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You've pretty much got the idea. If the driving duties aren't divided equally, the TCM will skew its shift characteristics proportionately toward the principle driver's habits. The learning does not take place immediately, either. Months can elapse as the TCM refines its shift quality mapping. "Learning" also occurs as internal parts wear to compensate for changing shift quality characteristics over the life of the tranny. (Younger readers may've had no experience with going to the dealer or a transmission shop for routine "band" adjustments to compensate for slack-induced slippage that were periodically required with earlier automatic transmission designs.)
Begs the question, perhaps, where did laid-off GM and Ford assembly line workers end up?
Also , you have to realize that the frist model year of any new major car remake/design change normally has some first year problems , especially when their testing and QA have fallen off.
Good Luck,
MidCow
could be wrong about that.
the great, really great thing about posts claiming "no problems" means literally there is a problem with the car you may be driving. however, the root cause may not be the same in all cases.
to even suggest the driver is responsible is foolish. that is the sign of a bad design. it's one thing to say a new technological artifact should change all the prior high-level learning and cause/effect low-level relationships your brain has trained itself up on, but to say a system is "smart" and adapts for driver style, but then doesn't deliver and the excuse that it is a driver style issue is just plain unjustifyable, just as it is unjustifyable to design a system that does collide with all that prior learning.
folks with the problem: you aren't driving your cars improperly. toyota wouldn't design these behaviors in and have it pass various engineering tollgates.
I am surprized how many problems people have with the new Toyotas. A new Camry was on my list of vehicles to seriously consider, but no more.
You've pretty much got the idea. If the driving duties aren't divided equally, the TCM will skew its shift characteristics proportionately toward the principle driver's habits. Does the transmission eventually correct the design error of Toyota? Since I got my license in the early 1950s I know what you mean about transmission band ajustments. I do not believe they have done that for 20 or 30 years.The 1989 Maxima that I gave to my grandson never had the bands adjusted and it still runs great. Maybe if I talk to him nicely he will trade me even for my 2007 Camry!! I don't think I will though because I want him to remain my friend.
Too many other variables to answer concisely. (and I'm no programmable transmission computer control expert) If the problem's truly a mechanical design consideration, "learning" might eventually be able compensate if the amount of compensation is within the mechanical parameters of the transmission to adjust. On the other hand, if the problem is merely an unforeseen software glitch, a firmware revision download into the TCM might be the remedy - though there conceivably could be some "relearning" time involved to fully realize the new programming's shift quality and general performance improvements.
When young engineers are designing their very first automatic transmission, you have to expect problems! Everything today is designed on a computer using computer programs. The young engineers do not have the knowledge or understanding to design any other way. They are no longer mechanical engineers in the true sense, who were trained in engineering theory, logic, common sense, and trial and error. The true car guys worked on their own cars as did a lot of car owners.
I recall helping my dad install new transmission bands in his 1923 Model T Ford. And, my first driving experiences were in the Model T. There were 3 fabric bands, as I recall. One for low, one for high, and one for reverse. If the bands stretched too much, you didn't "go". The bands had to be tightened. If you slipped them too much, you burned them out and new bands had to be installed. Many farmers and laborers installed their own, using logic and common sense and some instructions from the parts person.
If today's "engineers" do not understand how a transmission works, how are they going to fix it? That is the problem facing not only Toyota, but all the car companies.
not only is your prose appropos for the automotive industry, i suggest it extends to many other high-tech industries as well.
companies in their endless pursuit to make money for shareholders and the people at the top management ranks have allowed engineering to be dessimated, outsourced to low-cost countries while the experts that got them where they are retire.
the engineers who are left don't have the history or technical mentoring from those experts which are now gone, and the work outsourced is being done by those without proper training and even less access to that same critical expertise.
as if that weren't enough, many critical components and sub-systems are now designed and made not by the OEM, but by sourced firms. how does the OEM track and control the quality of something they did not design or build?
and those sourced firms, where is their labor and material comming from?
once upon a time, engineers were allowed to over-engineer a part such that lifing of that item was never a concern, even under the most demanding applications for the life of the product that contained it.
not anymore.
it's got some gingoistic name du jour that i can't seem to recall at the moment, but what has been de-valued in the automotive industry is being done so also in many high-tech / complex industries in the name of the almighty dollar.
and how does corporate management react when the output quality gulfs finally catch up to them? first they throw more managers at the problem... of course - someone has to track those defects and try to understand, then control processes that have gotten quite out of hand. then, they themselves move on to leave the mess to their successor.
