"P.S. The G6 shouldn't be around for much longer since they are supposably going RWD and thus will be replaced. or deleted."
After one generation the G6 nanme is dead? Why after one generation of G6 would they ax the name? I understand they are going RWD for the Pontiac but only after one generation of G6? It just doesn;t sound like a good business move to me. I mean they just axed the Grand AM name a few years ago.
IF Pontiac is going RWD will they have a mid-size car to take the place of the G6 and at the same price point?
I wish GM would just keep names of cars around fir awhile like Honda does with the Accord and Nissan does with the Sentra. GM has the habit of renaming and killing name plates so quickly sometimes. I was hoping the habit of renaming and killing names of vehicles was over once Bob Lutz arrived at GM.
not for that long. As much as cars improve over time there is no way I would be content with the same car for 200k miles. I dont care how well your 1990 Toyota runs today, its still terribly outdated and slow compared to what's offered today. Some people only want a car to take them from A to B and could care less about features and styling and safety. For those people, driving a car for 20 years is fine.
You have got to be joking, the IS is the only model Lexus has that appeals to younger people. I know very well that the IS has young owners, but its the exception not the rule. Older people buy the ES, LS and SC. I would say the buyers of the RX and GS are more in the middle, but definitely not young.
"They did have to give rebates on their suv(like everyone else). GM on the other hand was too busy hyping big rebates, showing what a good ole American company they are, and the 100,000 mile warranty to tell you just why you should buy which models. And, which models were fuel efficient."
I think the 100,000 mile warranty is good because people who are suspect about GM reliability are protected by a long warranty in case something goes wrong with the car.
The Saabs of the early 90s were not engineered by GM. At that time I believe GM had a 50% stake in Saab but Saabs were not using GM platforms or engines back then. GM and Ford have improved the reliability of Saab and Jaguar, respectively.
I wouldn't place your Saab's failure at GM's doorstep. The first Saab that I know of that shared a lot of components with other GM vehicles was the original 9-5 which came out in the late 90s.
I dont mean to suggest that I have a problem sticking with Toyota for the rest of their lives. I do have a problem with people defending the poor value and service offered by many import companies by saying "well its worth it because their vehicles are reliable". First of all, many people today lease cars so the whole notion of "Buy Japanese because their products last 200k miles" is kind of pointless. If Toyota or Honda offers me a car with nice styling for similar money I might consider it. I will not however pay $3000 more for a car that is likely to be only incrementally more reliable than a domestic car that offers similar space and performance.
Escalade, CTS and SRX. Most of the 60+ Caddy drivers I see are driving the DTS and sometimes STS. I have seen people in their 40s and 50s driving all other Cadillac buyers.
Trust me, Toyota in general is seeing its average owner age creep up and I believe its near 50 right now. Even Scion did little to reverse this in spite of the psuedo hip ads. An elderly (70+) couple in my neighborhood has that Scion box thing.
I guess my point is, why have a problem with any reason that a consumer uses to select a vehicle that will be paid for with his or her money? For some people, an older Dodge Neon will do because, "well, it's worth it just to have that unique purple paint."
If you want to buy only Yugos because they are, in your mind, the most reliable automotive machinery out there, be my guest. Whatever blows your hair back.
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Japan's auto market isnt open like the one in the US. I dont know how they do it, but I assure you there is protectionism at work and this is no secret. GM, Ford, DC, BMW, etc. all do not have a substantial presence in Japan. Are you suggesting all of their respective cars are crap and that is why they dont sell in Japan?
" I also notice a lot HAPPY domestic owners do not consider anything else either so what's your point? "
Outside of UAW territory I doubt there are many domestic vehicle owners who would refuse to consider an import. I surely do not know anyone with a domestic who wouldn't drive anything else. I do however know people that drive Toyotas who bash everything that isn't Japanese even though they have very little specific experience to back it up.
"You forgot to put "IMO"... "
Dont need to, with the exception the TL and G35 you will be hard pressed to find many great value propositions. Price the Camry V6 and Altima SE with a few pricey option packages and compare to domestic cars and you will see what I am talking about. Acura does OK on value, but Lexus and Infiniti have gotten very expensive. They are still somewhat cheaper than the absurdly priced Germans, but that isn't saying much. As long as you only compare Japanese brands with other Japanese brands they look good.
Do you really believe the majority of buyers want to keep their cars for 200k miles? Most people dont keep a car more than 5-6 years as far as I can tell. When you look at the trade ins at the average car dealer most of the vehicles will be 3-10 years I would say. we all want a car that will start every morning and by and large all cars will do that for us. Now those who are worried about reliability after 10 years and 150K+ miles may need to stick with the Japansese brands to be safe, but this is not an issue for the majority of buyers. How many 20 year models of any type do you see on the road today? I don't see many and out of the older cars I do see the majority are old GM vehicles.
True that, but I want to know if all the people espousing this "Why buy GM if they were unreliable in the past?" logic would consider anything but a Toyota or Honda. I mean honestly, GM, Ford, Chrysler, Mistubishi, Hyundai, MB, Jaguar, Porshe, VW and Audi were all known for lackluster quality at one time or another which basically only leaves the big Japanese 3 and Suburu. If you really believe CR than you are basically left with Toyota and Honda because they are the only two brands where all vehicles consistently do well in CR's results.
Would you not consider any of those other brands because they have produced less than stellar vehicles within the last 10-20 years or does that only apply to GM? As a happy Toyota owner would you ever venture onto a VW lot when searching for a new car even though your Toyota has never had any problems?
All of the arguments being made here about passing on GM products because you KNOW you will get guaranteed reliability are valid, but they dont explain how MB, Audi, VW, Hyundai, etc. continue to sell plenty of cars in the US. This goes to my point that people are much less willing to give the Big 3 another chance than a foreign company who has made poor quality products. The most perplexing is MB because their products are very overpriced and yet people are willing to pay more to get a problematic vehicle while thumbing their noses at those intellectually (and financially) inferior motorists driving pedestrian Detroit iron, including Cadillac.
