Economists are great for telling us what just happened.
Yes, but it would be better if they were correct in their "analysis." We still don't know the real causes of the global financial crunch. If the economists were correct, that $700 BILLION (half of which has already been burnt) would have alleviated the problem by now.
Offensive: "An economist is an accountant with some personality" No, s/he is just another person with an opinion. Economists are great for telling us what just happened.
Sorry suv4, are you an accountant?
You can't say anything humorous these days without offending someone.
I don't think a Honda is any more expensive than a comparable Ford or Chevrolet....I wandered around and looked at the stickers and I sure didn't see much difference.
I'm sure you know neither Honda's nor domestic's sell for sticker price. Throw in the rebates and various incentives, and a comparable Honda is a couple grand more than a GM or Ford.
Ford is right with Honda reliability wise now, so it is by far the better value, IMO. :P
The resale problem right now is perception more then product, that will come with time.
It really bothers me that we are about to have even better product and probably the most solid line that we have ever had, and we are launching it in the middle of this mess we are in.
we are about to have even better product and probably the most solid line that we have ever had, and we are launching it in the middle of this mess we are in.
Ford has a pretty good lineup and I wonder if the new Camaro would do much for GM. It is supposed to start in the low $20,000s so is a fair bit of bling for a fairly low price. Chrysler, well, they tried with Compass, Patriot, Calibre, but lets face it, not strong enough to motivate todays buyer.
I don't know if any one wants to buy anything right now. Prices on almost everything are dropping, so people will wait and see what happens.....and of course no one knows when they will be laid off or take a cut in pay....too much uncertainty to buy.
News should stress that 90% of the population is still employed.
I have been waiting for mack to tell him the the Tundra is still a POS and even farther behind Ford now. I got a video to show him of a Blundra going over an obstacle course (big speed bumps) and gets $3500 in damage in about 60 feet.
I wanted to ask BR how it is working for the TATA folks.
is for companies and governments to decide what will happen, who'll merge, who'll get a loan, who'll be cut so that we can do some planning and reorganizing if necessary.
Worst case scenarios is the dealership will shut down, best case we'll be "saved." Best worst case scenario is we'll lose the Chrysler franchise, but gain another brand like Hyundai or something to sell. Or we'll just become a used car lot which might suck.
Some customers are asking what will happen. Up until now everything we hear is talks, rumors and speculation.
Until the 5 pointed star comes off the showroom wall, it's business as usual.
I saw a commercial where a Ford F-150 is hooked to a big CONEX box on the side of a cliff. Truck pulls the box up and over cliff wall then comes to a stop all nice and neat. What I need to know is...how much for the Conex box?
Best of luck, boom. You'll come out on top no matter what but it's tough to live through.
Here in town the Caddy dealership closed (same dealership still sells Chevy) but a Hyundai dealership is moving in. Don't know if taht's domestic vs. import, high end vs. low end or what but that's what's happening here.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Chrysler, well, they tried with Compass, Patriot, Calibre, but lets face it, not strong enough to motivate todays buyer
I don't think they tried very hard. Chrysler stole the old Kia model for car design... load them down with goodies (standard), make them cheap ... sell them even cheaper.
My brother bought a Patriot. Nicely loaded, with discount only $16,500. Exterior looked pretty decent. But, the interior... blahh..... could barely see out the front or back windshield. Felt kind of like ridding in a oversized underpowered sardine can.
For pre-owned I'll take the General (always been good to me), or perhaps a Ford. If I'm going new, I'll take Honda, Toyota, Mazda, The General, Nissan or Ford... not necessarily in that order.
I guess I don't understand why they could not go chapter 11 if things are that bad. Apparently they have been living on borrowed money and now can't borrow any more so it is time to face the music.
I think there will be a bail out but not until the Dems take over in 09. They will want to take care of the unions, but even old Harry Reid was stunned when they all arrived in their private jets
I hope one condition of any bail out is that the top 3 levels of mgt are all fired along with the board of directors....and then put chainsaw Jack Welch in charge.
Of course, one of my fears is that our Government is not so different from the Big 3 automakers: living in large debt, with no real grasp on reality. Unlike the Big 3, who can't just pass new laws to take our money from us, the Gov can (not to mention just print up a few more billion!). And will, as promised by the PresElec (whom I fervently hope will be the finest POTUS this country has seen in many a year). Will they fire all the execs and boards? I doubt it, for they are one and the same.
