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You don't even have to start at 50 something, the 40 somethings, 30 somethings and 20 something aren't buying GM either and for good reason.
GM doesn't seem to realize that a good reputation goes a long way when it comes to how well they'll be able to sell a car in the long run. GM seemed intent on destroying their reputation in the 70's 80's 90's and now they wonder why people don't want their cars. It's laughable
Why is the Lacrosse now going to have a more powerful engine than the most powerful in the Lucerne? Isn't this kind of backwards? Why can't they both have the same optional engine?
I am curious to see where Buick sales are in 2011. Gas may be $6/gallon by then, and maybe a gazillion-hp V8 will pinch the gas budgets of consumers a little more than is really optimal. Buick doesn't really occupy the spot that MB, BMW, perhaps Lexus, and all the boutique brands occupy, where gas costs are of no consequence. It's in a price-sensitive range. Might be nice to have a nice gas-saver powertrain available by then in addition - perhaps gen-II of the Saturn hybrid system?
I am also very curious to see how the Enclave does for sales. I think of this vehicle primarily as a people mover, so it is my contention that it will sell least well of the triplets. But the Buick version is a 5-seater, not 7, right? So I could be wrong there. I suppose its primary competition is the RX350 and ML350, perhaps the XC90 as well? Strong sellers all.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If Chrysler is sold, I wonder how it will effect the selling of Chery cars here in the States. Will this Chinese company have the same relationship with the New Chrysler company. Perhaps they may end up on GM sales lots instead. It is a World of change.
Loren
NO, but some parts will be built in one country and shipped to the other. However there will be a lot of parts that are sourced to one company but built in both contries.
Why is the Lacrosse now going to have a more powerful engine than the most powerful in the Lucerne? Isn't this kind of backwards? Why can't they both have the same optional engine?
Investment: 300 hp V8 was already in the W car platform/plant. 2xx hp V8 was already in the plarform/plant for Lucerne. Remember GM is trying to cut costs.
It's in a price-sensitive range. Might be nice to have a nice gas-saver powertrain available by then in addition - perhaps gen-II of the Saturn hybrid system?
Next LaCrosse is based on Eps 2 and I am sure there will be hybrids available by then. $6 gas? doubt it.
I am also very curious to see how the Enclave does for sales. I think of this vehicle primarily as a people mover, so it is my contention that it will sell least well of the triplets. But the Buick version is a 5-seater, not 7, right?
7 or 8 passenger depending on middle row. It is already sold out through the 2007 normal build period (as early 2008 MY) and will probably be sold out for all of 2007. After this period (in 2008 CY) it will outsell the Saturn but then level off. Most likely the plant will not be able to keep up with all 3 models for a few years and will be running OT.
No CR does not give good marks to domestics. But JD Powers does give some good marks to domestics and some will say a bit better in how they do statistical control.
JD Power sends questionairres to a scientifically controlled sample of vehicle owners and makes it's data and statistical methods available to anyone who whats to buy (All the OEM's buy it). CR sends out their questionaires to their magazine subscribers and does not let anyone see how they use the data.
JD Power only uses the data to report out the results and the quantitative results are available to whoever buys them but the highline (brand scores) are given to the press.
CR does not give quantitative data so you really do not know how they actually do relative to each other. They also report out their opinions on the vehicles they test.
How close is a 1/2 red dot to a 1/2 black dot? is it 3 problems delta? Is it .3 problems delta? The world will never know. With Power you know exactly what the delta is if you pay for it. (Again they publish the quantitative numbers for the divisions so you know how nuch better Buick is than Toyota)
The Impala will be all new sheet metal and interior. As will the Camaro which will be based on the same platform. Doubt if anyone will confuse the Impala with the Camaro.
The Enclave has already been priced and it's significantly cheaper than the RX350.
"It's laughable "
The idea that no one looks at GM models these days is indeed laughable.
Bentley: you won't spot too many Bentley ANYWHERE. Unless you live in Palm Beach of course.
Mercury: Mariners are quiet popular around the campuses.
Chrysler: Old Sebrings, especially the convertible are very popular with the students because 1. they were cheap and 2. they aren't bad looking at all.
Toyota: all over the place.
