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I wouldn't say that. Ford has been sharing platforms with Mazda since the '80s, we got Americanized versions of the Mondeo and Focus, the Lincoln LS platform was the basis for a Jaguar something-or-other, and the 500/Taurus and its ilk started out as a Volvo. Ford started on the globalization thing long before GM did, but GM fully committed to it several years before Ford (i.e. when Mulally showed up).
Guess it could happen-never say never.
Loren
Loren
The rest of what he was saying was good. Of course I'd expect Waggoner to paint a good picture since he's the guy in charge, but it was mostly accurate.
Engineering has / is being done on the platforms in the various countries of origin. BUT, there is a huge amount of person ell being moved all over the world to assure regional needs are met. many of my friends are in Australia/Germany/China/Korea and many others travel while based here.
All cars other than Sigma are based on platforms outside the states.
Ford is nowhere near this.
-Rocky
-Rocky
I do not know what the G8 will be like. The GTO was not noted for great handling. I assume it to be powerful, though the Camry for 2007 is powerful, with great gas mileage. The G8 looks from the pictures are quite mediocure, though perhaps in the metal, before the eyes, it will look better. Or perhaps it gets some styling upgrades. With gas at $3.50 per gallon, whatever engine which is used better get closer to 30 MPG freeway, than 20 MPG. Anything over 200HP is going to be more than enough. Unless racing at the track, not sure what one can do with over 300HP. Most cars scoot along rather well with over 160HP in the lighter weights, and for those carrying the extra pounds, perhaps say anything over 200 or 225HP to carry the bulk is required. If too fat it is time for aluminum metals to add, or to take away some size to the beast.
Is this G8 the Commodore SS? Not bad looking. The front looks better as a Commodore (and he has a name) than the G8. The side profiles of the GM cars are starting to all look alike, though I guess it is OK. Why not just import the Holden as a, well as a Holden Commodore SS? Let's see a commodore and SS name plate both used together -- I'm thinking about that one. :shades: Is that a commodore of the secret service or is that ???
The car is OK, but not that killer hit -- that once in a decade sort of awe inspiring look I know GM design team can do. Now the Solstice and Sky had that appeal of a show topper, and gosh that looks really new look about them.
Loren
That to me was less discouraging than observing several Auras on my trip to LA last weekend with the rental car bar codes on the windows. I was not aware GM sold Saturns to the rental companies. Especially not new models that show promise. :-(
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Contracts are coming up so I would think the automakers would be looking for a two tier wage system, at least for benefits.
Where in MIchigan are you?
GM trimmed automotive-operations costs by $6.8 billion in 2006, $800 million more than projected, by shedding jobs and shutting plants. The cuts whittled fixed costs to 30 percent of revenue. The goal is 25 percent by 2010, and Wagoner reiterated last month that he plans to cut expenses by $9 billion this year.
GM's fixed costs are forecast to fall to $50 billion this year from $55 billion in 2005, including a reduction to $33 billion in North America from $41 billion.
Wagoner has identified $9 billion in cuts from the $55 billion in fixed costs reported at the end of 2005. That leaves about $7 billion, in some combination of reduced costs and increased revenue, to meet his financial targets.
“For 2007, we're building on and accelerating our progress,” Wagoner said. GM will continue working to cut health- care and labor costs in North America and increase sales outside the U.S.
"It's more can we keep our feet in front of us running every day," he said. Wagoner also said:
A deal appears near between GM, Delphi Corp., its former parts operation, and the United Auto Workers union, but he also would not give a timeline. "My sense is it's coming together," he said. "I tend to think the number of issues is narrowing." Delphi and its investors have been seeking wage reductions from its unions as it tries to emerge from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.
GM sees no more major announcements on plant closures or job cuts in the U.S. as it seeks to further cut costs.
The company is "entertaining the possibility" of restructuring and selling its medium-duty truck business.
GM is talking with Malaysian automaker Proton about a partnership, although he said that was "more a possibility for us than a probability."
"Why not just import the Holden as a, well as a Holden Commodore SS?"
Probably because the steering wheel is on the other side and there are no Holden dealerships in the US AND Holden is an unknown entity in this country. Just my guess.
I totally disagree with your notion that we really dont need more than 200hp in cars today. A car like the G8 would be terribly slow with 200hp due to its weight. 200hp is OK for cars weighing under 3200 lbs or so, but in heavier cars that will not get it done. Sure, the car will be able to cruise on the highway and get around town but it wont move with any authority.
Saturn now has all the tools it need to succeed either already there or soon to come in. Ironically they are becoming what Chevy should be.
Wait and see on styling. But, GM kind of fumbling around when naming cars. Buick model named after a milk, now a Pontiac model G8 named after a world leaders' conference (meeting in Europe this week) and other questionable naming such as Enclave. Think that GM could have done a lot better than G8 such as resurrecting Bonneville, Catalina, LeMans or other great model names from Pontiac's heritage. Buick has resurrected the Riviera name in a recent show car so there is hope for better naming in the future.
