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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think that GM has joined the race to see who can build the ugliest SUV. I cannot think of one SUV that I like better than the last generation of Chevy Suburban/Tahoe. They had clean classic lines without all the plastic bumpers etc. I do not see me buying a new SUV unless someone comes up with a good looking one. That includes your Escalade and all the Japanese crappola. I will say the new Chevy PU is a slight improvement over the last model. Still not what I would buy. They have cheapened them to the point they have gone back to drum brakes in the rear. The salesman at GMC tried telling me drum brakes stop better. Unless the General pulls something out of the hat, I will be looking on Craigslist for a pre 2002 Chevy truck when I get rid of this 2005 GMC hybrid.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Most new cars look like the were conceived in a nightmare. I cannot believe how many ugly cars, SUVs and PU trucks are being sold.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    ?? which one does Super have now?
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Yes, drum brakes do have good stopping power -- until overheated. Rain and water puddles are not too good a combination with drum brakes, come to think of it. If I recall correctly, until they fade, drums may be as good, if not better in initial stopping power. Not sure that is a good thing. :(

    I don't pay much attention to SUV designs, as I don't want to drive a truck. Of the ones I know of, the Mazda Tribute is a nice looking little SUV and the Murano stands out as an interesting futurist design. I am sure you either love or hate that one. It is like the CTS, and love it or leave it feel about it.
    Loren
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I cannot believe how many ugly cars, SUVs and PU trucks are being sold.

    Does this tell you maybe your idea of good looking does not jive with the rest of the world :P
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    What is the deal with the Tribeca? How did they allow a modern day Edsel to make it to the market. Subaru is one strange company. They have some interesting engineering, with AWD and Boxer engines. Potential - they got it! All is required is some new skins.
    Loren
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    gagrice, You must be getting old and you need a stronger prescription for your goggles. :P

    I love ya pal, but I do not know how you could say that the last generation Trucks and SUV's were better. :surprise: They were POS's compared to what we have now and I did own a 2000 Z-71 and at the time it was pretty damn nice but compared to today it was a POS. GM, has raised the bar so high not even Toyota, could reach it with their latest tundra. Sure it will be the Silvy in a race this year but the interior, quality, fit and finish, and boxed frame are new standards.

    All I can say pal is go test drive a new one. If you still dislike it I would like to know what it is. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well do you like it ?

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    :confuse:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    LOL, it is pretty awesome, eh ?

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    They have cheapened them to the point they have gone back to drum brakes in the rear. The salesman at GMC tried telling me drum brakes stop better.

    Loren, gagrice, don't you guys recognize drum brakes have progressed over the years and yes they have gotten a lot better. They are also cheaper to maintain and are more reliable. I do not think disc brakes on the rears is a major issue anymore with this new design. ;)

    Rocky
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    As popular as the new Caddies may be I am not impressed with the looks. The only thing that attracted me to the Escalade is the Diamond Pearl paint. Caddie has had maybe two models in the last 20 years that I thought were clean looking nice cars. As much as I dislike the Honda dealership near me, the new Accord would be worth a test drive. Last gen was not attractive to me at all. I liked the looks of the last Camry and think the new one is not very nice looking.

    I really would like to buy a new SUV. I have looked at the GL450, X5, MDX and Yukon. The GL320 CDI is a possible only because of the diesel engine. Not based on GL looks at all. The Lexus LX470 is a nice vehicle, just way over priced and the local dealer is horrible. I will not let them touch my wife's LS400.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I know it kind of amazes me. He is the first person I heard say they like the last generation trucks and SUV's better than this current crop. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    If GM, pulled off a deal like Subaru of having 10 year old skins and never changing a crappy buzzy engine like the under powered boxer we would never hear the end. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I was referring to the pics of the 08' Super as we at least saw the hood 62' ;)

    Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    No! To date, Japan and even Hyundai make the best smaller econo cars.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Rocky,
    You sound like the salesman. If what you are saying is true, why do they still put 4 wheel disc brakes on the high end Denali models? They have cheapened the truck going back to drum brakes. You need all the stopping power you can get with a big truck rain or shine. If drums are so great why don't they put them on the front also? Why do all the manufacturer's including Toyota put drums on their cheapo vehicles?