Honda: all over the place.
Nissan: all over the place.
Chevy: all over the place, especially the pick-ups.
BMW: all over the place.
Acura: probably the second most popular luxury brand after BMW.
Infiniti: If Acura is second then Infiniti is definitely the 3rd, especially with the G35.
The point is...at least Lexus has the IS to attract young"er" buyers, what does Buick have to accomplish that and please don't tell me the LaCrosse. Look, I don't have "problems" with Buick, it's just that I don't see the point for Buick to exist anymore (at least in NA market). Maybe China is a good place for Buick to start its second life...
Okay, that's one. I still have 9 fingers to go...
Look, lemko, I admire your enthusiasm about Buick and I respect that. But the truth is that Buick are not going to do better with the current lineup that they are offering (including the upcoming super). I work in a fairly large sized company (around 130K employee) and our site has 3K. Out of the several parking lots we have so far I have spotted one (1) Buick and it's one of those 90s land yacht type Buick. Oh, by the way, it's in Florida and we have a pretty aging work force.
JD Power however isn't better, at least the often quoted initial quality score which only details faults as a car rolls off the assembly line. While I do want a defect free car off the lot, I also want one that will remain defect free for years to come.
Money magazine did a article on awards given to new cars. Their conclusion was that many of them don't mirror what most of us actually value most in auto's. Here's a link: link title
Consumer reports has always mirrored my ownership experiences, and those of close friends and family, suprisingly closely. Most of the complaints that they come up with in testing ends up being the same stuff I put on my mental "It's a great car except for..." list that I compile on cars I own. The repairs I encounter also mirror CR's projections fairly closely.
I won't walk in and purchase a vehicle based solely on what CR says, but I will take their rankings/tests and reliablity projections into account. Most of the press both automotive (Motor Trend, C&D) and non-automotive (Money, Kiplingers) come to conclusions that are fairly close to CR's tests (although they don't address long term reliability).
I think most (notice I said most) of the people who dislike CR's rankings and ratings fall into one of two categories:
--People who don't share CR's ideals as far as what constitutes a good car. If you don't value fuel economy or handling, then you'll likely come up with very different rankings. None is better than the other, their just different.
--People who are either rabidly loyal to a brand CR doesn't rate well or have a real disdain for a brand that CR does like. (Ex: I think GM builts the best cars->CR doesn't agree->CR is in the pockets of Honda/Toyota, CR's methodology is flawed, CR hates America).
Odd, isn't it, that they never mentioned CR... Hmmmmmm.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Odd, isn't it, that they never mentioned CR... Hmmmmmm.
>People who are either rabidly loyal to a brand CR doesn't rate
wellgoodYour use of "rabidly" mitigates value of points you made. Some people notice CR is not consistent in their application of criteria. But I'm not going to go there. Search old posts by people for the points about that.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The point here is that CR does provide some useful information, but I am not sure one can use their results to say that one manufacturer is better than another. Probably a car with all red dots is different than another with all black dots, but one with a mix or hollow dots may be just a good as either of the others.
I think that the J. D. Power ranking of makes and manufacturers is real. I also think that their long term study probably will hold up for 6 years. How well any car does for ten years probably depends more on how the owner abuses it than anything.
Think that that is forbidden by CR. Doesn't CR say that none of their info can be used in any way by mfrs and other commercial entities?
I find that CR opinions of vehicles they road test are consistent with most other testers such as Edmunds, Car and Driver and other magazines. As example, if CR says a vehicle has bad handling and brakes, many other testers most usually say the same thing.
If some don't trust CR, they have alternatives such as doing the test drive for themselves and then asking new car salespersons and dealer sales managers about the quality and reliability of the vehicle they are interested in.
GM could kill Buick but it wouldnt help them at all. What has GM gained from killing Olds? If Buick dies there is no guarantee that it's customers wont go and buy Fords and Toyotas. People keep harping on this "kill Buick" strategy without explaining how that will enhance GM's profitability.
Well, my Dad has a 2003 Regal, that he bought when he was 57. Hey, that's young for a Buick buyer!
And actually, at the time it was, as the average age for a Century, LeSabre, or Park Ave buyer back then was around 70, while the Regal averaged a comparatively youthful 57. I think the Rendezvous average buyer age at the time was around 48.
