Stories from the Sales Frontlines

jwilliams2 · March 2009

Even the used car inventory is usually not up to date. With most dealers selling 2 to 4 times more new cars, I wouldn't hold out much hope for any accuracy.

On the new car plus side, most dealers will offer to swap in or order exactly what you want if they don't have it. Done this many times.

roadburner · March 2009

I agree; I can go to the US Ford or Jeep sites and look at dealer inventory and the window stickers of new vehicles. Why can't BMW USA do something similar?

driver100 · March 2009

What we were discussing was the lack of new car inventory on many high line websites.

I don't see much advantage in having a web site for new car inventory. You can go to the dealer and they will order or exchange cars with other dealers. I think most people would go to the dealer, make sure the car feels right, and if they like it choose colors and equipment. Used cars are different - you are looking for something in particular, you don't order one from the factory, and dealers don't exchange models.

Is that how lazy we Americans are getting, now you have to sit at home and buy a new car on line while you sit on your _ _ _.(as Jay Leno would say)?

snakeweasel · March 2009

Even the used car inventory is usually not up to date. With most dealers selling 2 to 4 times more new cars, I wouldn't hold out much hope for any accuracy.

Just out of curiosity I watch the website of the dealership I just bought from to see how long it took for my car to disappear from it. I bought Friday night and it was off the site by monday afternoon.

driver100 · March 2009

Why can't BMW USA do something similar?

Because it won't sell as many cars maybe? Also, why would a dealer do that if they don't have to. As I just said, you go and order your car and choose a color and equipment from the dealer. I don't think there's as much room to manuevre on price with BMW, they don't have an over abundance of dealers fighting amongst themselves. With Mercedes dealers have territories. They sometimes break the rules but you are supposed to buy from your nearest dealer, and dealers aren't supposed to get customers from outside their area. Buying a quality new car should be different than ordering a DVD from Amazon. At least have the courtesy of going to the dealers. You can see the colors and get general prices from the companies web site. :confuse:

snakeweasel · March 2009

Is that how lazy we Americans are getting, now you have to sit at home and buy a new car on line while you sit on your _ _ _.(as Jay Leno would say)?

I wouldn't say it is lazy as much as it is efficient. I can view the inventory of several dealerships in the time it takes me to drive to one. Eliminating dealerships that don't have cars I like and/or want saves time, money and gas.

jwilliams2 · March 2009

I wouldn't say it is lazy as much as it is efficient. I can view the inventory of several dealerships in the time it takes me to drive to one. Eliminating dealerships that don't have cars I like and/or want saves time, money and gas.

Probably not the most efficient way. These inventories change hourly, let alone daily. You may "eliminate" a dealership that doesn't show the car you want, and they just received two this afternoon.

Or you may drive to one that shows the car in stock, but sells it just before you get there.

Best way is to do your research, lock in your price (via email if you want) at your dealer of choice, and let them worry about finding your car. And don't pay any extra for them to secure it from across town!

traindriver · March 2009

You can go to the dealer and they will order or exchange cars with other dealers.

Absolutely. The last four cars I bought were brought in to the local dealer from somewhere else. But, I already had seen the color and knew what I was going to be getting. Pictures, brochure art, and websites aren't very reliable indicators of what something is going to look like in person though. Mystic Jade on the 09 Maxima is a color that needs to be seen in person. How "pearly" is the pearl white? What color is "smokestone," lol? BMW's monaco blue looks black in most pictures. I'd cut my wrists if I thought I was getting sky blue and "laguna seca" blue came off the truck. I suspect a dealer would flip if they bring in something and I say "no way -- that is not at all what the color in the book looks like."

Been there, done that with house paint. The beige on the color chart went on the walls as peach; no Golden Girls peach on my walls thank you. Pack up and go home, painters, until we get the right color. :sick: :sick: :mad:

I wouldn't say it is lazy as much as it is efficient. I can view the inventory of several dealerships in the time it takes me to drive to one. Eliminating dealerships that don't have cars I like and/or want saves time, money and gas.

