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Interesting observations, thanks for the food for thought.
Among them, GM and Ford have very few good nameplates in North America. However, the corporate brands may be tarnished but are not without opportunties for redemption.
If GM and Ford build attractive cars that lead in their class segments and achieve the reliability of their direct Japanese rivals, I am confident that they could win back retail market share. They need to win back trust, but if Hyundai can make progress toward doing that, certainly these two could.
But the excessive degree of badge engineering, particularly for GM, has gotten to the point where few of the individual nameplates have value. Sloan's vision of a multi-tiered GM line that provide an upward, aspirational progression for its customer base is almost dead, and killing Olds was not enough.
If I was CEO of either, I'd slash the number of nameplates, eliminate the degree of overlap between brands, and possibly phase out some brands almost entirely. For example, there's no need to waste cash and marketing effort on building duplicate Fusions, Milans and Zephyrs, when the same marketing effort and cost efficiencies could be devoted entirely into one car with a stronger identity. Mercury's are often just Fords with old-man styling cues, while Pontiacs are Chevy's made for middle-aged wannabe boy racers. That's a waste of money and a good way to dilute and erode the image of all of these brands, not a helpful strategy at all.
with a Pontiac Vibe and had some seat time in a MC, both '06 rentals. My thoughts on styling and overall for the vehicles:
Vibe Better than I expected in terms of front seat room Plastic seemed a little softer, better grade than typical GM, though too much use of it - sea of gray, typical 115V outlet, in dash, nice touch Cup-holder heaven, too many for my tastes Chrome trim pieces look, feel cheap. Easily nicked Steering wheel to shifter position, not bad (didn't have to change position when moving hand from wheel to shifter) Very, very anemic engine - can get down right scary when trying to merge/pass with more than one person in vehicle Some versatility, but not much Engine buzzy, not really smooth Was able to pile five people in there, including a +6ft. person, but I wasn't and wouldn't sit in the back Cubby holds in back (owner's manual was in one of them :confuse: ), but covers were very flimsy - just screamed take me off more than twice and I'm going to break Seat controls awkward. Switchgear ok, nice action Overall, not a bad little Toyota/GM runabout, but not sure how it would hold up (vehicle spent 50%/50% in Texas and Mexico). Anything other than an overnight bag, forget it. Make sure most of your driving is on the flat, so much as a slight grade will cause this thing to get tired quick.
MC Suffered from expansive plastic - plastic everywhere Doors reminded me of the last 2-gen F-bodies, long, heavy, plasticky Decent merging, but that's about it - push it and it tires FAST Seats not that supportive Decent trunk Switchgear ok Styling, hmmmm well, not my cup of tea
Overall, a good battle tank for short-term, but if expecting a sporting, responsive flavor, look elsewhere.
Would I own either of these, nope; there are better offerings out there that would fit my wants/needs for the same or less money.
Rock,
I did notice there where a LOT of G6s in Texas. You guys running a special we don't know about?
Oh a Big Body S500 ????? I heard they are very expensive for maintence. If I was going to buy a used foreign car it would be a BMW M3 sedan like a 97-99. They are harder than heck to find one that is in mint condition. **** I was actually thinking about a 96-98 S500/S420LWB - the older square tanks. Before they stopped hand-assembling them. These can be had for well under 20K, drive like no Caddy ever will, offer tons of power and refinement, and well, yeah - a bit pricey to fix, but 20K in your savings account for the price difference - buys a lot of maintainence.
Oh - and they last for 30-40 years, so should. The new plastic Mercedes? Not going to happen.
Older BMWs like a 96-97 M5 are also superb choices. Worth the search, and much better than the M3. With so many choices for fine luxury cars in the used market, I'm amazed that anyone even buys a new one. 20K - I can find V12 Mercedes and BMWs for that price.
That aside, GM's pricing is 15-20% too high. They need to drop all vehicles by 20%, drop all incentives and rebates, and financing. This would help them in more ways than they can imagine, most of all, with resale value.
Truthfulyl GMs competetion now is not toyota its hyundai
What is this statement based on? Toyota And Chevy sales are virturally neck and neck in the US, And GM and Toyota Corp sales are 1 and 2 globally (which is why a merger between the two wouldn't be allowed).
Hyundai sales are climbing, becoming a threat perhaps to Honda and Nissan, but Chevrolet? Chevrolet sold 172,000 vehicles in the US last month, Hyundai sold 455,000 all of last year.
the cobalt and impala are original they pretty plain and the cobalt's back looks exactly like the G6's back There is no originality, all their cars look the same
Um...when exactly has Toyota ever been a styling leader? The Whirlpool inspired xB perhaps?
Per the attached the new Chevy SUV sales are up 50% in January. Way too early to know what will really happen but at least the data is in the right direction.
When the lease on his old Chevy Tahoe expired, Michael Wujczyk toyed with going in another direction. Maybe something smaller. Maybe a different brand. But when he saw the 2007 Tahoe, he stopped looking.
"They just made some great changes to the truck," said the 52-year-old door distributor from Farmington Hills, who leased one of the new SUVs last month.
Well, you can get cheaper (Kia/Hyundai) or (in many cases) better (Toyota/Honda), but I'll submit you can't get both. To those who believe that the Koreans are equal to the domestics in quality - we'll have to agree to disagree.
But to address other points: Does anyone really lust after a Camry either? I'll submit that they do not. Does anyone get excited about a Pilot? Some cars are there to fufill a need while we lust after the Corvettes and Ferraris of the world. Frankly, I can't think of a single Toyota that I would lust after (Honda has the S2000).
From a pure retail customer standpoint, the more makes/models out there the better because it means more competition. Obviously the domestics aren't exciting you and the Asians are. Fair enough for you. Others might ask whether a "Sephia" has any value.
From an American economy standpoint, the domestics have a big impact, but I'm not going to try and argue with anyone who thinks that GM "going away" wouldn't affect them.
Only thing smarter for GM would be to close down Pontiac and Buick while they're at it. GM's corporate structure proves design isn't the only retro feature at the General...
Nope. GM spent gobs of money to close down Oldsmobile and has nothing to show for it. If it were mine to run, I'd revive Oldsmobile with TWO cars: rebadged Holden Barina (88) and rebadged Holden Statesman (98), 295hp 3.6L direct-injection HF V6 as the base motor and 355hp 4.6L direct-injection Northstar as the V8 option.
a little early to tell. Give it five years from the last sale, or even ten, THEN take a look.
I am quite sure this will prove to have been a prudent move in the long run. And as john said, they probably need to cut one more division loose, and my vote is DEFINITELY Buick.
Remember, they are STILL at overcapacity, and will need to cut production another 25% in the years to come. When that's done, why would they want to still be supporting so many divisions?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Does anyone really lust after a Camry either? I'll submit that they do not"
This is an interesting point, and I think gets at the heart of the matter, namely that since the 60s, when people lusted over cars, bought based on who won at the track, and waited breathlessly each fall for the curtains to fall at the local dealer to see what was new and improved, things have changed a great deal.
What changed? Globalization happened, car choices multiplied tenfold, and in real dollars cars became a lot cheaper to buy new, meaning people bought a lot more often, and the bloom was off the rose. Kids may still lust after Ferraris and Porsches, but no-one lusts after lesser cars these days, and even if they do, it doesn't translate into sales for that company any more (except for the drooling enthusiasts here at Edmunds of course.....and we know we are in a tiny minority, don't we?! :-))
Now, in terms of GM and Ford, I agree that there is a great deal of redundancy that still needs to be eliminated. I read that at the time Kerkorian increased his stake in GM last year, he could have bought the whole company for $13.5 billion (yes, he has that much money!), as could many other car companies. But what would be the point? You don't takeover the number one if you can see that it is in a virtually unstoppable decline that will soon take it out of your way anyway.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Probably a good move in that it is one less mouth to feed. Hopefully the hung on to the good people within the Olds organization and can use them to revive other brands.
Strangely, I though that at the time they annnounced the death of the brand, Olds had some attractive cars like the Alero and Aurora.
Closing them down is probably not an option, but combining might be a good idea.
The Lucerne seems to be selling well and is getting some respectable press. The LaCrosse and G6 are dull as dishwater, although the G6 coupe and convert are decent lookers until you see the interior.
Who knows what the General was thinking with the Torrent, Ranier and Tourazza.
Leave the SUV's to Chevy and GMC, maybe sell a mini van. Keep the Lucerne and GTO. Kill the Lacrosse and G6 and come up with a midsize sedan that can be optioned to the sporty side or lux side, raid the corporate parts bins from Holden, Opel and Caddy to do so.
Now what brand name do you keep? Or do we call them Pontuicks or Buiacs?