Again, as the Great Philosopher wrote, "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
I found the news interesting today when it was reported that the Big 3 must return a third time with a firm plan for spending bail out monies. With half of the $700B burned, it's too bad that AIG and the banks didn't have to submit a similar plan.
Joel, thanks for the tip on Dr. Pepper---my favorite drink. I guess I will sign up for my free soda. BTW, email me if you want to know about Mack. The Hosts had rather that we not discuss that here.
GM and Chrysler will file ch 11 bankruptcy. Ford will continue sellng the same boring cars they've sold for the last 10 years but will survive another year. Why won't they sell the cars they make in europe here? Toyota has the capital to buy GM 10 times over but won't do it until GM goes into ch 11. Why get saddled with all those pensions. No one wants Chrysler. We should let it die a dignified death. The ceo's of the big three have a lot of gall flying to dc in there personal or corporate jets. The guy from Ford, Mullaly even gets into a Lexus LS when he gets off the plane then drives up in a hybrid wannabe Fusion. I'm surprised the liberal media didn't pick up on the Lexus bit. It was funny watching them on CNN trying to convince the gov why they need money. But what did you expect from three car salesman?
I can see your point but you must remember that all of my friends tormented me for four months. The reason I took it so personnally is because I'm a car guy, hemis, big blocks in the sixties, a new 440 Fury III convert. in 1969, all that stuff. Then I show up with a brand new Pacer and blew my image forever. Oh well, I'm still here.
driver.....have to say, I've been thoroughly impressed with the Accord I bought recently. I'll give Honda this, they know how to make a slick piece, and screw it together well.
That said, I've driven the Fusion a couple of times (rental). Ford did a nice job with it, too. And, I'm certain it's thousands less than an Accord. Maybe because of size, I should be comparing the Accord to the Taurus. Certainly, the value factor might be closer between the two.
My two year old Tahoe has been another very good vehicle.
Point of all this is, as others have pointed out, the quality between makes is more a perception (a wrong one, at that). But, it takes awhile for that to change. What we don't know is how long, at least for GM and Ford, that will take. Or, if they'll be around that long.
As much as it pains me to say this, I don't see any way around Chrysler staying intact, at least in its present form. Daimler did them no favors (the "merger of equals", such as it was, was really the beginning of their downfall). Neither has Cerebus. Maybe Chryco gets broken into parts, and certain pieces will survive, but I don't hold out hope that can happen, either.
The guy from Ford, Mullaly even gets into a Lexus LS when he gets off the plane then drives up in a hybrid wannabe Fusion. I'm surprised the liberal media didn't pick up on the Lexus bit.
That is funny. It would be interesting to know what he thought about the Lexus. I have sat in the back of a Ford Crown Victoria (a fancy name and great classic in the past) and I wonder why Ford is still in the business. Sink to the floor in those grubby plastic taxi seats - but the worst part from a design standpoint is nothing lines up. Most cars now can integrate the dash and the window sill and armrests, in the Crown Vic nothing lines up, and there are big gaps between the doors and the body. I would be ashamed to be putting these cars into the market.....when you see what can be done, even in much cheaper cars.
I'm a car guy, hemis, big blocks in the sixties, a new 440 Fury III convert. in 1969, all that stuff. Then I show up with a brand new Pacer and blew my image forever. Oh well, I'm still here.
Good story Wesley...I would have liked to see you drive up in your lime green Pacer. Just curious, what do you drive today, hope you didn't keep the Pacer?
Point of all this is, as others have pointed out, the quality between makes is more a perception (a wrong one, at that). But, it takes awhile for that to change.
I am not 100% sure the perception is wrong. A few U.S. cars make the reliability lists, usually Buick and some Fords, but many of their other models are way down the list. I just heard of a guy with a Honda with over 300,000 miles and only regular maintenance. We don't know if the U.S. cars will hold up over time....initial surveys might change over time.....we know Toyotas and Hondas can last a long time with fairly low maintenance. One reason they hold their value.
driver....well.....I can personally attest to a Grand Marquis robustness (a 12 year old one, at that). Everything lined up. Taxi companies routinely put 250K miles on them. And, that includes a lot of harsh treatment.
So, can the Big 3 make a good car? Absolutely. I can't comment on Chrysler's current stable, as I think the only recent example I have been in is a rental Sebring. Wasn't impressed.