    PS
    Toyota is putting 4 wheel disks on their cheapest Tundra. You would be losing me if they were not sooooo ugly..
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Crappy? Under powered? I have not researched Subaru all that much, but it seems like some unique product. The boxer engine appears to be an interesting configuration. I do recall, some time back, about some oil leaks or something.

    As far as buzzy, it couldn't be more so than American i4 engines - could it? Not sure about the new Ecotec. Perhaps the savior of American i4 technology. I guess I gave up on i4 some time ago in most American cars. It was OK in the PT, as the PT was sort of a specialty, just for fun, and hauling things around, sort of utility, and kinda a retro car, and not to be taken seriously. Just like the run-on sentence. So the engine in the PT was like a '37 car, that is what is suppose to be. :shades:
    Loren
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Read this gagrice please.........

    Drum brakes hard to beat

    January 25, 2007

    "What's up with those rear drum brakes?" several readers asked after carefully studying the new Chevrolet Silverado's specifications.

    Actually, it was more like, "What do those idiots think they're doing sticking these antiquated pieces of junk on their new pickup?"

    Turns out they were reducing the truck's cost and weight without compromising brake performance or safety. The idiots.

    Just about every vehicle used to have drum brakes, but they've been widely replaced by discs, which are less likely to heat up and lose effectiveness when the brakes are frequently applied. Because of that, some people associate discs with more advanced technology and think drums are outdated.

    Engineers, however, love simple systems, because they are usually easier to build and maintain, and that means fewer repairs and lower costs.

    So a good engineer will occasionally go back and reconsider old solutions to problems.

    GM did that with brake supplier Bosch a few years ago, and the result was a system that replaces four-wheel-disc brakes with front disc and rear drum brakes on some models of the new Silverado and GMC Sierra.

    I had the chance to test it and four-wheel-disc versions of the 2006 Silverado back to back on a closed course a couple of years ago, and the disc-drum combo provided better pedal feel and smoother, more assured stops. That's thanks to improved controls and the fact that a pickup -- especially one with little or no cargo -- carries most of its weight in the front half of the vehicle. Because braking leans all vehicles forward, shifting even more weight to the nose, the rear brakes of an unladen pickup are virtually unemployed.

    You can use discs all around, but that's a bit like refusing to hire a babysitter who's not a qualified paramedic with an ambulance on call. You're over-engineering the program, paying for more than you need.

    Silverados equipped for heavy work get disc brakes on all four corners, but the rear drums are more than adequate on other models.

    http://forums.motortrend.com/70/1112295/the-general-forum/drum-brakes-hard-to-be- - at-lower-cost-weight-with-be/

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    The Denali FYI has Disc brakes pal as other models. Not all of em' are drums on the rear. :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    No! To date, Japan and even Hyundai make the best smaller econo cars.

    Well to date you are right but with the new Astra, the tides will change ya know like a moon phase. :P

    Rocky
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Read my lips Rocky, I do not like plastic bumpers on an SUV. It ain't right. Un American for sure. They all look like something from a Saturday Cartoon show. I guess that is why they appeal to young people that were raised on Saturday cartoons. GM was one of the last to give up Chrome Steel Bumpers on the only real SUV, the Suburban. The King is dead, long live the King. Welcome in Toyota as the new king.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I think the Subie boxer engine dates back to like the 60's or 70's. It would be like GM, still using the 350 today and while Subie gets a free pass GM, would get hammered. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Huh, which way do you want it? Consumers want a quiet ride thus GM, adds weight by quiet tuning the cabins with thinsulate and foam to absorb noise. Now consumers gripe because they don't use those old rusty metal bumpers. They gripe because their vehicles weigh to much ! What are they to do ? I guess they can't make everyone happy. :confuse: FYI if you want a Truck with a metal bumper I got one for ya pal. Get you a 2008' Ford Super Duty as it has lots of metal on the grill and on both bumpers. ;) Good Grief gagrice, your killing me pal !!!!! :P

    Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    This implies that people do not load their trucks. So now we have a truck designed to be driven around town and city for looks. Yes, I suppose it means something to some people to drive or be seen in a truck, though they never use the bed in the back. In that case, I do agree the drums in back make perfect sense. But then again, I would just buy the easier to drive, and slick little Tacoma truck. Better gas mileage, and easy to park. The commercials, on the other hand, indicate these are tough working trucks, and thus something is going into the back end. In this case, why not have the best stopping power for heated braking and in the wet?
    Loren
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I guess you missed this quote:

    Silverados equipped for heavy work get disc brakes on all four corners, but the rear drums are more than adequate on other models.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is what I am trying to get across to you. They have cheapened the line. You get 4 wheel disc brakes on the more expensive trucks. On the cheapest Tundra you get 4 wheel disc brakes. It is another nail in the GM coffin. One of the few things I like about my 2005 GMC over my last Chevy truck is the braking is better with 4 wheel disc brakes. The engineers are making excuses for cheapening the line. When I read crap like you posted makes me want to puke. Trucks carry heavy loads down hills at times. Disc brakes are SUPERIOR under heavy load. GM is hoping that no one would notice. It was the first thing I noticed when I test drove the first 2007 GMC truck in San Diego.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Now THIS IS A TRUCK insulation was wearing long johns, back in the days of real trucks and their drivers. No shocks required ;)
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Once you drive the Accord SE V6, you will be hooked. And they are dealing right now on those cars. Smooth and powerful, with good reflexes on the turns, with double wishbone suspension. It is solid and with a classy interior.

    In the Caddy line, I like the CTS, though it seems overpriced. It really should have some things standard, like the 3.6 engine. New one on the way for '08 though.
    Loren
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    No I did not miss it. I refute the claim as someone that has owned 4 GM trucks with rear drum brakes. They are NOT as good as disc brakes. We make such a fuss about safety, then cheap john the most important safety feature on a vehicle. Toyota and Honda do it too. They put cheapo drums on their less expensive models. I would rather have great brakes and no airbags. I would like to avoid accidents not be in a crushable cocoon with airbags all around.

    Who decides which truck is for heavy duty use? I see more 1/2 ton trucks over loaded than 3/4 & 1 ton. Many working folks buy 1/2 ton trucks because that is what they can afford. Most of the 1 ton trucks are running around empty with monster tires.

    I can tell you it was one of the reasons I did not trade in my 2005 on a new 2007. That and it was not as quiet on the highway. GM is losing ground.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Loren, the Tacoma isn't a work truck pal. My buddy Stewart thought so and he cracked that bullet proof composite bed :P The GM work trucks have disc brakes like the article indicated but regular drive-way queens need only drums and the editor noted the advantages of the new drum brakes. I didn't realize this was a deal breaker :confuse: The Trucks I'd buy would naturally have discs because I buy top models whenever I buy new vehicles. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Thank-you 62' ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well buy you the superior new Tundra, then......good grief !!!!! Just remember that the new Super Dupper Engineered Tundra, that you love so much because it has Disc brakes also has another flaw which is more important. If you get in a crash you might end up with that 5.7L Super Dupper V8 in your lap as the new Tundra only get 4-Stars in the Frontal Crash Test. :P I'll take the 5-star crash Chevy/GMC with the drum brakes. :P

    Rocky
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I may have to test drive the new Accord. I think I would be more apt to go for the Pilot or Odyssey. I do not like being down low to the ground. My GMC is dwarfed by a big share of the rigs in this area. The LS400 is small enough for me.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    LOL, they were trucks but they can't hold a candle to the modern buff daddy's we have today. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Yep you could of gotten a Bose Edition 3.6L for $299 a month probably which is cheaper than you are paying for your accord. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    gagrice, you are full of it pal. You are trying to claim your 05' is quieter than a 2007. Simpily Hawg Wash pal !!!! :P

    I guess you missed the article also as it said not all the half ton models have drum brakes. Probably the base 2wd trucks with base trim have drum brakes.

    Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    If you are talking about the CTS, buying new, then forget it. The car is not a good value bought new. Check out the Intellichoice, or just consider what you can find one for from a private source used.

    From resale to gas mileage, the Accord will work out best, I feel.