Sorry for not being clear 62, retail. I noticed that the last time I was down there (Labor Day week). There was a drought of them in my neck of the woods (Chi-town) during that time, which made me question people that were saying they were all over the place. But there was a nice supply of them driving around down there, and this last trip, even more. What was cool was seeing all of the old VW Bettles in Mexico.
Now they are sprouting up here in a few more numbers, but only have seen 2 coupes, one on the street another on the lot. But again, the coupe just reminds me of a Solara.
There are quite a few Cobalts around here; and seems our parking lot is getting full of the '06 Impalas, rentals though. Hopefully I'll be able to get behind the wheel of one soon and give an assessment. Exterior styling-wise, it seems derivative, an "I've seen that before" feel, kind of Honda-ish to me, but that may be what its market wants. But I think a negative repercussion could be "If I wanted something that looks like a Honda, Toyota, VW, whatever, I'd buy a Honda, Toyota, whatever."
The question has been asked "Does anyone lust after a Camry either?"
In a way, the answer is "yes". How many Camrys are sold each year? Those weren't fleet sales, they were done retail, one car at a time, by people who had many other choices, and CHOSE to endure what I've found to be the most obnoxious dealers on the planet (....but that's a topic for another Forum thread)...if that's not at least a form of "lust", I don't know what is!
Remember, we're not looking at this as a "lust" thing, but from a dollar-centric Point of View.
Forgetting that ANY of the manufacturers could transform themselves by designing a full line of hot products, what I'm thinking, right now, is: What's the compelling story for either of these companies? I'm not looking this as a consumer, but from a business perspective. Imagine you were looking to buy GM (the whole company): Why would/wouldn't you? GMAC is profitable, but, in the auto manfacturing area, what is there? Quick: name TWO current Buick models? Is there ANY reason to buy a Pontiac G6 over its competition? Honda came out with their new Civic model last fall. Check out the Edmunds chat room for the Si! People are going NUTS for these things! The Honda Civic sedan is EPA rated at 30/40 MPG - for a car that's actually rather large. That's remarkable, IMHO. The "Civic" model is an institution, and has significant worth. The same with the Honda Accord, and the Toyota Camry. Meanwhile, GM throws money down a veritible rathole by killing a model's crediblilty (anyone recall the last Nova or Malibu?), and then creating replacement models which are under-performers by ANY measure, throwing millions of advertising dollars to support the "brand", and then running them into the ground again.
For did it with the Taurus; what a shame.
So, again, I ask: What parts of these companies would you pay $$$ for, if you could break them up? Think out of the box! Perhaps Hyunda/Kia would be interested in buying the Chevrolet and Pontiac brands? Those names probably still have some worth...or not?
Perhaps Toyota would be interested in buying the Corvette "brand", and using THAT name for a high-performance Lexus?
Nice thread going so far! Thanks for making it interesting!
G6 sold 15,000 units in January. Last January they sold 4000 G6's and 4500 Grand Ams so it is selling very well. Compare to 22,000 Accords, 22,000 Impalas, 18,500 Malibus and 4400 Montes and 27,000 Camrys.
GM made a smart move, but they sure wasted a ton of cash doing it. And I see no other way to bring Olds back. Buick has the luxury end, Chevy has the low end, Saturn is the import fighter, Pontiac is the performance brand.
Now, about Pontiac and Buick, I would keep the 2 separate brands, but I would pitch the Pontiac brand as ultra performance and the Buick as refinement.
I would dump the G6, SV6, and Torrent; redesign the Grand Prix, bring back the Grand Am nameplate to go on a new RWD sedan, and perhaps build a full size performance sedan. (Bonneville)
For Buick, the LaCrosse, Terraza and Ranier have to go. I would keep Lucerne, redesign Rendezvous, bring back a compact premium car (Buick Excelle type) and make the interiors much better.
they just increased their GM holdings to 5.1% to become the #6 holder.
A 5.1 percent stake would make New York-based Morgan Stanley the sixth-largest GM shareholder. Kerkorian, through his Tracinda Corp. holding company, is GM's fourth-largest shareholder. GM investors such as Brandes Investment Partners LP, Southeastern Asset Management Inc. and Goldman Sachs Group Inc. also increased holdings, according to filings this week.
A six-speed transmission gives vehicles better fuel economy and performance. The company has indicated it will make as many as 1 million such transmissions a year by 2007 and as many as 3 million a year by 2010.
Right now GM sells just under 2 million vehicles per year in the US. So for 2007 and 2008 almost all GM vehicles will have the 6 speed?
Just an example of how GM doesn't bring its product fast enough that when they are out, they are just average at best: GM announces that a Buick Enclave will have a 270hp and will arrive in a year from now. Only a month later and without any introductions, Lexus announces that its 2007 Lexus RX350 now offers 270hp and improved fuel ecenomy (19/24 mpg for AWD) and is ALREADY ON SALE. Lexus will enjoy a whole year of power advantage until the Buick arrivees. And when it does, an all-new Lexus RX will be only 2 years away.
The horsepower rating means little to most drivers. It's the torque curve and rating of the motor that makes the difference in their driving. But I realize the public likes to hear a high horsepower rating because that makes theirs bigger and better.
Impala: much nicer interior than the previous generation. The exterior design isn't as distinctive as the old design - kind of like an update of the Lumina.
Cobalt: Love the coupe! I wish they used those taillights on the sedan. I don't like the new HVAC controls - they seem cheap compared to the ones used on last year's car.
Malibu: Deleting the heavy chrome front and rear bars dramatically improves the car's appearance. I still feel the headlights are too high. Bothered by feel of controls.
Aveo: Current car not on display. Next year's update was shown and it looks really sharp.
Monte Carlo: Doesn't look as bad in person as it does in pictures.
Corvette: Nice! Consistently the nicest car Chevrolet builds.
Saturn:
Aura: Really nice! This car should be out in the market NOW!!!
Sky: Beautiful mini-Vette. I like it better than the Solstice.
Ion: Not as bad as everbody says, though the centralized instrument panel draws barbs. Well, what about the Yaris and Scion? I noticed the Nissan Quest has a similar instrument panel.
Vue: Some don't like the new grille. I do.
Relay: The only one of GM's bottlenosed minivans that looks decent.
Pontiac:
G6: Not bad. Nicer than the Grand Am it replaces. The coupe looks promising. Cool hardtop convertible on the way.
Grand Prix: Still like this car. They had an example there in the nice blue-green metallic I've seen in a long time. I prefer the GXP with its Northstar V-8. I would rather have a Bonneville.
Solstice: Cute little sports roadster. It definately one-ups the Miata.
Torrent: I like it better than the Equinox.
GTO: Really nice interior with performance to match. Wish Pontiac would've made the styling more distinctive ala the retro Mustang.
Buick:
LaCrosse: I think this car is drop-dead gorgeous and better-looking than the Lexus GS which it seems to imitate. My girlfriend bought a LaCrosse last March and this car is extremely well-made and as reliable as tomorrow's sunrise.
Lucerne: Even the base Lucerne looks great by my standards and the price is very reasonable. However, I'd go all the way and get the Lucerne CXS with the 18" wheels and Northstar V-8! Great job, Buick! This car is near the top of my A-list when I go car shopping!
Cadillac:
CTS: I had one as a loaner car for a weekend and it's really a nice car. I was seriously considering one as a replacement for my 2002 Seville STS when gasoline prices were getting out of hand last summer. I didn't feel like I was sacrificing anything despite the car's smaller size and 2.8 V-6. The car had just about all the features to which I've becomed accustomed in my Seville.
STS: Really loved the STS-V I saw with the red suede accents. Would love to take one out on a track.
DTS: Far nicer interior than last year's car and the facelift makes the car look more substantial. The car actually has a METAL grille! Hallelujah! This car has an excellent shot at being my next car closely followed by the Buick Lucerne.
XLR: If I wanted an expensive toy, I'd take it over any exotic any day!
So why doesn't the US industryt just bite the bullet and convert to metric tolerancing and dimensioning? many's the time I've cursed GM for mixing metric and english head bolts in the same vehicle-it is a pain in the [non-permissible content removed]. of course, the same is true for the US-we've had a metrification committeee in Congress (sitting since 1905)-why the hell are we still using the ridiculous english system?
The reason that we have both english and metric bolts on cars is simple. Toolmakers are paying auto makers a kickback to do this, so they sell more tools.
Dealerships and independent repair shops are also encouraging it because they know that I'll look up under my Intrepid, eye up that drain plug, thinking it's a 1/2" bolt. So I'll put a 1/2" socket on it, which almost fits, only to find out, after I've boogered up the bolt, that it's a 13mm. So now it's messed up just enough that a 13mm socket won't work on it anymore, so I have to keep using the 1/2" until it finally tears the bolt to hell to where it won't come out anymore. So I have to pay the repair shop to drill the sucker out! And buy a new drain plug! And, of course by this time, with all the forcing and yanking and pulling around and such, the threads on the aluminum oil pan are messed up just enough so that, even though now I've got a new drain plug AND keep a 13mm socket with the car at all times, eventually it starts leaking and needs to be fixed. I think a new oil pan's something like $500, installed. Or, to fix it with some heli-coil or whatever it's called, around $100.