While I hope I don't own it that long, I'd say that my Tahoe is good for 150K miles, at least. But, you never know.
I expect my son will drive the wheels off the Accord at 150K+ miles (as he's doing with his Elantra) with little need for anything outside of routine maintenance.
Fact is, generally, cars are much better made today than they've ever been. The differences in quality between brands, if there is any at all, is very narrow.
Perception is reality, unfortunately. Not so long ago, if you said the name Hyundai, you'd think 3rd class car, and wouldn't be too far off the mark. Trade in values on Hyundai reflect that perception. Today, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one and feel totally justified in doing so.
Matter of fact, regardless of perception, Hyundai is taking a page out of Honda's and Toyota's play book from 40-45 years ago. Offer quality cars, at a cheap(er) price. They're even getting into the luxury car biz, just lie their Japanese branded counterparts.
Perceptions take time to change. If my Father were still living, he probably wouldn't speak to me for buying an Accord (or a Mazda, or a BMW). His perception was the Japanese and European brands were junk. Even though he was born in Italy, he considered (when they were marketed here) Fiat and Alfa Romeo junk, too. Clearly, decades of improvement were lost on him Same goes for GM or Ford. Regardless of my parents' experience with them, (which sometimes wasn't very good), their perception was that GM and Ford represented the pinnacle of quality automobiles.
LOL, I learned how to sell almost anything, so I'm not brand specific anymore
It's good becasue it opened up doors for me.
I started my 2 for 1 marketing blitz today. We'll see what kind of response we'll get to it. Hopefully a good one. All my ads (about 5 different sites/places) are free anyways so even if we gain one deal it'll be worth it.
>It is a ludicrous scene, that would make an excellent political cartoon....3 guys on their hands and knees begging for money to keep their companies afloat...
Ha ha..picture this
3 guys in a Tall hat and a tail suit, stepping out of a Mercedes and standing in the Soup kitchen line :sick:
One main point he makes is this which is very informative: They don't build small cars (myth or not). The Detroit Three build plenty of small cars--they're just not very good. In the U.S.News rankings of affordable small cars, for instance, seven out of 34 models are domestics. But the highest ranked--the Chevrolet Cobalt--lands at No. 20, while the top three are all Hondas. So, CEO Rick Wagoner is telling the truth when he says that in 2009 GM will offer 20 models (including a few mid-sized cars, a couple small sports cars, and a few others) that will get 30 mpg on the highway. The question is whether anybody will want to buy them--and if not, is it the government's job to subsidize uncompetitive products.
Patterns are set and your parents came to trust the Big 3, and they should because those were the best cars for the masses for many years - maybe 1946 to 1990. But few big 3 cars can match the foreign competition. I have rented Impalas, Pontiacs, Buicks and they are OK, but nothing special, they just miss the mark. By the way, he mentions Fusions in a positive way, but it is one of the few bright spots coming from the Big 3.
I read in the newspaper that the Congressman asked the Ford CEO if he would accept a cut in pay like Iacocca did, worked for $1 until things get changed around. He said he wouldn't give up his 21 million dollar a year salary, and the others went along with what he said. Did I actually read that?
My 2 for 1 is if you buy certain New models at MSRP you'll get a free select used model. And no, it's not a wholesale beater, but a decent used car anywhere from $5k-$10k in value.
But, building a quality vehicle is different than building a vehicle people want. Quality is just a subset of having something someone will buy. I can't remember the last time I drove a Cobalt....maybe never. I've seen them at the dealerships. And, quite frankly, they are something I probably wouldn't buy over a Civic or Corolla. But again, that's based on perception because I've not driven them.
So yeah.....they can't build small cars people will want, if the public's opinions are much like mine.
Conversely, I wouldn't buy a Toyota Sequoia over a Chevy Tahoe. Or, a Honda Pilot over a Ford Explorer, either. The Sequoia and Pilot may very well be fine vehicles. My perception is the Tahoe and the Explorer are better.....MY PERCEPTION!
That doesn't matter as it relates to the article, however.
The CEOs came across as extremely arrogant by flying in on their private jets. This is an important meeting. Wouldn't it have sent a better message if they DROVE one of their products to D.C.? I don't buy that anyone is so important that they need to have their pampered butts hauled by private jet. To ad insult to injury, they're asking the American public for a handout....begging us would be a more appropriate term. They've shuttered many plants, putting many thousands of people out of work. But, they aren't themselves willing to give up any of their salaries, bonuses?
