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Comments
Loren
http://www.gminsidenews.com/naias/revitalization/buickria/
I think the Buick one is pretty good, except I think they should keep the Enclave.
Rocky
Rocky
Holy Smokes pal, that is one of the best links I've ever saw on edmunds.com :surprise: :shades:
I really appreciate your find. I like the Wildcat coupe a lot but still would rather it be a convertible and keep the name Velite. Wildcat, is a cool name but not as cool as Velite. I'd like them to perhaps use the Wildcat name on another car someday instead.
Rocky
Some people want the Chinese Park Ave to come over here, but IMHO I think it looks too much like the G8. I know, I know, it only shares the windshield and front doors, but selling them side-by-side in B-P-G dealers seems a bit risky. Maybe if they lifted the interior and shoehorned it into the lucerne from that site...
But yea this is the direction I want to see Buick going into. Bold 'americanized' styling (whatever that means) and competent powertrains.
Someone a while back said GM should just put their new hybrid system in all their cars. I say "why not?" Spread the costs over all the lineup. People want increased fuel economy without sacrificing performance, so give it to them. This way GM can prove how 'green' they really are.
Interestingly enough, the Lacrosse has a telescoping wheel and hasn't had anywhere near the success of the Impala. Same goes for G6, Aura and Malibu. The CTS lacks a telescoping wheel and has been very successful for Cadillac. STS has power tilt/telescope and has been a sales disappointment. Point being, there is little correlation between customer demand and presence of a telescoping wheel. This is just one feature that import fans like to over-emphasize because a significant percentage of domestics dont have it.
It (obviously) didn't keep me from buying either of our current GMs. But I was more than a little disappointed that GM offered this in a relatively inexpensive package, then failed to make it a standard on the rest of the lineup in place of the older setup. The Malibu's wheel allowed me to set perfect driver-to-instrument positioning easily-
1) Adjust seat so that back is at comfortable angle / height / tilt.
2) Adjust seat front-to-rear so that center console controls (radio / HVAC) are at best distance for ease of use without having to lean forward and without feeling like everything's TOO close / cramped.
3) Adjust power pedals to a comfortable distance based on seat distance.
4) Finally, adjust tilt-telescope wheel (infinite adjustment! NOT one of 3 to 5 individual settings) so that instrument cluster is clearly visible from the current seating position, and so that your arms feel like they are at a comfortable extension when holding the wheel properly (again, not OVER-extended, and not feeling like the wheel is on your *chest*).
I can get somewhat close with my other vehicles, but I often find myself adjusting the seat and dealing with a less than ideal relationship with the center console radio / HVAC in order to have my steering wheel feel comfortably located relative to the seat / pedals.
I guess for those of us that have had vehicles with this feature (especially GM vehicles in a lower price / luxury category!), it's kind of like being allowed to have a taste of the pie, and then having it taken away..
I thought the fit and finish good, the upholstry wasn't the mouse fur that I've seen in some rental Impala/Malibu's here in the states - it seemed nice enough.
Overall on the drive west from Calgary to the mountains I liked the car quite a lot.
In the mountains, I found it a bit overmatched for the conditions. Admittedly, however, the Canadian Rockies is quite a test for any car.
For mountain work, I felt that the car understeered and had to be more slowly and cautiously that I'd have liked. A few time the brakes faded (following trucks down mountainsides), and at least twice, I smelled what I thought was hot transmission.
Now, I honestly can't say if I expected too much from the vehicle dynamically and whether I have reasonable standards for judging the car's interior( the Lokki-mobile is a brand more known for it agility than comfort).
My theory which evolved from this trip is that in the mid-west, where GM reigns, car dynamics aren't a big factor. The country is wide and flat, and the general travel distance is relatively long.
In these conditions, GM style cars make sense. Lots of room in the interior, good power, and comfortable seats.
The converse is that on the coasts, smaller quicker handling cars are preferred because of twisting, winding roads. Again, engines that have to wind out to produce power aren't irritating (as they would be in the midwest) because you're always accelerating or slowing down for the winding roads anyhow. Trips aren't as long, so interior space, stretch-out style seating and general 'wiggle room' aren't so necessary because you're generaly likely to be in the car for only half an hour or so.
So, different driving conditions lead to the preferences for different types of cars in different areas of the country. For north/south we also have the FWD/RWD divergence.
FWIW
Loren
The customer is always wrong - they only need what we are willing to put in the vehicle so we can cut corners and save a buck, is so typical of the history of GM. It is one of the elements which sank domestic car sales.
That be fact Jack!
