....though I guess I shouldn't be; it's too bad GM (and Chrysler and Ford, to a lesser extent) waited until they were in dire straits to figure out that they actually needed to DO something, other than take government hand-outs and sell their cars at a loss, all the while paying auto workers ridiculous wages and benefits, IMO.
Anywho, the end of Pontiac makes me sad; my uncles in particular had many, many: a '70 GTO, '69 Firebird, '76 Grand Prix, '75 Grand LeMans. My grandparents had a '60 Catalina wagon (traded on a '69 Kingswood Estate the week I was born, I think) and a '63 Tempest, which my mom apparently loved as a teen. I've always liked Pontiac's styling, just a bit sportier/fancier than a Chevy without being ostentatious (save for the screaming chicken). Pontiacs are still my favorite '60s cars, in general.
Oh yeah, my aunt had one of those 4-cylinder Firebirds, too (an '82 or '83), I learned to drive on it. It was nice looking (silver with burgandy interior), handled nicely, but not so well made, and needless to say, with the automatic, dog slow.
65 Grand Prix 421 tri-power, 68 Firebird 400, 71 Firbird Formula 400, 71 Trans-Am 455 HO.
I observed a deterioration in body integrity, paint finish from 65 to 71. 65 had best paint, 68 next best, both 71's had poor paint quality. But, both 71's had improved handling and brakes over the 68. Of course, all Firebirds handled substantially better than full-size 65 Grand Prix. Father took over 65 Grand Prix and had it till about 81-82.
The Trans Am was reasonably fast, 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and handled well as did the 71 Formula. The 65 Grand Prix had been intended as a luxury car with a big engine and it handled terribly, but probably better than Dodges, Fords, Chevies of similar wieght in that model year. It had HD suspension and aluminum brake drum wheel centers. Brakes were not that good though. The Grand Prix with 421 tri-power setup and 4-speed was fast in a straight line.
For a number of years, wife and I owned and drove all 3 Firebirds. She had a little difficulty with shifting Ttrans-Am with its bear-trap-like clutch. The Trans-Am was white with blue stripe, 71 was medium metallic blue, 68 was red. We were indeed patriotic - red, white and blue and American brand Pontiac. Have photos of all 3 together on driveway in shoe box somewhere.
"Now that Pontiac is officially dead, it's easy to pick at its bones and catalog everything that went wrong - from "A" for Aztek to "P" for Parisienne and "S" for Sunfire. But Pontiac is where the muscle car was invented and it was where it came closest to being perfected."
The Parisienne actually wasn't a bad car. Where Pontiac made its biggest mistake IMO was dropping their full-sized cars after 1981 and then transferring the Bonneville name to what had been the LeMans. This smaller Bonneville's sale peaked the first year, at around 80,000 units. Less than either the 1981 LeMans or the 1981 Bonneville.
Pontiac realized their mistake, and that there was still some demand for big cars, so in mid-1983 they rushed and threw together the Parisienne. It only sold about 17,000 units that first year, but by 1986 managed around 86,000...not too bad for a brand that was trying to focus on performance and youthful cars, and as a result didn't see too much marketing. They look good in black, with rally wheels and out of the skirts.
Too bad G8 came in 2008. If it had come out 10-15 years ago, and had time refining, would have given it consideration. But, been spoiled with quality/reliability of Hondas/Acuras/Nissan over last couple decades, would be hard going back to American brand.
GM did not have a clue about building a "true" performance/handling car such as 3 series. G8 came too late.
Today, have Acura TL 04 & 07, Honda Odyssey for utitilty duties.
Have had other "sporty" cars in past such as 67 Mustang GT high perf 289, 69 Barracuda 340S.
Have any of you seen the "Cheviac" that YouTube user 'Davidsfarm' has? It's a rather beat-up '86 Parisienne with some funny-looking exhaust pipes coming out of the hood. The videos are a hoot to watch.
My only fond Pontiac memory was cruising to FLA spring break in my buddies '85 black Trans Am. The car made that trip at least twice if I can remember. It looked exactly like the car from "Knight Rider". People used to kid him by talking into their watches and saying "Kit, I need you buddy". :P
Oh, I would be afraid to buy it as well - but it's a good looking Buick. Much better than our Lucerne. It's uncanny how much it looks like a Lexus inside. That's all I'm saying.....
I haven't always been a Pontiac fan, but there are a few that definitely struck a cord. Pretty much any of the 1st or 2nd gen Firebirds. Oddly enough, I was in highschool when the 3rd gen appeared and I had read about and then seen this gorgeous 5 speed S/E V6 model they had. The magazine had touted the V6's handing prowess due to the light 2.8L V6 TBI motor in the front end. The car was dark red metallic over grey cloth with the polished dish styled wheels. That was the car I wanted back then!
Now the G8 GT is the one I would want. Sadly it's just not in the cards right now. GM screwed Pontiac when they abandoned the over the top styling of the late 90's. Ok, they went a bit far for my tastes by then, but the blue collar crowd bought them by the thousands. Yeah, they were not as sporty to drive as they tried to look, but they did sell. The G6 and the like simply were way too clean and generic looking. I never will understand what GM was thinking by trying to reinvent the mark instead of simply letting it evolve in such a way as to keep those that were buying them happy. Afterall, love 'em or hat'em, before the G era cars came out, Pontiacs were recognizable. Personally I think that they should have kicked Buick to the curb. That would have made alot more sense.
About this time a year ago, I bought my first PONTIAC badged vehicle, ever. My wife took it over happily as hers. We got the "almost" Pontiac: The Vibe.