Sorry, no soup for you. A little humility goes a long way. I'd tie any bailout to a 50% cut in upper management salaries, and no bonuses until their respective companies are profitable again....just to start.
I'm glad that our gov't is grilling these guys. Said it before, the UAW and the auto companies went hand-in-hand down this road. Now, they're jointly going to have to come up with a plan to get themselves out of it.....over the long haul, for us to LOAN them the money.
Although I agree with many points that everyone expressed here, I personally don't think that last minute money saving changes of flying coach instead of private jet will save these companies, or make them look better in the yes of the public and congress.
Let's say thay would fly coach or business class to DC, I'm sure the media would find a way to turn the story and make it sound like these guys are sucking up to congress (by flying coach) but will be back to their old ways after they get the money.
Maybe they all have yearly contracts with their private jet companies that they pre paid before, I don't know.
Either way I'm not trying to defend them. But let's look at the whole picture. Should they have been more humble about it? Should they have driven their own products to DC as GG suggested? That probably would have given them an ounce of sympathy.
As for giving up salaries, yeah, they could have offered that as well. Would it change anything? Probably not. But once again, they would have gained some sympathy or some respect from whoever is listening to them right now.
Are politicians any different though? They'll be happy to give money (your money) or contracts to their buddies too, if they can get something out of it. If it turns out to be a bad financial move, they'll shrug their shoulders and blame somebody or something else for it. At election time, they'll pretend like nothing ever happenend and they'll be begging you, the voters to reelect them. No difference in my opinion.
So what I think the big questions is:
How do you make CEOs more accountable, and now responsible with taxpayer money, especially when so much is at stake?
well I think if the CEOs at least BLUSHED, no matter how phony or contrived the gesture, I would have preferred that to spewing out a carbon footprint in one flight that equals the entire annual emissions of an American family.
Yeah, sure, PRETEND to be humble and contrite, just for a day. Why not?
i'm not sure what the size differences between an accord and a fusion are, but I(over 6ft in height) can sit in the back seat of my fusion with without my head hitting the headliner and have plenty of legroom. that was one my criteria for purchasing since both my kids are old enough to drive. an accord with a moonroof drops down a class in size, from one without it.
mulally did have a top of the line lexus, which he referred to as the best car in the world, before he went to work for ford.
we are going to the local auto show tomorrow. my wife is looking for a new ride.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
boom....would it have made much difference if they drove to D.C.? Or, if they were a bit more "contrite", as Shifty puts it? No, not in the grand scheme of things.
But, I've found out that in general, if someone's got their own skin in the game, they tend to be more fastidious and more dedicated to the job at hand, and try a whole lot harder, than if they didn't. So, if they agreed to take a 50% pay cut, me....we....the taxpayers, who they're begging to, might be more willing to say "hey, I'm willing to lend a hand. Show me your plan".
I'm so livid over this issue I sent a message to my Senator and Congressman. May or may not get read. But, I at least want them to know that this sort of thing is unacceptable from managers of large corporations asking us for money to haul their fannies out of the fire.
maybe they subscribe to the Al Gore philosophy of carbon footprint, mine's way bigger than yours. you can bet from here on, someone will be watching how those washington politicians get around. for their own good, they should not have opened that little can of worms.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Is the only one of the three worth keeping. He started as an engineer with Boeing and moved up the ladder as a good company man should. He did call the Lexus LS the best car in the world and is seen getting behind the wheel of one after getting off the plane on wednesday on some of the videos making the rounds on yahoo.com, cnn.com, msn.com. Here's short bit from wikipedia on him and FORD.:
Mulally was named the President and CEO of Ford Motor Company on September 5, 2006, succeeding William Clay Ford, Jr., who remained as Executive Chairman of the company's Board of Directors.[9] Mulally drew flak over calling his Lexus LS the 'finest car in the world', just about as Ford announced his selection as CEO. [10] [11] He took over "The Way Forward" restructuring plan at Ford to turn-around its massive losses and declining market share.[12] Mulally revived the Ford Taurus and his cost cutting led to the company's first profitable quarter in two years.[13]
And according to USATODAY, the CEO's vehicle of choice fall under the following: BMW 13% MB 12% Toyota 10% Porsche 7% with some Masserati, Ferrari, and other high dollar brands thrown in the mix.