Replying to: tmsusa (Aug 11, 2006 4:09 am)
I just want to add my thanks and profound respect for your presence in discussions about problems some are having with their Toyotas. Don't be discouraged or dissuaded by some negative reactions to your input. I don't believe this is representative of the majority of those of us who are interested but not participative onlookers. I know of no other automaker doing the same thing, at least on these kinds of forums, and it takes guts and bags of integrity to do so. . .
Thank. Your comments are appreciated.
#1098 of 1116 Re: .02 on the Camry Transmission issues [tmsusa] by jetjockg Aug 11, 2006 (7:39 am)
Replying to: tmsusa (Aug 11, 2006 5:21 am)
tmsusa -- I have two comments about your poorly worded reply. My 2007 Camry LE 4cyl. Hesitates and downshifts when not needed.If everything is OK according to Toyota why doesn't tmsusa acknowledge it and tell it's customers how to deal with it. The second comment is--if your transmission learns, how does it know when I an aggressive driver is driving or my wife, a slow poky driver is driving? Does it set the transmission somewhere in the middle? Your 800-331 4331 people will not talk to me any more after telling me nothing. So much for customer relations. Haven't you learned that to admit a problem sooner is better than later?
Thank you. Your comments are appreciated also. And I will agree that sometimes in my anxiousness to be straightforward and transparent on the part of Toyota, tmsusa chooses words that might not convey the level of concern we truly do have for those customers that have legitimate performance issues with their cars. You are one of them, and I regret coming across as insensitive to your issue with your 2007 Camry LE 4-cyl.
I will be happy to go back and look at your case history to understand a little more about the origin of your hesitation issues and to consult with our folks in CR and the technical group to see why we evidently have reached an impasses with your particular concerns.
But the point of responding to your post and to the one above is to illustrate that we most certainly are being more attentive to listening to the real world experiences with our customers and taking action to address real technical issues sooner than we've been able to do in the past. I think we're not hesitant to go public with a problem and admit an error. We're doing several "recalls" this year--That's certainly no secret. But in all cases, we've chosen to be upfront about it--publicize them more expansively by going to the web and getting the info out to our customers and consumers ASAP. Does that then contribute to a bit of media frenzy over the question of a crack in Toyota's long held quality reputation? Of course. But far better to let the media play around with that all they want then alienate our customers and others who look to Toyota for sound information about our products and company.
The snap ring issue on the Camry V6 07s might be one example of something new for us--addressing an unexpected and vexing technical problem in a sophisticated transmission head-on by going to the internet and talking about it in consumer-generated forums like this. Actually, I don't ever recall in my 20+ years with this organization a time when we thought it better to not disclose a problem. Witness the October 1989 recall of our 45-day old in the marketplace new luxury flagship LS400. Then we just did not have the capability to harness the internet and its viral capacity to communicate to new owners and others nearly instantaneously as we do today--so instead each of us in the new division picked up the phone and started calling . . .
Listen, we're far from perfect, and I am serious about appreciating your candid posts. I learn how to write with a greater degree of sensitivity and Toyota, the company that I represent by virtue of the tmsusa screen name, can gather additional feedback re the issues you describe and take the appropriate action.
Good luck if you were experiencing the Shift Flare issue, I hope having that TSB in hand helps.
~alpha
The 2006 Civic is quite a car..I'm sure you will enjoy it.
And some of the hesitation while you are driving I also think is the tranny doesnt no what gear it wants to be in. It takes it a second or two to figure it out. I think It is a very dangerous car but you have to learn how to drive it without making it dangerous for you and others but the car is a hazzard to the road and Toyota needs to except that it is and do something about it.