"Let's face it: Time to let Pontiac brand go," by Mark Phelan. Unfortunately for Pontiac fans, I think Phelan's observations, dated 4/27, are spot on. Here they are...
"Killing Pontiac will generate huge headlines and angst over what ultimately will be a trivial issue in General Motors’ struggle to survive.
Like a family vacation house no one visits anymore, Pontiac had outlived its usefulness. Times are hard; money is tight. Phasing out Pontiac, as GM CEO Fritz Henderson announced today, 'is the responsible decision: Invest scarce resources where you live. Let the old place go.'
No matter how necessary, decisions like this are inevitably painful. Fans of Pontiacs will rage against GM, and understandably so.
For some time, though, Pontiac has existed more as faded photos in the family album than an active participant at the dinner table.
The departed GTO, Firebird and Catalina convertible are Pontiac’s past. The fact that the brand had no future became painfully clear last year, when the marvelous G8 sport sedan failed to make a ripple in the market, despite looks and performance that rivaled the BMW 5-series at a fraction of the price.
If the G8 couldn’t build excitement, sales and profit for Pontiac, nothing could.
The brand had no future. GM tacitly acknowledged that in December when it said Pontiac would become a niche brand — one or two sporty cars sold alongside Buick and GMC’s profitable full-line model range.
From that day forward, Pontiac became nothing more than a marketing expense: the cost of reminding customers the brand still existed and making minimal changes to models from other brands to justify a different badge.
There’s no vehicle in Pontiac’s current or future lineup that can’t be done better for one of GM’s core brands: Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet and GMC. The first proof of that hits the road shortly when the promising 2010 GMC Terrain compact crossover SUV replaces the lackluster Pontiac Torrent in showrooms.
The Torrent was essentially a rebadged Chevrolet Equinox, a hoax perpetrated on the buyers who believed Pontiac’s promise 'We build excitement.' It takes more than a new badge, grille and a few suspension tweaks to make a vehicle special, and the public greeted the Torrent with a yawn. The Equinox consistently outsold the Torrent by about 3 to 1.
The Terrain, by contrast, has a different body and more features than the 2010 Equinox. GMC vehicles sell at a higher price and in higher numbers than Pontiacs, largely because the brand has a stronger and clearer identity than the muddle Pontiac had become.
The Terrain promises to top anything the Torrent ever achieved. The same could easily apply to other models Pontiac might have gotten in its future as a niche brand.
Focusing on the core brands and ending the charade that kept Pontiac going is the only responsible course. Doing anything else amounts to repainting the vacation cottage while the roof over your family’s heads collapses."
I am thinking back, and I can't recall hardly anyone in my family having a Pontiac. I think my dad had a 1960 back when it was almost new, and an uncle had a Nova Ventura in the 70s...but that's all that comes to mind.
Shame an old brand with a good history (a long time ago) has to die, but few mourn the passing of Olds, so this will be a distant memory in not too long.
....as I still have mine. I picked up an every-option 2000 Trans Am Ram Air WS6 in Nov 2000 with 6K miles on it. At the time the demise of the F-bodies was big talk at GM, although they lingered on through 2002. Anyway, the car is dark blue over black with the 6-speed Hurst shifter, is a blast to drive, and out of all the GM cars I've owned over the years (there have been many) I've got to say that 9 years later this one ranks at the top of my list as far as reliability and durability. It just turned 30K this year; my neighbors give me a hard time about the car only coming out of the garage to be washed. And although my wife refers to it as a "throwback to the 70s" I feel like a kid again every time I get behind the wheel. This is what Pontiac is supposed to be all about. It is too bad that it went in another direction. Maybe I'll grab one of the last G8s to accompany it but the T/A is a keeper, especially now.
2024 Ram 1500 Longhorn, 2019 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2019 Ford Mustang GT Premium, 2016 Kia Optima SX, 2000 Pontiac Trans Am WS6
For years there was a relatively large market for mid-priced car brands. Back in the 60's Ford LTD and Chevy Caprice went after some of those middle priced makes while cars like the Chrysler Newport and Buick LeSabre put out models that appealed to the higher end of the lower cost brands. But middle priced cars still were strong. Now we've seen Olds and Pontiac go, and wonder if brands like Mercury, Chrysler and Buick will be next. The world seems to be shifting to the Toyota-Lexus two tier approach. However, with the economy down for awhile you'd think some luxury buyers might be looking for a lower priced middle ground? Of course, the luxury marquees seem to have digressed into higher priced Lexus and Caddy's versus somewhat more moderately priced Lincoln's and Acura. Maybe its not so much a question of product offerings as it is the fixed and supply chain costs of each brand you have? I know a 1% or 2% reduction in supply chain costs can have the same impact on the corporate bottom line as a 10% or greater increase in revenue. What do you think; can a middle priced brand survive any more?
Ummm, do you characterize the brand that sold the G3 and G5 to be a midpriced brand? Because they were pretty cheap, and I don't think it was prices that killed Pontiac.
The only rental car I have ever had that broke down was a Pontiac.
I have had enough rental Grand Ams and Grand Prixs in my lifetime to fill a football field. Never noticed any excitement.
A decade ago I had a roommate with an 80s Firebird that he cursed regularly. The amount of money he put into that thing to keep it going was really just a crime, given that it was a seriously crude car to drive - terrible build, terrible ergonomics (such as they were), no handling to speak of. But he was from the Midwest and devoted to that car - had dreamed of a Firebird since he was a little kid. Wonder what he drives today.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That's a good point. GM watered down their brand names and product offerings like the infamous X and A cars. Ford did the same thing over at Mercury. In the 60's a Buick compact was noticeably nicer than a Chevy and in much of the 70's a Buick Skylark was a much nicer ride than a Malibu. But that came to a screeching halt later in the 70's. Maybe that poisoned people's opinion of mid priced brand names?
