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General Motors discussions
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Comments
Greg
Now that is stretching it!! I really doubt the delta weight has anything to do with reliability for 95% of the cars issues. Oh perhaps tire wear, or suspension creaks or something but not much else.
"In return for money, Vincent, a Toyota employee, had promised to surrender Web site domain names where pro-union material was posted, the prosecution said. Vincent also told Toyota he'd stop union activities and turn over names of employees sympathetic to the union if he received the money, which was never paid. Vincent and his attorney contended Toyota first offered him money for the domain names. Vincent was sentenced to two years. He was released in March 2006 from the Ashland federal prison."
That guy had a bad lawyer thats all I can say I mean he was forced too surrender the pro-union names and didn't get any money back which he was supposed to get? Well at least he only got 2 years in jail for extorting money.
I do not have experience with the new Camry or ES350 but the LaCrosse handled better than the old ES and rode better than the old Camry. so if anything I would say most buyers would find the LaCrosse / ES / Camry a wash in handling and ride. Get a bit more lean in the ES and a bit more impact harshness in the LaCrosse over the ES.
On the Lucerne I believe it has a bit sportier ride than the Avalon.
We're back to the use of adjectives to make something bad or to let something get by. I recall another TV show with strange people on it testing stopping distance on a GM car and for sake of example it was 128 feet from 60 mph. That was "poor." A couple weeks later a British sporty car was tested and stopped about the same distance and that was "Good."
The GM car was not a sporty model but the British car was. I'd expect the sporty car to have much better stopping distance because of suspension along with tire rubber choice.
In the current CR mag a lot of generalization is done and the cars are grouped. The grouping leads to conclusions that's not true other than for a small part of the vehicles in the group for GM. They should have been broken out. Figures never lie but liars always figure. In fact I was required to use that many times in a previous job and I had to look for figure presentation to serve purposes of the boss.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What did Toyota get?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I mayself don;t think Toyota would cut their workers health benefits or pension but your right there is not contact that the workers signed as far as those benefits are concerned.
There would be a big backlash if a report got out that Toyota was going to cut off their workers benefits. You think Anna Nicole was big if Toyota cut off their workers benefits Toyota;s name would be all over the news in a very negative light.
As a Japanese Car Fan I doubt Toyota would shut down the plant just to avoid an election because like you said it would be a smear in the press if they did that.
Naaah. Good PR. I.e., the washer in transmission thing that was alleged. They had a person on the Edmunds group "helping" the people with their questions. Then the IMHO real transmission problem became more obvious...
Companies are decided to ditch people over 40 and close to retirement or being vested in the pension (Toyota doesn't have one or do they?) all the time. A friend was just ditched by a small business near the Smyrna Nissan plant. Actually with two different companies since he was employed by a 2nd one. In that state workers have no rights. Could be the reason that in a perimeter around the great auto plant there are so many houses smaller than our garage.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What did Toyota get?
From the article you posted I thought Toyota got the names of the people that were pro-union but now that I read the article again Toyota may not have gotten the names because the guy who extorted money didn;t recieve any money back from Toyota.
That was the deal if he released the name he would get money but he didn;t recieve any money so they may or many not have gotten the names.
That does bring up an interesting possibility - it would be entirely within the realm of possibility that Toyota would end up cutting a deal close to what they already have. Yes, the workers wound get the recourse procedures and such out of it but what do you think would be the reaction amongst the factory workers if their paychecks looked teh same but now there is a UAW deduction?
Naaah. Good PR. I.e., the washer in transmission thing that was alleged. They had a person on the Edmunds group "helping" the people with their questions. Then the IMHO real transmission problem became more obvious...
You didn't make your post clear enough to what you were trying to point out can you please clarify more.
If your trying too imply though that cutting off workers benefits is as light of an issue as a transmission issue I don;t think so.
Taking a car in four times for repairs is not something I would look forward to compared to have but one repair job needed. And at $85 per hour, I think both GM and Japan makes are gonna cost plenty to have a repair. Those GM cars with more sophisticated suspensions as going to cost the same or more to repair as those of the competition. Now it could be the old push rod engine may cost less to repair, but then again a Honda or Toyota engine may not need repair for some 200K to 300K so the car may be retired by original owner by that time.