Cruise control I done even use anymore because it is uncomfortable and i think it is bad for the car to be doing 65 mph and spikeing at 5100 rpms for 20 seconds just to keep 65 so i stoped using it. But you will no if you have hesitation problems you will fill it. Also your car will not climp hills it will crawl up big hills unlesss you have speed going up the hill or start from a stop. Well i h ope this helps you out alittle good luck
How is the dealer going to help you? Are you trading your car in for a different model? Please keep us all informed and updated. At last a ray of hope!
I and many others have no hesitation problem.
My cruise control will unlock the torque converter and then downshift to 4th to maintain my set speed (as it should) and does not overshoot up steep hills.
I have no rattles, noises or interior gaps.
This is my first Toyota.
My XLE is quiet, well refined and gets great gas mileage.
This is impossible for any one person to know, unless you somehow surveyed thousands of '07 Camry I4 owners. Even if you took every post from every person on every Internet board dedicated to the '07 Camry, you'd still be looking at less than 1% of the car's owners.
http://www.carspace.com/edsam/.59aa7f94/">
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The car could have been damaged in transit, and was repaired by the dealer....someone screwed up and put on the wrong bumper.
Doug
thanks.
For the first 1K miles until broken in, I avoided even driving the car on interstates, taking one of our other cars instead. So once past the break in period, then started doing some interstate and 55MPH+ driving. First trip we took wife set the cruise control, and problem was immediately evident. Even on moderate interstate grades, the car will not hold the target speed with downshifting to 4th and sometimes to 3rd. When it downshifts to 3rd, the revs jump substantially. If you drive without cruise control and a soft gas pedal, you can easily avoid transmission shifts.
I would suspect if you took the brand new vehicle for an interstate test drive and traffic wasn't packed so you could use the cruise, it would be immediately evident. It didn't show in my case since I waited post 1K break in period before driving over 50.
This wasn't the best procedure to follow during breakin. Note that in your manual there is nothing there about 'babying' it until over 1000 mile. The only thing it does say is don't tow anything initially.
Actually the best procedure during the breakin period is just to drive normally; city, highway, stop and go, 75 mph+, both with and without cruise. The babying procedure may have exacerbated your subsequent problems.
I believe there is a difference between cars "Made in America" (even if this is a transplant car) and those made 100% (or close to that; like 95% parts from Japan), then those in the states of the same model. All vehicles made in Japan will have a VIN# beginning with a "J" rather then a 1 or 2. I bought a 2007 Toyota Camry and it was made in Japan. I love mine. When the dealer did a search and brought up some of the "available" models in the area, I seen the VIN# listed on the options printout. I picked the one with the "J". That doesn't mean there won't be a bad one in the bunch, but look in Consumer Reports. Seems the majority of the most reliable cars are those made ENTIRELY (or a good percentage of the parts) from Japan. Good Luck!
Drive gently and avoid high speeds. (Bold in the manual)
Your vehicle does not need an elaborate break-in. But following a few simple tips for the first 1600 km (1000 miles) can add to the future economy and long life of your vehicle:
- Avoid full throttle accelerations when starting and driving
- Avoid racing the engine
- Try to avoid hard stops during the first 300km (200 miles)
- Do not drive slowly with the manual transmission in a high gear
- Do not drive for a long time at any single speed, either fast or slow
- Do not tow a trailer during the first 800 km (500 miles)
I am aware of many differing opinions from all the different folks...as to the best way to break in engines, transmissions, and brakes. I've personally always broken in all my new cars by driving easy (except one Honda back in 1975), and have had extremely reliable high mileage vehicles. They run the full gamut of 4 cylinders to 8 cylinders, 2 seaters to 8 seaters, manuals/automatics, sports/luxury/trucks/vans/compacts/SUV's/etc.
The manual doesn't say anything that you can't baby the car initially, and I think anyone would be hard pressed to claim because we drove this in city traffic first 1k miles that it didn't break-in correctly. Again, the first line in manual w/Bold font......"Drive gently and avoid high speeds"