, we'll need to put you in the most appropriate boat then ...a dingy. :P

    Myself,richard and the rest of the guys in the biz, will be riding around in gg's yacht. We'll let mac tag along as he know's all those Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders. :blush:
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • epineyepiney Member Posts: 462
    More like $300 a car, those are quarterly bonuses against annual sales. So if you are a 5200 plus in annual sales and hit your CS goal all 4 quarters that is $1,680,000 in a years time you are talking about.

    Yeah, the article mentioned that one dealer quoted a figure of $700 per car. The customers giving the surveys for a tank of gas are getting clubbed like baby seals. They need to bargaining for part holdback ;)
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    You're right, the quarterly part didn't register with me when I read your post.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,299
    Simple...$$$
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    You're right. But they keep doing it. I upped a couple that came in looking for a Ford Escape that had been sold the previous day. I knew it had been sold since I had another customer earlier that day looking for the same vehicle. This was a Friday evening and they had driven about 50 miles in rush hour traffic to find the vehicle "had just been sold but we might have another one just like it" as the used car manager told them. It made me want to puke. :sick: the jist of the story is the customers left and I called them the next day and apologized and they understood it was not me but the store's policy but swore to never do business with this company. Can't say I blame them. :(
    Mack
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    That kind of money could be the difference between a profitable year and a break even year.
  • epineyepiney Member Posts: 462
    That’s the way it should work and it would definitely work that way with me but something tells me it doesn’t work that way often enough for dealers to stop that practice. Most dealerships have been in business a long time and they know how to sell cars so if they thought their business practice wasn’t working, they would stop poor practices.

    That's why it's unlikely the vicious circle will ever stop. Dealers pull stunts like this and customers lie and play games to defend themselves. Dealers escalate the stunts and even ones that try to play fair are pressured into some tactics. For buyers with thinner skins and less confident about their knowledge, it can be very nerve racking. The guys buying here have learned to sift through them.

    How many times have you heard "Come in and we promise to make it worth your while" "We guarantee that we will not be undersold on price" We will beat any price" It's amazing how fast they backpedal on that stuff when you call them on it. That stuff just rolls off off like water off the back of a duck for me, but you can see how they can be a flash point for the tirades that are posted.

    I have a lot more respect for someone that doesn't make these claims they can't keep and deals more straight up.
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    This survey stuff is pretty serious. I got to the point where I thought about quitting Tuesday when I got my pay sheet. Remember that 51 survey I got in Sept for a vehicle I sold in Aug? well that's the one that screwed me out of my trip to Mexico and then knocked me down to the "yellow" zone which means that if I'm in the 30% commission zone it drops me to the 25% zone AND I get "charged back" $500.00!!!! :mad: I don't know if this is legal but I sure know it's not moral or ethical. It's more like stealing from the sales people. I was livid! I came in to work yesterday and miracuously I was back in the "green" zone and my pay was where it was supposed to be. Any attorney here familiar with labor laws? I believe what they are doing to us is illegal.
    :mad:
    Mackabee
  • jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    GM Dealerships that meet factory targets for sales and customer satisfaction qualify for quarterly bonuses. Here are potential bonuses for several size Chevrolet dealerships.

    Annual Sales
    5200 or more $420,000
    2900-3299 $231,000
    1200-1399 $100,500
    700-799 $60,000
    1-99 $13000


    This just confirms at least two things to me about the car biz. I know there are a lot more but I’ll give others a chance to also respond:

    (1) Us buyers will never figure out how to get the best price. Maybe the ones who shop until they drop are the ones who get the best deals. And we all laugh at them, huh. Well, guess whose laughing as they are driving all the way home from their dealership?

    (2) Car manufactures charge waaaaay to much for their wares.

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    my score with that bad survey went down to 93.75%, the requirements for the contest were 94%! I heard thru the grapevine that one of my buddies is talking to the VP of sales to let me take his place as he feels I was robbed and I was so looking forward to it. If it happens it happens and if it don't I'm ok with it too.
    Mack
  • epineyepiney Member Posts: 462
    Any attorney here familiar with labor laws? I believe what they are doing to us is illegal.

    You need to check your employment contract. It is more than likely the dealer is absolutely covered. In all the commisions plans I have seen, there is a always a clause that says the employer can modify it at any time for any reason. Good judgement is usually applied though. I'm not an expert, but I suspect the only claim you may hav eis discrimination if the rules are not applied evenly.
  • au1994au1994 Member Posts: 3,760
    That would have been my exact reaction, never to do business with the compay again.