My one & only Pontiac was a 73 Grand Am. It had more probems than I can count, always in the shop for something & got absolutely lousy mileage. Went from the Grand Am to a 78 Buick turbo Regal. Not quite as bad as the grand am but still nothing but trouble. Haven't owned a GM car Since.
As you say, when the low priced brands went after the mid priced brands, they upset the market and it hasn't been the same since. It made the mid priced brands offer their own badge engineered cheapos to try to capture some sales, this diluted brand equity, new customers didn't see any more value in a mid priced car compared to a loaded low priced car, and the viability of the mid priced brands died. The two brand strategy seems more reasonable, simply for lower overhead. It's worked pretty well for the Japanese, even for nonentities like Acura.
I can't imagine Mercury can survive unless it sees a real product revolution, and as it hasn't had much identity for maybe 30-40 years, that seems doubtful. Chrysler of course is doubtful to survive at all, and Buick might end up being an Asia-only marque.
The demise of mid priced brands might be a good relation to the eventual decline of the middle class, which like cars will become a deluxe low class.
For Pontiac, Quality Comes Too Late By James G. Cobb
"Pontiac G8 GXP. General Motors will phase out the Pontiac brand in 2010, said Fritz Henderson, president and chief executive of G.M., in a press conference this morning. I had heard that G.M. was giving up on Pontiac last week, at virtually the same time G.M.’s car delivery guys were taking away the test car I’d been driving for a week: a 'liquid red' Pontiac G8 GXP. So in some small measure, the news, though anticipated, was personal. I felt as though I were losing my new best friend.
The G8 GXP is a terrific car. I’d rate it at or near the top of the list of 20-odd new vehicles that I’ve tested this year, and the less rascally G8 GT is high on the list as well. As Eddie Alterman wrote in his perceptive review of the G8s in The Times last December (before he moved on to become editor in chief of Car and Driver), these impressive new Pontiacs arrived at Detroit’s party as the floors were being swept and the last drunks were staggering out. 'It’s too much, too late,' he wrote.
All too true, and, for those who recall when Pontiac was the life of that party, so sad.
Brian Williams, the anchor of 'The NBC Nightly News,' remembers. His family’s first new car was a mint-green 1967 Pontiac Catalina. A couple of months ago, when G.M. began to hint that Pontiac would have a limited future (as a 'sub brand' with a limited range of models), I was invited to appear on the Nightly News to reminisce about what Pontiac once meant.
It’s easy to understand why anyone born after the mid-1960s may not shed any tears when Pontiac is read its last rites. They’ve known the G.M. division mostly for its generic midsize cars like the 6000 and the Grand Prix, largely indistinguishable from Buicks, Chevys and Oldsmobiles; for its Firebirds that became increasingly alien-looking through the years; for its unimpressive Sunfires and Grand Ams and unremarkable latter-day Bonnevilles; for its half-hearted attempts to sell mummified minivans (TransSports, Montanas, Azteks) wrapped up in plastic lower-body cladding.
It was a different scene in the division’s glory days, which ran roughly from the late 1950s till the mid-1970s, a period that neatly coincided with my own obsession for the automobile. I recall marveling at my Uncle Charlie’s ’57 Super Chief hardtop, whose Indian-head ornaments (one atop each front fender) glowed when the headlights were on. I spent hours pretend-driving the yellow ’55 Chieftain Catalina that I ranked highly among the many cars that passed through my older brother’s hands before he graduated from high school.
But it was in the 1960s that Pontiac really got serious about building excitement, with the classy Grand Prix and the sporty 2+2 added to a line that included flashy Bonnevilles, perky Tempests, the jaunty LeMans. Headlights were stacked, grilles were split and the cars’ track (the distance between opposing wheels) was widened. The modern muscle car was born when John DeLorean wedged a 389-cubic-inch V-8 into the 1964 Tempest, creating the GTO. The brand had buzz, barely a decade after its image was so boring that Pontiacs were derided as “cars for librarians.”
Back to the present, and a car that is surely one of the best sedans Detroit has ever offered: For those who don’t track the comings and goings of car models the way Jimmy the Greek kept tabs on the arms of NFL quarterbacks, the GXP is the high-performance version of the G8, a largish (though not unwieldy) sedan that feels thoroughly American, in the best sense of that characterization. The $40,000 GXP combines a Corvette V-8 engine with a remarkably lithe suspension, impressive brakes, superlative steering and a classy, comfortable cabin. After testing it on closed tracks, credible auto writers have compared it favorably with the BMW M5, which costs about twice as much.
If Pontiac had offered cars this good 10 years ago, it wouldn’t be flat-lining now in the critical care unit. Of course, if G.M. had made a serious effort to build overengineered cars like the G8 20 years ago, there would be no talk of bankruptcy or slicing the company’s “good” assets from its mistakes.
But the G8 damns G.M.’s management on another level, for this excellent yet very American-feeling sedan actually started out half a world away. It is heavily based on the Holden Commodore, a product of G.M.’s Australian subsidiary, and thus joins a long list of well-designed, carefully engineered, highly competitive automobiles created by G.M. subsidiaries around the world. Until recently such products were largely denied to the American consumers who have been telling the company for decades – with their closed checkbooks and their mass defections to foreign brands – that they wanted Detroit to give them world-class cars.