But, my Dad also bought that Regal used, so that's probably not helping GM much, either.
You do realize that 60% you're bragging about is a grand total of 3527 vehicles right? Saturn's February sales were 9391 compared with 5864 last year. The phased-out ION was down 19%, Sky sales were a whopping 829, and the Aura was well under 4k units.
Compared to last year, Saturn's overall sales are down 3%. Under 40 or not, most buyers are going elsewhere.
Since Saturns are sold at MSRP, maybe GM makes more profit on each Saturn they sell, compared to Buick?
Also, aren't most Saturn dealers these days still stand-alone? That could cause a problem with dumping the brand. Most stand-alone Buick dealers went away years ago, at least in these parts. Usually they're grouped as Pontiac/GMC/Buick, at the very least. We have one dealer here that's Pontiac/GMC/Buick/Cadillac/Hummer/Saab!
I'm guessing it wouldn't really be that hard to phase out Buick if they really wanted to, but Saturn would be more difficult.
The IS is the only lexus young people care about.
Didn't I say that in the previous post? 1487, we really need to work on this "read-my-whole-post-before-you-reply" thingy. :P
Okay, forget about the college kids, let's be real here, how many 30-year-old have you seen lately whom are driving around in a shining Lucerne or LaCrosse? Like I said, my company consists of many well-paid engineers and none of them are driving Buick now-a-day. AND THIS IS IN FLORIDA!!
If you look at Olds sales data over 2001-2003 and compare to Buick 2002-2006, and plot on graph, the slopes are pretty close. The Enclave has got to be their salvation. Its had pretty good write-ups, so hopefully it will be.
Maybe for Enclave they should get away from golf type tv ads (if that is what they are going to do) and try to do something younger. Golf won't cut it. Got to get people into showrooms to do test drive. Get people excited, curious and interested when watching a tv commercial, but not goofy like driving a Ford Edge on the top of a skyscraper. Buick showrooms also have to match that of Lexus or Acura in sophistication if Buick wants to play in that league. The combo GM dealer in a town near me that sells Buick seems to hick-like for present or potential Lexus or Acura buyers to want to walk in.
Are you kidding me? the 3-series outsells IS 2-to-1 at most (if you only count sedans it's more like 1.5-to-1) and IS is CHEAPER than the 3-series.
Trust me here lemko, any young professionals would much rather opt for IS/3-series than those boy racer WRX/EVO.
Ooops.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The $3.50 per gallon gas prices could hit about the same time as the height of the housing crash, and possibly some stock market panic. So what then for the car sales? Summer could get interesting.
Loren
Betting on the Malibu to be reliable would be like betting on the old, worn out, and past his prime Mike Tyson today against whomever the current Champ is.
Loren
1.4 (best) problems vs. the average of 2.3.
Buick makes more money for GM than Saturn
GM does not really care if cars sell for MSRP or lower (as far as profit per vehicle), the dealer does. GM sells the vehicle to the dealer at a certain price and then the dealer tries to sell for as high as possible.
You're right, they arent moving in the right direction.
The G6's sales have been going up recently. I dont know why you keep suggesting that the Aura is killing the G6.
So G6 is selling in greater volumes? I doubt that. I do believe Pontiac sales are down, as well as, G6.
Loren
Saturn YTD sales are 35930 compared to 30852 in 2006. That 16% sounds so much better than 5078 vehicles, doesn't it?
G6 - FWD mid size
Aura - FWD mid size
Malibu - FWD mid size
LaCrosse - FWD mid size(?)
Total: 4 FWD mid sizer
Toyota Group:
Camry - FWD mid size
Avalon - FWD full size
ES350 - FWD luxury
RAV4 - compact SUV
Highlander - midsize SUV
Sequoia - full size SUV
Land Cruiser - full size SUV (I'll give you this especially when Lexus has the LX470 as well)
Nissan Group:
Altima - FWD mid size
Maxima - FWD full size
Xterra - midsize SUV (off-road)
Pathfinder - midsize SUV (city)
To answer your question. Yes, every manufacture has its own issue of product overlapping but none has it as severe as GM does.