    I had this happen to me when I bought my Tacoma in 1995. Paper advertised one w/ all the equipemnt I wanted at a great deal. Called to verify, they confirmed it was there so I went to the dealer and of course it was not there. I was 25 and this was my first buying experience so I should have been suspect of trying to buy the truck in the ad. Lesson learned there. Still got what I thought was a good deal on another truck that I enjoyed so it was not a total loss.

    Now, there was another Toyota dealer about 50 min up the raod in a small town, known for good deals etc. If I would have driven up there and had the same experience, I would have come unglued!

    2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Limited Velvet Red over Wicker Beige
    2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
    2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha

  • epineyepiney Member Posts: 462
    Us buyers will never figure out how to get the best price.

    I think the definition of best price is a moving target. What exactly is it anyways? If you mean the absolutely lowest price on that model in that month, then there is only one person that will get the best price.

    My defintion is a bit different. I am usually pretty specific on model, color, options so I don't expext to get the blow out deal unless I am willing to compromise on something. I think I know more than most about the vehicle and market pricing and a little bit about the sales process. So I expect a better deal than average, say in the top 10 to 15 percentile of deals. To drive a better deal then I am starting to get diminishing returns for my time investment.

    That's the way I look at "best price" for me.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,299
    ... the one that screwed me out of my trip to Mexico..

    A trip to Mexico is a reward??? I think I'd take the cash option on that one.
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    well that's the one that screwed me out of my trip to Mexico and then knocked me down to the "yellow" zone which means that if I'm in the 30% commission zone it drops me to the 25% zone AND I get "charged back" $500.00!!!!

    I would have told some one to shove there pay plan up there 4th point of contact and been at the house before they had a chance to respond.

    I will work as hard and smart as I can for any one, the only thing I want in return is to be rewarded for my effort. Start screwing with my pay and I am out the door.

    Is your pay plan in writing and signed by you and your supervisor? If it is then I would say that you don't have a complaint. If it is one of those "changes" they made on the fly then I would raise the roof on the place till I got my $500 back.
  • lrguy44lrguy44 Member Posts: 2,197
    First of all, there are cases where the dealer is not lying about a car being sold. More than once I or another salesman has just sold a car when someone walks in the door to see it. If I have a prospect and the car of their choice is sold, I will call them as soon as possible. But the web site takes awhile to update.

    If someone thinks they "got clubbed like a baby seal" over $300-$700 of holdback, they do not know the meaning of the term. First of all, most sales departments are not paid on holdback, it does not enter into the sales dept net or gross profits, and they could give a rip about it. Dealers do have to make a profit and $500 gross per car is not a net profit.
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    Agreed, the average consumer has no idea what they are talking about when it comes to what good vs extreme profit is. IMO hold back is named appropriately, money they hold back from me getting paid on.
  • jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    I think the definition of best price is a moving target. What exactly is it anyways?

    I agree with you. Unless you shop until you drop how do you really know? The best price for me is when the dealer agrees to my price. Some may say that I am willing to pay too much and that might be true but I feel confident in how I do my research so why should I change? I haven’t talked to any honest buyers who know how to do it better.

    If you mean the absolutely lowest price on that model in that month, then there is only one person that will get the best price.

    Now, having said what I just said above, I got a dumb luck deal like this when I bought in 2005 but since I’m a pretty sane person I don’t expect to get that kind of deal again (I’m just happy I got it once). I didn’t when I bought in 2006 but I think I still got a good deal that time anyhow.

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

  • epineyepiney Member Posts: 462
    If someone thinks they "got clubbed like a baby seal" over $300-$700 of holdback, they do not know the meaning of the term.