Impala: Rather large Accord. Not bad looking. Best bought used.
Cobalt: Buy the real deal = Civic
Malibu: Buy the 1968. Current one is,well ummm, well let's no go there.
Aveo: OK, you need a little car, and you don't want an Hyundai I guess. Base Civic, or Focus makes more sense.
Monte Carlo: Awkward styling, but it is at least a coupe. Needs RWD and a new body though to be a best choice.
Corvette: Always looking good. I prefer the C5, but the new one looks great too. Some may prefer the lights showing, and need 50 more HP. Still prefer the previous model.
Saturn:
Aura: Really nice! This car should be out in the market NOW!!! " dittos " And don't overprice it.
Sky: Needs a coupe version. Looks OK, but I prefer the Solstice.
Ion: Strange look, as if car was designed by committee.
Vue: Another SUV - whoopie! Not as good looking as the Mazda Tribute and it has that electric assist steering.
Relay: A mini van = yawn time.
Pontiac:
G6: Not bad, if you get the one without electric assist steering and buy it used so you don't get hammered on resale value.
Grand Prix: Slightly awkward styling. Will be replaced no doubt.
Solstice: Cute little sports roadster. It definitely one-ups the Miata for style, if NOT performance.
Torrent: Another SUV, oh my.
GTO: Price it around $25K to $27K and put the real name back on the car and sell it as an import for Australia. Maybe Saturn can be the import dealership for Holden and Opel. It is not a GTO.
Buick:
LaCrosse: Not bad looking. Another car by Buick.
Lucerne: Another Buick, which should never have had a base engine in her, and would make a good Cadillac entry level car when Buick folds.
Cadillac:
CTS: Needs to match Chrysler 300 HP and features, such as telescopic steering column. Cool looking car!
STS: Less dynamic looking CTS which costs more money.
DTS: Looks pretty good, with the new skin. Makes a great used car in one to three years. Actually, some older people have perfect decade old cars with low miles. New one loses some 17K or more right off the bat.
XLR: Why not buy a Corvette for less money and have more car? Or get an SLK Mercedes for less money and have a really super looking car.
So why doesn't the US industryt just bite the bullet and convert to metric tolerancing and dimensioning? many's the time I've cursed GM for mixing metric and english head bolts in the same vehicle-it is a pain in the [non-permissible content removed]. of course, the same is true for the US-we've had a metrification committeee in Congress (sitting since 1905)-why the hell are we still using the ridiculous english system?
What are you talking about? Everything at GM is metric now and has been for years. All drawings are in metric. All tolerances at the plant and in drawings are metric. GM was the first to change over around 1981 or so? I remeber trying to get the designers to think in metric back then instead of converting from english to metric on the drawings. those guys are all gone now and everything is done on the computer. So what are you talking about?
Now perhaps some tool shops still convert to english but they are not GM and I would bet they are rare now but cannot know for sure.
...has a really nice white 1979 Coupe DeVille. All the metric bolt heads came from the factory painted light blue for easy identification. I remember there was a strong push for the country to go metric at the time. Saturday mornings even had the Schoolhouse Rock shorts showing the metric system: meters, liters, grams, celsius.
Mustang: Good God, this car is beautiful! Love the GT and Shelby versions. This is retro done right!
Ford GT: the most impressive car Ford makes, but only two guys named Bills could afford one - Bill Ford and Bill Gates.
Fusion: I like it better than the Mercury Milan. It looks better in Ford livery.
Five Hundred: Looks like a Passat, except that it's reasonably priced and I could count on it to get me to work.
Crown Victoria: Same old Crown Vic. It's getting a bit stale. I love the fact that it's full frame, V-8-powered, and RWD, but the interior needs a serious refreshing. It's like it's still 1992.
Mercury:
Montego: Like the Infiniti-like clock in the center stack. The grille would make for a nice Buick. What's with that "gray wood" used in the interior? That is like so 2003!
Milan: Not bad, but it's like the Fusion's less attractive older sister. Weird taillights.
Grand Marquis: See Crown Victoria. Prices are crazy. The sticker showed $33K for the Grand Marquis LS Ultimate. I would buy this car at $28K, no more.
Lincoln:
Town Car: Lincoln has a few things over the Cadillac DTS, namely size, full-frame, and RWD but that's it. In all other respects it's so far behind Cadillac and all the foreign competition it isn't funny. The Town Car didn't seem much more impressive than the Grand Marquis. The Chrysler 300 has it all over the Town Car. If DCX goes ahead with the Imperial, the Town Car is dead.
LS: I remember when the LS debuted back in the day. I was worried for Cadillac as this car absolutely destroyed the mediocre Catera. Lincoln let this car get old and wither on the vine. Shame.
Zephyr: Great name, OK car. Needs a horsepower boost to be truly competitive. Fans of old-school Lincolns will appreciate the interior design. The interior looks much nicer in beige with the lighter wood.
Dodge:
Caliber: Kewl mini-Magnum. The dashboard drink cooler is a nice touch! Way nicer than the Peon...er ...Neon!
Charger: This car is a really awesome sedan! Make mine a red SRT-8! Would still be happy with it as a lowly 3.5 V-6. They've got to make a coupe version sometime in the future. Maybe that's the role of the Challenger? Great job, Dodge!
Magnum: Wow, somebody still makes a wagon and what a wagon it is!
Chrysler:
300/300-C/SRT-8: No matter how you spell it, it still says "awesome." They had a really nice red Hemi with circular red, white and blue "300-C" badges on the seat back for a nice touch.
Crossfire: nice toy based on an old Mercedes.
Sebring convertible: the youthful choice of happy, fortunate teenage girls everywhere.
Sebring sedan: the boring choice of older unfortunate working slobs, rental fleets, and stagnated middle-managers everywhere. This car seems a misfit in Chrysler's current exciting lineup. Even the minivan seems to exude more passion.
PT Cruiser: I believe this vehicle should've been a Plymouth all along. I like the exterior look of the Chevrolet HHR but the interior of the PT Cruiser better.
Toyota:
Yaris: Slightly nicer than the Echo it replaces, but not as nice as the Honda Fit. Why bother? I thought Scion took care of this market?
Corolla: Nice dependable compact. No changes this year, but way nicer than Corollas of the past which were the select choice of middle-aged secretaries. VW liked it enough to copy it for the Jetta.
Camry, (current): Eh, it's a Camry. Nothing to crow about.
Camry 2007: Aaaaghhh!!! What unlicensed plastic surgeon got his hands on the Avalon? The nose of this car is grotesque! However, the interior was quite nice with its wood accents.
Avalon: Really nice interior that steps on the toes of the Lexus ES330. The cover over the radio is a nice touch that reminds me of what Cadillac used to do in the mid 1960s. Liked the fact the car still has a cassette player in addition to the CD. A lot of my older music is still on cassette.
Prius: Hybrid a great idea, but the car is too expensive and too dorky looking. For a decent hybrid, check out the Civic Hybrid.
Honda:
Fit: Nice little car to compete against Yaris, Scion, and others. Seemed to have good fit and finish compared to the others.
Civic: Exterior looks like a rejected Saturn idea, but I dig the cool Jetsons instrument panel! Was really impressed by the hybrid, the only import I went back to look at twice!
Accord: Not many changes other than revised taillights.
Insight: little bullet car that appeals to the techie in me far more than the dorky Prius. Love the skirted wheels.
Nissan:
Sentra: I understand Nissan's replacing this model. They had a small car on display, but the name escapes me right now.
Altima: Nice exterior styling. Like the 1955 Dodge inspired taillights. Interior quality, however, is awful. What is Nissan's fetish for this silver painted plastic? It seems this is spreading to other automakers as well. Somehow, the Altima comes across better than the Maxima.
Maxima: Distinctive exterior styling, but the interior is a huge letdown. I love Nissan's bold designs.
Quest: Strange barrel shaped stack in the center of the instrument panel. I had to go back twice to see this oddity. The top of the "barrel" held the radio and HVAC controls as well as the shifter. The instruments were centrally mounted.
350Z : Once again, a cool design spoiled by a mediocre interior. It was neat how the instruments tilted with the steering wheel.
Subaru:
Tribeca: The front end reminds me of the helmet of the Cylon Centurions from the old "Battlestar Gallactica" TV show. It has a swoopy dashbord with Space Age styling. Overall quality seemed pretty good.
WRX: Sports a toned-down Tribeca-inspired grille. The car sure looks like fun from last year's commercials. Get your own rally car!
Acura:
RL: Really nice car both inside and out, but is way overpriced at $50K+. It needs a V-8 to be competitive. I'd buy it at $35K.