Snake is right. Using BMW as an example, there are about 5 dealers within 2 hours of here. The closest is at least 1 hour / 55 miles away. North, south, east or west? -- eenie meenie miney moe. If the inventory is online, I will know who to approach first.

sterlingdog · March 2009

What am I going to do with you? You're a smart fella but you never remember things. You must be on overload at work. Think back as to why I had to change gears. The '06, a Chrysler Touring convertible, had to have a new radio/cd player, a new convertible top motor, two tie rods, and the transmission was jerking forward at stop signals. The warranty then ran out.

Now don't get confused. The new car is also a Chrysler Touring convertible. It is completely restyled from the '06. It's sturdier, drives better, looks better, has the hidden top feature, etc. I would tell you the beautiful color combination, but you don't care. :P I kept the Explorer. I now have two vehicles that I love.

I'm the fool that considered buying a CRV from you next year when we go out west. If I walk up to you on the lot and say that I am Richard, don't you dare give me that blank stare.

Richard

roadburner · March 2009

In my case, I'd like to know what cars are out there, and how they are equipped. That's how I wound up buying my Mazdaspeed 3 from a Cincinnati dealer. I was able to determine that Kings Mazda had several MS3s in stock without the $3K ADM that the idiot Louisville dealers were tacking on. Oh yeah, Kings also let me test drive one without a signed buyers order- something else I wasn't able to do in Louisville...

jmonroe · March 2009

If you have ever seen a video of a little dog attacking the mail that is being stuck thru the mail slot in a door, then you have seen my wife when the subject of doc fees comes up ! I

Why didn't you tell me she was like that before I made the now infamous doc fee call. I would have gladly let her do the dirty work.

Thanks for nothing. :mad:

jmonroe

traindriver · March 2009

True, options are important too. If you were looking for a MS3, a regular 3 isn't going to work for you for sure. Thankfully you were able to see that Cincy had the right thing for you. For equipment level, only Honda comes to mind as one that is easily compared. An EX-L V6 is the same whether it is in Miami or Seattle. As best as I can tell, just pick the color.

sterlingdog · March 2009

My 4-square experience last Friday was about like yours. It was that dumb Lincoln dealer who wanted me to sign a blank 4-square.

My luck has been as bad as yours. I drove the car on Monday when I bought it. Tuesday, I drove the Explorer out of town to work. I had Wednesday to enjoy the convertible. It started raining yesterday, turned cold today, and will rain until next Wednesday. I refuse to take it out of the garage until the rain ends next week. When we went out to dinner tonight, my wife asked if we were driving the new car. I said we couldn't because it was raining. She just rolled her eyes and climbed in the Explorer. There are times when I think that she doesn't understand me.

Richard

sterlingdog · March 2009

"...peach truck."

LMAO!!! Some days you are soooooo good!

Richard

jmonroe · March 2009

I like the Dunlop Direzza Star Spec; it's an excellent street/track tire.

Ill tell him about those but he has Perrellis that are fairly new so it will be a while until he needs new tires, unless those Perrellis dont perform well.

The Hawk HP Plus is a great track day pad. Stock rotors should be more than adequate for his first few events. I'd stay away from drilled rotors. Tell him that it is crucial that he change the brake fluid no more than three to six months before any event. And he needs to use a DOT 4 fluid. I like ATE Super Blue Racing, although Castrol LMA will work in a pinch.

He said he heard that he should stay away from the drilled rotors so he went with the slotted rotors but I dont know the name nor do I know the name of the pads.

That sounds like good advice about the brake fluid. If he decides to do it himself (really with my help) Im going to be the one that operates the brake pedal this time, he can be the one operating the wheel cylinder bleed screws. Ive shown him how to do it many times so now is a good time for him to get on the floor.

Don't let them turn him into a ballet dancer, for gosh sakes!