Loren
-grin
Rocky
GM's offensive would be haulted if it thinks it would get away with that sort of interior... :sick:
So, push it through make every single General Motors vehicle a hybrid with the 25% fuel savings, reduced emissions, and all.
Yeah, I agree though.......
Rocky
They left the SE off the list in the info they sent.
But, I just Found it on their Penske website.
2007 Honda Accord
Special Edition V-6 4dr Sedan (3.0L 6cyl 5A)
Model #: CM6647EW * Base MSRP: $23,350.00 (vs $25,895 for LX V6 Auto).
This is Also about the same price as a Lacrosse CX 4dr Sedan (3.8L 6cyl 4A)
MSRP $22,415 Invoice $21,182
Optional Equipment $1,940
CF5 Power Glass Sunroof $900
PDD Comfort and Convenience Package $690
radio controls on steer whl, remote start, leather steer whl, tilt and telescoping steer, dual zone climate control
PY0 16" Painted Aluminum Wheels $350
Destination Charge $685
Total with Options $25,040 INV $23,478
Incentives & Rebates -$1,250
Customer Cash Adjusted True Market Value $23,238 at $1,010 over invoice for Lacrosse. That's about the same as the Accord SE at 23,350 which may not include dest charge.
List of things on the Lacrosse and not on the Accord SE for about the same price:
remote start
sunroof
leather steer whl wrap
dual zone climate control
16" painted alloy wheels
power seat
power windows
steer wheel climate controls
content theft alarm system
Driver info center
On star
100k mi warranty on powertrain
6 year warranty on rust
unobtrusive trunk hinges
List of what's in Accord SE but not in Lacrosse for same price:
6 cd changer for CD
side air bags
stability control
Power?
244 HP and 211 ft-lbs T vs 200 HP and 230 Ft-lbs in Lacrosse.
About the same HP at 5200 rpm.
Lacrosse's 19 extra ft-lbs come at low revs (the useable range).
efficiency:
Lacrosse is rated at 30 mpg hwy, which is 1 more than Accord, though the Lacrosse is 150 lbs heavier, has 2 more cu ft in trunk, 3 more ins. wheelbase, 1 in. more rr leg room, and 1 in. more width inside fr and rr.
GM seems to be giving plenty of goodies in a roomier more efficient and probably quieter car.
Both cars can be had for less with negotiating, except GM card earnings can't be used on the Accord.
http://penskehondaindy.com/New-VehicleResearch.aspx
This doesn't match reality. see #1238
And thanks for pointing out the useful items, such as side air bags, stability control, and CD changer which are standard. I may add the 0-60 with the automatic is 6.6 sec.
I must say the LaCrosse is not a bad looking car. My preference though is for modern engines and for handling capabilities. But then again, I am nearing 55 and not 85 years of age, so it may be an age barrier.
Loren
Will the offensive work? Too soon to tell. Not trending in the right direction yet.
If you wanna see what a bankrupt company can still do check this out !!!!! Delphi, is a greedy corporation and yes miss managed by GM. It should of grown into the top 25 biggest corporations in the world. Delphi, was a winner of the 2005 most technologically advanced corporations and now like they did with XM radio, they will launch the first in car TV system.
Rocky
BTW: At what RPM were those maximum torque ratings. The torque available at 1500-2500 is where most transmissions and cars feel the torque. Rarely have I run my cars at 4500 to use the horsepower outputs. They frown on that in the surburban areas with 35/40/45 mph speed limits.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky
Rocky
The Accord is rumored to have a 270hp engine. So the TL might have about 285hp as standard, more than the base G8. But then again, The TL will be priced like a G8 V8, a disadvantage for Acura.
It will be too bad if GM doesn't build RWD cars here. The G8 could be much cheaper if it was built here. It would give the Chrysler 300 a run for the money. But as of now, the G8 might osell in limited numbers.
Rocky
P.S. How much power for the 09' TL ? Only 285 hp ? :surprise:
Think that this is wishful thinking. From all pictures and info, G8 not even in same league as Acura. Maybe CTS trying to compete with Acura, but not G8. Pontiac brand lost its lustre long ago and has to rebuild. It was "never" considered an entry level lux brand, but a step up from Chevrolet. Cadillac lost its image over the last few decades and now has to rebuild. Think that marketplace considers Caddy as entry level lux, in spite of high MSRPs on some of its offerings.
Remains to be seen how G8 performs in road tests and is received in marketplace. We will see what Edmunds, C&D, R&T, CR, etc say about this car.