IMO, you are overgeneralizing based on your stated desire for horsepower and the latest in style and gadgets. Plenty of people keep their cars for a long time -- I'm one of them. It's cheaper in the long run, that's for sure, because you don't take the huge hit in depreciation by trading frequently.
Obviously, cars that are more than 20 years old ARE more apt to be GM models, if only because GM was by far the largest player back then. Most of these will be the larger cars, like Lemko's Park Avenue, and of course, the C/K pickups. But I did see a Chevette the other day, the first time in a long while I've spotted one of those!
There are still a fair number of Volvo 240s running around in my neck of the woods, and this model was discontinued after 1993. I may notice them more because I owned one.
The champ among my co-workers in (car) longevity is a 1982 M-B 300 diesel -- it's a daily driver.
There's little to be gained in expecting people to be reasonable in their car buying. A lot of it is based on superstitious behavior.
My grandfather told the story that he'd had the steering wheel come off in his hands on a new '49 Ford while he was driving it. True? I have no idea, but I know that he never bought a Ford, and that none of his 4 children ever did.
My immediate family had been Chrysler people until a 72 Plymouth soured my Dad on them - probably no worse than other 70's U.S. cars of the day, but a lot worse than the Chryslers of the 60's had been. End of Chryslers for us.
My folks then had a rather bad experience with a mid-70's Caprice - among other things the rear axle was mounted crooked, and it too had the classic 70's hard start problems. Recall that the 70's were the days that Consumers Reports published build code decoders so you could avoid buying a car assembled on a Monday or a Friday (seriously!)
At the same time, my Dad discovered Honda - I remember him telling me with delighted amazement that he'd driven 90,000 miles and done nothing but change the plugs and the oil. The combination of those two events ended our domestic car ownership days. They later switched to Toyota from Honda, but never returned to Domestic. I've told of my mother's refusal to consider a Buick at age 72.
As for me personally, every time I considered returning to the Domestic fold, another horror story from a friend or a rental/company car experience would stop me.
A company K-car that would stall at intersections if you didn't turn off the AC. Until the 300 there hasn't been a Chrysler design that impressed me enough to give them a chance.
A Ford dealer who fixed a co-workers power steering fluid leak by replacing the rack -without asking her. I wanted an 84 Taurus but my friend who bought one (and liked it a lot) had trouble getting warranty work done at a dealer 100 miles away from where he'd bought it, and I was moving out of state.
A Japanese friend who'd bought a Z-24 Cavalier with my help. The wheel bearings failed at 12,100 miles. The service writer fixed it under warranty, but did it by lying to GM about the mileage on the car. That told me that, under GM rules, at 12,001 miles I'd be on my own. No thanks GM. I have a friend who is a GM master mechanic and (admittedly he's a grouch) he tells tales of design and zone manager decisions that worry me. OK: here's one: Avalanche removable tailgates and bad hinges (installed backwards or something). The tailgates can fall out on the highway. GM says to replace both hinges any time an Avalanche comes in for any service (A secret recall like Toyota?). The Zone manager tells the mechanics to replace only hinges that show signs of wear and don't worry about the rest.
Sounds like the same old GM to me.
The stories go on, but the theme is the same. Bad experiences in the family or by friends, long, long ago. Not much to do with today, but they still haunt like any superstition.
Any small thing that happens confirms my superstition that domestic cars are something to avoid and that Japanese cars are better:
Last night I'm driving home. I'm stopped at a light behind a Toyota Camry. Suddenly I smell burning oil. "Huh", I say to myself in surprise, "Must be one of those sludged Toyota's I've heard about but never seen. I'll be darned." The Toyota pulls away too slowly for me so I change lanes. To my surprise there's a Cadillac STS in front of the Toyota, and THAT's where the oil is coming from. Bang! The superstition is reinforced.
You can discount, or disprove any of these individual stories but the problem is that I believe them enough to make me cautious... just like I don't walk under a ladder. Superstition? Sure, but I'm not the only one.
This is what GM has to overcome and it's going to take time, or something spectacular.
My idea? I'd like to see a Cadillac on a special stand in Times Square, with every feature on the car running day and night for a year. All the doors, the hood, and the trunk opening and closing a million times. The wipers running. The windows going up and down; the radio on.
Cadillac Mechanics in uniforms come out at midnight to change the oil, ideally with the car still running somehow.
Racking up a million miles of "Look how dependable we are now! Buy a Cadillac!"
You see similar events where Mercedes or BMW et al, run cars on a track for weeks at a time, but GM needs to show that they've sweated all the details - not just that they can run round the block.
Dont need to, with the exception the TL and G35 you will be hard pressed to find many great value propositions. Price the Camry V6 and Altima SE with a few pricey option packages and compare to domestic cars and you will see what I am talking about.
Your way of thinking is 180 degrees off from how I think. I have two Camrys: four cylinders are fine, thank you very much. And I specifically DON'T want all the fancy doo-dads.
Here's something along the lines of what I'd consider today if I were in the market:
A trip to your local Lexus dealer's customer lounge might surprise you. When I was in there all I see were 50-year-olds with occasionally couple 65-plus-year-olds and this is in Florida. Back in Atlanta I've seen even younger crowds, mostly soccer moms in their 40s.
most perplexing is MB because their products are very overpriced and yet people are willing to pay more to get a problematic vehicle while thumbing their noses at those intellectually (and financially) inferior motorists driving pedestrian Detroit iron, including Cadillac.
Hey, we agree -- I wouldn't touch a new Mercedes today with the proverbial 10-foot pole.