    I do not buy on time. No need to support the banker, thank you.
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Adequate is a buzz word for cutting corners, as in the old bean counters routine. If you want a truck which makes sense to drive to the grocery store, Toyota has the deal = Tacoma. Great gas mileage, resale, reliability, and easy to wheel around. Toyota, I am sure is not satisfied with adequate for its products. Kaizen is the Japanese word which sums it up.
    Loren
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado/features/
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I am wanting a GMC crew cab and they only got 4 stars driver and 3 stars passenger. Not that it has any thing to do with accident avoidance. Have you driven the new GM PU trucks? They are noisier than the previous years. It is cheaper built is all I can say. And the 2005 is not a great truck for solid build. I was all ready to like the new GMC trucks. Not my fault they are inferior to previous years.

    Look at the bright side. All those Tundra PU trucks are assembled in TX, by fellow Texians. The Silverado is probably built in Mexico or Canada. If I was to go buy a vehicle today it would be a GL320 CDI. Then just get an old beater truck for around the place.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    It was a lease for $299 a month and many on here say paying cash for a vehicles is a waste when you could invest the difference. This is especially true if you hold on to a vehicles for only 3-5 years. Now somebody like lemko, it makes perfect sense to pay cash as he never gets rid of it. ;)

    Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Chevy implies that their drum brake trucks are not used for work -- are they not in a round about way? So why not go with something more efficient, easy going and save gas and money. You may actually get into your favorite parking slot easier. Tacoma, more than adequate, the leader in class.
    Loren
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Too bad my dealer ordered all his 1500s without the option.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Lease and time payments, are both losing propositions.
    Loren
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Kaizen, is a glorious word when applied to manufactoring looks better on paper than in the real world. We employed the Kaizen Theory at Johnson Controls, and it's a paper weight of a word. ;)

    The Tacoma, is a over-priced midsize thus buy the Canyon/Colorado for a real truck if you want a midsize go anywhere. ;)

    Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    You can't be serious. A Tacoma is like $15K. And it looks far better than the rather odd looking Canyon/Colorado.

    Loren
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I am wanting a GMC crew cab and they only got 4 stars driver and 3 stars passenger.

    Huh? The 07's got five-stars !!!!

    Not that it has any thing to do with accident avoidance. Have you driven the new GM PU trucks?

    Yes, and my conclusion is they are much quiter than the last generation. We have 06' Silvy's at work and friends took me for a ride in their 07's. :)

    They are noisier than the previous years. It is cheaper built is all I can say.

    Cheaper built and noiser ? :confuse: Wow, is all I can say. The previous generation was a plastic fantasy for a dash and this current (07's) generation has a Audi like interior ;) Have you not seen the spec's on the 07's with all the improvements including a fully boxed frame like Ford ? I guess not.... :confuse:

    And the 2005 is not a great truck for solid build. I was all ready to like the new GMC trucks. Not my fault they are inferior to previous years.

    gagrice, you have a right your opinion pal, but I strongly disagree with it. This is shocking as everyone else disagree's with you. ;)

    Look at the bright side. All those Tundra PU trucks are assembled in TX, by fellow Texians.

    You will never catch me dead in one. They have a uglu interior and they ride rough. No Thanks :lemon:

    The Silverado is probably built in Mexico or Canada.

    They also are made a couple of places in the U.S. Fort Worth, Indiana comes to mind. I think another plant here in the U.S. builds them also.

    If I was to go buy a vehicle today it would be a GL320 CDI. Then just get an old beater truck for around the place.

    A Mercedes ? No thanks !!!! I want a vehicles with some grapefruits if you know what I mean. :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    The Tacoma owners I know quickly traded them in because the mileage didn't reflect the EPA estimates as they got 15-17 mpg in them. Stewart said he also had trim pieces come apart on his. He traded his in for a Charger Daytona. The other guy traded his Tacoma in on a new GMC half-ton. The Tacoma, is a joke here in Truck Country Loren. Everyone I know dislikes them.

    Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    They lost the small truck battle to Toyota. A Canyon/Colorado is a rare find on the streets around here. Now Silverado may have some edge on Tundra. But watch out. Heavy battle underway. So what position is Ford in now. Were they not the leader in trucks? Maybe that is a California thing. Saw an ad for Dodge trucks and they are throwing in Hemi Engines, and all that jazz. Wow - that things gotta Hemi? !!!

    Loren
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