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Comments
It would not make sense to call it a Holden or Opel as there are no Holden of Opel dealers in the US.
It probably would have been better to call it a Pontiac Monarch, however. If Monarch is some other company's trade mark, then any name. Just not a storied name like GTO that still has many live fans.
-Loren
Wasn't a Monarch a Plymouth?
There is too a dealership. It is called Saturn. No more plastic cars, so they are making Opels now. Why not just make them an import dealership? Our local Cadillac store has Saabs. I think the salesman said they bought something like 21 of them. Expect a huge discount sale soon, as panic to sell those will come soon! I would think they could sell around 5 to 10 a year in this county, based on the number I see on the road, and what I use to see on the lots of a Saab dealership in another town.
-Loren
Popular tastes in the US are nostalgic. During this housing boom, you have people more than one hundred years after the 'Ole Queen died making modern versions of the Victorian. The Mustang sure sells.
And the Charger = yuk, what's that thing?
I don't like either the Charger or the 300C. They make me think of something Spiderman's nemisis Kingpin would drive.
-Loren
*zzz*
Still, GM has a lot of retired names it could have used other than GTO.
I am not sure a V8 car would work at Saturn. But you are right, Saturn is becoming the Opel/Holden and, in the case of the next VUE, the GM DAT division.
Love them old cars too. Like to go to the track to see them. And the car shows and museums are great! Equally so, it would be so cool to see what the young minds could render up from drawings to end product. Still don't need electric steering and throttle-by-wire, thank you :shades:
In looking back, I guess some of those 1990's cars Japan and domestic looked pretty good. And the technology is so that they do not require the maintenance of old cars, yet are no too techno-wizard in nature. And look how nice smooth Z became this car with the too tall doors and micro windows. Heck, it even looked smoother and lower.
I may catch some flack, but the Tiburon is one of the few cars which kinda excites. I like the presence of the CTS too. But in the sub 21K class, the stylin' is lackin'. The Civic, in a small car, is pretty good looking in the coupe'.
-Loren
I was thinking Dodge Monaco. Thanks for setting me straight on that one.
The GTO has to be an American car, RWD, and well not overly expensive. Otherwise it is just another replica car for Baby Boomers. I am at the tail end years of that generation, and like the 60's cars. Some style hints, in a new body is fine. Replica cars??? Nahhh, just go to the cars shows or the race tracks, or heck buy the real deal.
-Loren
:sick:
In some markets, people just seem to be real resistant to change. There was a movie with Mel Gibson a few years back where the bad guys had a car phone that was actually a 1960s type house model complete with long cord attached to the dash. I often think that is where modern home and car design is heading.
but the Tiburon is one of the few cars which kinda excites.
Perhaps the fact the Koreans do not have a tradition in cars helps.
What would save the US is finding an alternative to fossil fuels.
Wasn't the Monarch name used on Canadian Fords...then later in the 70's as Mercury Monarch?
As far as the GTO IMO Pontiac named it right, it just didn't follow through on proper execution. IE: priced to high etc.
What would save the US is finding an alternative to fossil fuels."
Who are you, Bill Ford??? That's sure what he thinks, and I think he's nuts. Oh, but on you it looks good!!
No a merger only works if there is a strong one taking over the weaker one, and preferably without a 15:1 debt ratio. Unless the tax payers want to buy a manufacturer as a Nation GM company, or China wants to take it over. then I can not see any buyouts or mergers. Don't think China buying out GM would set well with Washington D.C. and the people at large.
Style -- will style save the day. Probably not, though it would not hurt to see some style. The year 1968 stands out in my mind as one of great style presence for the GM line. They were on their game then. Now it is a car here or there. Money -- more money may be needed to see those glory years for Body by Fisher. And yes, there are so many other great years before then. Recall Buick and Cadillac style in the earliest years? World class beauties.
I do hope that American Industry as a whole is not just something kids will read about in history books. Would be a good think if the government was not spending money like a drunk sailor, and investing it in infrastrucor instead. Where are the high speed rail trains like in France and Germany? Oh but we are shootin' off into space - great.
-Loren
True, but like the pruning of a tree's less valuable branches, our economy bounces back after a fall. We lost a huge number of aerospace workers and computer/IT workers here in southern Cal in the early 2000's, yet the economy is much better now. Michigan and Ohio will survive, too. A few years later a lot of people are glad that things changed, as new opportunities are found, new businesses formed.
I do, however, think we're done as a long term auto builder in this country.
