I didn't know the 2003's had a 5 speed automatic for the 4 cyl???????????
The cruise control is doing what it is supposed to do - maintain your desired speed!
You can't do it without shifting down going up a hill in 5th and neither can the cruise control.
At low rpm's (below 2500) in a 27% overdrive gear, the torque at the rear wheels is very low. You get a 400-500 rpm kick when the torque convertor unlocks but up a hill that is often not enough to maintain the desired set speed.
Try accelerating on level ground at 40 mph in 5th gear (1,500 rpm). The engine will lug and the transmission will shift down like it is supposed to.
Even 4th gear has a OD gear ratio.
The poor dealers. There are enough legitimate problems to deal with.
Great post, I tried to explain it myself a while back.
You can do a better job of keeping the car from downshifting if you cancel the cruise control on upgrades and allow the car to slow down a bit. If you do this at highway speeds on typical interstate upgrades, the car will downshift into fourth but not third.
Just one little nit: the torque is applied on the drive wheels, which happen to be the front ones on this front-drive car.
Righto! I must have been driving in reverse when I was posting or out in my Sunbeam Tiger.
I've gone up interstate hills set on cruise with 4 occupants and 4 sets of golf bags at 65-77 mph and never had it shift into 3rd, 4th yes. And I still got an indicated 32.1 mpg (1-2 mpg higher than actual).
My wife and I purchased a 2007 camry LE 4cyl.in april. Since then it has been to service dept. three times for vibrations. It seems the faster you go the worst it gets. I too got the old (Thats normal) routine. Anyone else out there having this problem. After months of fighting with toyota we are now going through arbitration. Its very sad to see a company like this produce a product like this and then not stand behind it. I assume this car is supposed to be smooth. Let me know. Thanks marjoe11
We have the same problems that you state you have with your 2007 Camry. We traded in a wonderful 2004 Camry 4 cyl for this 2007. From the beginning, we realized that it was one of the biggest auto mistakes we have ever made. The car hesitates and jerks into gears, not knowing where it should be. Downshifts for for even a bump in the read, or if you take your foot slightly off the pedal going around a corner. We took it to the dealer; after they looked at us like we were nuts, they told us all this is "normal". I think that they think we fell of the turnip truck. This is also our third Toyota Camry and I might add the last. Only hope we can unload it sooner than later.
Speed sensitive vibration might be nothing more than one or more improperly balanced tires. Bad tires happen, too. Has the dealer checked either of those possibilities?
you're not the first person to use the "fell off the turnip truck" when confronted by blank stares or disinformation.
your new vehicle's performance should be every thing your 2004 was (and your other camry - model year?) and much more and they know this.
rpm flaring and cruise control initiated gear hunting is indicative of two good engineering problems they're dishing out for you with this model - they should be paying you as you are their test subjects.
moving forward: maybe there needs to be a coordinated effort amongst the owners affected to bring fresh turnips to your local toyota dealership as a sign of your dissatisfaction with their product, service and support. just lay them up on the desk of the first service writer to approach you.
WHEN GOING UPHILL WITH THE CRUISE CONTROL ON IT IS ON UNUSUAL FOR A TRANSMISSION TO DOWNSHIFT, OTHERWISE YOUR ENGINE IS GOING TO LUG. THAT IS ESPECIALLY TRUE OF SMALL 4 CYLINDER ENGINE THAT LACKS LOW RPM TORQUE. A 5 SPEED AUTOMATIC REVS LOWER THAN A 4 SPEED AUTOMATIC IN THE CAMRY. AT 65 MPH THE 4 SPEED AUTO IS TURNING ABOUT 2400 RPM VS 2000 RPM FOR THE 5 SPEED. THE RESULT IS A QUIETER RIDE AND BETTER FUEL ECONOMY. BUT WHEN YOU ARE GOING UPHILL AT THE SAME SPEED, IT IS MUCH MORE LIKELY THAT THE CAR EQUIPPED WITH THE 5 SPEED WOULD NEED TO DOWNSHIFT TO MAINTAIN SPEED COMPARE TO THE 4 SPEED BECAUSE IT IS REVVING LOWER AND PRODUCING LESS TORQUE. NOW IF YOU ARE GOING TO SAY THAT IS A PROBLEM WITH THE CAR THEN YOU ARE FLAT OUT WRONG. IF PEOPLE THINK THEY CAN SUE TOYOTA OR ANY OTHER AUTOMAKER ON SUCH FLIMSY BASIS AND WIN THEN THEY ARE SMOKING SOMETHING ILLEGAL. IF THEY DON'T LIKE THE TRANSMISSIONS SHIFT QUALITY AND FEEL THEIR ARE BETTER ALTERNATIVE, THEN THE BEST THING WOULD BE TO SELL THEIR CAR AND BUY ONE OF THOSE GM CARS WITH THEIR ANTIQUATED 4 SPEED AUTO. GOD KNOWS GM NEEDS NEW CUSTOMERS BADLY.