Now a few of those cars are here. They are Pontiacs with Australian accents. And they are about to become orphans."
Ummm, do you characterize the brand that sold the G3 and G5 to be a midpriced brand? Because they were pretty cheap, and I don't think it was prices that killed Pontiac.
That's exactly the problem with Pontiac...they're supposed to be a mid-priced brand, a step up from Chevy, but somewhere along the line they lost that.
Pontiac's problems are most likely rooted in the 1970's. All of a sudden, performance was a dirty word, but that's precisely what Pontiac had been building their reputation on since 1957. So they started shifting to personal luxury, that neoclassic look with pretentious grilles and bulging fenders and too many curves in all the wrong places that was supposed to evoke the 1930's...but it didn't. Pontiac's 1969 Grand Prix was the first car to go this route, and was pretty successful, as it still had some performance, but suddenly Pontiac began applying it to the whole lineup.
Pontiac also started trying to be all things to all people in the 1970's. When the Grand Ville came out, it was trying to go head-to-head with the Buick Electra and Olds 98. And with the Astre, Sunbird, and Ventura, it was going toe-to-toe with Chevy.
And all of a sudden, a Pontiac wasn't such a big step up from a Chevy. For instance, back in 1967, if you bought a Pontiac Catalina, it came standard with a 400 cubic inch V-8. And that was the cheapest big Pontiac. It was about the equivalent to an Impala, as the Biscayne and Bel Air were pretty much bare-bones rental/fleet cars by that time. Still, an Impala came standard with a 230 inline 6. The Pontiac had 290 hp standard, while the Chevy had about 145. To be fair though, the Pontiac required hi-test fuel, so there was a de-tuned 400 credit option, that put out something like 255-260 hp.
With Chevy, if you wanted a V-8, the next step up was a 283 that had around 195 hp. It would be replaced with a 200 hp 307 for 1968. The next step beyond that was a 327, which had 250 hp with the 2-bbl, or 300 with the 4-bbl. So basically, you had to go up three options from the base engine to get to about where the Pontiac was, standard.
By the 1970's though, a 350 V-8 was pretty much standard in the big Chevies. A 250-6cyl was standard, but the vast majority were V-8. By the time net hp kicked in, a '72 Impala had 165 hp, from a 350-2bbl. A 1972 Catalina had 170 hp, from a 400-2bbl. The gap was pretty much closed.
When downsizing became all the rage, the standard engine in a Chevy Impala/Caprice was a 250-6cyl. In a Catalina, it was a 231 V-6. So by this time, the Chevy was actually getting the better engine! More reliable and durable, about the same hp, but a little more torque. And smoother!
After the first fuel crisis, Pontiac never really recovered when it came to mainstream mid- and full-sized cars. The Grand Prix was a hit from 1976-79, and considering the economic turmoil that reared its head in 1980, didn't do too badly then. But the LeMans and Catalina/Bonneville never really recovered. Pontiac did have some luck with the Sunbird in the late 70's, and the Firebird/Trans Am were a hit, thanks to Smokey and the Bandit. So in a way, Pontiac started going niche even in the 1970's, as it really wasn't cutting it in the mainstream markets anymore. Even in compact cars, Pontiac never did all that well. The Ventura and Phoenix never sold in nearly the quantity of the Nova or cars like the Maverick, Granada, Fairmont, Dart, Valiant, Aspen, and Volare. About all you could say for it is that it beat the Olds Omega and Buick Skylark. Even on the FWD X-body that debuted for 1980, it wasn't very popular after the first year.
Actually, there was talk of GM ditching Pontiac as far back as the 1970s. I think this man helped turn around Pontiac's image in the late 1970s and gave it a new lease on life up until the present:
I think that was more like the early 1980's that GM talked of ditching Pontiac. The brand sunk quickly in the second oil crisis, while Olds and Buick showed a strange sort of resilience, selling as many big cars as the customers would snatch up. There was a couple years in there were Oldsmobile managed to outsell Ford, and one year, even Buick did it!
Pontiac sold about 800,000 cars in 1979, I think. That fell to around 650K in 1980, and 500K in 1981. For 1982 I think they fell below 400K, and bottomed out around 318K for 1983, slipping to 6th place behind a resurgent Mercury. Pontiac did turn around for 1984 though, thanks in part to the Fiero (laugh if you want, it sold over 100K its first year, and generated a lot of showroom traffic), and was back up to around 800K units for 1985. In 1986, the Grand Am became one of the 10 top selling cars in the US. The 1987 Bonneville and 1988 Grand Prix were successful, so it seemed like Pontiac was back on a roll for awhile.
I think the mid-priced market in general was starting to just dry up. After GM got Pontiac more or less fixed, then Buick started having sales problems in the later 1980's and early 1990's. And once they got Buick re-established, it was Oldsmobile's turn, and they never recovered.
Pontiac's problems are most likely rooted in the 1970's.
Pontiac, GM and everyone. Was around 72-73 when stricter emissions standards were applied and engines became lethargic across the board. Car designs also got stupid. Was around 73-74 when ridiculuous Mustang II was introduced.
Pontiac had one "last" shining moment for all to see when Burt Reynolds used a black Trans-Am (mid 70's) throughout his Bandit movie. Fleeting glimpses of Pontiac performance also shown in early 70's in Clint Eastwood movie (Thunderbird and Lightfoot) where Clint is with Jeff Bridges who steals a 71 Trans-Am from a car dealer's lot. In another trivia Pontiac moment, John Wayne's last (I think) movie had him as a detective driving a Trans-Am and then having it crushed between two semis.