TL: Has just about all the features of the RL, but is priced more competitively. Probably the best deal for an Acura.
They did not have the all new Sentra at the show? New one looks to be very much an improvement over the past models. The 350Z suffers greatly from the too tall door syndrome, with too small windows. Sort of like peering out from a military armored car. Have to agree with ya on most of the cars you reviewed the latest post. Sounds like a pretty good show you went to.
there WAS a Sentra replacement at the Philly auto show. It was up on a rotating pedestal. I can't remember for sure, though. It was definitely a Nissan, but can't remembber if it was the Sentra replacement or something smaller to go up against the FIT, Yaris, etc.
Oh, and Lemko, my buddy's holding off until around May, but I think he's still dead-set on the Xterra. He hasn't called his insurance man yet to find out how much the Xterra, or Equinox would cost him. I told him to definitely factor that in. A $400-500 car payment can be bad enough, but if they slap you hard with an insurance premium, it can be really brutal. I dunno if an Xterra is "hot" enough to carry a big surcharge or not.
I tried to show him some pics of the Caliber, but he didn't seem interested. I think part of the problem is that even though he's not really a car guy, he's starting to "get" engine displacements. He knows his Tracker's a 1.6, and the Xterra's a 4.0. So when he sees stuff like 1.8 and 2.0 associated with the Caliber, he tends to equate that to his Tracker.
Before I get firebombed let me clarify. As car guys, we (and I'm among the worst) want cars we can ooh and aah over. Sure we have different passions (power, technology, handling, style, etc...), but it revolves around passion. Buyers as a whole are conservative. The cars that really get our attention do not sell well, and cars we boo and his about do.
Proof? In 1958 they ruined the Thunderbird to the tune of a 43% increase in sales.
The Mustang II didn't even offer a V-8 its first year, and a 2.8 V-6 was the performace option, but it outsold the previous 3 years combined.
Sure the Tuarus was critically acclaimed when it came out, but it didn't shoot to number 1, in fact it was an outdated design before it hit number 1 in sales.
The Chrysler Airflow, post-war Kaiser-Frasers, Tucker and Lowey Studebakers were all ahead of their time, and market failures.
We look back at the cars of the 60's and think American Muscle. The reality is different then we remember it. In 1965 Chevy sold 9100 Nova SS's which came standard with a 194 I-6 (120hp). They sold 4 times as many 4 cylinder models as SS's but most people now don't even realize there was a 4 cylinder.
The Chevelle/Malibu filled the same market then as it does now. In 1970 they sold over 450,000, of which less than 54,000 were SS's. The SS was available on coupe, convertible, sedan and wagon. The most common engine was a 307 V-8 with 200 gross horsepower. There were only around 3400 454's sold that year.
So how do we value it? By sales? By name recognition? By image? By net profit?
GM has been forcing dealers to combine these two makes for awhile now. One of the last seperate Buick dealerships in the state (Grand Rapids, MI) finally folded into the Pontiac dealer 2 months back. This is in addition to GMC, BTW, which has been a part of Pontiac dealerships for years now.
So far, we haven't really seen any fallout from this; the LaCrosse and Grand Prix are largely redundant, they both have minivans, and the Envoy/Rainier are the same stinking car.
The Lucerne and LaCrosse sort of interfere with each other, so I would bet the LaCrosse will go away. When the Grand Prix is renamed to G8, it will get a vastly improved interior and a more "luxe" treatment. The Lucerne will be the old man car, the G8 will be for the younger crowd.
If any badge dies, I would bet it would be GMC. They have no unique vehicles whatsoever, and it probably wouldn't be a big deal to simply call the commercial vehicles "Chevrolet".
The problem that GM has is that they have too many badges competing for a slice of pie that is half the size it used to be. I think they make some fantastic cars, but they are killing themselves. I'm personally wrestling with whether to go with the Impala SS or Grand Prix GXP. In many ways they're the same car, but since GM's badges feel the need to compete with each other, stupid decisions are made such as to not let the Impala have auto climate control. And, the GP doesn't have Homelink, where the Impala does.
It's aggrevating to the extreme to be a GM shopper.
My last car was an Olds Intrigue (finally getting around to the point of the thread ). I loved the car, they killed the brand, I bought a Nissan Maxima. Only recently, with the advent of the Impala SS and GP GXP, does GM have something that compares. Nissan's 3.5L V6 destroys GM's V6s in every imaginable way. Only by dropping a V8 into their midsize sedans can GM compete with that kind of engineering. The 3.5L V6 in the Intrigue was a very nice motor, BTW; not quite up to the Nissan's, but much more refined than GM's 3.8L, or god forbid the 3.4L.
I think about what an '06 Intrigue could have been, and I get even more angry with GM. Ideally, the Pontiac G8 will be this car, but my hopes are not high. Even thinking outside the world of autos, GM has got to be the most mismanaged company of its size in history. It would be disastrous for my state and country if something happened to them, but not surprising. General Motors is a lot like the US Government; they stumble and bumble through their existances, occasionally doing the right thing, most of the time not.
"So far, we haven't really seen any fallout from this; the LaCrosse and Grand Prix are largely redundant, they both have minivans, and the Envoy/Rainier are the same stinking car."
I know I read somewhere very recently that the Pontiac version of the minivan will be going away VERY shortly, and isn't the Grand Prix going to take a hiatus after this year or next? I think it should go permanently - there is no room in the "sport division" (Pontiac) for such a large car, they have the Impala to keep all the large-car people (there are less of them every year, apparently) happy, and the SS for the "sport minded" among them.
The current plan to combine Pontiac, Buick, and GMC is seemingly off course, if they reintroduce the Grand Prix as the G8 or whatever. Pontiac and Buick are not supposed to have any redundancies any more. That is the pitfall of such a plan - that later on someone will have a NEW "bright idea" and attempt to bring both brands back to full-line status.
I say rename the Lucerne and Rendezvous as Chevrolets (and update the Rendezvous) and dump the rest of the Buick line just as fast as your fingers can type "closeout sale".
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So how do we value it? By sales? By name recognition? By image? By net profit?
Strictly in financial terms, you might value the earnings with some consideration for the underlying asset value.
As an acquisition target, some reasons to value companies can include: -Distribution network -R&D -Intellectual property (unique designs, patents, etc.) -Goodwill (i.e. customer loyalty to brand and nameplates) -Opportunities for improved efficiencies (cutting out the fat and redundencies, thus improving margins) -Opportunities to build goodwill (i.e. take existing brands and more fully exploit them) -Other business units with value (i.e. financing arms, etc.) -New gateway to other product lines, i.e. leveraging the brands of Ford or GM to sell other rebranded products
In the case of Ford and GM, I'll bet that there isn't much of value in the first few categories to a large competing automaker such as Toyota or Renault. There might be room for cost efficiencies by eliminating duplicate brands, etc., but I personally doubt that this addresses the fundamental problem of undesirable products.
You'd have to ask yourself (a) who is big enough to buy any of these guys, and (b) why they would bother. There aren't many that fit in the first category, and of those, I can't see why they'd want to bother.
For one, Toyota has largely avoided acquisition strategies, they build and create their own brands and believe in organic growth. For another, they are already pummeling GM, so there is no reason for them to walk into a Pandora's box of labor unions, bad image, useless nameplates, uninspired management, inflexible plants and out-of-whack cost strutures, so there's nothing for them there for someone like them to buy.
I suspect that GM will use BK or the threat of it to kill the union, which will be heralded internally as the great salvation until the euphoria wears off and it becomes apparent that most of the cars are still inadequate. But if they can kill the unions, it may become a more interesting acquisition or JV target, which will mean a few golden parachutes for some top dogs and some pink slips for many of the rest.
if all the top management fat cats from GM in the 80s sit around today feeling bad that the coming self-destruction of this huge company, an American icon, is pretty much a direct result of their laziness and ineptitude way back then...
Probably not. They are all rich I am sure. They probably just get on their yachts and go for another ride.
:-P
"(a) who is big enough to buy any of these guys,"
Kerkorian is, and I am still waiting for him to take over this year and sell GMAC, the only profitable part of the whole company. That move, while great for him in terms of profits, will almost certainly ensure the eventual bankruptcy filing of GM.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
...is that both the Buick Rendezvous and Rainier are going away soon (next year?) to be replaced by the surprisingly good-looking (but badly named) Enclave.
And I think that the minivans will also go away for the next go-around except for Chevy's.
There is no way GMC will be killed, as it brings in more sales than any other GM division besides Chevy.
Really, GM ought to sell Saab (if anyone will take it), fold Hummer into Cadillac, and keep combining Buick, Pontiac, and GMC with NO model overlap among these 3.