That's not what Hyundai, BMW, Honda, and Toyota think. If you mean the UAW, then yes, the numbers will be dropping a lot.
-Loren
Was thinking of getting a Mustang or Camaro one fine day, but not sure now. Maybe a used Stang - say an '04. Not sure about the new one in some ways. The new Camaro looks like a monster cartoon version of the original one. Not sure what is going on there, but I know I wouldn't want anything wider than a Lincoln Towncar :surprise: May take a look at the FWD, G6 GTP coupe (little pricey new?) some day. Maybe a used one, because, well you know why - depreciation factor. Could catch a close-out on Monte's though. Not sure it is crisp enough handling to be a sport coupe - maybe. Are they gone in another year? New RWD Monte or maybe a Malibu? Or is the money no longer there
GM has simmilar problems - I honestly don't believe GM can survive in the long term while we have the same people at the top. In the future, it will be seem as another Titanic. The same hubris, the same "Unsinkable" mantra - and a case-study in corporate irresponsibility.
Yes, I know the steel used in Mr. T was more so. Iceberg did not help matters at all.
So how sails the Edsel? Or is that Bill? Looks like the use of the Mazda to help in the Fusion project and the Volvo to produce the FiveHundred is a good thing. Now, are the Mazda and Volvo labels better off on-board the good ship Ford? Or is this new ship another Andrea Doria? The fog is thick - what will emerge? I hear that Hyundai builds ships.
The Titanic GM is not the only ship endanger of sinking, or headed on a collision course.
GM and Ford both are said to have a way forward, with bold moves and all that good stuff. We'll see.
Do you think some people are holding off buying to the end of year clearance time, or even longer waiting to see what happens with GM as the dust settles?
-Loren
And why wouldn't consumers wait and see? Fleet sales canabalize the used value of them. A new LaCrosse for $25K or a 6 month old one(still a 2006 model!) for $18K at the other end of the lot. 2007 is close at hand as well, and that's another chunk of change they go down in value.
Is the dust going to settle in 2007' ? I really think Loren, time will tell. I'm wooried about quality issues as GM/Delphi is rushing these newbies on the learning curve of there jobs. The veterans that took the package want out and want there money if they are entitled to any. The new employees are wondering right now if they will be hired and wonder if they will ever get some benefits. I think they will have a high turn over ration if benefits aren't part of the deal and you will have inexperienced new employees training new hires. So yeah the ship could sink in quality for at least the short-term. The long-term is going to have to be a UAW contract that's competitive and flexible. I fear GM will import cars from China, unless GM can keep the $18 an hour with ZERO benefits going for a while until the shuteer some plants over the next few years. I do agree with you Loren, we are in some sort of a big scale recession. People are holding on to there dollars tighter now and use them on new car purchases.
Rocky
Even though both sides have been locked in negotiations for months, there are still major issues to resolve and little hope of reaching an agreement quickly, UAW Vice President Cal Rapson said in his first meeting with UAW leaders from GM and Delphi plants.
Absent a deal, Delphi will return to bankruptcy court on Aug. 11 to seek permission to void its labor contracts. Such an approval would allow the supplier to impose wage cuts and push the union closer to a devastating strike.
But Rapson dismissed the deadline Wednesday in a move that suggests he is already plotting a defiant course in talks with Delphi.
Any goal that Delphi has is Delphi's goal and doesn't mean anything to the union, Rapson said, according to Robert Betts, president of UAW Local 2151, which represents Delphi workers in Coopersville, Mich. Betts attended Wednesday's meeting in Detroit.
The UAW meeting came as Delphi prepared to return to bankruptcy court in New York today, where a judge is expected to approve two worker buyout programs at Delphi that will take an even bigger slice out of the UAW and the International Union of Electrical Workers-Communication Workers of America in coming months.
If approved, the buyout programs will usher thousands more Delphi workers out the door of the troubled company. On Monday, Delphi said 12,600 of its 33,000 U.S. factory workers had accepted early retirement offers under a separate program and would leave the company by the end of the year.
The programs are part of a sweeping turnaround effort at Delphi, which filed for bankruptcy in October after failing to win concessions from its six unions and bailout money from GM.
GM, which spun off the supplier in 1999, still has obligations to former employees at the parts maker and remains Delphi's biggest customer. That's why the automaker entered the Delphi-UAW talks in November and continues to be a key player.