After one generation the G6 nanme is dead? Why after one generation of G6 would they ax the name? I understand they are going RWD for the Pontiac but only after one generation of G6? It just doesn;t sound like a good business move to me. I mean they just axed the Grand AM name a few years ago.
Please,why do people take what is said about the future here as if it is true?
The G6 may go rear wheel drove but the latest data is that it is still coming out in a few years as an Epsilon II. will it go RWD? maybe but there is no platform to build it on so I doubt it. GM cannot afford to come up with new platforms willy nilly for some small volume. And it sell too well to jsut drop it.
My guess is that it will be Eps II and will be AWD in a very sporty package. maybe slightly higher price point for the AWD but the same area.
I have a friend who is a GM master mechanic and (admittedly he's a grouch) he tells tales of design and zone manager decisions that worry me. OK: here's one: Avalanche removable tailgates and bad hinges (installed backwards or something). The tailgates can fall out on the highway. GM says to replace both hinges any time an Avalanche comes in for any service (A secret recall like Toyota?). The Zone manager tells the mechanics to replace only hinges that show signs of wear and don't worry about the rest.
Sounds like the same old GM to me.
Actually it was not the hinges. The wire braided cable that hold up the tailgate in the down position corroded and could break. Cheap part but still had to be replaced and was recalled.
"If I were GM, I wouldn't want that kind of person back."
Even if GM tries, I won't switch back (at least not in near future). I can only buy what I can afford and meets my needs. My first hand experience of owning GM vehicles tells me that I can't afford GM - maintenance is just too expensive.
"I suspect you'll be waiting a long time. Just like those with transmissions in Hondas that keep getting replaced every 30K until the "extended warranty" is out--guess who buys next service replacement after 100K mi??? Grin."
The reputation, resale value, and information available at Edmunds suggest that CR-V is a much better pick than comparable GM vehicles. So, chances are you are b*ll-sh*t*ng.
This is my last post in January. See you all in Feb (assuming the forum won't be closed by then).
>Everyone wants them to be something else that what they are.
Can't agree with that. I've got a 1998 with 150K on it. Running fine, thanks.
Neighbor down the road has a 1988? Century. Looks great, runs great. He's a used car lot manager someone told me. He drives a Mustang and his wife has something else. You can see all kinds of the H-body GMs around this area that are from pre1992, e.g., 1988 leSabres/Park Avenues.
A neighbor buys and sells older GMs as a fun business. He says they're good up to 250 or 300K mi.
LOL, 1487, you have a strong tendency of putting words into people's mouth. Here's my original post:
and whose fault that is? Apparently I just found out earlier today that Japan doesn't charge tariff on imported vehicles but US does...
Did I say anything about all imports in Japan are crap and that's why they don't sell?
Oh by the way, I don't know where you live but in Atlanta I know several people whom bash imports constantly and would never consider them. They also don't have any specific experience with the imports either. For some reason, those hatreds are stronger toward the Japanese than German. I wonder why?
I agree with Lexus got expensive but to put Infiniti in the same category would be too much of an exageration. One can have a G35S (with 306 HP, HID, sports suspension...) for under $34K. Expensive? I don't think so. To me, "value" means "best bang for the bucks", so far I haven't found anything GM has yet to offer for me willing to "bang my bucks on" except the 'vette.
As long as you only compare Japanese brands with other Japanese brands they look good.
Nope, I could compare Japanese to domestic in every category and will find the better value being Japanese (to me at least). Again, Corvette will be the only exception.
"All of the arguments being made here about passing on GM products because you KNOW you will get guaranteed reliability are valid, but they dont explain how MB, Audi, VW, Hyundai, etc. continue to sell plenty of cars in the US. This goes to my point that people are much less willing to give the Big 3 another chance than a foreign company who has made poor quality products."
Yeah MB, VW/Audi do sell tons of cars but thats because of the prestige factor of Germans makes in the US. For the record for me I like VW's interiors but I couldn;t consider them over a Domestic or the Asian makes. Even Consumer Reports the past few years rates Domestic makes better than European makes. Hyundai meanwhile sells their cars cheaper than the Japanese Big 3 with a 10 year warranty. The only Hyundai I like right now is the new Santa Fe. I would buy a Santa Fe if I needed a truck and they are made in the US now I think too which is good.
For the record people think European makes are more reliable than Domestics from a perception standpoint. Didn;t you see Detroit news's article a week ago on European, Japanese, and Domestic Car Avoiders? The survey of people thought the European Makes were more than Domestic makes. The survey said 70% of people would avoid buying a domestic because of suspect reliability. Only 19% of the people were concerned about European Makes reliability.
"The most perplexing is MB because their products are very overpriced and yet people are willing to pay more to get a problematic vehicle while thumbing their noses at those intellectually (and financially) inferior motorists driving pedestrian Detroit iron, including Cadillac."
Again heavy prestige factor with Mercedes vehicles in the US which people think justifies their heavy price tag but than again Caddy did outsell Mercedes in the US in 2005. Caddy sold 235K units in 2005 compared to around 224K that MB sold in 2005. However MB did outsell Caddy in the US in 2006. Caddy sold 227K units in 2006 as oppposed to Mercedes 248K units sold in the US in 2006. I think Mercedes really had demand for the new M-Class SUV which boosted their sales in 2006 in the US. I think the new S-Class has been a good seller while the R-Class I think has been a flop. For the record I think MB has some of the best styling in the industry right now.
I don;t think you can cry about Caddy. THE CTS and Escalade have been hits. I mean Caddy has really slashed years off their average age buyer in the US since release of the 2nd generation Escalade in 2001 or 2002 since the First Escalade was basically a rebadged Chevy. THe CTS has lured more younger buyers than in the 90's in Caddy;s showrooms.
