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No I got your "point" 100%. It didnt make any sense. The Phaeton was competing in a price class that VW had NEVER been in before. The G8 will not be doing that. The GP costs $33k fully loaded and the Boneville GXP was about $36k fully loaded when it went out of production in 2005. The G8 will be somewhere in between those two cars in price with all the bells and whistles. If Pontiac were to introduced a car with a Phaeton-like price tag your point would be valid, but they arent doing that.
I sat in a few Auras at the auto shows, and didn't think they were too bad in the back seat. I wouldn't exactly call it limousine like, but I thought it was about what a midsized car should be.
You are wasting your time with the FWD vs RWD debate. There are SOME sporty FWD cars out there that cant beat SOME RWD cars in the slalom. The average RWD sedan will beat the average FWD sedan in the slalom and the best RWD vehicles will top the best FWD vehicles in the slalom. It's that simple. Cars like the Boxter, Z06, 911, Viper, M3, etc. will typically post faster slalom speeds than the quickest FWD sports cars.
There's nothing wrong with the Impala's controls in that shot, other than unfamiliarity. It's pretty much as straightforward as the one you linked, but with extra functionality for the second zone (so dual temperature selectors). To make up for the extra space needed, some things became pushbutton (fresh air vs. recirc, for example).
I do agree with kirstie about preferring digital controls though. I've found it odd ever since seeing the redesigned Impala interiors that they didn't get the dual zone automatic system. Our 04 Malibu LT had an automatic system at least (digital, of course). The new dual zone digital automatic setup should've at least been an option for these cars.
When did he ever say that? Can you give us a link or something? You seem to be the only one who remembers that quote.
This is still 2007, and right now, ESC isn't available on any Malibu or Impala. Toyota could make ESC standard on some car model lines in '08 -- we just don't know yet.
And right now, in 2007, ESC is standard across the board in EVERY SUV Toyota and Lexus make. It's also standard in the '06 Scion xB and new Tundra and optional in the Tacoma and Sienna.
Please -- no flames. Besides, I have to get back to work.
I guess I'd file that alongside of the tilt-telescoping steering column on the Malibu that nothing else in the Chevy lineup that has been refreshed or completely replaced got, including the Impala (again).
For 2008 stability will be offered on Aura XE and G6 GT.
On these Tundras, you could still turn off the airbag and put a child restraint in the front seat by using the regular seat belts to hold the restraint in place (the same as is true for older model pickups, like my regular cab '98 Frontier).
Keep in mind that the NHTSA and automakers warn against putting ANY child in the front seat with an active airbag, but the Tundra DID have a switch to turn off the airbag. You just didn't have the LATCH hooks available.
On the current VUE, ESC is not available. Regarding the sedans, of course I think it's best that ESC be standard now. But in 2007, Toyota cars have the advantage IMO because you can get ESC as a freestanding option on most trim lines, whereas GM forces you to get the top trim line even if all you want is ESC.
A year or so ago a woman at work went to buy a new Corolla. She wanted stability control and the dealer searched the whole state (New Jersey) without finding it.
I will grant you she could have waited out getting one from the factory (I would have done that) but she was in a rush fearing that her old Corolla with 200+K on it was going to die on her.
I really prefer having it as a standard item. Honda does that with a lot of models.
Since you are so anti-RWD you should love GM since they make very few RWD cars. I cant believe you are attacking GM about "abandoning" FWD when most critics say they need MORE RWD cars. I do not understand your whining because 90% of GM's car lineup is FWD. What is the problem? I am confused.
Attacking? Whining? No such tone in my posts, merely facts. GM itself is revisiting its plans for future development of RWD cars. This is smart given the current situation with gas prices, the onset of peak oil in the world and the increasing demand for oil from rapidly developing/industrializing countries such as China and India and their need for oil. Consumers will want more fuel efficient vehicles with good packaging and this generally means FWD configuration and reduced weight vehicles.
About “critics” wanting more RWD – are they sometimes wrong?
Use of word “attacking” reminds me in every election cycle of politician MR A who is running for office complaining that he is being “attacked” by his opponent MS B when in fact MS B had merely talked about MR A’s record.
For the record (mine), have owned numerous RWD cars (and SUVs) including many performance cars from GM as well as other brands (Ford, Chrysler).
1487 said:
The average RWD sedan will beat the average FWD sedan in the slalom and the best RWD vehicles will top the best FWD vehicles in the slalom. It's that simple.