i agree, if the gearing is such you have to downshift, then once is ok, but you don't hunt, and people are complaining of some rather chaotic behavior in the cruise control.
besides SHOUTING, you're extrapolating to sue the company. i'm merely suggesting a visual aid to make the point the consumer is a good deal more intellegent and deserving of support of the company that bets their business on product quality.
Are you an expert on Toyota transmission ? I see you on just about every Toyota/Lexus problem board even though it seems like you don't own any Toyota or Lexus product. Judging by your posts, it seems like you have a bone to pick with Toyota Motors. While I don't consider myself a Toyota defender by any means and they have quality issues like any other automakers, it seems like a lot of the so called WOES are normal characteristic of the car. Just because a certain person don't like how the car drives or shifts doesn't make it a bad car.
I suspect you may have a point. I have just joined, and am seriously considering a new Camry but did my homework beforehand by going over a number of Toyota/Lexus forums. Don't know of or know anyone with any of the reported problems and I'm wondering why someone with no relevant ownership experience would be so vocal.
One could argue (as I guess Toyota has), that the cruise control isn't "broke", and technically speaking they're right...... the cruise control is holding the set cruise speed. However from a usability point of view, IMO it's crossed over into a nuisance category, particularly when it shifts way down to 3rd, engine speed (and noise) increase substantially, and the car feels like it leaps forward with the added power. (It woke me up, first time wife used the cruise control). I don't remember any car I've owned or driven in 40 years, that has been this bad. Unfortunately and shame on me, I was not able to use the cruise control on the 4cyl test drive because of time of day traffic. If I had, I don't think I would have bought the car (and would have bought the 6 cyl....OMG).
I don't know how the 2006 was, which is supposedly the same engine/tranny combo and reportedly doesn't have this problem, but it may be any number of changes which cause the 2007 problem. It could something consuming HP, like added weight, wind resistance, alternator or air conditioner pump drag, different tire resistance, etc. Only the Toyota engineers would really know (or be able to figure out) what the root cause of the problem is.
It does not take much of a "hill" on the interstate to cause this 'usability' problem to surface (at least in my LE-I4), even a gentle long rise will do it. Since I can avoid downshifts by driving gently without cruise, I don't believe it would take much tweaking with some software somewhere (assuming it's adjustable in the software), to make this better. Personally I'd rather have the cruise be not soo exacting, drop 2-3 mph on an upgrade, and stay locked in 5th gear......than the alternative that it is right now, where it will stay exactly on target speed, by radically downshifting. If I want to keep the speed up for some reason, could easily apply a little throttle with the gas pedal and trigger a downshift.
On the other hand, I'm sure there are folks who would consider the cruise speed dropping by 3 mph as a defect failure...and be happier with the way it is.
TMSUSA if you still exist.....How about coming out with a software tweak, making the cruise less exacting, if the owner requests it?
It might take a mountain pass for my '07 XLE 4 cyl. to shift down to 3rd gear in cruise control.
What RPM and speed was your 3rd gear experience????????
Maybe you are mistaking it for 4th gear.