I have a friend who is a GM master mechanic and (admittedly he's a grouch) he tells tales of design and zone manager decisions that worry me. OK: here's one: Avalanche removable tailgates and bad hinges (installed backwards or something). The tailgates can fall out on the highway. GM says to replace both hinges any time an Avalanche comes in for any service (A secret recall like Toyota?). The Zone manager tells the mechanics to replace only hinges that show signs of wear and don't worry about the rest.
Sounds like the same old GM to me.
Actually it was not the hinges. The wire braided cable that hold up the tailgate in the down position corroded and could break. Cheap part but still had to be replaced and was recalled
Thanks for the clarification. However, the point remains unchanged, regardless of the specific part. GM warranty folks remain more concerned with controlling costs than fixing a (potential) problem. Instructions were to replace both and the zone manager was not doing so, to keep costs down.
>The reputation, resale value, and information available at Edmunds suggest that CR-V is a much better pick than comparable GM vehicles. So, chances are you are #*##-##*#*##.
Profanity is not appreciated. Check rules of the road.
The cost to own figures are based on using recommended service intervals. That's why so many companies stretched their intervals in the past--to try to make their cars look lower cost to own. That can include 10000 mi oil change intervals? never changing coolant to 100000 mi? not changing spark plugs? changing filter every other oil change (20,000 mi)? hange timing belts at 60K mi, and so on.
The real cost is when you take you Corolla in for a 3000 mile oil change as the local dealer convinced a friend she has to do with her brand new Corolla. I'm waiting to see how many other required services they come up with for her. But she does have a level where she tells them to get lost. So there's hope. I take better care of my car, no matter the brand, than those recommended service intervals. I try to choose logical maintenance patterns based on weather.
>The reputation, That's what some talked about in previous posts. It's perception as well not always reality. Drive what you want to drive but please don't act like everything else is junk that others are so lacking in intelligence that they drive them without realizing it. Everyone can drive what they want. Have a good break from Edmunds!
As much as cars improve over time there is no way I would be content with the same car for 200k miles. I dont care how well your 1990 Toyota runs today, its still terribly outdated and slow compared to what's offered today.
That depends on what you like. There is no new-car equivalent of a 240SX, first-gen SE-R, MarkIV Supra, or even a Celica All-Trac. There are no compact sedans with small-displacement V6s available here, so someone with a 1990 Camry V6 or an SVT Contour would have to hold onto it.
However, the point remains unchanged, regardless of the specific part. GM warranty folks remain more concerned with controlling costs than fixing a (potential) problem. Instructions were to replace both and the zone manager was not doing so, to keep costs down.
I am not going to say this is false but if GM was saying to replace both and it is a recall item and the part + labor would be around $30 I cannot believe this. The guy has broken the law and I doubt he would do this for $30. This was not a secret recall. Very published.
I can only tell you what I was told, and speculate that at the time I was told about it there was no recall campaign.
A quick glance at the net suggests that it seems my version quite likely:
March 10, 2006 - 3/10/06 - General Motors Corp. said Friday it is recalling about 900,000 pickup trucks worldwide to fix tailgate cables that can corrode and break when loads are placed on them.
The recall involves 1999-2000 models of the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra trucks. GM said there have been 84 injuries, most of them minor scrapes and bumps, but no crashes or deaths linked to the problem. GM, the world's No. 1 automaker, said the galvanized, braided-steel support cables that keep the tailgates in place can corrode or fracture over time because of moisture seeping through cracks in the plastic sheathing of the cable or entering between the cable's metal strands.
The automaker had recalled about 4 million 2000-2004 pickups worldwide in March 2004 because the tailgates could break without warning. The recall involved a broader range of vehicles, including the Chevrolet Silverado, GMC Sierra, Chevrolet Avalanche and Cadillac Escalade EXT trucks.
GM spokesman Alan Adler said the vehicles covered by the new recall had different materials used in the support cables and involved fewer complaints. He said the automaker decided to issue the recall after "an exhaustive investigation."
"We worked with (the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) and agreed to do the recall to get this behind us," Adler said.
Neither the FIRST recall nor the SECOND happened the first day GM knew they had a problem. GM waited for the NHTSA investigation.
I'm not going to say you're defensively speculating on behalf, but if there was no recall at the time my friend told me about the problem, then, no law was being broken.
As for the secret part, it wasn't a public recall until it was publicly announced - by which time there had been a NHTSA investigation and 84 injuries.
In any case, this is all a side issue on the level of the Allante/SL560 discussion.
My overall point was: people form opinions about cars that may not be based on current facts or on facts at all.
People have a supersitious belief that Domestics aren't good cars.
What can GM do to change that perception?
No one has commented on my suggestion that GM do a demonstration.
Here's an example of what they could do - done by TOPGEAR with a Toyota pickup with 190,000 miles on it. Watch:
OK if the C6 is the only value you can come up with you are either pretty biased or you havent checked out GM's porfolio. Here are a few examples of value. I'm sure you will disagree.
Aura XR for $25k with 252hp/6 speed G6 GTP for $26k with same powertrain Cobalt SS/SC for $22k with 205hp 2L Solstice GXP for $26k with 260hp CTS-V with 400hp for $50k SRX V6 for $37k STS V8 starting at aboutu $47k which is cheaper than E350 Impala SS/Grand Prix GXP for $28k with 303hp V8 '07 Malibu SS for $24k with 240hp Lucerne CXL V8 for $30k
I would also put the 300, Fusion and Sebring on the list of cars that offer good value.