Not only that, but didn't I read somewhere that GMC is the brand with the highest per-unit profits of any at GM? They won't dump GMC, no way. But I could EASILY envision Pontiac-GMC dealers, with Buick nothing but pleasant (or not-so-pleasant! :-P) memories.
My poor local dealer is STILL trying to sell '05 Centurys - when did those go out of production??!! - that have been on the lot a year or more. That and a couple of the largest model, what was it before?
Also has Bonnevilles like crazy, all '05s except for a couple of '04s. Poor guy. He does well selling GTOs though, and of course he's marking up Solstices $4995. :-/
I get the sense that most of his business is in trucks. The cars just seem to sit there getting staler and staler. But the trucks, especially the large pick-ups, turn over pretty regularly.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
THAT'S it! Park Avenue. Yeah, he has some of those, although I don't know if they are Ultras. It makes me wonder at what point a dealer just GIVES away a car so it is not clogging up the lot any more.
He has one Bonneville GXP (GTP?, I forget) with the big engine and big rims that looks pretty cool. But $32K for a car with an interior that was outdated a decade ago? And gets like 18 to the gallon?
At least he's almost done selling the '04s (I think he has two left)! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
General Motors is reorganizing its field organization to assign field personnel to one of its four sales channels, Chevrolet, Cadillac-Hummer-Saab, Saturn and Buick-Pontiac-GMC.
The reorganization reverses a 1999 decision to remove field personnel's brand affiliation. It means that, for example, a Chevrolet dealer will deal with a Chevrolet-specific field representative, rather than one who works with several brands.
GM currently has about 80 percent of its sales volume going through stores that are "in channel," making the reorganization possible, LaNeve said.
Cadillac sales were up by 4.7 percent in January, but it was the division's car lines that carried the day; a number of its truck models dropped.
Chevy Impala, which experienced a 7.6 percent increase in sales in January thanks to a well-received redesign, was one of the country's top 20 best-selling models. Other GM models on January's top 20 list were Cobalt (sales increase of 140.5 percent), Malibu (18.1 percent decrease), TrailBlazer SUV (24 percent increase) and Silverado pickup (6.6 decrease).
Pontiac, which last year was thought by some mistakenly, according to GM officials to be on the chopping block, had a 55.3 percent increase in sales, with 33,019 sold in January compared with 21,468 a year ago. Its Solstice sports car has been sold out or is in strong demand in most markets, and its G6 intermediate-size car has caught on strongly.
The Solstice and the Torrent, a midsize SUV, have been functioning as "halo" cars for Pontiac, drawing in shoppers and the curious, "but having a definite spillover effect in people buying other Pontiac models instead," Mr. Libby said.
Comments
Among them, GM and Ford have very few good nameplates in North America. However, the corporate brands may be tarnished but are not without opportunties for redemption.
If GM and Ford build attractive cars that lead in their class segments and achieve the reliability of their direct Japanese rivals, I am confident that they could win back retail market share. They need to win back trust, but if Hyundai can make progress toward doing that, certainly these two could.
But the excessive degree of badge engineering, particularly for GM, has gotten to the point where few of the individual nameplates have value. Sloan's vision of a multi-tiered GM line that provide an upward, aspirational progression for its customer base is almost dead, and killing Olds was not enough.
If I was CEO of either, I'd slash the number of nameplates, eliminate the degree of overlap between brands, and possibly phase out some brands almost entirely. For example, there's no need to waste cash and marketing effort on building duplicate Fusions, Milans and Zephyrs, when the same marketing effort and cost efficiencies could be devoted entirely into one car with a stronger identity. Mercury's are often just Fords with old-man styling cues, while Pontiacs are Chevy's made for middle-aged wannabe boy racers. That's a waste of money and a good way to dilute and erode the image of all of these brands, not a helpful strategy at all.
Vibe
Better than I expected in terms of front seat room
Plastic seemed a little softer, better grade than typical GM, though too much use of it - sea of gray, typical
115V outlet, in dash, nice touch
Cup-holder heaven, too many for my tastes
Chrome trim pieces look, feel cheap. Easily nicked
Steering wheel to shifter position, not bad (didn't have to change position when moving hand from wheel to shifter)
Very, very anemic engine - can get down right scary when trying to merge/pass with more than one person in vehicle
Some versatility, but not much
Engine buzzy, not really smooth
Was able to pile five people in there, including a +6ft. person, but I wasn't and wouldn't sit in the back
Cubby holds in back (owner's manual was in one of them :confuse: ), but covers were very flimsy - just screamed take me off more than twice and I'm going to break
Seat controls awkward.
Switchgear ok, nice action
Overall, not a bad little Toyota/GM runabout, but not sure how it would hold up (vehicle spent 50%/50% in Texas and Mexico). Anything other than an overnight bag, forget it. Make sure most of your driving is on the flat, so much as a slight grade will cause this thing to get tired quick.
MC
Suffered from expansive plastic - plastic everywhere
Doors reminded me of the last 2-gen F-bodies, long, heavy, plasticky
Decent merging, but that's about it - push it and it tires FAST
Seats not that supportive
Decent trunk
Switchgear ok
Styling, hmmmm well, not my cup of tea
Overall, a good battle tank for short-term, but if expecting a sporting, responsive flavor, look elsewhere.
Would I own either of these, nope; there are better offerings out there that would fit my wants/needs for the same or less money.
Rock,
I did notice there where a LOT of G6s in Texas. You guys running a special we don't know about?
****
I was actually thinking about a 96-98 S500/S420LWB - the older square tanks. Before they stopped hand-assembling them. These can be had for well under 20K, drive like no Caddy ever will, offer tons of power and refinement, and well, yeah - a bit pricey to fix, but 20K in your savings account for the price difference - buys a lot of maintainence.
Oh - and they last for 30-40 years, so should. The new plastic Mercedes? Not going to happen.
Older BMWs like a 96-97 M5 are also superb choices. Worth the search, and much better than the M3. With so many choices for fine luxury cars in the used market, I'm amazed that anyone even buys a new one. 20K - I can find V12 Mercedes and BMWs for that price.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=195658508
Perfect example. V12 engine, low miles, and all the goodies. Not even $20K. So much better than an Accord that it actually IS funny.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=194267461
This one the the convertable, which is tons rarer and actually will hold its vale better than the sedan.
I used these as examples of the ultra-top-end at reasonable prices. The V8 BMWs and V8 Mercedes are about 2/3 that price and every bit as driveable.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=194646203
Um... Dealer. Asking 14K - haggle to 12-13K easily. Long Wheelbase S420 with 66K miles.
Um... New Caddy or used Mercedes for 1/4 the price?
DUH.
That aside, GM's pricing is 15-20% too high. They need to drop all vehicles by 20%, drop all incentives and rebates, and financing. This would help them in more ways than they can imagine, most of all, with resale value.
Are you talking rentals or retail sales? G6 is selling well.
What is this statement based on? Toyota And Chevy sales are virturally neck and neck in the US, And GM and Toyota Corp sales are 1 and 2 globally (which is why a merger between the two wouldn't be allowed).
Hyundai sales are climbing, becoming a threat perhaps to Honda and Nissan, but Chevrolet? Chevrolet sold 172,000 vehicles in the US last month, Hyundai sold 455,000 all of last year.
the cobalt and impala are original they pretty plain and the cobalt's back looks exactly like the G6's back There is no originality, all their cars look the same
Um...when exactly has Toyota ever been a styling leader? The Whirlpool inspired xB perhaps?
When the lease on his old Chevy Tahoe expired, Michael Wujczyk toyed with going in another direction. Maybe something smaller. Maybe a different brand. But when he saw the 2007 Tahoe, he stopped looking.
"They just made some great changes to the truck," said the 52-year-old door distributor from Farmington Hills, who leased one of the new SUVs last month.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060215/AUTO01/602150411
Looks like GM has some positive news.
But to address other points: Does anyone really lust after a Camry either? I'll submit that they do not. Does anyone get excited about a Pilot? Some cars are there to fufill a need while we lust after the Corvettes and Ferraris of the world. Frankly, I can't think of a single Toyota that I would lust after (Honda has the S2000).
From a pure retail customer standpoint, the more makes/models out there the better because it means more competition. Obviously the domestics aren't exciting you and the Asians are. Fair enough for you. Others might ask whether a "Sephia" has any value.
From an American economy standpoint, the domestics have a big impact, but I'm not going to try and argue with anyone who thinks that GM "going away" wouldn't affect them.
Only thing smarter for GM would be to close down Pontiac and Buick while they're at it. GM's corporate structure proves design isn't the only retro feature at the General...
I am quite sure this will prove to have been a prudent move in the long run. And as john said, they probably need to cut one more division loose, and my vote is DEFINITELY Buick.
Remember, they are STILL at overcapacity, and will need to cut production another 25% in the years to come. When that's done, why would they want to still be supporting so many divisions?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This is an interesting point, and I think gets at the heart of the matter, namely that since the 60s, when people lusted over cars, bought based on who won at the track, and waited breathlessly each fall for the curtains to fall at the local dealer to see what was new and improved, things have changed a great deal.
