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Comments
Are subtier suppliers owned by Americans?
Do Americans engineer the cars?
What is the domestic content?
How does the companies ratio of non-base-level employees compare to that of what I consider to be American companies?
Am I being lied to in their advertising?
Do they support the U.S. colleges with co-op programs?
Are the wages paid by the manufacturer to the assemblers undercutting the American wage for the same work?
Is buying the car supporting the transfer of American technology and intellectual property to the foreign country?
Where is the trade defecit headed and how would my purchase affect that?
How much would it annoy CR if I bought the car?
To be perfectly fair, we have no way of definitively ascribing those comments to Michiganders. Personally, I'll stay away to avoid the abysmal real estate market and sky-high unemployment. There are plenty of great places to visit in Western/Northern Michigan, however (although the burgeoning crystal meth epidemic in a lot of the rural counties is a little disconcerting).
On topic: I find a most of the Free Press/News coverage of the domestics to be pretty pollyannaish. But the same could be said of the New York papers' coverage of the financial markets or the LA papers' coverage of the entertainment industry. It's human nature to prop up the big game in town.
62vetteefp, was in management at General Motors. I would like to know who he really is myself as he does have a lot of knowledge. You can read his posts and figure out he was quite high and perhaps a decision maker
Now 62' brings up a valid point about the CAW. The CAW, does indeed have more flexible work rules than the UAW. However the UAW, at many big 3 plants have loosened those work rules. I guarantee you next contract (September) those restricted work rules at the plant that haven't adapted will be gone and the Lansing, Mi. plant model will be in affect where workers work in small teams/groups to accomplish tasks. I still think the UAW, will ask for in return that General Motor's invest's money in this country to build new modern facility's in a set number of years.
I also think you both failed to mention a vital key the Canada, has over us and that is a lot cheaper health care. via national health care. This little tid bit has saved General Motors, hundreds of millions if not billions over the years I would assume.
So nippon, would I leave General Motors, at a drop of a hat if they start importing chinese made cars ??? It would be a emotional dagger. I don't know how I would react. I hope that day never comes. I am upset over the importation of automobiles from Australia, but at least those automobiles have 65% domestic content and Australia, is a friend and good trading partner. They also are a 1st world democracy with human rights and do have labor unions. The Aussies's are buying mostly an american made car with the Holdens.
Anyone have reliable figures ?????
The three things that are most important to me:
#1 How much domestic content does this automobile have and where is it made ?
#2 Is it union made ?
#3 Where is the money I spend going ? Is it staying here or leaving ?
If GM, doesn't meet my criteria someday I will look for other choices. If the Acura TL, had a little more domestic content and was UAW, made I would probably without a doubt be driving one of them again as that car fit's my perfect car criteria as in looks, price, quality, fuel economy, performance.
Rocky
Well you bring up a valid point. I guarantee you this....GM, would go bankrupt here in North America, unless they found enough nuts to buy their Chin-E class cars.
Look you guys opened up a can of worms. NIPPON !!! :P
Rocky
Rocky
We are the original owners of a 1994 Mercury Villager. The Villager/Quest has a Nissan engine and transaxle with a Ford body.
Although it is now our third car, we still drive the Villager (Drove 400 miles this weekend to a camping trip). We have 220K miles on it and have never done any major work on the engine or transmission. It's not burning any oil, either. Nissan makes some great hardware.
On your criteria list, the Aveo goes one for three: It has no domestic content and is made in a place where you said they are union-busting. However, the profits do ultimately go to GM, which last I heard is still headquartered inside these United States. ;-)
So how many models like Aveo will it take for you to quit the home team? You are correct that all the Holdens will be built in a place where western-style labor laws and unions are alive and well. So they shouldn't be a moral problem.
Now as for the American healthcare issue, it aint going away any time soon. So you have just named one of the best reasons there is for GM to switch as much production as possible to Canada. While I wonder why they don't set up more in Mexico, I applaud them for not doing so (although they certainly have their share of Mexican production, maybe not as much as Ford though, and isn't Chrysler pretty well invested south of the border too?). That is a much less educated and sophisticated (and literate) workforce, and stuff like that is bound to show up at the end of the assembly line, seems to me.