I don't believe you can maintain a set speed up a hill (in 5th gear) by driving gently. You will have to let up on the go pedal (or the transmission will shift out of 5th) and then you will slow down and continue to slow until the crest of the hill.
I have not even used the cruise control on my 2007 Camry. These gear hunting, down shifting and hesitation problems are happening on almost level roads; no coasting here! Back and forth, back and forth, it is a wonder that you can get any miles per gallon. Their "new, improved" 5 speed transmission needs to be improved. I think if Toyota wants a five speed transmission on a 4 cyl engine they need to First test to see if the 4 cyl can make the grade (no pun intended). Also, who said we were thinking of getting any compensation from Toyota...fat chance that would ever happen. These problems are all normal functions for the new, computer driven, improved, 4 cyl 5 speed automatic transmission, look... what a smooth ride!
70 mph is typically the cruising speed we use weekly now, across I-40 in NC. It's all relatively flat, have driven same trip with 3 other vehicles, none downshift even once. (But all others are either 6 or 8 cyls, and get much lower mpg which is why we're driving the camry now).
Definitely dropping to third. Easy to see the differences when the torque converter unlocks, when it downshifts to 4th, and then in the situations when it deep downshifts to 3rd, where rpms will jump up easily to 4-5K range.
i personally don't know anyone with the hesitation or gear hunting / rpm flaring issue either. every report in the positive and negative w.r.t. the issue exists or the issue does not exist in their vehicles - i personally hold both reports equally valid.
long ago in another forum, one of my first posts on the hesitation issue suggested (because some people experienced hesitation and others not) that there was a good possibility of slop or other non-linearity in either the accelerator pedal assembly/sensor or the throttle position assembly/sensor in the problem cars.
i suggested how that theory could be proved / disproved.
the fact that in the year and a half since that time some people have noted marked improvement in operability by re-positioning their foot on the pedal is enough evidence for this control systems engineer.
besides being a practicing EE in the controls field, i have a good background in human factors engineering. when people say their safety is impacted, i can understand why this is so. there is no reason to refute that.
the turnip suggestion is / was meant to be fallacious, just as the "this is normal" mantra is fallacious.
i used to own a toyota that was trouble free for almost a decade. i remember what toyota quality means.
there appears a legit problem here with the DBW implementations which spans numerous models. maybe it's software, maybe it's hardware, maybe its design, or parts quality control; who knows.
when some say it happens, and some say not, and some say it didn't exist and now it does, what can one conclude definitively?
shall we blame the driver? i think not.
we should take notice of this though and challenge a manufacturer rep's assertion it is per design.
if you are an engineer and you believe the assertion - that is your right to conclude so - i just don't want you designing my next vehicle.
All the tires and rims have been checked and ballanced 3 times. one tire has been replaced so far. One dealer says it may be the alloy wheels the other says its a tire. also was told, We can balance all day long but it won't change. Different story depending on what dealer you go to. The only thing missing from this car is were you put the quarter in to get your massage. End of my rope with this car.
Sorry to hear about your problems. My mother's LE-V6 was built in April also and I'm hoping that she doesn't run into transmission problems. I asked to have the car ordered in mid-May when I put the deposit down and the car "arrived" 6 weeks later having been built in April.
Why don't you ask the dealer, to borrow a set of wheels and tires from another vehicle to put on your car as a test. That would definitely confirm or exclude the wheels/tires as the problem, and wouldn't be hard to do.
Vibration goes away, put two of the originals back on to begin figuring out which one(s) are bad.
Kiawah, yes, you DO have the problem. Just like I do and a number of others who have posted here and elsewhere.
And the torque generated by the I4 at 2000rpm is about 143 vs 146 at 2400 rpm, which is essentially the same. My 03 I4 would never come out of lockup or downshift when going up a hill at at 2000rpm, or 1800rpm, or 2400rpm, or 2800rpm. And the transmission does go to third - and frequently hunts up and down as the car overshoots and undershoots the set speed.