Acura in present configuration, weight and size has more than adequate power. None additional is needed.
Based on size, performance and features the G8 will most definitely compete with the TL. It's larger, RWD, will offer more power and most of the same features. It makes no sense to say the CTS will compete with the TL but not the G8 when the Pontiac and cadillac are similar cars and will have some price overlap.
We can pretty much tell how the G8 will perform based on tests of the commodore in Australia. I cant guarantee the mags will like the car, but I cant find much they wouldn't like. If you want to pick on a GM car I think the G8 is the wrong one for sure. It's obvious you haven't read much about the car at all because you are speaking as if the G8/Commodore is an unknown entity with no track record. This is a legitimate sports sedan that will start well under $30k.
Yesterday's WSJ had an article about Chinese auto industry and GM joint venture there. It said that home-grown Chinese Chery brand has been increasing sales and finally caught up to and beat GM joint venture brand in March 07. Exports of Chery were increasing. Article said that Chinese were making fast improvements in quality. Suppose that they will try American market when they feel their quality matches other major players. Don't Chinese mfr the former IBM Thinkpads and import to US now? Seems that they can compete in higher tech product arena.
But, it is reality.
Acura brand has earned image, in 20+ short years, of luxury, performance, quality and reliability. The TL has an elegance, or panache, that Cad CTS has not yet achieved (maybe 08 model will help). Pontiac brand has never been perceived as a luxury, or entry lux, brand. It has always been a step up from Chevrolet.
The G8 is a Holden, wearing a Pontiac badge. Holden/Vauxhaul is well regarded throughout the rest of the world. Hence why cars like the Monaro has been compared with BMW and Mercedes. Of course, just because it will wear a Pontiac badge, it will most likely be labeled (especially on these forums) as "junk". Amazing how badge blinded people are nowadays...
Acutally, I thought it was merely your opinion. You are talking about brand image, I am talking about comparing two similar cars. I never said Pontiac's brand image was equal to that of Acura. It's amazing how people make bold statements such as yours and then forget about them once they dont prove true. In case you forgot, many skeptics said the same thing about the 300 when it came out. The thinking was "its a nice car, but I dont see people paying over $30k for a Chrysler when cars with better brand images exist". That turned out to be 100% wrong and many import owners traded for 300C's.
You say the CTS lacks panache and elegance and yet it costs more than the TL. Sure the base CTS is cheaper, but a loaded CTS is over $40k. The car has sold well and obviously the buying public liked the car enough to shell out $30k-$40k for many thousands of cars.
Pontiac is a step up from Chevy and Acura is a step up from Honda. Dont see your point. Acura's are just as related to Hondas as Pontiacs are to other GM brands.
This reminds me of the people who wont acknowledge the competence of the new Saturns simply because they are Saturns.
This reminds me of the people who wont acknowledge the competence of the new Saturns simply because they are Saturns.
You're missing the point, which, ironically, is proven by lackluster sales of the new Saturn Aura and Outlook - the very vehicles you reference in the second paragraph.
The Aura and Outlook are, by all accounts, very good vehicles.
But they aren't selling well (even GM has admitted that the Aura isn't near its 90,000 annual sales target) despite the fact that they are competitive offerings.
Why? For starters, people aren't used to visiting Saturn dealers for vehicles costing over $25,000.
Second, Saturn has an image (economy cars for people who don't like buying cars, or even like cars much at all), and, at this point, that image is not consistent with the market positioning of the Aura and Outlook (slightly upscale machines for people who appreciate driving).
Third, because it has so many brands and models, GM cannot promote its offerings properly. GM just doesn't have enough advertising money to tell enough people about these new vehicles.
The G8 looks like an interesting offering. But the brutal truth is that most buyers don't think of Pontiac when thinking of $30,000+ vehicles. And the Pontiac nameplate has no prestige at this point. When a vehicle's sticker starts north of $30,000, prestige of the brand starts to play a large role in buyers' decisions.
GM fans can rail against it all day, but "I just bought a new BMW (or Acura, or Audi, or Lexus)" is a lot more impressive in the real world than "I just bought a new Pontiac." The G8 will have to be truly spectacular - or run on non-fossil fuels - to get large numbers of people to consider it.
Unfair? Sure. But we take life as we find it, not as we wish it were.
It doesn't matter whether a bunch of posters on Edmunds.com acknowledge the competence of the new Saturns or the G8. What matters is whether, in the real world, enough people are willing to put their hard earned money down for those vehicles. Just ask a Saturn dealer if you doubt that one...