More expensive transmissions and such. Larger wheels.
Loren
Yeah the workers would get paid close to what they are getting paid now except for the fact their benefits would be totally secure after they retire.
As for the workers getting deductions from the union on their paychecks they probably won;t like it but like I said before their benefits will be secure after they retire so its kinda off a tradeoff in the short term but in the long term they will be garunteed benefits.
The obstacle for Toyota is wether their system for assembling cars will remain if the workers vote on the union but I think in my mind that will be part of the contract with the union that Toyota will keep its "system" of assembling cars intact.
Doesn't mean the UAW might cut a better deal for Toyota workers but nothing is guaranteed beyond a single contract.
The government, state and federal has standards for workers, safety, wages not based on religion, race, sex, and such. I would think a company would wish to keep its best employees and treat them well. Otherwise, I would think anyone with some skills would quit their work where they are not appreciated and move on. Would not be too productive to have only underpaid, un-appreciated, unskilled laborers building your cars. If this is the case, perhaps the company should have looked into their managerial positions to be sure they were finds the best help and retaining them through doing what was right in all cases. Of course, anyone which has ever held a job may have a disagreement and have to just bear with it from time to time. Later on, perhaps years later, you may find the manager was correct. That is unless you never made a mistake. Gosh, how nice it would be to be perfect.... or maybe not. :shades:
So, you say the Union is looking out for employer and member. Interesting. This will be very important in coming years, as GM makes their comeback or goes into chapter 11 or is that 13?
Loren
What I was referring to was the fact that contracts generally contain volumes of "employer rights" and "employee rights" - actually "union rights" as well.
Sometimes these rights are ones they would have under the law but settling an issue that is in the contract is almost always easier than settling it through lawyers.
I really haven't made up my mind, based on what I've seen so far, as to whether Toyota workers organizing is a good thing or not. Unless I get on a "Union built only" kick it doesn't matter to me.
Of course if I go on a "Union built only" kick I'd have to buy a Japanese Honda instead of an American one.....
If I bought car A (say Camry) for $25,000 and had it in the shop for one repair at $2000, my cost of ownership would be $27,000 (all other things being equal). If I had bought car B (say G6) for $25,000 and had to put it in the shop 3 times for $500 each, my cost of ownership would be $500 less.
Car A is more reliable, but more costly to own.
When you figure that the American car will usually be less than the Japanese auto, especially with their big incentives like cash back and crazy low financing, the American car may be the better buy. Insurance are another thing that people often don't take into account. Civics and Accords have historicly been more expensive to insure, thanks in part to their attractiveness to theives.
Ever wondered why corporate buyers usually end up with GM or other Detroit makes for their fleets? It's because they do look at all the criteria.
Which brings me back to the point that GM may be the better car in terms of overall cost to own or value. But because it's middle of the pack for most criteria, and most people buy based on one or two criteria, they don't end up on the top of most peoples buying list.
Carry on.
Just bring your ladle.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Even if the Honda Accord cost a thousand more to own than would the GM Impala, I think most people would prefer to own the Honda over a five year period. And in most cases you save more than a thousand due far better resale value. Some of the new stuff from GM, like the Aura XR would be fun enough to drive, but it comes at a price not say a thousand more, but for thousands more. It would have cost me more to buy, then lose more come trade-in time. And I do not consider the car as a premium to the one I bought. Not worth the thousands more.
Loren
My father wasa teamster memebr for 30 years, when the company was in a pinch and lenders would only extened the loans if they got concessions from the Unions, the unions said NO,company folded, dad got 1,500 settment from a 30 year pension
Rocky
Rocky
-Loren
Most professionals that have decent paying jobs make at least $60k out of college today. I am talking jobs like Engineering, Nursing, Public Relations, CPA's, etc. Now combine two 60k salaries, add in 20 years of promotions/raises, add in equity in the $200k starter home you bought and then the $400k 2nd home you moved up to and then you can afford the $600k house. In fact you will probably have another $1,000,000 in a 401 if you did not throw your money around!!
I don't know I never worked for Toyota ?
Do union hall parking lots have rule that only American made vehicles can park in their lots?
Well you are frowned upon if you don't park union made american vehcles in their parking lot.
Are Accords and Toyotas allowed but cars/trucks made in Mexico and Canada not allowed?