It’s not that simple. It is foolhardy to assume that RWD has better handling than FWD. There is no hard and fast rule that RWD is better than FWD. As an example, according to Edmunds test data, the V6 Sedans of Honda, Hyundai and Ford handled better in the slalom than the RWD CTS and GTO. And, the Honda FWD MINIVAN had same slalom time as CTS. A MINIVAN.
A handy place to do quick comparos of car handling/performance is in “Road Test Summary” published monthly in R&T Magazine. It is interesting to see how FWD compares to RWD. It would be nice if Edmunds did something like this on their web site. It would be nice if Edmunds did something like this on their web site.
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The lack of concepts doesn't mean that products aren't coming. The SX4 sedan is here now and more models have been promised for each year through 2010.
Loren
Loren
On TV, I've seen the Pontiac ad's emphasizing them as the performance brand... good idea I think.
On the Net, I've seen GM ad's on Edmunds.
I get several magazines, but I don't recall any of their print ads jumping out at me.
Like much of America, I don't even subscribe to the newspaper anymore.
"It’s not that simple. It is foolhardy to assume that RWD has better handling than FWD. There is no hard and fast rule that RWD is better than FWD. As an example, according to Edmunds test data, the V6 Sedans of Honda, Hyundai and Ford handled better in the slalom than the RWD CTS and GTO. And, the Honda FWD MINIVAN had same slalom time as CTS. A MINIVAN. "
Enough with the CTS and GTO. The GTO never posted fast slalom times because it weighed 3700lbs and had a relatively compliant suspension. It wasnt a sports coupe and that is widely known. the fact that the GTO got beat by several FWD cars in the slalom doesn't prove that FWD and RWD are equal when it comes to handling. I mentioned before that the CTS has a standard and sports suspension and the car in their test may have been the standard suspension model. Most sports sedans are RWD or AWD, not FWD. There are quite a few sporty sedans and wagons with FWD on the market, but most premium, hi powered sports cars and sedans are NOT FWD. As I said once before, you need to look at the average RWD performance car vs the average FWD performance car. I didnt make this stuff up, its the laws of physics that determine these things. If you do not like RWD please remember gM will always have MANY FWD offerings to suit you. I see no reason why they should make FWD cars exclusively.
Do you want the camaro and vette to be FWD as well? I mean, since there is no advantage to RWD they might as well.
Loren
I also dont get why you are in a GM related forum but spend most of your time telling everyone how your Honda is superior to anything and everything made by GM. Granted, people can feel free to offer different viewpoints, but I dont see why you are here if your primary concern is defending the car you own. I like my car but I dont think its the best car on the road nor would I insult any other car that was available when I purchased it in the same price range. I didnt get the 2002 Altima when I purchased by car even though it was available and yet I wont go around telling Altima owners they made a mistake and my car was the "obvious" choice for anyone looking for a midsize car in that price range.
As for obvious choice in mid-sized car? Well-well, it is obvious that the last two efforts went nowhere, and GM now has better contenders. New Malibu will be far more popular for retail sales, compared to fleet sales and those sold only on price.
Loren
Loren
What specific misinformation were we spreading about your beloved Honda? I must have missed that. I am fully aware of what Honda offers and doesnt offer. Honda makes some good cars, some cars that are solid choices even. That does not mean Honda makes perfect cars or that Hondas are the only smart options in a particular segment. The Accord is nice but offers nothing you cant get somewhere else and in many cases the competition will be cheaper.
Loren
I have to completely agree with Rocky here. A high performance car can be driven safely at high performance speeds (with a skilled, experienced, and safe driver). It is safer to drive my A3 on the freeway interchanges at 90MPH than it is to drive a loaded 14' U-Haul at 60 MPH on the same curve. I drove my Accord V6 Coupe on that interchange at 80MPH (traffic allowing). I drive my A3 at 90 (traffic allowing). I'd drive the older '05 Civic at 75 MPH. Speed limits are all relative. There is no reason a 65 MPH speed limit should apply equally to a Buick boat and Audi sports suspension (again, traffic and driver skill allowing).
"What seems to be obvious is that improvement of product is not important at all. The current status quo is just fine. We'll see. "
Dont understand what you are referring to with that statement.
Loren
Can we try to re-focus this discussion onto a more inclusive track, please?
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The fact is that Honda's come loaded with all of the important features standard.
Equality, or superiority, on certain attributes can be determined by tests. Handling is one of these. Perhaps you are confusing "handling" with "feel".
Measured test results such as from slalom determine handling capabilities.