I'm really tired of people posting on this forum and making smartass remarks about those of us who have the issue, when they do NOT have the issue - or even an 07 I4 Camry. I am certainly open to helpful advice or questions that may help clarify exactly what a poster is descibing, but I don't like the statements that indicate we don't know how to drive or understand how a car operates.
Oh, still haven't heard from TMSUSA on the question asked a few days ago on this issue. HHMMMM! Wonder why???
A little bit of help might have saved them from arbitration. It seems like the same old thing. Trying to get out of doing anymore work then they have to.
I have an '05 Camry 4-cyl. 5A. When ascending grades at 65 mph, it will readily downshift to 4th if the cruise is on, and if the upgrade is steep enough (on interstates in the Appalachians), it will downshift to 3rd to maintain an even speed. Then it may upshift back to 4th.
What I do in this situation is disengage the cruise and use my right foot to modulate the throttle, keeping the car out of 3rd gear. Yes, I slow down a little. I never thought of the situation as being abnormal.
Once on a much steeper grade at a slower speed (US 40 east of Uniontown, PA), the car did exhibit the hunting behavior - alternating between 3rd and 4th - but again, I simply disengaged the cruise.
I do think some (many?) people would find it objectionable when using cruise for the car to lose 2-3 mph (or more) on upgrades. Therefore, on a rather small 4-cylinder engine, the transmission will have to downshift one or more gears to maintain a constant speed.
Let's face it -- more gears means more shifting, especially for a smaller engine. Do we really want to return to the old 3-speeds (or 2-speed Powerglides) and lose the advantages of fuel efficiency and engine quietness?
OTOH, a 500-horsepower Hemi V8 in an unloaded Dodge Ram pickup probably doesn't have to downshift much going up a hill!
The '03 4 speed automatic had a 4th gear ratio of 1.02 which is not even 1:1. The final drive was 2.74.
The '07 5 speed automatic has a 5th gear ratio of .703, a 4th gear ratio of .975, and a final drive of 3.391.
So with the same tire size, the '07 in 5th has 15% less effective torque than the '03 in 4th. The '07 in 4th has 18% more effective torque than the '03 in 4th.
But the '07 tire size increased over the '03 also I believe, which lowers the engine rpm at any given speed which lowers the effective torque also.
And the electronic controls have surely changed!!!
My trans. does not shift to 3rd in cruise and does not overshoot/undershoot the set speed. It works great!
On the tire size, the '02-'06 LE used 205/65R15 and the XLE used 215/60R16. Now, all but the SE use 215/60R16. The larger tire/wheel has only a slightly greater overall diameter than the smaller one.
No problem. I just found it odd that someone not having experienced any of this or even having ownership of a Toyota would be so involved as to appear to be campaigning against the manufacturer. That was my impression. As I said, I am a newcomer looking over all Toyota forums to see what people are talking about these days. I hope to trade in our 2K Avalon soon, and the Camry is one of two possibilities--another Avalon is an alternate. So far I have test driven both at least 5 times with different models each time. All seemed OK with no evidence of any of the reported hesitation or spiking. I have spoken with a number of people at work and in our social circle about their Camry experiences and none have ever complained about any of this. All said and done I don't think there's much of a risk and will be making a deal within the next days on a Camry. Will try to keep current in this forum re my experiences.
definitely, i am not campaigning against any particular manufacturer. i'm interested in the control problem and the human factors / safety aspects of DBW, but also authority taken by other automation for safety features like ABS, Traction Control, Stability control and other "creature/cabin" features / preferences and functions. the manufacturer doesn't matter.
you are probably aware a few people posting in the forums, perhaps avalon p+s had indicated no perceptable hesitation when they initially purchased their vehicle - and then they started experiencing it after a period of ownership.
perhaps they were not very sensitive to the issue during the test drive (we can be distracted by a salesman even when we aren't behind the wheel). for minor cases, i'm sure that explaination fits.