What changed? Globalization happened, car choices multiplied tenfold, and in real dollars cars became a lot cheaper to buy new, meaning people bought a lot more often, and the bloom was off the rose. Kids may still lust after Ferraris and Porsches, but no-one lusts after lesser cars these days, and even if they do, it doesn't translate into sales for that company any more (except for the drooling enthusiasts here at Edmunds of course.....and we know we are in a tiny minority, don't we?! :-))
Now, in terms of GM and Ford, I agree that there is a great deal of redundancy that still needs to be eliminated. I read that at the time Kerkorian increased his stake in GM last year, he could have bought the whole company for $13.5 billion (yes, he has that much money!), as could many other car companies. But what would be the point? You don't takeover the number one if you can see that it is in a virtually unstoppable decline that will soon take it out of your way anyway.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Strangely, I though that at the time they annnounced the death of the brand, Olds had some attractive cars like the Alero and Aurora.
The Lucerne seems to be selling well and is getting some respectable press. The LaCrosse and G6 are dull as dishwater, although the G6 coupe and convert are decent lookers until you see the interior.
Who knows what the General was thinking with the Torrent, Ranier and Tourazza.
Leave the SUV's to Chevy and GMC, maybe sell a mini van. Keep the Lucerne and GTO. Kill the Lacrosse and G6 and come up with a midsize sedan that can be optioned to the sporty side or lux side, raid the corporate parts bins from Holden, Opel and Caddy to do so.
Now what brand name do you keep? Or do we call them Pontuicks or Buiacs?
Now they are sprouting up here in a few more numbers, but only have seen 2 coupes, one on the street another on the lot. But again, the coupe just reminds me of a Solara.
There are quite a few Cobalts around here; and seems our parking lot is getting full of the '06 Impalas, rentals though. Hopefully I'll be able to get behind the wheel of one soon and give an assessment. Exterior styling-wise, it seems derivative, an "I've seen that before" feel, kind of Honda-ish to me, but that may be what its market wants. But I think a negative repercussion could be "If I wanted something that looks like a Honda, Toyota, VW, whatever, I'd buy a Honda, Toyota, whatever."
In a way, the answer is "yes". How many Camrys are sold each year? Those weren't fleet sales, they were done retail, one car at a time, by people who had many other choices, and CHOSE to endure what I've found to be the most obnoxious dealers on the planet (....but that's a topic for another Forum thread)...if that's not at least a form of "lust", I don't know what is!
Remember, we're not looking at this as a "lust" thing, but from a dollar-centric Point of View.
Forgetting that ANY of the manufacturers could transform themselves by designing a full line of hot products, what I'm thinking, right now, is: What's the compelling story for either of these companies? I'm not looking this as a consumer, but from a business perspective. Imagine you were looking to buy GM (the whole company): Why would/wouldn't you? GMAC is profitable, but, in the auto manfacturing area, what is there? Quick: name TWO current Buick models? Is there ANY reason to buy a Pontiac G6 over its competition? Honda came out with their new Civic model last fall. Check out the Edmunds chat room for the Si! People are going NUTS for these things! The Honda Civic sedan is EPA rated at 30/40 MPG - for a car that's actually rather large. That's remarkable, IMHO. The "Civic" model is an institution, and has significant worth. The same with the Honda Accord, and the Toyota Camry. Meanwhile, GM throws money down a veritible rathole by killing a model's crediblilty (anyone recall the last Nova or Malibu?), and then creating replacement models which are under-performers by ANY measure, throwing millions of advertising dollars to support the "brand", and then running them into the ground again.
For did it with the Taurus; what a shame.
So, again, I ask: What parts of these companies would you pay $$$ for, if you could break them up? Think out of the box! Perhaps Hyunda/Kia would be interested in buying the Chevrolet and Pontiac brands? Those names probably still have some worth...or not?
Perhaps Toyota would be interested in buying the Corvette "brand", and using THAT name for a high-performance Lexus?
Nice thread going so far! Thanks for making it interesting!
Now, about Pontiac and Buick, I would keep the 2 separate brands, but I would pitch the Pontiac brand as ultra performance and the Buick as refinement.
I would dump the G6, SV6, and Torrent; redesign the Grand Prix, bring back the Grand Am nameplate to go on a new RWD sedan, and perhaps build a full size performance sedan. (Bonneville)
For Buick, the LaCrosse, Terraza and Ranier have to go. I would keep Lucerne, redesign Rendezvous, bring back a compact premium car (Buick Excelle type) and make the interiors much better.
Besides, even if the supply is renewable, you still need to show that the atmosphere can take it if we all get to burn as much fuel as we'd like.
And you say wagons are ugly, but you LIKE how SUVs look?
I don't care, personally. Every man can drive what he likes.
A 5.1 percent stake would make New York-based Morgan Stanley the sixth-largest GM shareholder. Kerkorian, through his Tracinda Corp. holding company, is GM's fourth-largest shareholder. GM investors such as Brandes Investment Partners LP, Southeastern Asset Management Inc. and Goldman Sachs Group Inc. also increased holdings, according to filings this week.
Right now GM sells just under 2 million vehicles per year in the US. So for 2007 and 2008 almost all GM vehicles will have the 6 speed?
GM announces that a Buick Enclave will have a 270hp and will arrive in a year from now. Only a month later and without any introductions, Lexus announces that its 2007 Lexus RX350 now offers 270hp and improved fuel ecenomy (19/24 mpg for AWD) and is ALREADY ON SALE. Lexus will enjoy a whole year of power advantage until the Buick arrivees. And when it does, an all-new Lexus RX will be only 2 years away.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/16/business/16outsource.html?_r=1&th=&adxnnl=1&or- ef=slogin&emc=th&adxnnlx=1140094342-5zeDiZmJIWYsBNqUYOidWA
Impala: much nicer interior than the previous generation. The exterior design isn't as distinctive as the old design - kind of like an update of the Lumina.
Cobalt: Love the coupe! I wish they used those taillights on the sedan. I don't like the new HVAC controls - they seem cheap compared to the ones used on last year's car.
Malibu: Deleting the heavy chrome front and rear bars dramatically improves the car's appearance. I still feel the headlights are too high. Bothered by feel of controls.
Aveo: Current car not on display. Next year's update was shown and it looks really sharp.
Monte Carlo: Doesn't look as bad in person as it does in pictures.
Corvette: Nice! Consistently the nicest car Chevrolet builds.
Saturn:
Aura: Really nice! This car should be out in the market NOW!!!
Sky: Beautiful mini-Vette. I like it better than the Solstice.
Ion: Not as bad as everbody says, though the centralized instrument panel draws barbs. Well, what about the Yaris and Scion? I noticed the Nissan Quest has a similar instrument panel.
Vue: Some don't like the new grille. I do.
Relay: The only one of GM's bottlenosed minivans that looks decent.
Pontiac:
G6: Not bad. Nicer than the Grand Am it replaces. The coupe looks promising. Cool hardtop convertible on the way.
Grand Prix: Still like this car. They had an example there in the nice blue-green metallic I've seen in a long time. I prefer the GXP with its Northstar V-8. I would rather have a Bonneville.
Solstice: Cute little sports roadster. It definately one-ups the Miata.
Torrent: I like it better than the Equinox.
GTO: Really nice interior with performance to match. Wish Pontiac would've made the styling more distinctive ala the retro Mustang.
Buick:
LaCrosse: I think this car is drop-dead gorgeous and better-looking than the Lexus GS which it seems to imitate. My girlfriend bought a LaCrosse last March and this car is extremely well-made and as reliable as tomorrow's sunrise.
Lucerne: Even the base Lucerne looks great by my standards and the price is very reasonable. However, I'd go all the way and get the Lucerne CXS with the 18" wheels and Northstar V-8! Great job, Buick! This car is near the top of my A-list when I go car shopping!
Cadillac:
CTS: I had one as a loaner car for a weekend and it's really a nice car. I was seriously considering one as a replacement for my 2002 Seville STS when gasoline prices were getting out of hand last summer. I didn't feel like I was sacrificing anything despite the car's smaller size and 2.8 V-6. The car had just about all the features to which I've becomed accustomed in my Seville.
STS: Really loved the STS-V I saw with the red suede accents. Would love to take one out on a track.
DTS: Far nicer interior than last year's car and the facelift makes the car look more substantial. The car actually has a METAL grille! Hallelujah! This car has an excellent shot at being my next car closely followed by the Buick Lucerne.
XLR: If I wanted an expensive toy, I'd take it over any exotic any day!