Mulally is now said to "rotate through an array" of Ford vehicles. link title I didn;t look up to see what Wagoner or Nardelli drive. Wagoner strikes me as a Suburban driver and Nardelli probably drives a BMW. Anyone care to guess?
Toyota has an answer for you and it will be coming to a showroom near you very soon (in Canada at least - should be in US too) Toyota Venza
Toyota is making a big deal out of the Venza's three rear seats, especially rear legroom. They split 60/40, and can recline up to 14 degrees from the vertical. Legroom at 993 mm is generous. But an Edge has 13 mm more.
If you read the review this gets Toyota more into the big interior field which is where Toy-Hon are lacking for large size North American butts!
I haven't seen cars from Detroit that are this innovative and yet appeal to the masses. The Fusion is a refined Ford, but it is not innovative in any way. Is the Camaro inovative...not really, a Mustang copy. Edge is an X3 inferior copy. Pontiac Solstice is about as innovative as Detroit gets.....but it is a poor copy of a Mazda Miata. I guess Volt is innovative, if you need a car that will go 40 miles before needing to be plugged in.
>Nobody did anything to address any of these deficits. They just grew worse and worse, with occasional blips of relief.
Isn't there a citizen factor where far too many are working off the Kennedy saying, Ask now what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you?
Now we're up to tax refunds for people who don't even pay income taxes... The media feeds off these people and their votes. I shouldn't get started...
As for the cars and reliability, I think the playing field equalized in 2002-2003. Lots of people still suffer under old ways of thinking that their car favorite brand is better for whatever reason. But as I peruse the forums and sources, it looks like they all need repairs. I don't believe the goes 300,000 mi and only the brakes got changed stories apply to 99% of the models sold in a brand.
Comments
Yes, but it would be better if they were correct in their "analysis." We still don't know the real causes of the global financial crunch. If the economists were correct, that $700 BILLION (half of which has already been burnt) would have alleviated the problem by now.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
No, s/he is just another person with an opinion.
Economists are great for telling us what just happened.
Sorry suv4, are you an accountant?
You can't say anything humorous these days without offending someone.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I'm sure you know neither Honda's nor domestic's sell for sticker price. Throw in the rebates and various incentives, and a comparable Honda is a couple grand more than a GM or Ford.
Ford is right with Honda reliability wise now, so it is by far the better value, IMO. :P
Did you type that with a straight face??
They got there hand out the day they got to DC.
Now, if only their dismal resale value would improve. that is where you lose the "value".
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It really bothers me that we are about to have even better product and probably the most solid line that we have ever had, and we are launching it in the middle of this mess we are in.
I mean congessman (who come in limo's etc) did not come for a handout - they have endless supplies of money from the taxpayer.
I think we are on the same wavelength.....I just came in half way in my reply.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Ford has a pretty good lineup and I wonder if the new Camaro would do much for GM. It is supposed to start in the low $20,000s so is a fair bit of bling for a fairly low price. Chrysler, well, they tried with Compass, Patriot, Calibre, but lets face it, not strong enough to motivate todays buyer.
I don't know if any one wants to buy anything right now. Prices on almost everything are dropping, so people will wait and see what happens.....and of course no one knows when they will be laid off or take a cut in pay....too much uncertainty to buy.
News should stress that 90% of the population is still employed.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I have been waiting for mack to tell him the the Tundra is still a POS and even farther behind Ford now. I got a video to show him of a Blundra going over an obstacle course (big speed bumps) and gets $3500 in damage in about 60 feet.
I wanted to ask BR how it is working for the TATA folks.
A free Dr Pepper
A gift from Joel
Ok So its not really from me. But you know how us car guys are.
Now back to your regular scheduled programing.
Worst case scenarios is the dealership will shut down, best case we'll be "saved." Best worst case scenario is we'll lose the Chrysler franchise, but gain another brand like Hyundai or something to sell. Or we'll just become a used car lot which might suck.
Some customers are asking what will happen. Up until now everything we hear is talks, rumors and speculation.
Until the 5 pointed star comes off the showroom wall, it's business as usual.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
Here in town the Caddy dealership closed (same dealership still sells Chevy) but a Hyundai dealership is moving in. Don't know if taht's domestic vs. import, high end vs. low end or what but that's what's happening here.