" back in 1967...an Impala came standard with a 230 inline 6."
Minor correction: The 6 in the large Chevy's had 230 c.i. for '65, and 250 was standard for '66 and beyond. We had a '65 230 Biscayne in the family and a member of my wife's family had a '66 250, both with Powerglide. While that 8.7% increase in displacement hardly made the '66 powerful, it made a surprising difference in performance. The '66 launched better, climbed hills and cruised quieter and with notably less strain.
I think the Malibu and the Nova stayed with 230 c.i. for the base engine a bit longer.
I think the mid-priced market in general was starting to just dry up. After GM got Pontiac more or less fixed, then Buick started having sales problems in the later 1980's and early 1990's.
GM and Pontiac did well in 1984 with Pontiac 6000 STE model and Chevrolet had the Eurosport. These were FWD. Recall that car magazines had very favorable ratings on these. Test drove the STE out of curiousity and recall good vibes, but list was about $16K and that was a lot of money for a Pontiac back then. Heard that 84 6000's and Chevy equivalent may have had reliability problems.
I had some memorable Pontiacs, including the 1984 6000 STE, which was my favorite. I also had a 1964 Lemans (not GTO), and a 1979 Lemans wagon. And, a not so memorable 1984 T1000! I hope I am not the kiss of death for car models. I bought a 2000 Oldsmobile Silhouette in 1999, and just last year I bought a 2008 Mercury Sable.
Another great movie featuring unlikely Pontiac models in a chase was the 1973 movie "The Seven-Ups" starring Roy Scheider reprising his role from "The French Connection." There was an excellent chase scene involving Scheider in a Ventura chasing the bad guys in a Bonneville.
If the past is a guide, maybe the G3, G5, and G6, if not the G8, will be spiffed up and rebadged as Buicks. Just imagine a G3 with leather and real wood, the 260 hp direct injection, turbo Ecotec, and sport suspension. What would they call this minibeast? How about Grand Nationalette? Watch out, 1-Series! Just kidding. On second thought...
In French Connection, detective Popeye comandeered a Pontiac Lemans(?) and chased an elevated train. Didn't some of the bad guys in Connection, like the restaurant owner or his wife drive Pontiacs?
Actually I think that beast might've been a Grand Ville! There was a Bonneville in that movie too, though. I vaguely remember a kidnapped cop tied up in the trunk, getting shot in it.
That movie was on fairly recently. I was impressed that they were using brand-new cars in that chase scene, as both Pontiacs get pretty torn up. The Grand Ville got pretty mashed up from sideswiping other cars and bashing through a police barricade, and the Ventura got creamed when it went under the back of a tractor trailer.
Contrast that to "Smokey and the Bandit II", where Buford T. Justice was driving a 1980 Bonneville. However, just about every time the script called for some damage to it, it turned into a 1976 Bonneville hardtop sedan, with the little windows in the C-pillar covered over! Toward the end of the movie, Buford and his two brothers all crash. The 1980 LeManses that his brothers drove suddenly turn into, of all things, AMC Madators! :confuse:
Here's the original Sheriff Buford T. Justice car!
Lovely color combo, isn't it? Brown with a blue interior. :surprise: I think it ended up like that because they only used like 2-3 LeManses for that whole movie, so they had to keep repainting them for to represent police cars Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia (I don't think they went through Louisiana), plus there was a red civilian LeMans that Buford drove up on top of when his car was up on a jack at a gas station.
In some scenes, I think his interior is light brown. And there are scenes where you can see white in the door jambs.
Comments
I had a girlfriend that had a '67 Firebird with the 400 and automatic. Another quick, fun car.
My dad had a '84 Firebird with the 4 cylinder. That one was not so fun.
The only car they make now that I like is the G8. Still, I thought GM would have killed Buick first.
Anywho, the end of Pontiac makes me sad; my uncles in particular had many, many: a '70 GTO, '69 Firebird, '76 Grand Prix, '75 Grand LeMans. My grandparents had a '60 Catalina wagon (traded on a '69 Kingswood Estate the week I was born, I think) and a '63 Tempest, which my mom apparently loved as a teen. I've always liked Pontiac's styling, just a bit sportier/fancier than a Chevy without being ostentatious (save for the screaming chicken). Pontiacs are still my favorite '60s cars, in general.
Oh yeah, my aunt had one of those 4-cylinder Firebirds, too (an '82 or '83), I learned to drive on it. It was nice looking (silver with burgandy interior), handled nicely, but not so well made, and needless to say, with the automatic, dog slow.
I observed a deterioration in body integrity, paint finish from 65 to 71. 65 had best paint, 68 next best, both 71's had poor paint quality. But, both 71's had improved handling and brakes over the 68. Of course, all Firebirds handled substantially better than full-size 65 Grand Prix. Father took over 65 Grand Prix and had it till about 81-82.
The Trans Am was reasonably fast, 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and handled well as did the 71 Formula. The 65 Grand Prix had been intended as a luxury car with a big engine and it handled terribly, but probably better than Dodges, Fords, Chevies of similar wieght in that model year. It had HD suspension and aluminum brake drum wheel centers. Brakes were not that good though. The Grand Prix with 421 tri-power setup and 4-speed was fast in a straight line.
For a number of years, wife and I owned and drove all 3 Firebirds. She had a little difficulty with shifting Ttrans-Am with its bear-trap-like clutch. The Trans-Am was white with blue stripe, 71 was medium metallic blue, 68 was red. We were indeed patriotic - red, white and blue and American brand Pontiac. Have photos of all 3 together on driveway in shoe box somewhere.