But if Delphi returns to court on Aug. 11 without a wage-cut agreement and pushes to reject its labor contracts, the whole process could go south. A strike at Delphi could not only wreck the supplier, but tip GM into bankruptcy.
Delphi spokesman Lindsey Williams said the supplier is determined not to let that happen.
"It is our focus to reach a comprehensive agreement prior to Aug. 11," he said.
GM spokeswoman Toni Simonetti also said it is in the best interests of all the parties to get a deal done outside of court in coming weeks.
But UAW President Ron Gettelfinger and Rapson on Wednesday suggested that finding common ground with Delphi may be difficult unless the company backs off demands for brutal wage cuts and benefit reductions.
The union may be willing to negotiate on some issues, but contends that the current labor contract, which sets wage rates for new hires at nearly half the rate of existing workers, is already competitive, according to one UAW official who attended the meeting.
In bankruptcy, Delphi has sought to lower its $27 per hour wages by as much as 60 percent. But the UAW does not want to renegotiate wages until its contract expires in 2007.
Separately, Delphi's creditors are seeking the right to sue GM to retrieve billions of dollars in costs they said were transferred to Delphi when it was spun off in 1999.
In papers filed with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Manhattan Tuesday, Delphi's creditors blamed the spin-off for much of Delphi's current financial troubles. Delphi has made the same contention in court papers, but the creditors said it has lately shown signs of wanting to let GM off the hook.
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060629/AUTO01/606290373/- 1148
Rocky
But the worst part is that their decisions are still puzzling- like why no high output 4 cylinder in the Saturn Aura (make it like a Acura TSX or something)? D-C comes out with an announcement for the Smart, Ford making rumblings about a whole new series of gas sippers, not to mention all of these Yaris/Fit/Versa cars coming out. I just don't get it- displacement on demand may not be such a big saver. And again, any kind of more serious wars/disruptions in the Middle East could send gasoline spiraling to over $4/gallon. I don't see GM ready for that kind of scenario.
Rocky
Believe it or not, Chrysler was actually the first to rush a pony car to the market! The 1964 Barracuda beat the "1964 1/2" Mustang to the market by a couple of weeks. Of course, the Mustang had been in development much longer, and the Barracuda was just a rush job, a Valiant with a funky roofline, that Chrysler hurried out so they could claim to beat the Mustang. It never posed a serious threat to the Mustang in sales, or the Camaro/Firebird to follow.
In 1967-69, Chrysler put a lot more effort into the Barracuda, but it still wasn't quite the ponycar that a Mustang, Camaro, or Firebird was. Perhaps those 60's Barracudas were somewhere in the middle ground between the ponycar and the higher-performance/sporty compacts such as the Nova SS, Falcon Sprint, Dart GT, etc.
As for the new Challenger, I read that one reason the car ended up being so wide is that they wanted to somewhat preserve the proportions of the original. However, the new concept has a much higher roof, so they made the car wider to give it the perception of a lower car.
One other tidbit...while the Mustang gets credit for starting off the ponycar, Chevy actually discovered that market, accidentally, with the introduction of the Corvair! As a mass-market compact, the Corvair never pulled down the type of sales that GM wanted. However, the sporty models, such as the Monza, found a definite niche and showed that there was a market for a sporty compact. Prior to this, the typical formula for a performance car was to take a standard-sized car and put a high-output engine in it, and load it up with options and glitz, and put out a limited edition model in the vein of the DeSoto Adventurer, Chrysler 300 Letter Series, Plymouth Fury, Pontiac Grand Prix, etc.
GM caught flat-footed again. Will they want to respond to Smart or will the Aveo kind of be their answer. If DC gets 15K for the Smart, maybe GM could build and make a profit on a better looking Smart type car what with the temps and lower wage people they will be hiring. Maybe they should forget the focus groups on Camaro concept and get some groups going on Smart, Fit and Yaris alternatives.
It is unless you're one of those former aerospace or computer/IT workers. I guess southern Cal gained a massive amount of Wal-Mart and food service positions to compensate.
GM already has a very able competitor to the three. It is called a Corsa.
GM caught flat-footed again.
Who else has a two seater, three cylinder, city only car on the market? And who has made money on the concept (don't say Daimler Chrysler, Smart's losses are nearing a billion). If that is getting caught flat footed, take away my arches, please.
So are these available at my local Chevy dealer? (Note to self: Need to move to Europe if I want to own a decent GM car.)
GM caught flat-footed again.