Folks, I don't think you should sound so incredulous about the idea of there eventually being Chinese-built GM cars for sale in the U.S. Chrysler has already come out and started that ball rolling. If Chrysler can do it, why not GM? And in GM's case it is much more logical, as they have a booming enterprise there all their own, whereas Chrysler will be teaming up with a wholly Chinese operation to build their cars.
It will be intriguing to see where this goes. The reason the supply of Honda Fits has been so constrained for the last year is that they made the conscious decision NOT to sell Chinese Fits in the U.S., preferring to lose profits rather than take the chance that there would be an American backlash to such a move. Yet here is Chrysler going ahead. I wonder if there will really be a backlash. I think not, unless those darn Hornets are just falling apart 100 yards down the road from the dealerships.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Take the possibility of a national health care for USA and the good fortune of China sales on GM, and hopefully some more concessions from the UAW as good fortune. I would not temp fate by buying Chrysler as a fit in any way into the GM fold. Jeeps and minivans may be a positive, but too much overhead with the rest.
Haven't heard too much about Ford lately, other than truck ads. Are they still in business? Heard that sales of Mazdas are up. Around here, I just don't see it for cars anyway. They noted great sales in crossdresser and SUVs, so I guess that is what sells. Actually the crossover thing they have looks pretty cool. Most SUVs are pretty boring. Mazda and Nissan at least offer something futurist / modern looking. Wonder how the balance sheet will look at Ford in a couple years? Will the B word be used soon for a US car company?
How many parts used to make the future Buicks in China will be domestic content to China? Are the current Buicks Holdens? Is this a partnership with China? Or are these cars truly GM cars made in China? Opel seems to have been a good buy for GM all so many of years ago. Perhaps China is a great investment for GM, though there could always be some shaky times ahead due to the powers in charge in China. That's life - risky / reward. Am I wrong in assuming GM could never actually run a company within China like they do Opel in Germany as a wholly owned by GM/USA company?
Loren
-Rocky
Ya gotta check this out !!!!!!
http://www.gminsidenews.com/index.php?page=Future_Product_Guide
So what do you all think ???????
-Rocky
Lemko, have you ever seen the new Roadmaster and LaCrosse ?
-Rocky
-Rocky
http://www.gminsidenews.com/naias/revitalization/saabria/9-1.shtml
-Rocky
My god Pontiac, why didn't you guys style it like this ????
The guy who is responsible for designing the current grill should be taken to the firing squad. :sick:
-Rocky
I guess we shouldn't worry it's just a glitch ! :P
-Rocky
Turnaround hurt as weak housing market, rising gas prices hit industry
DETROIT -- A slumping pickup market is hindering General Motors Corp.'s turnaround effort in North America just as the automaker was gaining momentum.
GM was counting on its new full-size GMC Sierra and Chevrolet Silverado pickups to be smash hits, but the new trucks launched late last year are taking longer to sell than the outdated models they replaced, and they're leaving showrooms with just $420 less in incentives.
GM sold 200,505 of the trucks through the first three months of 2007, according to Edmunds.com, a figure one GM insider said fell well below internal projections.
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070501/AUTO01/705010392/1148
Rocky
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070501/AUTO01/705010334/1148-
Well maybe something positive is going to happen finally ?
-Rocky
Here is something I found on the Web:
http://www.chevytrucks.org/resources/history_of_chevy_trucks.htm
Family had an old, I think it was '50 Chevy truck. Talk about rough riders! Hey, those were all business. As kids we got to ride in the back. Safety was not much on the minds of people back in the early 60's.
Good night from the left coast, Loren
"Base Platform: Enhanced Delta II"
Sorry, but if I were going to get a FWD car that size I'd already be down at the Saturn dealer waiting for the Astras to come off the boat. The only Cobalt-size car I'm interested in is this.