Straightline
Pontiac realized their mistake, and that there was still some demand for big cars, so in mid-1983 they rushed and threw together the Parisienne. It only sold about 17,000 units that first year, but by 1986 managed around 86,000...not too bad for a brand that was trying to focus on performance and youthful cars, and as a result didn't see too much marketing. They look good in black, with rally wheels and out of the skirts.
GM did not have a clue about building a "true" performance/handling car such as 3 series. G8 came too late.
Today, have Acura TL 04 & 07, Honda Odyssey for utitilty duties.
Have had other "sporty" cars in past such as 67 Mustang GT high perf 289, 69 Barracuda 340S.
Now the G8 GT is the one I would want. Sadly it's just not in the cards right now. GM screwed Pontiac when they abandoned the over the top styling of the late 90's. Ok, they went a bit far for my tastes by then, but the blue collar crowd bought them by the thousands. Yeah, they were not as sporty to drive as they tried to look, but they did sell. The G6 and the like simply were way too clean and generic looking. I never will understand what GM was thinking by trying to reinvent the mark instead of simply letting it evolve in such a way as to keep those that were buying them happy. Afterall, love 'em or hat'em, before the G era cars came out, Pontiacs were recognizable. Personally I think that they should have kicked Buick to the curb. That would have made alot more sense.
She might look like a hot, sexy woman, but she used to be a fat hairy bricklayer from Paterson, NJ named Bluto.
"Killing Pontiac will generate huge headlines and angst over what ultimately will be a trivial issue in General Motors’ struggle to survive.
Like a family vacation house no one visits anymore, Pontiac had outlived its usefulness. Times are hard; money is tight. Phasing out Pontiac, as GM CEO Fritz Henderson announced today, 'is the responsible decision: Invest scarce resources where you live. Let the old place go.'
No matter how necessary, decisions like this are inevitably painful. Fans of Pontiacs will rage against GM, and understandably so.
For some time, though, Pontiac has existed more as faded photos in the family album than an active participant at the dinner table.
The departed GTO, Firebird and Catalina convertible are Pontiac’s past. The fact that the brand had no future became painfully clear last year, when the marvelous G8 sport sedan failed to make a ripple in the market, despite looks and performance that rivaled the BMW 5-series at a fraction of the price.
If the G8 couldn’t build excitement, sales and profit for Pontiac, nothing could.
The brand had no future. GM tacitly acknowledged that in December when it said Pontiac would become a niche brand — one or two sporty cars sold alongside Buick and GMC’s profitable full-line model range.
From that day forward, Pontiac became nothing more than a marketing expense: the cost of reminding customers the brand still existed and making minimal changes to models from other brands to justify a different badge.
There’s no vehicle in Pontiac’s current or future lineup that can’t be done better for one of GM’s core brands: Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet and GMC. The first proof of that hits the road shortly when the promising 2010 GMC Terrain compact crossover SUV replaces the lackluster Pontiac Torrent in showrooms.
The Torrent was essentially a rebadged Chevrolet Equinox, a hoax perpetrated on the buyers who believed Pontiac’s promise 'We build excitement.' It takes more than a new badge, grille and a few suspension tweaks to make a vehicle special, and the public greeted the Torrent with a yawn. The Equinox consistently outsold the Torrent by about 3 to 1.
The Terrain, by contrast, has a different body and more features than the 2010 Equinox. GMC vehicles sell at a higher price and in higher numbers than Pontiacs, largely because the brand has a stronger and clearer identity than the muddle Pontiac had become.
The Terrain promises to top anything the Torrent ever achieved. The same could easily apply to other models Pontiac might have gotten in its future as a niche brand.
Focusing on the core brands and ending the charade that kept Pontiac going is the only responsible course. Doing anything else amounts to repainting the vacation cottage while the roof over your family’s heads collapses."
Shame an old brand with a good history (a long time ago) has to die, but few mourn the passing of Olds, so this will be a distant memory in not too long.
2024 Ram 1500 Longhorn, 2019 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2019 Ford Mustang GT Premium, 2016 Kia Optima SX, 2000 Pontiac Trans Am WS6
The only rental car I have ever had that broke down was a Pontiac.
I have had enough rental Grand Ams and Grand Prixs in my lifetime to fill a football field. Never noticed any excitement.
A decade ago I had a roommate with an 80s Firebird that he cursed regularly. The amount of money he put into that thing to keep it going was really just a crime, given that it was a seriously crude car to drive - terrible build, terrible ergonomics (such as they were), no handling to speak of. But he was from the Midwest and devoted to that car - had dreamed of a Firebird since he was a little kid. Wonder what he drives today.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I can't imagine Mercury can survive unless it sees a real product revolution, and as it hasn't had much identity for maybe 30-40 years, that seems doubtful. Chrysler of course is doubtful to survive at all, and Buick might end up being an Asia-only marque.
The demise of mid priced brands might be a good relation to the eventual decline of the middle class, which like cars will become a deluxe low class.
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By James G. Cobb
"Pontiac G8 GXP.
General Motors will phase out the Pontiac brand in 2010, said Fritz Henderson, president and chief executive of G.M., in a press conference this morning. I had heard that G.M. was giving up on Pontiac last week, at virtually the same time G.M.’s car delivery guys were taking away the test car I’d been driving for a week: a 'liquid red' Pontiac G8 GXP. So in some small measure, the news, though anticipated, was personal. I felt as though I were losing my new best friend.