for more significant hesitation - there is an aspect of the intellegent transmission design that is supposidly mapping the driver's style which may be spooling up parameters in ECU / TCM memory as one drives. disconnecting the battery has been something attempted by some dealerships and owners to reset the learned parameters with mixed results.
my personal opinion, and i'm going out on a limb here: the vehicle would have to classify a driver pretty early, i.e. in the short-term... if not then switching drivers would be very problematic, and i cannot conceive of any engineer designing an adaptive transmission that didn't accomodate a driver switch which is likely on a day to day basis.
instead, since we've seen issues with placement of the driver's foot on the pedal, i suspect (anyone shoot me down) the issue may be as simple as slop in the mechanicals or sensing in the accelerator pedal or throttle position sensor. it may be an issue at initial purchase, or for those experiencing the problem later, an issue which develops over time with one of the assemblies... perhaps the "zero" calibration of the sensors becomes affected by slop / non-linearity, wear.
there was one poster who stiffened some aspect of the accelerator pedal assembly with good results initially, that degraded...
this is why ultimately, i believe it is both a mechanical/electrical issue with one of the assemblies coupled with the adaptive learning logic or some programming of the ECU/TCM.
i'm sorry to be winded here, but my aim is true. people are not imagining the problem, and some have the issue worse than others apparently.
my theory accomodates all the observations from those claiming great responsiveness and no problem, to those indicating an annoyance, to those questioning their safety in the vehicle.
Just to add to user777's comments, this forum is about "woes," so you're going to see a high percentage of people with problems. Satisfied owners will for the most part not be posting here.
Your poll of co-workers and friends backs up my contention. In any case, to use Reagan's words, "trust, but verify." Test drive the heck out of the actual car you're going to purchase, BEFORE you plunk down your money.
Way back in 1978 I bought an Oldsmobile which my wife, daughter and my parents took across country on a family reunion vacation. At freeway cruising speeds, the car had a terrible vibration. I stopped at six Goodyear service centers but no one could solve the problem except to say something in my car's powertrain was out of balance since the tires were properly balanced. Finally I stopped at a combination farm implements/GM dealership in a small Kentucky town for help. They had the problem diagnosed in thirty-five minutes. With the car on a lift, elevated just enough to get the wheels off the shop floor, and with the engine running and the transmission in "Drive" one of the rear tires was exhibiting a tread squirm. Apparently the tread belts had shifted in the tire casing. Once the offending tire was replaced, the car rode properly thereafter.
(That Kentucky dealership refused to accept so much as a dime - amazing what with my California plates, 4:55 P.M. when I rolled in, and on a Friday. I couldn't have been treated more nicely had I been the dealership owner's kid.)
If I want to know what's out there, a "woes" forum is the place, or so I thought. Made sense at the time. Appreciate the advice tho'. FYI, I always drive the heck out of all test drives--at least an hour or more each time. Normally, I will also go for a long drive with the sales guy aboard after making the deal but before closing, just to make doubly sure everything is as it should be. Any previously undiscvered snags get attended to before money changes hands. Never been fooled yet. So far I haven't had the experiences being reported here in any of the test drives to date. Will probably do one or two more before deciding by the weekend. As much as the general thread of this discussion is, basically, don't buy one, I don't think there's that big of a problem, certainly not widespread anyway, and risk of getting one with those type of problems is pretty slim. I believe my chosen purchasing technique will rule out what little risk there there might be. Ciao.
Since my last post, Toyota contacted my dealer "AGAIN" and informed them that it was time to replace the transmission. The funny thing is....before the replaced valve body (which occurred on my last visit (fourth time in the shop)), my car only spiked between 3rd and 4th gears. Since the replacement, the car now spikes between 1st and 2nd, 3rd and 4th, and 5th and 6th. Great fix, huh??? Toyota didn't believe the service manager, so I actually had to bring the car back in, so the service manager could drive it (for the second time) and confirm that what he (the service manager) reported was true.
Anyway, the transmission has come in, we're now waiting on the transmission fluid to arrive, and then they'll replace it.