Just a few examples off the top of my head. Yes, the C6 is a great value but its not the only value offered by GM. I already said the G35 is a good value compared to IS350 and 330. The M and FX arent such bargains though, the former goes up to about $60k loaded. I have no problem with the G35 so I dont see why you are trying to convince me its a bargain. It seems to me you arent basing value on features and performance, but brand image. If that is how you judge value than I can see why you dont think anything without a Japanese badge will seem like a good buy to you. The Accord, Altima and CAmry are all overpriced for what you get compared to the Sonata, Fusion, Aura, G6, Sebring, Mazda 6, etc. I see little "bang for your buck" in any of those three Japanese sedans unless you get base models with no options.
Perhaps your experience with foreign car haters is why you have such disdain for domestic products. Sorry that you have encountered a lot of xenophobes in Atlanta, but that has nothing to do with the merits of the domestice vehicles in question.
This is the typical attitude of someone who thinks Toyota/Honda do no wrong. When someone mentions ToyoHonda cars as being overpriced your answer is "I dont like options anyway". That is fine, but some people do like options and I dont see why you should have to pay thousands for packages to get one or two options you really want. This is one of the worst practices of Asian automakers. Honda is different, they just prevent you from selecting options. Once people are unwilling to cross shop the Asians can get you to go along with anything. If GM offered option packages like Toyota and Nissan or made you get a sunroof just because you wanted leather like Honda people would be up in arms and swearing off GM for life. When the foreign companies do it there is either an excuse or the old "I only want a base model anyway" line.
Nissan wants over $30k for an Altima SE with leather, Bose, sunroof, heated seats, etc. To me, that is a sign Nissan doesnt want my business. That is about $4000 more than a comparable Aura and all you get for that money is dual zone climate control, bluetooth, Bose and 18 more hp. Those items are not worth $4000 and that doesnt even take into account features found on the Aura that the Altima lacks.
The January issue of the German mag "Auto Motor und Sport" gives the Corvette 4 out of 5 stars...so it looks like the Euro press isn't in on any kind of conspiracy.
Well, again, obviously we have different definition of "value" just like we did with "nice interior". For every car you have listed I can come up with a better candidate in terms of "value" IMO. I wouldn't do that because that'll just spark more disagreement.
However, since you mentioned Aura XR, here's what Edmunds has to say after the follow-up test:
What Works: Excellent drivetrain, solid chassis, looks more expensive than it is.
What Needs Work: Cheap interior materials, shallow trunk, some flawed ergonomics.
For its interior, here's a quote from the article: "The Aura XR's interior has an attractive presentation, yet the materials still lack the refinement of the Japanese-label competition."
As for the G35, it is not only a good value compared to IS350 and 335i, it is also a good value when comparing to the CTS. To sum it up, the G35 is pretty much the value leader in the entry level luxury sedan class IMO. You don't have to agree with me on this, I am just stating what I believe.
Also, if the Accord, Altima and Camry are all overpriced then I guess we have too many suckers in this country huh?
What kind of stunt can Caddy do to as propaganda for themselves?
Commercials - How about reality. How about a married couple mid,late 30's driving up to their mcmansion. Another one with a 40's professional looking woman (real estate?) driving in a upper middle suburb neighborhood. Another one with two couples (40's) going to a nice restaurant in a suburb late Saturday afternoon. Another with a well dressed guy leaving office and going to gym for workout.
Need commercials that are real-life rather than stupid scenes that car is either not really capable of or no one with sound mind would ever do.
I just seen the 2008 CTS in person, and it doesn't need a commercial to sell . The new CTS speaks for itself. World class on the inside, and great looks on the outside.
Comments
After one generation the G6 nanme is dead? Why after one generation of G6 would they ax the name? I understand they are going RWD for the Pontiac but only after one generation of G6? It just doesn;t sound like a good business move to me. I mean they just axed the Grand AM name a few years ago.
IF Pontiac is going RWD will they have a mid-size car to take the place of the G6 and at the same price point?
I wish GM would just keep names of cars around fir awhile like Honda does with the Accord and Nissan does with the Sentra. GM has the habit of renaming and killing name plates so quickly sometimes. I was hoping the habit of renaming and killing names of vehicles was over once Bob Lutz arrived at GM.
Same differance.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think the 100,000 mile warranty is good because people who are suspect about GM reliability are protected by a long warranty in case something goes wrong with the car.
So what does Cadillac have to offer to the young? CTS?
Since you brought this up, would you mind to show me which luxury brand has young average owners?
I wouldn't place your Saab's failure at GM's doorstep. The first Saab that I know of that shared a lot of components with other GM vehicles was the original 9-5 which came out in the late 90s.
I dont mean to suggest that I have a problem sticking with Toyota for the rest of their lives. I do have a problem with people defending the poor value and service offered by many import companies by saying "well its worth it because their vehicles are reliable". First of all, many people today lease cars so the whole notion of "Buy Japanese because their products last 200k miles" is kind of pointless. If Toyota or Honda offers me a car with nice styling for similar money I might consider it. I will not however pay $3000 more for a car that is likely to be only incrementally more reliable than a domestic car that offers similar space and performance.
Trust me, Toyota in general is seeing its average owner age creep up and I believe its near 50 right now. Even Scion did little to reverse this in spite of the psuedo hip ads. An elderly (70+) couple in my neighborhood has that Scion box thing.
If you want to buy only Yugos because they are, in your mind, the most reliable automotive machinery out there, be my guest. Whatever blows your hair back.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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" I also notice a lot HAPPY domestic owners do not consider anything else either so what's your point? "
Outside of UAW territory I doubt there are many domestic vehicle owners who would refuse to consider an import. I surely do not know anyone with a domestic who wouldn't drive anything else. I do however know people that drive Toyotas who bash everything that isn't Japanese even though they have very little specific experience to back it up.
"You forgot to put "IMO"... "
Dont need to, with the exception the TL and G35 you will be hard pressed to find many great value propositions. Price the Camry V6 and Altima SE with a few pricey option packages and compare to domestic cars and you will see what I am talking about. Acura does OK on value, but Lexus and Infiniti have gotten very expensive. They are still somewhat cheaper than the absurdly priced Germans, but that isn't saying much. As long as you only compare Japanese brands with other Japanese brands they look good.