The G8 GXP is a terrific car. I’d rate it at or near the top of the list of 20-odd new vehicles that I’ve tested this year, and the less rascally G8 GT is high on the list as well. As Eddie Alterman wrote in his perceptive review of the G8s in The Times last December (before he moved on to become editor in chief of Car and Driver), these impressive new Pontiacs arrived at Detroit’s party as the floors were being swept and the last drunks were staggering out. 'It’s too much, too late,' he wrote.
All too true, and, for those who recall when Pontiac was the life of that party, so sad.
Brian Williams, the anchor of 'The NBC Nightly News,' remembers. His family’s first new car was a mint-green 1967 Pontiac Catalina. A couple of months ago, when G.M. began to hint that Pontiac would have a limited future (as a 'sub brand' with a limited range of models), I was invited to appear on the Nightly News to reminisce about what Pontiac once meant.
It’s easy to understand why anyone born after the mid-1960s may not shed any tears when Pontiac is read its last rites. They’ve known the G.M. division mostly for its generic midsize cars like the 6000 and the Grand Prix, largely indistinguishable from Buicks, Chevys and Oldsmobiles; for its Firebirds that became increasingly alien-looking through the years; for its unimpressive Sunfires and Grand Ams and unremarkable latter-day Bonnevilles; for its half-hearted attempts to sell mummified minivans (TransSports, Montanas, Azteks) wrapped up in plastic lower-body cladding.
It was a different scene in the division’s glory days, which ran roughly from the late 1950s till the mid-1970s, a period that neatly coincided with my own obsession for the automobile. I recall marveling at my Uncle Charlie’s ’57 Super Chief hardtop, whose Indian-head ornaments (one atop each front fender) glowed when the headlights were on. I spent hours pretend-driving the yellow ’55 Chieftain Catalina that I ranked highly among the many cars that passed through my older brother’s hands before he graduated from high school.
But it was in the 1960s that Pontiac really got serious about building excitement, with the classy Grand Prix and the sporty 2+2 added to a line that included flashy Bonnevilles, perky Tempests, the jaunty LeMans. Headlights were stacked, grilles were split and the cars’ track (the distance between opposing wheels) was widened. The modern muscle car was born when John DeLorean wedged a 389-cubic-inch V-8 into the 1964 Tempest, creating the GTO. The brand had buzz, barely a decade after its image was so boring that Pontiacs were derided as “cars for librarians.”
Back to the present, and a car that is surely one of the best sedans Detroit has ever offered: For those who don’t track the comings and goings of car models the way Jimmy the Greek kept tabs on the arms of NFL quarterbacks, the GXP is the high-performance version of the G8, a largish (though not unwieldy) sedan that feels thoroughly American, in the best sense of that characterization. The $40,000 GXP combines a Corvette V-8 engine with a remarkably lithe suspension, impressive brakes, superlative steering and a classy, comfortable cabin. After testing it on closed tracks, credible auto writers have compared it favorably with the BMW M5, which costs about twice as much.
If Pontiac had offered cars this good 10 years ago, it wouldn’t be flat-lining now in the critical care unit. Of course, if G.M. had made a serious effort to build overengineered cars like the G8 20 years ago, there would be no talk of bankruptcy or slicing the company’s “good” assets from its mistakes.
But the G8 damns G.M.’s management on another level, for this excellent yet very American-feeling sedan actually started out half a world away. It is heavily based on the Holden Commodore, a product of G.M.’s Australian subsidiary, and thus joins a long list of well-designed, carefully engineered, highly competitive automobiles created by G.M. subsidiaries around the world. Until recently such products were largely denied to the American consumers who have been telling the company for decades – with their closed checkbooks and their mass defections to foreign brands – that they wanted Detroit to give them world-class cars.
Now a few of those cars are here. They are Pontiacs with Australian accents. And they are about to become orphans."
That's exactly the problem with Pontiac...they're supposed to be a mid-priced brand, a step up from Chevy, but somewhere along the line they lost that.
Pontiac's problems are most likely rooted in the 1970's. All of a sudden, performance was a dirty word, but that's precisely what Pontiac had been building their reputation on since 1957. So they started shifting to personal luxury, that neoclassic look with pretentious grilles and bulging fenders and too many curves in all the wrong places that was supposed to evoke the 1930's...but it didn't. Pontiac's 1969 Grand Prix was the first car to go this route, and was pretty successful, as it still had some performance, but suddenly Pontiac began applying it to the whole lineup.
Pontiac also started trying to be all things to all people in the 1970's. When the Grand Ville came out, it was trying to go head-to-head with the Buick Electra and Olds 98. And with the Astre, Sunbird, and Ventura, it was going toe-to-toe with Chevy.
And all of a sudden, a Pontiac wasn't such a big step up from a Chevy. For instance, back in 1967, if you bought a Pontiac Catalina, it came standard with a 400 cubic inch V-8. And that was the cheapest big Pontiac. It was about the equivalent to an Impala, as the Biscayne and Bel Air were pretty much bare-bones rental/fleet cars by that time. Still, an Impala came standard with a 230 inline 6. The Pontiac had 290 hp standard, while the Chevy had about 145. To be fair though, the Pontiac required hi-test fuel, so there was a de-tuned 400 credit option, that put out something like 255-260 hp.
With Chevy, if you wanted a V-8, the next step up was a 283 that had around 195 hp. It would be replaced with a 200 hp 307 for 1968. The next step beyond that was a 327, which had 250 hp with the 2-bbl, or 300 with the 4-bbl. So basically, you had to go up three options from the base engine to get to about where the Pontiac was, standard.