Using names from the past that had strong sales and good image/heritage would be positive. Of course, names such as Vega, Cimmaron, Catera, Alante, Citation, Phoenix, Chevette, Fiero, Sunbird, Reatta, Bravada, Rendesvous, Corsica, Aztek, Aurora, etc., have to remain buried forever.
Will the G8 be Gr8 or average.
Just think how fine the TV or radio commercials could have been when words "Pontiac lay-mah" were used. What class and sophistication in the sound. GM might have even shot some commercials at LeMans in France. Instead, we will hear a clunky "G8". LeMans will be "in" again what with better relations coming between US and France. 24 hour Race is later this month.
The bigger problem is that too many of the current model names GM is offering are also irrelevant to today's (retail) buyers...
As names go, I prefer Eldorado over Escalade and Enclave, Etc.
Yeap, you are right, the Scions have no names, yet the xB sort of means something to me. I call it the xBox. The latest xB no longer has the circus car cute look, darn it. Those little, first generation Box always brought a smile to my face. The crossbreeding of a Mini Cooper and a Mini van -- see what happens!
Loren
Pontiac is soon to become an importer. As names go, the G8 means less than Commodore. Although it may sound more like an old car, or something AMC would call a car. OK, call it a G8. Run those Tony Tiger ads and call that car Grrrrrr 8 !!! As for where to sell Holden, I guess the Pontiac dealerships have space on the lots, but so does Saturn.
GM needs to put their cars on a diet. Hey, want to run heavy HP and torque engines, that's fine too. Less weight and power = Grrrreat ! Can I quote you on it being a cheaper version of a BMW 5 series?
Loren
Now going to find something to eat at my little enclave, later..... Loren
Like Buick?
So clever! You are 100% right, thats why GM sales were up more than every automaker other than Toyota last month. Thats what irrelevant cars will do for you.
No, it's what higher incentives will do for you.
GM’s May incentives rose 6.1 percent from last May, to $2,950 per vehicle average.
Granted, that is better than the level of incentives for Ford and Chrysler, as Ford’s incentives rose by 4.6 percent to $4,040 per vehicle, while Chrysler's incentives soared by 7.1 percent to an average of $4,178 per vehicle.
But, it is worse than Toyota’s incentives, which averaged $1,140 per vehicle.
And note that the increase in vehicle sales was driven by a few models, and some of those models were obviously sent to fleets.
The Pontiac Grand Prix is up 71 percent...did it suddenly became that much more popular with retail buyers in just one month? I doubt it. Same for the Buick Terraza, up 29 percent.
GM hasn't done so much of that. Each time a model was redesigned it would also get a new name..remember when they went from Cavalier to Cobalt, Corsica to Malibu, Caprice to Impala? Not to mention Tracker to Equinox. Now it's looking like they're going to hang with the Malibu and Impala nameplates a while (especially since the Malibu has been fairly successful).
All of this comes from a melding of the arguments you mentioned....they'd change names because the name of the previous model brought back bad memories of the previous model. Have to see how things work out.
As far as the alphanumeric names, that only works if you've got product and brand enough to back it up. In the case of Mazda and Caddy, it has done so, because they're both strong brands. Pontiac doesn't quite have the product strength yet, since while they advertise "driving excitement" they're really not selling cars with much sportiness.
Just trying to be helpful,
Loren
:shades:
Actually overall fleet sales were down again and retail was up. Where did you get your obvious data? Do agree that the old GP is probably partially driven by fleet.
And I hope they get some sort of fuel-saving powertrain options in all the models, small ones included. I know they plan the hybrid for many models, but what about small diesels to cover the period until the Volt powertrain is ready for the road? The Opel Astra and Aura must use diesel engines in Europe, at least as an option.
Or at least get a hybrid powertrain that has more fuel savings then their current one.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I wish GM would keep all its model names as long as they have kept Malibu and Impala, then it would be easier to remember what specific ones actually were. :sick:
I like 62vette's posting of GM insider news. I am in absolute awe that the execs like Wagoner and Lutz have hung on as long as they have over there. It is thanks to them that the turnaround is working, slowly but surely, and I hope the board realizes that. And kudos to the board for allowing them to stay and finish their job rather than cutting and running as they have always done in the past.
I find I'm actually a believer now in the long-term prospects of GM. I wouldn't have said that two years ago, not a chance.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yep, 1.7 and 1.9L turbodiesels for the Astra and
AuraVectra.I kinda like the idea of a snout up front, as one will not feel as exposed as they do with the smallish nosed minivans. Should be easier to work on too.