True enough, the GTO was a porker at 3700 pounds, but that is no excuse. Note that heavyweight Chrysler 300C which weighs more than the GTO, posts slalom times close to 3 Series and is good in drags. Weight is not necessarily the excuse. GM just did not get it right in suspension setup in GTO and CTS and handling suffered as a consequence.
GTO, besides not having any visual appeal, apparently had one major virtue - that of doing well at stoplight drags. A one-trick pony, or goat.
Incorrect againt. The GTO was actually lauded for its ride and handling with the admission that the car wasnt a focused sports coupe. It was more of a touring coupe with ample power in similar to the CLK. The car wasnt a Toyota in the twisties, but it wasnt a S2000 either. It was competent, but not a true sports car by any stretch. Suspension tuning, weight and wheels/tires play a huge part in how a car handles. Your entire argument rests on the fact that the GTO posted less than impressive handling numbers but the GTO is hardly the best RWD has to offer.
BTW, I would like to know where a regular 300C (not SRT) posted slalom times close to a 3 series. I have never seen that.
While we are talking about GM being on the offensive (and thus we should focus on their strategy, vision, plans), it's not a "rah, rah, GM" discussion, so there may also be less-than-flattering posts about GM by those who think that it will not work (the discussion title does end with a question mark, after all).
It's not the forum for "defending the honor" of any brand, foreign or domestic.
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That said, there is a ton of topic drifting.
For the record I do hope to see GM follow through on the RWD platform while readily admitting it is no cure all. It's more about choices and I think if properly executed it could be a winner for them.
I think their current practice of trying to get out of the fleet business and concentrate on retail is correct for them. The last couple of years have seen a lot more positive steps than the previous ten.
That is not my quote.
Never said "regular". R&T shows 300C (SRT8) at 66.5 for 700ft slalom vs 66.6 for BMW 3. Other misc GM cars in R&T: Cad STS-V at 65.8, Chev Cobalt SS at 66.9, GTO (2005 model) at 64.1, G6 GTP at 64.2.
I am not singling anybody out on this. I'd just like to see more proven statements and analysis. It would actually be more interesting.
For something I would love to see GM do is standardize their options list in the way that Honda does. Toyota does it just like GM - certain options are bundled with other options - like (and I'm not quoting directly from either manufacturer here)requiring leather seats to get heated seat.
I like nice, clean little options lists. Honda does this to the extreme - with an LX you get list A, with an EX you get list B and everything else is dealer installed.
Of course if you do the buy a year old car this problem is solved - it has whatever it has lots cheaper...
That does explain how a 300 got slalom speeds comparable to a 330.
GM usually lets you get most options separately if you so chose but I think certain things like stability need to be standard on more GM models. It seems like that is happening for 2008. GM gives you much more flexibility than Toyota when it comes to options though.
The fact is ABS and trac control are standard on most cars in this price range. The G6 and Aura (and many others) have trac control, 4 wheel discs and ABS standard.
I know I hate it when they tie things like an upgraded stereo to a navigation system or some such thing. It's not as bad if the items are related, like a light package that includes all sorts of lighting when all you actually needed was a map light.
I'd love to order a car exactly as I like it from the factory but in general don't have the patience.
I see some of the newer offering, such as the Aura come with a good base package for the XR model. The local Saturn dealer doesn't stock a single base model XR however. What happens is rapid price escalation. The good price of $24K less $1,500 special discounts, soon became not so good as they added several thousand in extras I don't want, or need. The XR as is in base is pretty good. Actually, it would make a good deal more splash for Aura, and Saturn image building, IMHO, to only make the Aura XR and lower the price as they discounted in California of $22,500 as a starter Aura. If they would only stock a couple - three in base and then have a couple other upgrades higher for those in need of navigation and other stuff, that would be great. The dealership added glass etching and pin stripes, but did quickly back off considering the side sticker in the negotiation process. The poor lambs which do not play hard ball come buying negotiations time get eaten by the wolfs. Overall Saturn dealerships seem OK, I would like to see more base models and the end of pin strips. This is 2007 ya know
Loren :shades:
When I bought my 00 Accord I wanted four cylinders a stick shift (at the time you couldn't get a stick with a 6), cloth and the moonroof. This meant I had to get an EX. This eliminated red as a color since they did not make EXs in red that year. What a nutty combination.
The only thing I don't like with it is that I ended up in a dark green because that was what was locally available and it's a bear to keep looking nice.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0419/p13s02-wmgn.html
On trunk lid air lifts: maybe the trunk jamb is locally a little wider. That makes the car have better sound insulation due to more overlap. F/R weight distribution is also better. Then there's the things that don't get crushed.