I dont think there is any real fear of that happening. That little guy is a pretty clever kid and tough too. You should see him play soccer. Ever since he heard his Grandmother and Mother comment about their displeasure of him going out on that Kart course hes been working on them. I heard him say, I drive my little car (motorized Wrangler) pretty good so what makes you think Im not ready to move up to something with more power. If you ever saw how well he handles that thing youd know hes going to win this argument. Im going to enjoy watching the battle.

Ill be seeing the family tomorrow so Ill pass on your advice.

Thanks for the additional info.

jmonroe

roadburner · March 2009

I heard him say, I drive my little car (motorized Wrangler) pretty good so what makes you think Im not ready to move up to something with more power. If you ever saw how well he handles that thing youd know hes going to win this argument. Im going to enjoy watching the battle.

That's how my son got started. He drove his Wrangler up and down our driveway for several years. He must have set some sort of distance record as the round trip was over a mile and he drove it almost every day.

Let me know if you have any more questions, I'm glad to help.

driver100 · March 2009

. I can view the inventory of several dealerships in the time it takes me to drive to one

I don't think the information on line is that valuable. The car with the color and options you want might be on a lot 5 miles away...and it might not be prepared yet. The chances you will get to drive or even see the color and get the options on a dealers car near you are minimal. If you go to the dealer they can find a car in the correct color and they might have a demonstrator similar to what you are looking for. You can snoop around on a Sunday to try to find your color at any dealership.

It is like doing it backwards, you are going to find the car you want (must be man's hunting instinct at work) and then will try to negotiate the price......why not go to the dealer, get a price and some useful information, and let him do the hunting?

nortsr1 · March 2009

Your post certainly means well, however; we (customers in Florida) are charged $499.00 to $699.00 for a dealer fee and they will tell you that it is a necessary "law" implemented by the state or give some long ridiculous explanation that is totally ridiculous. I have bought my last three cars down here (I live in Florida) and each time I got up and started walking out. When they finally agreed to add the so called "FEE" of $599.00 to my trade-in to make up the difference...then....and only then... would I purchase the car.
I am in no way looking at you as "low life"...but....you will never convince me the a "FEE" that high is necessary. Perhaps $100.00...but...not $499.00 to $699.00.
Down here, we can't even purchase a OEM extended warranty on the net, out of State, because of their ridiculous insurance law.

jmonroe · March 2009

Let me know if you have any more questions, I'm glad to help.

This is very coincidental, as I'm reading your post, my son called and said the rotors and pads came yesterday so hes going to put them on today. Of course he asks, "what are you doing today"? :surprise: So, now I know what I will be doing today. I always get calls from him like that.

I passed on the info you gave me and he said that the guy hes been blogging with told him pretty much what youve been saying. My son said the pads he got are the Hawk HP S (?). I think he said the Hawk HP Plus werent available for the Altima he has. The rotors he got were Power Slot (?). Now hes going to buy the stainless steel braided caliper hoses for something like $125 for a set of 4. So when he puts those on he's going to put in the better brake fluid.

Yeah, hes getting into this alright.

jmonroe

nortsr1 · March 2009

Well, I do just the opposite of your advice. I go onto the dealer websites until I find the exact car, model, and color I am looking for....and...then I call the dealer to see if they "definitley" have that car in stock and then start to negotiate.
It saves me the time that it involves to go to all the dealerships. The MSRP and Invoice are always availabe at Edmunds, plus rebates, etc. I then start from invoice (or below) and start to negotiate.I also get the best trade-in advice from the Edmunds site ( trade-in, sell myself price... and dealer asking price, from several differnt sites KBB, NADA, Cars.com, etc.
The last three vehicles have been puchased in this manner with very good results.

tjc78 · March 2009

You can snoop around on a Sunday to try to find your color at any dealership.

I find that the absolute best way to shop. Find your "dream car" on the lot take down the stock # (or snap a quick pic of the window sticker with your cell phone) do your research on invoice, incentives etc. Then, goto the dealer during the week and start negotiations. Of course they could sell it Monday morning or have a trade pending with another dealer, but then at least you know what you want and they can find it for you.

snakeweasel · March 2009

Probably not the most efficient way. These inventories change hourly, let alone daily.