Would you not consider any of those other brands because they have produced less than stellar vehicles within the last 10-20 years or does that only apply to GM? As a happy Toyota owner would you ever venture onto a VW lot when searching for a new car even though your Toyota has never had any problems?
All of the arguments being made here about passing on GM products because you KNOW you will get guaranteed reliability are valid, but they dont explain how MB, Audi, VW, Hyundai, etc. continue to sell plenty of cars in the US. This goes to my point that people are much less willing to give the Big 3 another chance than a foreign company who has made poor quality products. The most perplexing is MB because their products are very overpriced and yet people are willing to pay more to get a problematic vehicle while thumbing their noses at those intellectually (and financially) inferior motorists driving pedestrian Detroit iron, including Cadillac.
Obviously, cars that are more than 20 years old ARE more apt to be GM models, if only because GM was by far the largest player back then. Most of these will be the larger cars, like Lemko's Park Avenue, and of course, the C/K pickups. But I did see a Chevette the other day, the first time in a long while I've spotted one of those!
There are still a fair number of Volvo 240s running around in my neck of the woods, and this model was discontinued after 1993. I may notice them more because I owned one.
The champ among my co-workers in (car) longevity is a 1982 M-B 300 diesel -- it's a daily driver.
My grandfather told the story that he'd had the steering wheel come off in his hands on a new '49 Ford while he was driving it. True? I have no idea, but I know that he never bought a Ford, and that none of his 4 children ever did.
My immediate family had been Chrysler people until a 72 Plymouth soured my Dad on them - probably no worse than other 70's U.S. cars of the day, but a lot worse than the Chryslers of the 60's had been. End of Chryslers for us.
My folks then had a rather bad experience with a mid-70's Caprice - among other things the rear axle was mounted crooked, and it too had the classic 70's hard start problems. Recall that the 70's were the days that Consumers Reports published build code decoders so you could avoid buying a car assembled on a Monday or a Friday (seriously!)
At the same time, my Dad discovered Honda - I remember him telling me with delighted amazement that he'd driven 90,000 miles and done nothing but change the plugs and the oil. The combination of those two events ended our domestic car ownership days. They later switched to Toyota from Honda, but never returned to Domestic. I've told of my mother's refusal to consider a Buick at age 72.
As for me personally, every time I considered returning to the Domestic fold, another horror story from a friend or a rental/company car experience would stop me.
A company K-car that would stall at intersections if you didn't turn off the AC. Until the 300 there hasn't been a Chrysler design that impressed me enough to give them a chance.
A Ford dealer who fixed a co-workers power steering fluid leak by replacing the rack -without asking her. I wanted an 84 Taurus but my friend who bought one (and liked it a lot) had trouble getting warranty work done at a dealer 100 miles away from where he'd bought it, and I was moving out of state.
A Japanese friend who'd bought a Z-24 Cavalier with my help.
The wheel bearings failed at 12,100 miles. The service writer fixed it under warranty, but did it by lying to GM about the mileage on the car. That told me that, under GM rules, at 12,001 miles I'd be on my own. No thanks GM. I have a friend who is a GM master mechanic and (admittedly he's a grouch) he tells tales of design and zone manager decisions that worry me. OK: here's one: Avalanche removable tailgates and bad hinges (installed backwards or something). The tailgates can fall out on the highway. GM says to replace both hinges any time an Avalanche comes in for any service (A secret recall like Toyota?). The Zone manager tells the mechanics to replace only hinges that show signs of wear and don't worry about the rest.
Sounds like the same old GM to me.
The stories go on, but the theme is the same. Bad experiences in the family or by friends, long, long ago. Not much to do with today, but they still haunt like any superstition.
Any small thing that happens confirms my superstition that domestic cars are something to avoid and that Japanese cars are better:
Last night I'm driving home. I'm stopped at a light behind a Toyota Camry. Suddenly I smell burning oil. "Huh", I say to myself in surprise, "Must be one of those sludged Toyota's I've heard about but never seen. I'll be darned." The Toyota pulls away too slowly for me so I change lanes. To my surprise there's a Cadillac STS in front of the Toyota, and THAT's where the oil is coming from. Bang! The superstition is reinforced.
You can discount, or disprove any of these individual stories but the problem is that I believe them enough to make me cautious... just like I don't walk under a ladder. Superstition? Sure, but I'm not the only one.
This is what GM has to overcome and it's going to take time, or something spectacular.
My idea? I'd like to see a Cadillac on a special stand in Times Square, with every feature on the car running day and night for a year. All the doors, the hood, and the trunk opening and closing a million times. The wipers running. The windows going up and down; the radio on.
Cadillac Mechanics in uniforms come out at midnight to change the oil, ideally with the car still running somehow.
Racking up a million miles of "Look how dependable we are now! Buy a Cadillac!"
You see similar events where Mercedes or BMW et al, run cars on a track for weeks at a time, but GM needs to show that they've sweated all the details - not just that they can run round the block.
Your way of thinking is 180 degrees off from how I think. I have two Camrys: four cylinders are fine, thank you very much. And I specifically DON'T want all the fancy doo-dads.
Here's something along the lines of what I'd consider today if I were in the market:
2007 Camry LE
Not bad for about 23K!
Hey, we agree -- I wouldn't touch a new Mercedes today with the proverbial 10-foot pole.
Please,why do people take what is said about the future here as if it is true?
The G6 may go rear wheel drove but the latest data is that it is still coming out in a few years as an Epsilon II. will it go RWD? maybe but there is no platform to build it on so I doubt it. GM cannot afford to come up with new platforms willy nilly for some small volume. And it sell too well to jsut drop it.