I don't think they tried very hard. Chrysler stole the old Kia model for car design... load them down with goodies (standard), make them cheap ... sell them even cheaper.
My brother bought a Patriot. Nicely loaded, with discount only $16,500. Exterior looked pretty decent. But, the interior... blahh..... could barely see out the front or back windshield. Felt kind of like ridding in a oversized underpowered sardine can.
For pre-owned I'll take the General (always been good to me), or perhaps a Ford. If I'm going new, I'll take Honda, Toyota, Mazda, The General, Nissan or Ford... not necessarily in that order.
I think there will be a bail out but not until the Dems take over in 09. They will want to take care of the unions, but even old Harry Reid was stunned when they all arrived in their private jets
I hope one condition of any bail out is that the top 3 levels of mgt are all fired along with the board of directors....and then put chainsaw Jack Welch in charge.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Again, as the Great Philosopher wrote, "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Joel, thanks for the tip on Dr. Pepper---my favorite drink. I guess I will sign up for my free soda. BTW, email me if you want to know about Mack. The Hosts had rather that we not discuss that here.
Richard
That said, I've driven the Fusion a couple of times (rental). Ford did a nice job with it, too. And, I'm certain it's thousands less than an Accord. Maybe because of size, I should be comparing the Accord to the Taurus. Certainly, the value factor might be closer between the two.
My two year old Tahoe has been another very good vehicle.
Point of all this is, as others have pointed out, the quality between makes is more a perception (a wrong one, at that). But, it takes awhile for that to change. What we don't know is how long, at least for GM and Ford, that will take. Or, if they'll be around that long.
As much as it pains me to say this, I don't see any way around Chrysler staying intact, at least in its present form. Daimler did them no favors (the "merger of equals", such as it was, was really the beginning of their downfall). Neither has Cerebus. Maybe Chryco gets broken into parts, and certain pieces will survive, but I don't hold out hope that can happen, either.
Damn, talk about BAD luck.
Or we'll just become a used car lot which might suck.
Well, now you’re in luck. I have 2 low mileage beauties that can help get you started with that.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
That is funny. It would be interesting to know what he thought about the Lexus.
I have sat in the back of a Ford Crown Victoria (a fancy name and great classic in the past) and I wonder why Ford is still in the business. Sink to the floor in those grubby plastic taxi seats - but the worst part from a design standpoint is nothing lines up. Most cars now can integrate the dash and the window sill and armrests, in the Crown Vic nothing lines up, and there are big gaps between the doors and the body. I would be ashamed to be putting these cars into the market.....when you see what can be done, even in much cheaper cars.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Good story Wesley...I would have liked to see you drive up in your lime green Pacer. Just curious, what do you drive today, hope you didn't keep the Pacer?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I am not 100% sure the perception is wrong. A few U.S. cars make the reliability lists, usually Buick and some Fords, but many of their other models are way down the list.
I just heard of a guy with a Honda with over 300,000 miles and only regular maintenance. We don't know if the U.S. cars will hold up over time....initial surveys might change over time.....we know Toyotas and Hondas can last a long time with fairly low maintenance. One reason they hold their value.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
So, can the Big 3 make a good car? Absolutely. I can't comment on Chrysler's current stable, as I think the only recent example I have been in is a rental Sebring. Wasn't impressed.
While I hope I don't own it that long, I'd say that my Tahoe is good for 150K miles, at least. But, you never know.
I expect my son will drive the wheels off the Accord at 150K+ miles (as he's doing with his Elantra) with little need for anything outside of routine maintenance.
Fact is, generally, cars are much better made today than they've ever been. The differences in quality between brands, if there is any at all, is very narrow.
Perception is reality, unfortunately. Not so long ago, if you said the name Hyundai, you'd think 3rd class car, and wouldn't be too far off the mark. Trade in values on Hyundai reflect that perception. Today, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one and feel totally justified in doing so.
Matter of fact, regardless of perception, Hyundai is taking a page out of Honda's and Toyota's play book from 40-45 years ago. Offer quality cars, at a cheap(er) price. They're even getting into the luxury car biz, just lie their Japanese branded counterparts.