True but for used cars you still you have a better chance then just a shot in the dark and showing up at just any dealership and walking the used car lot.

The only other more efficient way is e-mailing or calling every dealership and asking if they have what you are looking for and if not to call you if something close comes in. If that would even work.

New cars is a different story unless its an odd color and/or accessory combo, but then again you could always order it.

biker4 · March 2009

And there is no way possible easy way for you to legalize your transaction as a consumer without the F&I department doing so for you.

...and you may want to keep that way, but it is not true. Virtually no one knows that before a car has a title it has a Certificate of Origin (which can be provided to the consumer) with which the title is obtained at the DMV. Any consumer can certainly legalize the car buying transaction without any F&I involvement.

snakeweasel · March 2009

refuse to take it out of the garage until the rain ends next week

Here is a tip, the top goes up. :P

The day after I bought it we had rain of Biblical proportions (some areas got up to three inches) and I was eager to take it out to see how it handled on wet streets and to see if there were any leaks. It handled great and it was as tight as a drum.

Now this weekend it might get warm enough for me to have the top down with my nordic blood, but not for the wife with her south pacific blood.

Every summer I always see convertibles on nice warm sunny days with the top up and I think to myself "what a waste of a ragtop". I vow to have that top down every chance I get. :shades: I already have stored a hat in the car for when I have the top down as the good Lord has found it necessary to remove any natural protection on the top of my head.

snakeweasel · March 2009

I don't think the information on line is that valuable.

It was extremely valuable in my recent purchase. I saw the car on the lot and went to the dealers website and found all the information I needed. The year, trim, options, mileage and price. Did a little online research and found that their internet price was well below what Edmunds and Kelly Blue Book said the retail price should be. This all took me 5-10 minutes in the comfort of my own home without bothering any sales person.

Now mind you that the post I was replying to did mention used vehicles. I think thats the best approach for used vehicles. New vehicles are a different story as a dealer should be able to find or order a car if they don't have it in their inventory.

isellhondas · March 2009

Well, I can name probably 20 pf the kids that were in my Kindergarden class but I may not remember what I had for dinner last night.

I was almost sure it was a Chrysler you had before. I know it's been redesigned and I know it's a different color. Blue! See, I remembered!

But, it remains a Chrysler and I'm just surprised you would take another chance!

oldfarmer50 · March 2009

"...The majority of people that I come in contact with on the internet are much more disrespectful of me right off the bat than the people that come in off the street..."

The answer in a word "concequences". If someone unloads on you in person they might get popped, not so on the computer. Same reason people will flip you off while driving but not face to face.

deltheking · March 2009

Hi, I know Sundays are the best day to have a look at the car u like at a dealer`s lot.
If it`s a new car u are looking for,, it is easier,, u look at the sticker,the options,stock#,the MSRP etc etc.

It is tougher for a used car- as they do not need to post the mileage or the price or the total options list.-- just the year and the car name.

My question is -- Is it legal to go visit the dealership on a sunday when it is closed? Can it be considered trespassing?Or, do dealers encourage u to just visit them,even if it`s a sunday.

I bet,, definitely,,,the security cameras would be there watching u and recording u -- so ,in that sense,,when u go later in the week to shop for a specific car,,the dealer may recognize u and would know that u were there at the dealership on sunday.

sbell4 · March 2009

it really is simple math.

Assume you own a dealership and you sell 300 units each month @ $2000/copy without a doc fee.

300 x $2000= $600,000

Assume you own a dealership and you sell 250 units each month @ $2000/copy with a doc fee of $500

250 x $2000 = $500,000
250 x $500 = $125,000

Would you have a problem with making more money, having less floorplan and overhead and making more money?

oldfarmer50 · March 2009

"...I want to see how long my lemon stays on the lot..."

You mean your "gently used" carefully driven and perfectly maintained auto that was only driven by an elderly gentleman never over 30mph?