My guess is that it will be Eps II and will be AWD in a very sporty package. maybe slightly higher price point for the AWD but the same area.
Sounds like the same old GM to me.
Actually it was not the hinges. The wire braided cable that hold up the tailgate in the down position corroded and could break. Cheap part but still had to be replaced and was recalled.
Even if GM tries, I won't switch back (at least not in near future). I can only buy what I can afford and meets my needs. My first hand experience of owning GM vehicles tells me that I can't afford GM - maintenance is just too expensive.
"I suspect you'll be waiting a long time. Just like those with transmissions in Hondas that keep getting replaced every 30K until the "extended warranty" is out--guess who buys next service replacement after 100K mi??? Grin."
The reputation, resale value, and information available at Edmunds suggest that CR-V is a much better pick than comparable GM vehicles. So, chances are you are b*ll-sh*t*ng.
This is my last post in January. See you all in Feb (assuming the forum won't be closed by then).
Can't agree with that. I've got a 1998 with 150K on it. Running fine, thanks.
Neighbor down the road has a 1988? Century. Looks great, runs great. He's a used car lot manager someone told me. He drives a Mustang and his wife has something else. You can see all kinds of the H-body GMs around this area that are from pre1992, e.g., 1988 leSabres/Park Avenues.
A neighbor buys and sells older GMs as a fun business. He says they're good up to 250 or 300K mi.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
and whose fault that is? Apparently I just found out earlier today that Japan doesn't charge tariff on imported vehicles but US does...
Did I say anything about all imports in Japan are crap and that's why they don't sell?
Oh by the way, I don't know where you live but in Atlanta I know several people whom bash imports constantly and would never consider them. They also don't have any specific experience with the imports either. For some reason, those hatreds are stronger toward the Japanese than German. I wonder why?
I agree with Lexus got expensive but to put Infiniti in the same category would be too much of an exageration. One can have a G35S (with 306 HP, HID, sports suspension...) for under $34K. Expensive? I don't think so. To me, "value" means "best bang for the bucks", so far I haven't found anything GM has yet to offer for me willing to "bang my bucks on" except the 'vette.
As long as you only compare Japanese brands with other Japanese brands they look good.
Nope, I could compare Japanese to domestic in every category and will find the better value being Japanese (to me at least). Again, Corvette will be the only exception.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yeah MB, VW/Audi do sell tons of cars but thats because of the prestige factor of Germans makes in the US. For the record for me I like VW's interiors but I couldn;t consider them over a Domestic or the Asian makes. Even Consumer Reports the past few years rates Domestic makes better than European makes. Hyundai meanwhile sells their cars cheaper than the Japanese Big 3 with a 10 year warranty. The only Hyundai I like right now is the new Santa Fe. I would buy a Santa Fe if I needed a truck and they are made in the US now I think too which is good.
For the record people think European makes are more reliable than Domestics from a perception standpoint. Didn;t you see Detroit news's article a week ago on European, Japanese, and Domestic Car Avoiders? The survey of people thought the European Makes were more than Domestic makes. The survey said 70% of people would avoid buying a domestic because of suspect reliability. Only 19% of the people were concerned about European Makes reliability.
"The most perplexing is MB because their products are very overpriced and yet people are willing to pay more to get a problematic vehicle while thumbing their noses at those intellectually (and financially) inferior motorists driving pedestrian Detroit iron, including Cadillac."
Again heavy prestige factor with Mercedes vehicles in the US which people think justifies their heavy price tag but than again Caddy did outsell Mercedes in the US in 2005. Caddy sold 235K units in 2005 compared to around 224K that MB sold in 2005. However MB did outsell Caddy in the US in 2006. Caddy sold 227K units in 2006 as oppposed to Mercedes 248K units sold in the US in 2006. I think Mercedes really had demand for the new M-Class SUV which boosted their sales in 2006 in the US. I think the new S-Class has been a good seller while the R-Class I think has been a flop. For the record I think MB has some of the best styling in the industry right now.
I don;t think you can cry about Caddy. THE CTS and Escalade have been hits. I mean Caddy has really slashed years off their average age buyer in the US since release of the 2nd generation Escalade in 2001 or 2002 since the First Escalade was basically a rebadged Chevy. THe CTS has lured more younger buyers than in the 90's in Caddy;s showrooms.
Sounds like the same old GM to me.
Actually it was not the hinges. The wire braided cable that hold up the tailgate in the down position corroded and could break. Cheap part but still had to be replaced and was recalled
Thanks for the clarification. However, the point remains unchanged, regardless of the specific part. GM warranty folks remain more concerned with controlling costs than fixing a (potential) problem. Instructions were to replace both and the zone manager was not doing so, to keep costs down.
Profanity is not appreciated. Check rules of the road.
The cost to own figures are based on using recommended service intervals. That's why so many companies stretched their intervals in the past--to try to make their cars look lower cost to own. That can include 10000 mi oil change intervals? never changing coolant to 100000 mi? not changing spark plugs? changing filter every other oil change (20,000 mi)? hange timing belts at 60K mi, and so on.
The real cost is when you take you Corolla in for a 3000 mile oil change as the local dealer convinced a friend she has to do with her brand new Corolla. I'm waiting to see how many other required services they come up with for her. But she does have a level where she tells them to get lost.
So there's hope. I take better care of my car, no matter the brand, than those recommended service intervals. I try to choose logical maintenance patterns based on weather.
>The reputation,
That's what some talked about in previous posts. It's perception as well not always reality. Drive what you want to drive but please don't act like everything else is junk that others are so lacking in intelligence that they drive them without realizing it. Everyone can drive what they want.
Have a good break from Edmunds!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
See you in Feb.