Dealerships and independent repair shops are also encouraging it because they know that I'll look up under my Intrepid, eye up that drain plug, thinking it's a 1/2" bolt. So I'll put a 1/2" socket on it, which almost fits, only to find out, after I've boogered up the bolt, that it's a 13mm. So now it's messed up just enough that a 13mm socket won't work on it anymore, so I have to keep using the 1/2" until it finally tears the bolt to hell to where it won't come out anymore. So I have to pay the repair shop to drill the sucker out! And buy a new drain plug! And, of course by this time, with all the forcing and yanking and pulling around and such, the threads on the aluminum oil pan are messed up just enough so that, even though now I've got a new drain plug AND keep a 13mm socket with the car at all times, eventually it starts leaking and needs to be fixed. I think a new oil pan's something like $500, installed. Or, to fix it with some heli-coil or whatever it's called, around $100.
It's all a conspiracy, I tell you! :P
Chevrolet:
Impala: Rather large Accord. Not bad looking. Best bought used.
Cobalt: Buy the real deal = Civic
Malibu: Buy the 1968. Current one is,well ummm, well let's no go there.
Aveo: OK, you need a little car, and you don't want an Hyundai I guess.
Base Civic, or Focus makes more sense.
Monte Carlo: Awkward styling, but it is at least a coupe. Needs RWD and a new body though to be a best choice.
Corvette: Always looking good. I prefer the C5, but the new one looks great too. Some may prefer the lights showing, and need 50 more HP. Still prefer the previous model.
Saturn:
Aura: Really nice! This car should be out in the market NOW!!! " dittos "
And don't overprice it.
Sky: Needs a coupe version. Looks OK, but I prefer the Solstice.
Ion: Strange look, as if car was designed by committee.
Vue: Another SUV - whoopie! Not as good looking as the Mazda Tribute and it has that electric assist steering.
Relay: A mini van = yawn time.
Pontiac:
G6: Not bad, if you get the one without electric assist steering and buy it used so you don't get hammered on resale value.
Grand Prix: Slightly awkward styling. Will be replaced no doubt.
Solstice: Cute little sports roadster. It definitely one-ups the Miata for style, if NOT performance.
Torrent: Another SUV, oh my.
GTO: Price it around $25K to $27K and put the real name back on the car and sell it as an import for Australia. Maybe Saturn can be the import dealership for Holden and Opel. It is not a GTO.
Buick:
LaCrosse: Not bad looking. Another car by Buick.
Lucerne: Another Buick, which should never have had a base engine in her, and would make a good Cadillac entry level car when Buick folds.
Cadillac:
CTS: Needs to match Chrysler 300 HP and features, such as telescopic steering column. Cool looking car!
STS: Less dynamic looking CTS which costs more money.
DTS: Looks pretty good, with the new skin. Makes a great used car in one to three years. Actually, some older people have perfect decade old cars with low miles. New one loses some 17K or more right off the bat.
XLR: Why not buy a Corvette for less money and have more car? Or get an SLK Mercedes for less money and have a really super looking car.
IMHO, Loren
What are you talking about? Everything at GM is metric now and has been for years. All drawings are in metric. All tolerances at the plant and in drawings are metric. GM was the first to change over around 1981 or so? I remeber trying to get the designers to think in metric back then instead of converting from english to metric on the drawings. those guys are all gone now and everything is done on the computer. So what are you talking about?
Now perhaps some tool shops still convert to english but they are not GM and I would bet they are rare now but cannot know for sure.
If that were true, Ferraris would generate very low lust due to low sales. Obviously, that's just not true.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Mustang: Good God, this car is beautiful! Love the GT and Shelby versions. This is retro done right!
Ford GT: the most impressive car Ford makes, but only two guys named Bills could afford one - Bill Ford and Bill Gates.
Fusion: I like it better than the Mercury Milan. It looks better in Ford livery.
Five Hundred: Looks like a Passat, except that it's reasonably priced and I could count on it to get me to work.
Crown Victoria: Same old Crown Vic. It's getting a bit stale. I love the fact that it's full frame, V-8-powered, and RWD, but the interior needs a serious refreshing. It's like it's still 1992.
Mercury:
Montego: Like the Infiniti-like clock in the center stack. The grille would make for a nice Buick. What's with that "gray wood" used in the interior? That is like so 2003!
Milan: Not bad, but it's like the Fusion's less attractive older sister. Weird taillights.
Grand Marquis: See Crown Victoria. Prices are crazy. The sticker showed $33K for the Grand Marquis LS Ultimate. I would buy this car at $28K, no more.
Lincoln:
Town Car: Lincoln has a few things over the Cadillac DTS, namely size, full-frame, and RWD but that's it. In all other respects it's so far behind Cadillac and all the foreign competition it isn't funny. The Town Car didn't seem much more impressive than the Grand Marquis. The Chrysler 300 has it all over the Town Car. If DCX goes ahead with the Imperial, the Town Car is dead.
LS: I remember when the LS debuted back in the day. I was worried for Cadillac as this car absolutely destroyed the mediocre Catera. Lincoln let this car get old and wither on the vine. Shame.
Zephyr: Great name, OK car. Needs a horsepower boost to be truly competitive. Fans of old-school Lincolns will appreciate the interior design. The interior looks much nicer in beige with the lighter wood.
Dodge:
Caliber: Kewl mini-Magnum. The dashboard drink cooler is a nice touch! Way nicer than the Peon...er ...Neon!
Charger: This car is a really awesome sedan! Make mine a red SRT-8! Would still be happy with it as a lowly 3.5 V-6. They've got to make a coupe version sometime in the future. Maybe that's the role of the Challenger? Great job, Dodge!
Magnum: Wow, somebody still makes a wagon and what a wagon it is!
Chrysler:
300/300-C/SRT-8: No matter how you spell it, it still says "awesome." They had a really nice red Hemi with circular red, white and blue "300-C" badges on the seat back for a nice touch.
Crossfire: nice toy based on an old Mercedes.
Sebring convertible: the youthful choice of happy, fortunate teenage girls everywhere.
Sebring sedan: the boring choice of older unfortunate working slobs, rental fleets, and stagnated middle-managers everywhere. This car seems a misfit in Chrysler's current exciting lineup. Even the minivan seems to exude more passion.
PT Cruiser: I believe this vehicle should've been a Plymouth all along. I like the exterior look of the Chevrolet HHR but the interior of the PT Cruiser better.
Toyota:
Yaris: Slightly nicer than the Echo it replaces, but not as nice as the Honda Fit. Why bother? I thought Scion took care of this market?
Corolla: Nice dependable compact. No changes this year, but way nicer than Corollas of the past which were the select choice of middle-aged secretaries. VW liked it enough to copy it for the Jetta.
Camry, (current): Eh, it's a Camry. Nothing to crow about.
Camry 2007: Aaaaghhh!!! What unlicensed plastic surgeon got his hands on the Avalon? The nose of this car is grotesque! However, the interior was quite nice with its wood accents.
Avalon: Really nice interior that steps on the toes of the Lexus ES330. The cover over the radio is a nice touch that reminds me of what Cadillac used to do in the mid 1960s. Liked the fact the car still has a cassette player in addition to the CD. A lot of my older music is still on cassette.
Prius: Hybrid a great idea, but the car is too expensive and too dorky looking. For a decent hybrid, check out the Civic Hybrid.
Honda:
Fit: Nice little car to compete against Yaris, Scion, and others. Seemed to have good fit and finish compared to the others.
Civic: Exterior looks like a rejected Saturn idea, but I dig the cool Jetsons instrument panel! Was really impressed by the hybrid, the only import I went back to look at twice!
Accord: Not many changes other than revised taillights.
Insight: little bullet car that appeals to the techie in me far more than the dorky Prius. Love the skirted wheels.
Nissan:
Sentra: I understand Nissan's replacing this model. They had a small car on display, but the name escapes me right now.
Altima: Nice exterior styling. Like the 1955 Dodge inspired taillights. Interior quality, however, is awful. What is Nissan's fetish for this silver painted plastic? It seems this is spreading to other automakers as well. Somehow, the Altima comes across better than the Maxima.
Maxima: Distinctive exterior styling, but the interior is a huge letdown. I love Nissan's bold designs.
Quest: Strange barrel shaped stack in the center of the instrument panel. I had to go back twice to see this oddity. The top of the "barrel" held the radio and HVAC controls as well as the shifter. The instruments were centrally mounted.
350Z : Once again, a cool design spoiled by a mediocre interior. It was neat how the instruments tilted with the steering wheel.
Subaru:
Tribeca: The front end reminds me of the helmet of the Cylon Centurions from the old "Battlestar Gallactica" TV show. It has a swoopy dashbord with Space Age styling. Overall quality seemed pretty good.
WRX: Sports a toned-down Tribeca-inspired grille. The car sure looks like fun from last year's commercials. Get your own rally car!