The Honda brand to Acura is more like the old Buick was to old Cadillac of days-gone-bye. Or perhaps the Bentley to Rolls Royce.
They did throw Buick a bone however with the Lucerne, and Pontiac got the Holdens. Both of those cars are really developed initially outside of the Buick/Ponitac home. Some extra boosters to keep some life in the brand name. If Pontiac became the RWD performance car importer, and Saturn the light weight / fuel efficient smaller / sporty import car division, so be it. It is not like the G6 will be needed after you have the Aura/Malibu, unless the G6 Coupe is sold in higher quantities. For some reason, perhaps advertising, or price, or not hitting the youth market, the G6 Coupe doesn't seem to be a big hit. Not a bad looking car. The hardtop convertible was kinda a neat idea, though lacking a roll bar. My guess is that those with money, or which are younger buyers, are snubbing the G6 coupes in favor of more expensive foreign brands. And the hardtop coupes don't seem to sell like Accord coupes, which truly are only a smaller percent of sales. Guess it is too small a pie, and is cut in smallest of slices. You never know, the coupes could some back. The BMW3 sell some. The Cadillac CTS coupe would be a boost to coupes. The Camaro and Mustangs sell. Just has to be hip I guess. Oops, I meant to say sick. I take it sick is a good thing.
:shades: Loren
If you think it best to stay with the old gal, and not come up with an all new Impala, all I can say is, Toyota thanks you!
Loren
so if this was 1980 you would be telling me Toyota wouldnt ever be successful selling large sedans, pickups and luxury cars? Of course you would because until 15-20 years ago Toyota was primarily a seller of small and medium sized four cylinder powered cars. Honda and Nissan started out the same way and stayed that way for many years. Your logic is flawed. People will buy good vehicles regardless of what the brand USED to stand for if they like the vehicles enough. The Saturns aren't selling well enough because of lack of marketing and refusal of import drivers to consider anything that isnt Honda, Toyota or Nissan. There is no proof that GM cant advertise for all its brands. I have seen MANY ads for the Aura but I cant say that all the ads have been effective. Most of them dont tell you much about the car vs the Camry/Accord and I think that's a mistake.
"The G8 looks like an interesting offering. But the brutal truth is that most buyers don't think of Pontiac when thinking of $30,000+ vehicles."
How many class competitive sports sedans costing over $30k does Pontiac offer right now? None last time I checked. That being said, I dont see why anyone would be considering a Pontiac when shopping for a TL or G35. That's like saying people dont consider the Uplander when shopping for a minivan. If you offer something competitive some people (those who arent brand slaves) will check out your product.
"GM fans can rail against it all day, but "I just bought a new BMW (or Acura, or Audi, or Lexus)" is a lot more impressive in the real world than "I just bought a new Pontiac." The G8 will have to be truly spectacular - or run on non-fossil fuels - to get large numbers of people to consider it."
Just speak for yourself if you can. I personally am not impressed by the badge on your car or anyone else's. When I look for a car I am concerned about style, performance and VALUE. Unfortunately (acura excluded) most prestigous brands do not offer value. What they do offer is high monthly payments in exchange for impressing brand snobs.
In case you missed it, Pontiac is only trying to move 40k G8s next year. That aint a lot of cars by a long shot. Even if the car is in high demand it wont be a big seller in it's first year. People are making excuses for the Fit by saying it would sell more if HOnda could make more. I suspect we'll be saying the same thing about the G8. Again, see my earlier reference to the 300C to understand why I am dismissing your predictions of failure. Please explain to me how the G8 is different from the 300 which was also deemed to be a big gamble due to it's price.
I doubt you will see a new car before 2009. When in the world did I ever say GM shouldnt redesign the car? You said the car is due for an immediate redesign because it's unappealing. I said that wasn't true but I never said GM should let the car remain in its current state for another five years.
Your bias is leading you to make some questionable statements. The 300 is hardly overpriced considering what you get. You might want to note that the 300C is the highest trim level and comes with more than a V8 engine. To suggest you are paying extra for the engine only is absurd. You also say the new CTS has equipment that should've been standard on the current model. That makes no sense because aside from acura luxury models are all about options. Check out the meager standard equipment on a base A4, C230 or ES350 if you don't believe me. The new CTS has almost every feature one would expect in this class and Cadillac is going to charge you for most of them just like their competitors. The new CTS interior is equal to that of it's competitors, this has been noted by the media. I dont know what you mean by "some day" because the car was introduced 4 months ago and has been thoroughly reviewed by the media. "some day" is going to be here in a couple of months when the 2008s hit dealerships.