Ever wonder if the people who sold your program car to the dealer said the same thing you did? :P

oldfarmer50 · March 2009

"...The "choochie" calls..."

Isn't that what the navy called shore leave? I never would have guessed that all those guys running off the ship were so interested in doc fees.

morin2 · March 2009

There have been thefts and vandalism on lots, so the trespassing laws are being enforced in some areas. If there is a sign indicating "no trespassing" or closed or any sort of entrance gate that is closed - it should be clear that the dealer does not want people there unattended.

Unfortunately, those who view lots as their sunday (or night) free parts bins cry racism when arrested, and the courts are too lenient with thieves - of all types.

oldfarmer50 · March 2009

"...how would some people like if a job interviewer brings in 10 candidates and says they'll hire the one who'll work for the least amount of money, and get them to fight over it..."

I used to work at a company where they did that AFTER they hired everybody.

graphicguy · March 2009

Boy, you guys were really busy posting yesterday....about 4 pages worth.

percussionist.....if a dealer is going to charge a "fee" to transfer a car (in this case, ~20 miles), I'm OK with that. Make it part of the deal....show it on the paperwork BEFORE I sign my name. Understand, it may, or may not be a deal breaker. But, at least give me the courtesy of knowing what exactly I'm spending my money on.

Their attitude was "it's no big deal....standard operating procedure....normal course of business fees, etc".

Well, it is a big deal because the money is coming out of my pocket. The fact that they decided to disclose it AFTER we came to an agreement on price is what caused me to walk. Yeah, they did rescind the fee after I protested. But, the mere fact that they tried to "sneak" it in on me, and the subsequent attitude that it was "normal" didn't sit well with me. Nor, did the fact that it was sprung on me after we had what I thought was a "deal".

That's not the way to get my business.

The deal was skinny to begin with, I don't remember the exact numbers, but I know there wasn't much money made on the deal. Adding that little "kicker" for the transport fee was little more than a way to add a bit to it. IIRC, that $300 transport fee was more than the delta between the price we agreed to and the invoice.

I even offered to go to their other store to do the deal when they informed me what I wanted wasn't on the local lot (my son and I test drove a more loaded version of the Nissan). They wanted nothing to do with that idea. They said they'd go pick it up for me "as a courtesy". I didn't know they were going to charge me for that "courtesy".

imidazol97 · March 2009

>Secondly for the second half of 2008 the IRS mileage was 58.5 cents a mile.

But that includes depreciation and other costs that won't apply here. The simple driving cost of gas and tires on the cars is minor to the dealer. They will use a used car off the lot or a demo so that someone else ends up paying the lost value when they buy that used car.

snakeweasel · March 2009

But that includes depreciation and other costs that won't apply here.

I am presuming that the dealership would not use a car thats in inventory but a "company" vehicle that they use for running errands. That is why I didn't include the mileage on the car being transported.

roadburner · March 2009

My son said the pads he got are the Hawk HP S (?). I think he said the Hawk HP Plus werent available for the Altima he has.

The HPS pads will do fine- at least until he becomes a track junkie. He can also use the HPS on the street. HP Plus pads can be pretty noisy unless they are good and hot. I'm going to go with HP Plus on the Mazdaspeed(assuming I keep it) because I want to see if better brakes, stickier tires, and a cold air intake will allow me to keep up with 335s and M3s in the instructor sessions... :P

The rotors he got were Power Slot (?).

He probably could get buy with stock rotors, but slotted ones are a nice upgrade.

Now hes going to buy the stainless steel braided caliper hoses for something like $125 for a set of 4. So when he puts those on he's going to put in the better brake fluid.

Make sure the SS lines are coated. Braided lines without a coating can actually saw through wiring harnesses and suspension parts- even if only a little contact is taking place. If his car is a manual he may also be able to get a SS clutch hose as well. I have one on my ti; it's just a bit of additional insurance.

Yeah, hes getting into this alright.