I agree the prospects look better for GM than they did two years ago. Add another couple of years, and we shall see a bit more of the total picture. It would appear, from what is seen, that GM is a better than a coin flip for coming out of this alive. Better yet, if they can, over time, make all their goals and produce the most desired products and service, they may not have to revisit hard times for a good time to come. The roller coast will stop and everyone gets off before they get too dizzy from the ride. So far some of the happiest people in the GM world have the be those tied to Saturn.
Loren
I went 20 years between GM vehicles. I bought a '79 Sunbird in the spring of 1982 and a '77 Olds Omega in the summer of 1985. Both used, both did nothing to impress me.
In 2002, I bought my first Saturn, a loaded L300. Great car - still have it 4.5 years and 61K later. I now have 3 Saturns - my wife drives a VUE and my daughter an ION. While they may not be the most exciting vehicles out there, we all love the plastic side panels and the dealership experience, both during and after the sale.
Now that Saturn is getting some exciting product, I'm hoping that they will succeed.
I take it you believe the Cobalt to be equal to the Civic / Corolla.
And the Malibu is equal to the Accord? Perhaps the Aura XR is
The Aura XE is let's say equal to the i4 Accord or better, depending on how you look at it. I guess there is a lot which is purely subjective. Aura XE has more torque, and the Accord i4 better gas mileage. As for smoothness and what revvs well and blah,blah,blah, I won't go there. The arguments for and against seem just as valid to all posting one way or another -- all both sides make some good arguments. As for the interior, the Aura feels more confining and the looks --oops, yet another stumble into subjective. Current Malibu is dead, long live the New Malibu, which is another variant of the G6/Aura and will be better competition to the Japan makes.
As for reliability, results may vary. From those I have talked to that have owned Japan makes for seven to ten year time frames, I find very few of them that had problems. If you are enjoying the ride, the sort of VW love theory, then you may forget and forgive some repairs or quirks along the way. But what does that say about the driving experience? One would hope that the new Hondas are reliable, as they are mostly American made, with lots of American parts. The engine is built in USA. As for the red dot / black dot unfairness, I do see some black dots for say a Honda here and there. They had the now famous transmission problems, and well, I guess it stands out and is so talked about since failures as so far and few in-between.
Now for superiority, that all depends on what a person is looking for and achieving with their vehicle. As for needing repairs, let's say any can be in need of repair at any time, new or old. As for your Astro van, it may very well go to 150K +. Ya never know. My guess the average life is around 150K before serious events occur which may cost more than the van is worth to you.
Loren
I guess too many people complained about the wider gap required when fitting plastic door panels compared to the metal, so gone is the signature plastic Saturn. Now people have to park uphill from those nasty shopping carts.
Saturn/Opel dealerships I am sure will be much stronger with the new product. I agree, the plastic cars will be missed. The new Astra may be your daughters next car. After graduation, and big bucks made, the Astra would be fun sized like the Ion, but with Euro flare, handling, and perhaps more horsies under hood. Wonder if the current generation will appreciate the hatchbacks? The hatch is good to have now and then, but I prefer keeping items in truck and not in the open to fly. And the noise level is better in the coupe than the hatch. To each his or her own, no doubt.
Loren
I believe 5 mpg difference is possible. I have the S/C 3800 in my '99 Ultra, and get about 33 mpg on the freeway. That's only 5 mpg difference from your Corolla.
I'd buy another 3800 LeSabre tomorrow if something happens to one of mine. It'd be a flip between a LaCrosse or Lucerne.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
While you are at the dealer trying out that LaCrosse with the old engine, jump in one for a spin in with the 3.6 V6. Or try the XE and XR out at the Saturn dealership. Let us know what ya think.
Loren
I wonder what I'd get in a Cobalt...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Grand Rapids, Mi pal.
I'm back home here in Western Michigan. The Turf has changed and keeps growing. I see signs of job growth and the economy recovering but it will take an administration that uses common sense to save america and this state.
My family in the UAW 62' says they hear if the contract goes well and the work rules are loosened they believe GM, will build modern plants here in the U.S. once again.
-Rocky
I do know there is a serious differenc in performance and gas mileage between the GM 3800 and the Ford 3800. Just look at the HP and gas mileage differences over the years between the Camaro and Mustang. Looks like gas mileage is not worse for the Replicar Stangs, as that V6 used in the SUV is not so fuel efficient. May as well get the V8. Some talk of Ford going with the 3.5 V6 engine some day. Makes sense. The 25 MPG is not so hot for a six, with an automatic. The 3800 gets decent gas mileage and the torque is OK.
Once ya try the new 3.6 though, with even more HP and rev loving power even when up beyond the highway speeds, you could get hooked..... or maybe not. Can we agree the new engines make a better exhaust note? Will agree the OHV engine is something I could live with, especially if it is in a Corvette :shades: It's all good, I suppose.
Loren