BTW, all of this took place right before I filed my Lemon Law papers, so that now has been put on hold. :lemon:
Actually, you are shortchanging yourself if you are only participating in this discussion. Toyota Camry - 2007+ and the other discussions listed on the Camry board should be of great help to you as you make your decision. What you are reading here is only a part of the picture.
Ummm, you are a little confused here. The '07 in 5th DOES NOT have 15% less effective torque than the '03 in 4th at the same rpm. BOTH the ‘03 and the ‘07 have 10-15% less effective torque at the driven wheels as compared to the crank at any given rpm due to drive train loss. My statement to Kiawah, “the torque generated by the I4 at 2000rpm is about 143 vs. 146 at 2400 rpm, which is essentially the same”, was referring to power produced by the engine ignoring losses. The variation from crank to wheel doesn’t matter as there is very little difference between the torque outputs of the ’03 at 2400rpm and the ’07 at 2000rpm. It is the delivered torque that matters.
I’ll be posting my comments on doing a comparison test drive of multiple ’07 Camry I4 5ATs tomorrow.
Picked up new 07 Camry LE with sunroof on July 9 and drove 75 miles home. We noticed a squeak in the pillar behind drivers ear so it went back on 12th. Came home on 15th with an additional squeak in rear. Back to dealer on 18th and still there. The service department has verified the squeaks but are having trouble finding and fixing. It sounds like a body panel is flexing. Is anybody else having this problem? How long should we wait before complaining to Toyota?
I'm talking about the multiplied torque comparison through the different trans/diff ratios at the drive axle. Maybe that is over your head??
Since you seem to think this is over my head, you might take a look at my sign-on name - that might give you a tiny clue as to what I know about torque/horsepower comparisons. Nuff said...
What we're both talking about here is rather simple. Torque delivered to the drive wheels at a specific rpm. That is even what you said in the first line of your first reply (#865) to me on this subject. Changes to gear/diff ratios and the diameter of tires affect speed at at a given rpm, so, at 65mph we have 2000rpm on the '07 and 2400rpm on the '04 and the torque difference is only 3 ftlb. Where we '07 owners get hurt bad is the HP output at 65mph as the '04 is putting out 68 vs only 54 for the 07 - OUCH!!! Very steep curve and I just really noticed it - DUH!!
I got my 2007 Camry LE the end of March and have 2500 miles. I have experienced the exact same problems as you. The dealer, district rep, and Toyota refuse to admit a problem. If you take your car to a dealer they will not write up the repair ticket stating the real problem. Then when Toyota calls to confirm what you stated was wrong with the car the dealer says that the car was never serviced.Then Toyota closes the case. I am beginning to feel like I did after Pearl Harbor!
Comments
The cruise control is doing what it is supposed to do - maintain your desired speed!
You can't do it without shifting down going up a hill in 5th and neither can the cruise control.
At low rpm's (below 2500) in a 27% overdrive gear, the torque at the rear wheels is very low. You get a 400-500 rpm kick when the torque convertor unlocks but up a hill that is often not enough to maintain the desired set speed.
Try accelerating on level ground at 40 mph in 5th gear (1,500 rpm). The engine will lug and the transmission will shift down like it is supposed to.
Even 4th gear has a OD gear ratio.
The poor dealers. There are enough legitimate problems to deal with.
Black absorbs more heat, but it releases it faster than white.
You can do a better job of keeping the car from downshifting if you cancel the cruise control on upgrades and allow the car to slow down a bit. If you do this at highway speeds on typical interstate upgrades, the car will downshift into fourth but not third.
Just one little nit: the torque is applied on the drive wheels, which happen to be the front ones on this front-drive car.
I've gone up interstate hills set on cruise with 4 occupants and 4 sets of golf bags at 65-77 mph and never had it shift into 3rd, 4th yes. And I still got an indicated 32.1 mpg (1-2 mpg higher than actual).