Sounds good... :shades:

sterlingdog · March 2009

I can see how you would be surprised that I went with another Chrysler. First, with the restyle it seems so different from the old one. Secondly, one bad lemon doesn't make them all bad. Finally, it is difficult to find a full size convertible in that price range without spending another $20k-$30k. I realize that you get what you pay for, but I'm hoping this will be a good one. I bought what I thought was a nice Caddy once and it turned out to be a lemon. I guess it is hard to always know.

I'm so proud of you for remembering the color! Though I know that you don't care about color, I think that you would like this cobalt blue with the black top. It is so sharp.

Richard

jipster · March 2009

Would you have a problem with making more money, having less floorplan and overhead and making more money?

I don't believe the issue was making more money. It's how that money is made. i.e loan shark like mark-ups on some doc. fees (Florida), smoke and mirrors, screamer ads etc etc etc.

sterlingdog · March 2009

"Here is a tip, the top goes up."

LMAO!! To be what I consider a serious poster, you do have a great sense of humor at times.

You gave me a valuable idea. Though I didn't want to get it messed up in the rain this weekend, I had better drive it and make sure there are no leaks. Thanks.

Like you, I believe in having the top down as much as possible. If the temperature doesn't dip below 40 degrees, I often put on a coat, turn on the heater, and go for a ride. My wife has that South Pacific problem as well. She says that I am crazy when I do that.

Yes, I also wear the hat---for the same reason that you do.

Richard

oregonboy · March 2009

I can see how you would be surprised that I went with another Chrysler.... I guess it is hard to always know.

It's hard to know, but I think that Isell would say that you can improve your odds by buying a Honda.

fezo · March 2009

I remember years ago there was rumor that Honda would put out a convertible Accord. That would be just about perfect in my book. Well, now with the newer Accord looking like it does maybe a convertible Mazda 6 would be perfect.

On my Celica I had to replace the rear curtain on the top. The top guy says the top has shrunk a bit but not where he'd do anything about it. Since he'd make good money replacing it I'll believe him. The top is absolutely watertight (which is what started this) but a touch more wind noise since the repair.

So last week we had this snow at the beginning of the week. I bring our van through an automatic car wash to knock all the salt off and in front of me is a guy with a 350Z convertible. Who the heck puts a convertible through an automatic car wash?? Good way to ruin a top!

madmanmoo · March 2009

Yes, doc fees are mostly profit. Work your out the door deal.

If you want complaints about junk charges, direct your attention to your mortgage broker.

sterlingdog · March 2009

"You mean 'gently used' carefully driven and perfectly maintained auto..."

You got the ad just about right. It went on the web page yesterday as "a well maintained vehicle with low mileage just waiting for its next enthusiastic owner!" I did LMAO at the enthusiastic part. Actually, I WAS enthusiastic---to get rid of it!

"Ever wonder if the people who sold your program car to the dealer said the same thing you did?"

Please!!! Don't even go there!!! If it turns out to be another lemon, I'm just going to lie on this thread and brag about how wonderful it is. I just couldn't take the "I told you so." from you and Isell. :P

Richard

oldfarmer50 · March 2009

"...I don't know who got the job..."

It was probably #1 because she was cute.

fezo · March 2009

Caution for convertible owners...

golic · March 2009

"...I want to see how long my lemon stays on the lot..."

--- So how much over your trade do they have it listed at??

oldfarmer50 · March 2009

"...the security cameras would be there watching u..."

A long time ago (on this board, I think) someone posted how outraged they were that they received a call from a dealer after they had done some Sunday window shopping. Evidently, the dealer had gotten the posters name address and phone number by reading their licence plate with their cameras and then looking up the info. Expect to be watched even on Sunday.

Of course, it's probably not a good idea to do your browsing by hopping over the fence at midnight.

sterlingdog · March 2009

Good grief! You spend your hard earned money on a convertible and then put it through an automatic car wash?! How can some people use such poor judgment?

Richard

sterlingdog · March 2009

Yes, I would think that Isell would say that, too. Still, he can be pretty diplomatic at times while getting his point across.

Richard

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