    Relax, you need to look at the winking emotorcon at the end of the sentence. ;) :P It was more in jest at the exchange of a tank of gas for a good survey that contributes to earning $700 per car. For those who actually think I was serious to negotiate holdback for a survey, then :P :D
  • lrguy44lrguy44 Member Posts: 2,197
    It's still early in the morning here - I do need another cup of coffee. Apologize. But the talk of if a happens then the dealer is ALWAYS lying and negotiating holdback makes me cranky.
    Go ROX and Indians. If that is the world series, I have to wear a ROX hat and Indians shirt.
  • metmdxmetmdx Member Posts: 270
    Yeah, baby....here we go ! :shades:
  • epineyepiney Member Posts: 462
    You know, invoice and holdback and MSRP are only reference points. The buying guides and Consumer Reports have people too fixated over these things. They only thing that really matters is market. Sometimes I think people are overly concerned on the mark-up rather than the market. It comes from fear of overpaying. I am only concerned about what I pay relative to market and I invest my efforts in trying to get a feel of what market is in my area. Invoice and holdback are irrelavant when buying a Shelby Cobra or Dodge Durango, but in opposite ways.
  • jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    Right, we'll need to put you in the most appropriate boat then ...a dingy. :P

    Thank you, that makes me the Captain. :P :P

    BTW, you're on Report. :(

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Mack,

    It sounds like your store has changed and not for the good.

    I would have trouble working there. I don't think I would.
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    "A trip to Mexico is a reward??? I think I'd take the cash option on that one."

    There's no cash option. And I would have loved to go. We haven't had a vacation to speak of since I came down with cancer. The last three years have been nothing but pure hell with bits of heaven sprinkled in. The trip is to Playa Del Carmen in the Yucatan peninsula in between Cancun and Cozumel. I've been to Cancun and Cozumel back in 1999 on a cruise I won and had a great time. This trip is an "all inclusive" so everything is paid for at the resort. When the contest began I told my wife to get the passports ready and pack a light bag. I was number uno, the big cheese, el chingon, the big kahuna, for the three months of the contest and when the winner's list came out my name was not on it! WTF! pardon my french but I was very upset.image

    Every one I asked just passed the buck. So I missed the trip by .25% even though I outsold the one that took my place by 12 cars and they don't get surveys. :confuse:

    Anyway, enough venting. I'm leaving in about an hour and a half to Waldorf MD to visit Mack Jr. Mrs. Mack Jr. and Mackabeeto
    image
  • lrguy44lrguy44 Member Posts: 2,197
    Well said
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I think some otherwise good stores get the feeling that they have to turn their backs on ethics in order to compete.

    So, they pull tricks and lie to customers in ordr to get them in the door. They know that often these people can be switched to another car.

    And, on the other side, greedy cheapskate customers hellbent on paying the least they possible can for a car often resort to behavior a lot of people wouldn't believe.

    Some would argue that they bring it on themselves.
  • lrguy44lrguy44 Member Posts: 2,197
    I really feel bad about you loss of the vacation. I won the LR Master's cruise (7 day carribean) and it came down shortly after being off work for 4 months with 3 major surgeries. My wife had quit her job to nurse me (thank God for her) and the cruise was what we both sorely needed. I know what it would have meant to you and your wife. Hang in there, good things will happen. We don't get paid on CSI any more, but our Master qualification depends on it.
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    Well, the only thing keeping me there is my poor health. If I leave now I lose a life insurance policy that I have with the company. It's not the only policy I have others but it's still a substantial amount that if I kick the bucket Mrs. Mack won't have to worry about it. The other is the FMLA which I can take up to twelve weeks per year for serious illness. If I leave and go to another store I have to start over again and wait a year before I can qualify for FMLA. I has a short disability policy with the company right now but it's based on last year's wages. I was sick half the year so I didn't make anything to write home about. I'll use that as the last resort once I start taking the chemo and see how it affects me this time. Oct 17-19 is the first infusion.
    image
  • lrguy44lrguy44 Member Posts: 2,197
    We will be thinking of you.
  • epineyepiney Member Posts: 462
    Here's wishing the Mrs. Mack never has to collect on that policy and for a successful treatment. Thoughts are with you and your family.
  • wlbrown9wlbrown9 Member Posts: 867
    Hummmm. Where does this cash come from? The AD fees that have started showing up on invoices?

    I also wonder how the sales guys come out on this...do they get a cut or is it just for the dealership same as holdback and to some extent the dreaded 'DOC FEES'?

    Now when I get the "At that price we would not have any profit" am I going to believe the sales guy/ sales manager?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I hear you brother, and I do care.

    The grass isn't always greener either.

    Your store changed but you didn't.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,230
    LIke everyone else, our good thoughts are with you. Always enjoyed your posts here. Know that we all want you feeling better.