Acura:
RL: Really nice car both inside and out, but is way overpriced at $50K+. It needs a V-8 to be competitive. I'd buy it at $35K.
TL: Has just about all the features of the RL, but is priced more competitively. Probably the best deal for an Acura.
Loren
Oh, and Lemko, my buddy's holding off until around May, but I think he's still dead-set on the Xterra. He hasn't called his insurance man yet to find out how much the Xterra, or Equinox would cost him. I told him to definitely factor that in. A $400-500 car payment can be bad enough, but if they slap you hard with an insurance premium, it can be really brutal. I dunno if an Xterra is "hot" enough to carry a big surcharge or not.
I tried to show him some pics of the Caliber, but he didn't seem interested. I think part of the problem is that even though he's not really a car guy, he's starting to "get" engine displacements. He knows his Tracker's a 1.6, and the Xterra's a 4.0. So when he sees stuff like 1.8 and 2.0 associated with the Caliber, he tends to equate that to his Tracker.
Proof?
In 1958 they ruined the Thunderbird to the tune of a 43% increase in sales.
The Mustang II didn't even offer a V-8 its first year, and a 2.8 V-6 was the performace option, but it outsold the previous 3 years combined.
Sure the Tuarus was critically acclaimed when it came out, but it didn't shoot to number 1, in fact it was an outdated design before it hit number 1 in sales.
The Chrysler Airflow, post-war Kaiser-Frasers, Tucker and Lowey Studebakers were all ahead of their time, and market failures.
We look back at the cars of the 60's and think American Muscle. The reality is different then we remember it. In 1965 Chevy sold 9100 Nova SS's which came standard with a 194 I-6 (120hp). They sold 4 times as many 4 cylinder models as SS's but most people now don't even realize there was a 4 cylinder.
The Chevelle/Malibu filled the same market then as it does now. In 1970 they sold over 450,000, of which less than 54,000 were SS's. The SS was available on coupe, convertible, sedan and wagon. The most common engine was a 307 V-8 with 200 gross horsepower. There were only around 3400 454's sold that year.
So how do we value it? By sales? By name recognition? By image? By net profit?
So far, we haven't really seen any fallout from this; the LaCrosse and Grand Prix are largely redundant, they both have minivans, and the Envoy/Rainier are the same stinking car.
The Lucerne and LaCrosse sort of interfere with each other, so I would bet the LaCrosse will go away. When the Grand Prix is renamed to G8, it will get a vastly improved interior and a more "luxe" treatment. The Lucerne will be the old man car, the G8 will be for the younger crowd.
If any badge dies, I would bet it would be GMC. They have no unique vehicles whatsoever, and it probably wouldn't be a big deal to simply call the commercial vehicles "Chevrolet".
The problem that GM has is that they have too many badges competing for a slice of pie that is half the size it used to be. I think they make some fantastic cars, but they are killing themselves. I'm personally wrestling with whether to go with the Impala SS or Grand Prix GXP. In many ways they're the same car, but since GM's badges feel the need to compete with each other, stupid decisions are made such as to not let the Impala have auto climate control. And, the GP doesn't have Homelink, where the Impala does.
It's aggrevating to the extreme to be a GM shopper.
My last car was an Olds Intrigue (finally getting around to the point of the thread
I think about what an '06 Intrigue could have been, and I get even more angry with GM. Ideally, the Pontiac G8 will be this car, but my hopes are not high. Even thinking outside the world of autos, GM has got to be the most mismanaged company of its size in history. It would be disastrous for my state and country if something happened to them, but not surprising. General Motors is a lot like the US Government; they stumble and bumble through their existances, occasionally doing the right thing, most of the time not.
I know I read somewhere very recently that the Pontiac version of the minivan will be going away VERY shortly, and isn't the Grand Prix going to take a hiatus after this year or next? I think it should go permanently - there is no room in the "sport division" (Pontiac) for such a large car, they have the Impala to keep all the large-car people (there are less of them every year, apparently) happy, and the SS for the "sport minded" among them.
The current plan to combine Pontiac, Buick, and GMC is seemingly off course, if they reintroduce the Grand Prix as the G8 or whatever. Pontiac and Buick are not supposed to have any redundancies any more. That is the pitfall of such a plan - that later on someone will have a NEW "bright idea" and attempt to bring both brands back to full-line status.
I say rename the Lucerne and Rendezvous as Chevrolets (and update the Rendezvous) and dump the rest of the Buick line just as fast as your fingers can type "closeout sale".
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Strictly in financial terms, you might value the earnings with some consideration for the underlying asset value.
As an acquisition target, some reasons to value companies can include:
-Distribution network
-R&D
-Intellectual property (unique designs, patents, etc.)
-Goodwill (i.e. customer loyalty to brand and nameplates)
-Opportunities for improved efficiencies (cutting out the fat and redundencies, thus improving margins)
-Opportunities to build goodwill (i.e. take existing brands and more fully exploit them)
-Other business units with value (i.e. financing arms, etc.)
-New gateway to other product lines, i.e. leveraging the brands of Ford or GM to sell other rebranded products
In the case of Ford and GM, I'll bet that there isn't much of value in the first few categories to a large competing automaker such as Toyota or Renault. There might be room for cost efficiencies by eliminating duplicate brands, etc., but I personally doubt that this addresses the fundamental problem of undesirable products.
You'd have to ask yourself (a) who is big enough to buy any of these guys, and (b) why they would bother. There aren't many that fit in the first category, and of those, I can't see why they'd want to bother.
For one, Toyota has largely avoided acquisition strategies, they build and create their own brands and believe in organic growth. For another, they are already pummeling GM, so there is no reason for them to walk into a Pandora's box of labor unions, bad image, useless nameplates, uninspired management, inflexible plants and out-of-whack cost strutures, so there's nothing for them there for someone like them to buy.
I suspect that GM will use BK or the threat of it to kill the union, which will be heralded internally as the great salvation until the euphoria wears off and it becomes apparent that most of the cars are still inadequate. But if they can kill the unions, it may become a more interesting acquisition or JV target, which will mean a few golden parachutes for some top dogs and some pink slips for many of the rest.
Probably not. They are all rich I am sure. They probably just get on their yachts and go for another ride.
:-P
"(a) who is big enough to buy any of these guys,"
Kerkorian is, and I am still waiting for him to take over this year and sell GMAC, the only profitable part of the whole company. That move, while great for him in terms of profits, will almost certainly ensure the eventual bankruptcy filing of GM.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And I think that the minivans will also go away for the next go-around except for Chevy's.
There is no way GMC will be killed, as it brings in more sales than any other GM division besides Chevy.
Really, GM ought to sell Saab (if anyone will take it), fold Hummer into Cadillac, and keep combining Buick, Pontiac, and GMC with NO model overlap among these 3.
My poor local dealer is STILL trying to sell '05 Centurys - when did those go out of production??!! - that have been on the lot a year or more. That and a couple of the largest model, what was it before?
Also has Bonnevilles like crazy, all '05s except for a couple of '04s. Poor guy. He does well selling GTOs though, and of course he's marking up Solstices $4995. :-/
I get the sense that most of his business is in trucks. The cars just seem to sit there getting staler and staler. But the trucks, especially the large pick-ups, turn over pretty regularly.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
He has one Bonneville GXP (GTP?, I forget) with the big engine and big rims that looks pretty cool. But $32K for a car with an interior that was outdated a decade ago? And gets like 18 to the gallon?
At least he's almost done selling the '04s (I think he has two left)! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060216/SUB/60216014/1003/BR- EAKING&refsect=BREAKING
General Motors is reorganizing its field organization to assign field personnel to one of its four sales channels, Chevrolet, Cadillac-Hummer-Saab, Saturn and Buick-Pontiac-GMC.
The reorganization reverses a 1999 decision to remove field personnel's brand affiliation. It means that, for example, a Chevrolet dealer will deal with a Chevrolet-specific field representative, rather than one who works with several brands.
GM currently has about 80 percent of its sales volume going through stores that are "in channel," making the reorganization possible, LaNeve said.
Chevy Impala, which experienced a 7.6 percent increase in sales in January thanks to a well-received redesign, was one of the country's top 20 best-selling models. Other GM models on January's top 20 list were Cobalt (sales increase of 140.5 percent), Malibu (18.1 percent decrease), TrailBlazer SUV (24 percent increase) and Silverado pickup (6.6 decrease).
Pontiac, which last year was thought by some mistakenly, according to GM officials to be on the chopping block, had a 55.3 percent increase in sales, with 33,019 sold in January compared with 21,468 a year ago. Its Solstice sports car has been sold out or is in strong demand in most markets, and its G6 intermediate-size car has caught on strongly.
The Solstice and the Torrent, a midsize SUV, have been functioning as "halo" cars for Pontiac, drawing in shoppers and the curious, "but having a definite spillover effect in people buying other Pontiac models instead," Mr. Libby said.