I never seen a Accord or Toyota parked at a UAW halls parking lot. I also never seen a Mexican made vehicle parked at a UAW hall as UAW workers know where each vehicle is made as published in the UAW Solidarity magazine. I yes have seen CAW built vehicles at UAW union halls. I haven't been to a UAW union meeting in several years as I have lived in Texas for 5+ years.
Rocky
going to be??
Rocky
Rocky
Something about that car looks to me like I have seen it before. With the typical Pontiac front, and the Malibu / Aura look to the rest, these cars are starting to all blend. With RWD, priced right though, they could be pretty interesting. If they handle well, get decent gas mileage, and cost say $24K then it may light a fire for Pontiac.
Loren
The benefits the UAW would get them and job security, is easily worth the union dues. Only ignorance would disagree with that.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
As for Union being good or bad deal - no comment. That debate I am sure is hot of some other forum here. GM and UAW working together is crucial. Keeping jobs in America is as important as always.
Hope it all works out for the General, which seems to be changing for the better and the workers, which I would think can understand that there are many changes to come. And as a coach would say, " this is a team effort."
Loren
Rocky
Loren
Loren
Yes. He approached Toyota looking for a cash payout in return for the domain name and some dirt. His lawyer contended that Toyota initiated contact with him, but the court ruled differently and sent him to the klink.
It is a fad, and it will turn back when car designers realize what the term "angular momentum" implies for larger rims.
One could also suggest that the drivetrain be engineered to withstand 100% loading in the first place.
If the Toyota Tundra, is so impressive then why does it need to be put into 4x4 Hi to achieve its 0-60 numbers?
Traction. As much time as you spend extolling AWD, you should already know that. :P
Huh ? What Chevy and What Saturn ? The Saturn Aura is a FWD appliance like a camcord. The Chevy Impala is going RWD in 09' but will be bigger than the current Impala and the current Impala will be replaced by the 08' Malibu as the Malibu grows in size.
Is this G8 bigger than an Aura or Malibu?
I believe it is slightly bigger in size but not much. I don't feel like looking up the exact specs. I'll let 62, 1487, if they like to do that.
And what becomes of Buick -- poor-poor orphan?
Buick, will be busy kicking the stuffing out of Lexus. :P
Or do they get their own G8.
Well sort of as they will be getting a Buick Velite Luxury Sedan in 2010' with RWD built on ZETA platform.
Seems like a lot of models hitting the floor which are asking for the same dollars.
Well not really. However the base 2 premium trims will of course have some overlap.
Do they then drop the G6
G6, will go RWD according to 62vetteefp. I heard it will go RWD on another site also Loren. I have not seen any concrete info confirming this. Maybe 62' has ?
Or is the G8 the same as the New Impala?
Well both will be the same as they share ZETA architecture but the G8 will be more of a BMW and the Impala will be more of a 300C if that makes sense ?
And if so why two of them. Two many balls in the air, I am dropping them as I try to think of each balls value vs. the other.
Loren, it will make perfect sense when you see both of them in person. Drive both of them as their size and personality's will be different. "Wanna be a ballar, shock collar, 20-inch blades on the Impala" The Impala will be a big body Muscle Car like the 60's and mid 90's. I expect maybe a coupe and wagon possibly?
Still thinking Pontiac + Buick as a combined division.
NO-WAY !!!! Pontiac is a performance only division and Buick is a luxury brand. :mad:
Oh wait, Oldsmobile was sort of a mix of the two, in a way. I need to take a walk I guess, I am going nuts.... OK, I know - I know...
Yes you need to go take a walk along the Pacific and clear your mind after saying Pontiac and Buick need to be combined. :P
Rocky
Rocky
Well Toyota, is yet to prove it's drivetrain will hold up. If they are so confident then why don't they offer a 5 yr. 100K warranty on their beloved new truck ???? :P
Traction. As much time as you spend extolling AWD, you should already know that.
I do like AWD alot and thus am a fan of it but I wouldn't want to have to rely on it to power forward. Is their something wrong with the Yota's suspension ? Maybe axel hop issues ? :P
Rocky
Tires aren't sticky enough for that much torque, and I assume a locker isn't standard equiment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_LS_engine
:shades:
Rocky
Rocky