That depends on what you like. There is no new-car equivalent of a 240SX, first-gen SE-R, MarkIV Supra, or even a Celica All-Trac. There are no compact sedans with small-displacement V6s available here, so someone with a 1990 Camry V6 or an SVT Contour would have to hold onto it.
I am not going to say this is false but if GM was saying to replace both and it is a recall item and the part + labor would be around $30 I cannot believe this. The guy has broken the law and I doubt he would do this for $30. This was not a secret recall. Very published.
A quick glance at the net suggests that it seems my version quite likely:
March 10, 2006 - 3/10/06 - General Motors Corp. said Friday it is recalling about 900,000 pickup trucks worldwide to fix tailgate cables that can corrode and break when loads are placed on them.
The recall involves 1999-2000 models of the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra trucks. GM said there have been 84 injuries, most of them minor scrapes and bumps, but no crashes or deaths linked to the problem.
GM, the world's No. 1 automaker, said the galvanized, braided-steel support cables that keep the tailgates in place can corrode or fracture over time because of moisture seeping through cracks in the plastic sheathing of the cable or entering between the cable's metal strands.
The automaker had recalled about 4 million 2000-2004 pickups worldwide in March 2004 because the tailgates could break without warning. The recall involved a broader range of vehicles, including the Chevrolet Silverado, GMC Sierra, Chevrolet Avalanche and Cadillac Escalade EXT trucks.
GM spokesman Alan Adler said the vehicles covered by the new recall had different materials used in the support cables and involved fewer complaints. He said the automaker decided to issue the recall after "an exhaustive investigation."
"We worked with (the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) and agreed to do the recall to get this behind us," Adler said.
NHTSA had been investigating the vehicles.
2nd Recall
Neither the FIRST recall nor the SECOND happened the first day GM knew they had a problem. GM waited for the NHTSA investigation.
I'm not going to say you're defensively speculating on behalf, but if there was no recall at the time my friend told me about the problem, then, no law was being broken.
As for the secret part, it wasn't a public recall until it was publicly announced - by which time there had been a NHTSA investigation and 84 injuries.
In any case, this is all a side issue on the level of the Allante/SL560 discussion.
My overall point was: people form opinions about cars that may not be based on current facts or on facts at all.
People have a supersitious belief that Domestics aren't good cars.
What can GM do to change that perception?
No one has commented on my suggestion that GM do a demonstration.
Here's an example of what they could do - done by TOPGEAR with a Toyota pickup with 190,000 miles on it. Watch:
Top Gear Toyota Hilux test
Then tell me that Toyota trucks aren't tough....
Forget I said THAT
That toyota-massacre video is a great stunt - even if it's not really true, it's great propaganda for them.
What kind of stunt can Caddy do to as propaganda for themselves?
(I'm not suggesting they set themselves on fire for attention or anything, but.......what? :confuse: )
Aura XR for $25k with 252hp/6 speed
G6 GTP for $26k with same powertrain
Cobalt SS/SC for $22k with 205hp 2L
Solstice GXP for $26k with 260hp
CTS-V with 400hp for $50k
SRX V6 for $37k
STS V8 starting at aboutu $47k which is cheaper than E350
Impala SS/Grand Prix GXP for $28k with 303hp V8
'07 Malibu SS for $24k with 240hp
Lucerne CXL V8 for $30k
I would also put the 300, Fusion and Sebring on the list of cars that offer good value.
Just a few examples off the top of my head. Yes, the C6 is a great value but its not the only value offered by GM. I already said the G35 is a good value compared to IS350 and 330. The M and FX arent such bargains though, the former goes up to about $60k loaded. I have no problem with the G35 so I dont see why you are trying to convince me its a bargain. It seems to me you arent basing value on features and performance, but brand image. If that is how you judge value than I can see why you dont think anything without a Japanese badge will seem like a good buy to you. The Accord, Altima and CAmry are all overpriced for what you get compared to the Sonata, Fusion, Aura, G6, Sebring, Mazda 6, etc. I see little "bang for your buck" in any of those three Japanese sedans unless you get base models with no options.
Perhaps your experience with foreign car haters is why you have such disdain for domestic products. Sorry that you have encountered a lot of xenophobes in Atlanta, but that has nothing to do with the merits of the domestice vehicles in question.
Nissan wants over $30k for an Altima SE with leather, Bose, sunroof, heated seats, etc. To me, that is a sign Nissan doesnt want my business. That is about $4000 more than a comparable Aura and all you get for that money is dual zone climate control, bluetooth, Bose and 18 more hp. Those items are not worth $4000 and that doesnt even take into account features found on the Aura that the Altima lacks.
However, since you mentioned Aura XR, here's what Edmunds has to say after the follow-up test:
What Works:
Excellent drivetrain, solid chassis, looks more expensive than it is.
What Needs Work:
Cheap interior materials, shallow trunk, some flawed ergonomics.
For its interior, here's a quote from the article:
"The Aura XR's interior has an attractive presentation, yet the materials still lack the refinement of the Japanese-label competition."
As for the G35, it is not only a good value compared to IS350 and 335i, it is also a good value when comparing to the CTS. To sum it up, the G35 is pretty much the value leader in the entry level luxury sedan class IMO. You don't have to agree with me on this, I am just stating what I believe.
Also, if the Accord, Altima and Camry are all overpriced then I guess we have too many suckers in this country huh?
Have to wait till I see a 2008 CTS in person to confirm that.
Rocky
Rocky
Commercials - How about reality.
How about a married couple mid,late 30's driving up to their mcmansion. Another one with a 40's professional looking woman (real estate?) driving in a upper middle suburb neighborhood. Another one with two couples (40's) going to a nice restaurant in a suburb late Saturday afternoon. Another with a well dressed guy leaving office and going to gym for workout.
Need commercials that are real-life rather than stupid scenes that car is either not really capable of or no one with sound mind would ever do.
Rocky