By the 1970's though, a 350 V-8 was pretty much standard in the big Chevies. A 250-6cyl was standard, but the vast majority were V-8. By the time net hp kicked in, a '72 Impala had 165 hp, from a 350-2bbl. A 1972 Catalina had 170 hp, from a 400-2bbl. The gap was pretty much closed.
When downsizing became all the rage, the standard engine in a Chevy Impala/Caprice was a 250-6cyl. In a Catalina, it was a 231 V-6. So by this time, the Chevy was actually getting the better engine! More reliable and durable, about the same hp, but a little more torque. And smoother!
After the first fuel crisis, Pontiac never really recovered when it came to mainstream mid- and full-sized cars. The Grand Prix was a hit from 1976-79, and considering the economic turmoil that reared its head in 1980, didn't do too badly then. But the LeMans and Catalina/Bonneville never really recovered. Pontiac did have some luck with the Sunbird in the late 70's, and the Firebird/Trans Am were a hit, thanks to Smokey and the Bandit. So in a way, Pontiac started going niche even in the 1970's, as it really wasn't cutting it in the mainstream markets anymore. Even in compact cars, Pontiac never did all that well. The Ventura and Phoenix never sold in nearly the quantity of the Nova or cars like the Maverick, Granada, Fairmont, Dart, Valiant, Aspen, and Volare. About all you could say for it is that it beat the Olds Omega and Buick Skylark.
Pontiac sold about 800,000 cars in 1979, I think. That fell to around 650K in 1980, and 500K in 1981. For 1982 I think they fell below 400K, and bottomed out around 318K for 1983, slipping to 6th place behind a resurgent Mercury. Pontiac did turn around for 1984 though, thanks in part to the Fiero (laugh if you want, it sold over 100K its first year, and generated a lot of showroom traffic), and was back up to around 800K units for 1985. In 1986, the Grand Am became one of the 10 top selling cars in the US. The 1987 Bonneville and 1988 Grand Prix were successful, so it seemed like Pontiac was back on a roll for awhile.
I think the mid-priced market in general was starting to just dry up. After GM got Pontiac more or less fixed, then Buick started having sales problems in the later 1980's and early 1990's. And once they got Buick re-established, it was Oldsmobile's turn, and they never recovered.
Pontiac, GM and everyone. Was around 72-73 when stricter emissions standards were applied and engines became lethargic across the board. Car designs also got stupid. Was around 73-74 when ridiculuous Mustang II was introduced.
Pontiac had one "last" shining moment for all to see when Burt Reynolds used a black Trans-Am (mid 70's) throughout his Bandit movie. Fleeting glimpses of Pontiac performance also shown in early 70's in Clint Eastwood movie (Thunderbird and Lightfoot) where Clint is with Jeff Bridges who steals a 71 Trans-Am from a car dealer's lot. In another trivia Pontiac moment, John Wayne's last (I think) movie had him as a detective driving a Trans-Am and then having it crushed between two semis.
Minor correction: The 6 in the large Chevy's had 230 c.i. for '65, and 250 was standard for '66 and beyond. We had a '65 230 Biscayne in the family and a member of my wife's family had a '66 250, both with Powerglide. While that 8.7% increase in displacement hardly made the '66 powerful, it made a surprising difference in performance. The '66 launched better, climbed hills and cruised quieter and with notably less strain.
I think the Malibu and the Nova stayed with 230 c.i. for the base engine a bit longer.
GM and Pontiac did well in 1984 with Pontiac 6000 STE model and Chevrolet had the Eurosport. These were FWD. Recall that car magazines had very favorable ratings on these. Test drove the STE out of curiousity and recall good vibes, but list was about $16K and that was a lot of money for a Pontiac back then. Heard that 84 6000's and Chevy equivalent may have had reliability problems.
I hope I am not the kiss of death for car models. I bought a 2000 Oldsmobile Silhouette in 1999, and just last year I bought a 2008 Mercury Sable.
In French Connection, detective Popeye comandeered a Pontiac Lemans(?) and chased an elevated train. Didn't some of the bad guys in Connection, like the restaurant owner or his wife drive Pontiacs?
That movie was on fairly recently. I was impressed that they were using brand-new cars in that chase scene, as both Pontiacs get pretty torn up. The Grand Ville got pretty mashed up from sideswiping other cars and bashing through a police barricade, and the Ventura got creamed when it went under the back of a tractor trailer.
Contrast that to "Smokey and the Bandit II", where Buford T. Justice was driving a 1980 Bonneville. However, just about every time the script called for some damage to it, it turned into a 1976 Bonneville hardtop sedan, with the little windows in the C-pillar covered over! Toward the end of the movie, Buford and his two brothers all crash. The 1980 LeManses that his brothers drove suddenly turn into, of all things, AMC Madators! :confuse:
Lovely color combo, isn't it? Brown with a blue interior. :surprise: I think it ended up like that because they only used like 2-3 LeManses for that whole movie, so they had to keep repainting them for to represent police cars Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia (I don't think they went through Louisiana), plus there was a red civilian LeMans that Buford drove up on top of when his car was up on a jack at a gas station.
In some scenes, I think his interior is light brown. And there are scenes where you can see white in the door jambs.
'67 Lemans
'69 Grand Prix
All belonged to my brother. I was a kid at 15 years younger.
I remember enjoying Thunderbolt & Lightfoot when it was released.
Jay Leno Says Pontiac Azteks Will Be "Really Collectible" (Straightline)
That Leno! What a Comedian!!!!