2011 LaCrosse? Maybe at the latest 2010. Uh, they are killing the 3.8L plant very soon.
Rocky
-Rocky
are you sure they pay high taxes in Canada ? I figured Canada, gave corporations big breaks to do business there ?
-Rocky
WRONG. My dad, my grandpa, may other grandpa, some of my uncles were all lifetime GM UAW employees (well my dad did become a Foreman, then a non degreed engineer, but I will always remember him going to work in his corvair with a bat to protect his union job)
I still have a brother and cousin and a bunch of others in the UAW.
I was also a union member in the Flint Chevrolet plants for 6 months during summer work.
Pretty much all of them saw the writing on the wall a long time ago. They saw how hard they did not have to work. How many would go to the bar at lunch and get drunk. How stupid it was to need 5 guys to do a one man job. I watched my 2nd shift coworkers do 8 hours of work in 3 hours so they could go to the bar for 5 hours and then come back and check out.
No, it is not like that anymore but it once was. There still is a lot of improvement to be made with work rules and allowing the plants to become more efficient.
Off my little soapbox
Come on Rock. that is only temporary untill they get the Oshawa plant running in one/two years.
How much domestic content does a GM/Daewoo, have ? Like the AVEO ?
6%
I believe the Acura TL is 100% non american parts. RSX is.
On the other hand, I'm more of a "could-care-less" kinda guy. Give me the best product for my needs within my budget, and I'll consider it. I know this isn't great for the US, but that's not my fault either. It seems that what's good for the US isn't all that important for the vast majority of the population in the first place. Worse, in many cases lots of folks are actively anti-US-interest in their stances.
I can't blame any of the car companies for moving to source parts and assembly from areas advantageous to their bottom lines. And when we in the US have gone so far as to make it easy for foreign competition to get a leg up, where do you think those advantages move to? This isn't just a symptom of automotive products either..
Labor is much cheaper in Mexico but at this time the plants are very low tech. There are a lot of workers in those plants. But very little investment.
Many may not believe it but GM really wants to build their vehicles here in the US and Canada. Issue is they are losing money and are not competitive. Their back is against the wall. As we all know the most unprofitable segment is small cars and they hope that vehicles like the Astra and Aveo being built overseas will come close to a profit. My guess is that they will build a plant in Mexico to build the Astra/Aveo sized vehicles once the volume is up to support a plant. How can anyone be expected to build a plant if they only use 50% of the capacity and even with gas prices approaching $3, subcompacts just are not selling huge numbers.
What could have been said is that GM took a risk and it paid off. Even in times of $3-$4 gas prices, housing market slump with concurrent drop in contractors income, new crossover vehicles, new competition (Toyota) that GM pick up sales were still up 4.8% for the first quarter! What a success story! If the trucks had not been redone sales would probably be down 14% like Ford.
Yes, GM would like to see more volume but times are tough and it is only going to get worse guys. GM has taken their pension funds out of stocks for a reason. Get the hint.
Well 62, why do they build so much in Canada, and not here if it costs about the same ? :confuse:
Do you think if the UAW, really relaxes it's stance on work rules that GM, will re invest here in the U.S. pal ???
-Rocky
P.S. I didn't know you were that connected like me. Sorry if I upset you a bit. :surprise:
That's what I fear. I'm glad you told me that as I was considering getting back in the market with my 401K once we go back to work. I guess I'll leave it in my interest only bond account for a while.
Rocky
If so you gotta let me know so I don't go buy a new automobile and then shoot myself in the foot. When do you expect it ? (year)
Rocky
Rocky
That's no small feat, considering the TL is built in Ohio. You may be thinking of the TSX (Euro Accord).
-Rocky
They are already reinvesting in plants here and in Canada. However some are on "hold" because of hold outs in the union. GM needs freeer work rules. They are not asking for lower per hour wages. Yes a little help with pension and medical but no more than what the salary already gave up.
Rocky
Honda is 75% built built here. The Honda Marque is truly an american built division.
As far as the Canadians go I do support them as they are like another state, instead of another country. I like Canadians and some of my ancestors came from Canada.
-Rocky
Rocky