    As far as best prices when negotiating...we've all ballyhooed our own strategies here ad nauseum.

    Truth is, there are way too many variables to state emphatically "my way gets the best deal".

    Best advice...

    1. Do your research
    2. Don't be afraid to walk
    3. Be confident
    4. Don't be paranoid
    5. Remember, it's you money
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • lrguy44lrguy44 Member Posts: 2,197
    The AD fees that have started showing up on invoices

    I don't know what you mean about AD FEES showing up on invoices. If an item is on the invoice, it will show dealer cost and MSRP. If you are talking about RAG fees, they are a cost to the dealer. Now some dealers on some cars will add an ADDENDUM (and call it market adjustment) to a MSRP. That is strickly dealer markup and adds to the gross profit of the sales dept and can and should be negotiated.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 5,271
    Mac, good luck. Just know that there are folks that you have never met who have you in their thoughts. And not just regarding how to get a piece of the holdback!

    Hey, re: the Pix of Manny. He can't be explained. Just Manny being Manny. Pedro has been w/The Mets for a couple of years. He was (and still may be) just magnificent to watch. His one hitter/17k game against the Evil Empire IN New York may have been the finest pitching that I've ever been in awe of (no offense, Tom Seaver and the "Imperfect Game." Thanks, Jimmy Qualls!).

    Brockton ROX, you're routing for the Brockton ROX? Cool, but they ended their Can-Am league a month ago (they are partially owned by Bill Murray...). Good for you! Maybe you meant the SOX! Yeah, that's it... SAWX!

    Pats/Brownies: Another Belichick disciple working the Cleveland sidelines in Romeo Crenel. Should be a close game...until it starts, that is! :blush:

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • jescuejescue Member Posts: 521
    Hopefully things will go well and you can catch the next trip. I know you have many people here who wish you the best.We will keep you in our thoughts. :)
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    Mack, reminds me of a few years ago when I was in a contest for a 10 day trip to Europe for me and my wife, it included tickets to the British Open. It was a 6 month long contest based on warranty sales. Was in the lead from the beggining and after a strong push the last 10 days (allot of warranties sold at cost :D ) I had it in the bag. There was no doubt in my mind I had won it. Well 3 weeks later when the results came out I missed out by 5 contracts, but their total for me was off by 15 contracts.

    I raised 4 kinds of hell with Ford and got no where. So I asked my Warranty Clerk to pull what we call a 2106 report. It shows contracts sold that Ford had not charged us for yet.

    Guess what? The lady who punched contracts for us failed to punch the last 15 prior to the contest ending. She punched them two days after the NLT date. Said she forgot to include them on her close schedule.

    The lesson I learned is never let any one else control the results of my actions. Since that day I have reported warranty sales for the dealership.

    Hell i probably could not have afforded the 1099 for it anyhow so it may have been a blessing in disguise :D
  • wlbrown9wlbrown9 Member Posts: 867
    Well, Edmunds discussions note that if the Advertising Fee is on the invoice, then it is probably legit and would add that much to the true invoice cost of the vehicle. I kind of look at Ad Fees like destination fees...maybe they should be the same nationally and noted like the destination fees. But, they are not listed in the pricing guides since the AD Fees seem to be regional or even metro. Say all of the Chevy dealer in metro Philly all benefit from local market advertising, then they are probably in the local market group and pay the same fees for manufacturer market support (Ad Fees). Now if there is a dealer 100 miles west of there that does not participate in the Philly AD market, then they don't pay those fees. So, in effect their net invoice is lower than the Philly dealer.
  • jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    Anyway, enough venting. I'm leaving in about an hour and a half to Waldorf MD to visit Mack Jr. Mrs. Mack Jr. and Mackabeeto

    You’ve got another poster buddy rootin for ya.

    Enjoy your visit with the family, we’ll handle the weekend duty for you.

    Waldorf MD, if I’m not mistaken that’s just up the road from Patuxent River Naval Air Test Station (my old Navy base at Lexington Park MD.). :D

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

  • epineyepiney Member Posts: 462
    Hell i probably could not have afforded the 1099 for it anyhow so it may have been a blessing in disguise

    Catch 22. Sell a bunch of contracts at cost to win the contest, but not make enough margin to pay the tax on the 1099 or sell lees contracts at profit and lose the contest. Hmmm what to do, what to do :confuse: :P
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