That's an accurate statement, it's really not possible to review the falling sales figures and dispute this. I'm looking in the US lineup for a bona fide competitor in the small car market, and I'm not finding one. (And no, the slow selling Aveo doesn't count for much.)
GM should start investing in Buses like you said since I fear oil could tip $100 a barrel if we get a cat-4 or 5 hurricane to damage the rigs in the gulf. Some climatologists are predicting one to hit the gulf again.
I also think GM should try to expand it's styling to bullet trains, seriously. That might be how we travel in the future with $10 dollar a Gal. gas prices. :sick:
Rocky
Heck, why not more Camaros and Mustangs? GM could build the ultimate, high-quality, low-cost, ultra-fuel efficient vehicle and CR will tell people to shun them in favor of less efficient Asian alternatives. As long as we're walking on the thin ice, we might as well dance. People who buy those huge SUVs and hi-performance cars usually don't give a rat's butt about fuel economy. It is a concern of mine, but is not the number one priority on my list. Besides, my '88 Park Ave and girlfriend's LaCrosse deliver excellent fuel economy and we don't have to suffer comfort or style or look like Birkenstock-wearing, tree-hugging, granola-gorging, eco-weenie, ex-hippie '60s relics by driving SMARTs, (Squashed by Macks and Refrigerator Trucks).
Rocky. I do agree people that love trucks/suv's are going to sacrifice other pleasures to keep petro in the tank first and foremost.
Rocky
When can we expect to see one of those in our neighborhood showrooms? Is this GM's version of the Euro Focus - a great car we never see?
It is no secret that GM/Ford simply doesn't have the techincal know-how to build a fuel efficient I-4 with a decent perfromance. Even the Koreans have started edging ahead now.
Wasn't there a Tempest, or some other 60's GM which had sort a tricky oversteer. Lots of cars, no doubt would be fun,and dangerous in the wrong hands. Wrong as in the average driver won't be able to handle the snap oversteer. Getting off the gas, or braking in the middle of a turn can have some expected consequence with rear heavy cars. A little hammer effect as she spins to eternity.
Mustang is the pony car, and thus the beginning of terminology. First muscle car may be the Oldsmobiles which won on the track at NASCAR events. I guess the most famous muscle car is the GTO, though there are so many in the class, everyone picks a different car.
Wonder what it costs to replace a rear window on the Barracuda? First ones were truly ugly. Last ones, very good indeed. Always like those AMX and Javelins too.
And for a beauty contest, the Camaro and Challenger/'Cudas stand out, IMHO. For the Stang, I guess it is the '67-'69 styles. Still like the redo in 1994, and I am pretty sure the 1999 was as successful, if not more so than the '94s.
GM, Ford and Chrysler all have good compact cars, like the Nova, Fairlane, and Dart, but the only RWD to come back is this large 300. Why not a smaller RWD. And the classic looks of all those cars is great. Make car which look better than the Japan designs. Couldn't hurt. Obviously things are not selling too fast these days. Must say, the FWD Fusion/Milan/Zephyr is pretty pleasing to the eye.
-Loren
Are you thinking Tempest with the transmission in the rear to help the weight distribution? It had a small, flexible driveshaft rod?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Where's the value in GM & Ford? The legacy names, like "Corvette" and "Mustang"?
The parts business?
I keep thinking that, if I were a company like Toyota, or Hyundai/Kia, there's no much that GM/Ford have on the table that I couldn't do better.
This is rich coming from someone who thinks '88 Park Ave and Brougham are cool.
The Astra is on its way. I expect the Corsa will follow.
That's an accurate statement, it's really not possible to review the falling sales figures and dispute this. I'm looking in the US lineup for a bona fide competitor in the small car market, and I'm not finding one. (And no, the slow selling Aveo doesn't count for much.)
Fascinating. We are discussing the Smart. GM's 2006 sales are down because Chrysler plans on bringing a car to the US in 2008.
The more I look at that Tempest, while it is basically rectangular, it has some style. Look at the current Malibu - yuk! Then there is the G6, which I guess does have some style, and make a decent coupe. Still can't figure out why the G6 sedan doesn't look right to me. I think it is the side profile. Oh heck, both the coupe and sedan are an attempt at more style -- this is good. Now bring on the RWD. Ya know, staring at that little Tempest and thinking it looks classier than todays cars. Oh well, everyone see something different in cars, and thus so many models to choose from.
-Loren
The Astra is on its way. Expect the Corsa and possibly the Zafria to follow.