Perceptions take time to change. If my Father were still living, he probably wouldn't speak to me for buying an Accord (or a Mazda, or a BMW). His perception was the Japanese and European brands were junk. Even though he was born in Italy, he considered (when they were marketed here) Fiat and Alfa Romeo junk, too. Clearly, decades of improvement were lost on him Same goes for GM or Ford. Regardless of my parents' experience with them, (which sometimes wasn't very good), their perception was that GM and Ford represented the pinnacle of quality automobiles.
Whew I’m glad I read that whole sentence. For a minute there (I’m a slow reader) I thought ‘isell’ was gonna go all mushy on ya.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
It's good becasue it opened up doors for me.
I started my 2 for 1 marketing blitz today. We'll see what kind of response we'll get to it. Hopefully a good one. All my ads (about 5 different sites/places) are free anyways so even if we gain one deal it'll be worth it.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Ha ha..picture this
3 guys in a Tall hat and a tail suit, stepping out of a Mercedes and standing in the Soup kitchen line :sick:
6 myths about GM Ford & Chryco
One main point he makes is this which is very informative:
They don't build small cars (myth or not). The Detroit Three build plenty of small cars--they're just not very good. In the U.S.News rankings of affordable small cars, for instance, seven out of 34 models are domestics. But the highest ranked--the Chevrolet Cobalt--lands at No. 20, while the top three are all Hondas. So, CEO Rick Wagoner is telling the truth when he says that in 2009 GM will offer 20 models (including a few mid-sized cars, a couple small sports cars, and a few others) that will get 30 mpg on the highway. The question is whether anybody will want to buy them--and if not, is it the government's job to subsidize uncompetitive products.
Patterns are set and your parents came to trust the Big 3, and they should because those were the best cars for the masses for many years - maybe 1946 to 1990. But few big 3 cars can match the foreign competition. I have rented Impalas, Pontiacs, Buicks and they are OK, but nothing special, they just miss the mark. By the way, he mentions Fusions in a positive way, but it is one of the few bright spots coming from the Big 3.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Curious - what will the deal be Boomer. Buy 2, get one free. Or Buy one Chrysler 300 and get a Nitro free?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Good deals to be had.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
More reasons for these morons to be chained, shacked, and whipped in public.
budget deficit
trade deficit
SS and Medicare deficit
presidential leadership deficit
Add 'em up over the last 40 or so years and it explains perfectly why we are up the creek.
Nobody did anything to address any of these deficits. They just grew worse and worse, with occasional blips of relief.
If that is actually true, our congressman should have gotten up and walked out.
There is no way anyone of those guys is worth more than an NFL quarterback. :confuse:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
budget deficit
trade deficit
SS and Medicare deficit
presidential leadership deficit
Add 'em up over the last 40 or so years and it explains perfectly why we are up the creek.
The same could be said of the Big 3. Ignore the problems, collect the big checks, and let the next guy worry about it.
But, building a quality vehicle is different than building a vehicle people want. Quality is just a subset of having something someone will buy. I can't remember the last time I drove a Cobalt....maybe never. I've seen them at the dealerships. And, quite frankly, they are something I probably wouldn't buy over a Civic or Corolla. But again, that's based on perception because I've not driven them.
So yeah.....they can't build small cars people will want, if the public's opinions are much like mine.
Conversely, I wouldn't buy a Toyota Sequoia over a Chevy Tahoe. Or, a Honda Pilot over a Ford Explorer, either. The Sequoia and Pilot may very well be fine vehicles. My perception is the Tahoe and the Explorer are better.....MY PERCEPTION!
That doesn't matter as it relates to the article, however.
The CEOs came across as extremely arrogant by flying in on their private jets. This is an important meeting. Wouldn't it have sent a better message if they DROVE one of their products to D.C.? I don't buy that anyone is so important that they need to have their pampered butts hauled by private jet. To ad insult to injury, they're asking the American public for a handout....begging us would be a more appropriate term. They've shuttered many plants, putting many thousands of people out of work. But, they aren't themselves willing to give up any of their salaries, bonuses?
Sorry, no soup for you. A little humility goes a long way. I'd tie any bailout to a 50% cut in upper management salaries, and no bonuses until their respective companies are profitable again....just to start.
I'm glad that our gov't is grilling these guys. Said it before, the UAW and the auto companies went hand-in-hand down this road. Now, they're jointly going to have to come up with a plan to get themselves out of it.....over the long haul, for us to LOAN them the money.
Let's say thay would fly coach or business class to DC, I'm sure the media would find a way to turn the story and make it sound like these guys are sucking up to congress (by flying coach) but will be back to their old ways after they get the money.
Maybe they all have yearly contracts with their private jet companies that they pre paid before, I don't know.
Either way I'm not trying to defend them. But let's look at the whole picture. Should they have been more humble about it? Should they have driven their own products to DC as GG suggested? That probably would have given them an ounce of sympathy.
As for giving up salaries, yeah, they could have offered that as well. Would it change anything? Probably not. But once again, they would have gained some sympathy or some respect from whoever is listening to them right now.
Are politicians any different though? They'll be happy to give money (your money) or contracts to their buddies too, if they can get something out of it. If it turns out to be a bad financial move, they'll shrug their shoulders and blame somebody or something else for it. At election time, they'll pretend like nothing ever happenend and they'll be begging you, the voters to reelect them. No difference in my opinion.
So what I think the big questions is:
How do you make CEOs more accountable, and now responsible with taxpayer money, especially when so much is at stake?
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Yeah, sure, PRETEND to be humble and contrite, just for a day. Why not?
that was one my criteria for purchasing since both my kids are old enough to drive.
an accord with a moonroof drops down a class in size, from one without it.
mulally did have a top of the line lexus, which he referred to as the best car in the world, before he went to work for ford.
we are going to the local auto show tomorrow. my wife is looking for a new ride.
But, I've found out that in general, if someone's got their own skin in the game, they tend to be more fastidious and more dedicated to the job at hand, and try a whole lot harder, than if they didn't. So, if they agreed to take a 50% pay cut, me....we....the taxpayers, who they're begging to, might be more willing to say "hey, I'm willing to lend a hand. Show me your plan".
I'm so livid over this issue I sent a message to my Senator and Congressman. May or may not get read. But, I at least want them to know that this sort of thing is unacceptable from managers of large corporations asking us for money to haul their fannies out of the fire.
you can bet from here on, someone will be watching how those washington politicians get around. for their own good, they should not have opened that little can of worms.
Mulally was named the President and CEO of Ford Motor Company on September 5, 2006, succeeding William Clay Ford, Jr., who remained as Executive Chairman of the company's Board of Directors.[9] Mulally drew flak over calling his Lexus LS the 'finest car in the world', just about as Ford announced his selection as CEO. [10] [11] He took over "The Way Forward" restructuring plan at Ford to turn-around its massive losses and declining market share.[12] Mulally revived the Ford Taurus and his cost cutting led to the company's first profitable quarter in two years.[13]
And according to USATODAY, the CEO's vehicle of choice fall under the following:
BMW 13%
MB 12%
Toyota 10%
Porsche 7%
with some Masserati, Ferrari, and other high dollar brands thrown in the mix.
Mulally is now said to "rotate through an array" of Ford vehicles. link title
I didn;t look up to see what Wagoner or Nardelli drive. Wagoner strikes me as a Suburban driver and Nardelli probably drives a BMW. Anyone care to guess?
Toyota Venza
Toyota is making a big deal out of the Venza's three rear seats, especially rear legroom.
They split 60/40, and can recline up to 14 degrees from the vertical. Legroom at 993 mm is generous. But an Edge has 13 mm more.
If you read the review this gets Toyota more into the big interior field which is where Toy-Hon are lacking for large size North American butts!
I haven't seen cars from Detroit that are this innovative and yet appeal to the masses. The Fusion is a refined Ford, but it is not innovative in any way.
Is the Camaro inovative...not really, a Mustang copy. Edge is an X3 inferior copy. Pontiac Solstice is about as innovative as Detroit gets.....but it is a poor copy of a Mazda Miata. I guess Volt is innovative, if you need a car that will go 40 miles before needing to be plugged in.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Isn't there a citizen factor where far too many are working off the Kennedy saying, Ask now what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you?
Now we're up to tax refunds for people who don't even pay income taxes... The media feeds off these people and their votes. I shouldn't get started...
As for the cars and reliability, I think the playing field equalized in 2002-2003. Lots of people still suffer under old ways of thinking that their car favorite brand is better for whatever reason. But as I peruse the forums and sources, it looks like they all need repairs. I don't believe the goes 300,000 mi and only the brakes got changed stories apply to 99% of the models sold in a brand.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,