I too got the old (Thats normal) routine. Anyone else out there having this problem. After months of fighting with toyota we are now going through arbitration. Its very sad to see a company like this produce a product like this and then not stand behind it. I assume this car is supposed to be smooth. Let me know. Thanks
marjoe11
your new vehicle's performance should be every thing your 2004 was (and your other camry - model year?) and much more and they know this.
rpm flaring and cruise control initiated gear hunting is indicative of two good engineering problems they're dishing out for you with this model - they should be paying you as you are their test subjects.
moving forward: maybe there needs to be a coordinated effort amongst the owners affected to bring fresh turnips to your local toyota dealership as a sign of your dissatisfaction with their product, service and support. just lay them up on the desk of the first service writer to approach you.
besides SHOUTING, you're extrapolating to sue the company. i'm merely suggesting a visual aid to make the point the consumer is a good deal more intellegent and deserving of support of the company that bets their business on product quality.
I don't know how the 2006 was, which is supposedly the same engine/tranny combo and reportedly doesn't have this problem, but it may be any number of changes which cause the 2007 problem. It could something consuming HP, like added weight, wind resistance, alternator or air conditioner pump drag, different tire resistance, etc. Only the Toyota engineers would really know (or be able to figure out) what the root cause of the problem is.
It does not take much of a "hill" on the interstate to cause this 'usability' problem to surface (at least in my LE-I4), even a gentle long rise will do it. Since I can avoid downshifts by driving gently without cruise, I don't believe it would take much tweaking with some software somewhere (assuming it's adjustable in the software), to make this better. Personally I'd rather have the cruise be not soo exacting, drop 2-3 mph on an upgrade, and stay locked in 5th gear......than the alternative that it is right now, where it will stay exactly on target speed, by radically downshifting. If I want to keep the speed up for some reason, could easily apply a little throttle with the gas pedal and trigger a downshift.
On the other hand, I'm sure there are folks who would consider the cruise speed dropping by 3 mph as a defect failure...and be happier with the way it is.
TMSUSA if you still exist.....How about coming out with a software tweak, making the cruise less exacting, if the owner requests it?
What RPM and speed was your 3rd gear experience????????
Maybe you are mistaking it for 4th gear.
I don't believe you can maintain a set speed up a hill (in 5th gear) by driving gently. You will have to let up on the go pedal (or the transmission will shift out of 5th) and then you will slow down and continue to slow until the crest of the hill.
Definitely dropping to third. Easy to see the differences when the torque converter unlocks, when it downshifts to 4th, and then in the situations when it deep downshifts to 3rd, where rpms will jump up easily to 4-5K range.
long ago in another forum, one of my first posts on the hesitation issue suggested (because some people experienced hesitation and others not) that there was a good possibility of slop or other non-linearity in either the accelerator pedal assembly/sensor or the throttle position assembly/sensor in the problem cars.
i suggested how that theory could be proved / disproved.
the fact that in the year and a half since that time some people have noted marked improvement in operability by re-positioning their foot on the pedal is enough evidence for this control systems engineer.
besides being a practicing EE in the controls field, i have a good background in human factors engineering. when people say their safety is impacted, i can understand why this is so. there is no reason to refute that.
the turnip suggestion is / was meant to be fallacious, just as the "this is normal" mantra is fallacious.
i used to own a toyota that was trouble free for almost a decade. i remember what toyota quality means.
there appears a legit problem here with the DBW implementations which spans numerous models. maybe it's software, maybe it's hardware, maybe its design, or parts quality control; who knows.
when some say it happens, and some say not, and some say it didn't exist and now it does, what can one conclude definitively?
shall we blame the driver? i think not.
we should take notice of this though and challenge a manufacturer rep's assertion it is per design.
if you are an engineer and you believe the assertion - that is your right to conclude so - i just don't want you designing my next vehicle.
End of my rope with this car.
Do you have a US made Camry?
3rd gear s/b about 4,400 rpm at 70 mph.
Vibration goes away, put two of the originals back on to begin figuring out which one(s) are bad.
And the torque generated by the I4 at 2000rpm is about 143 vs 146 at 2400 rpm, which is essentially the same. My 03 I4 would never come out of lockup or downshift when going up a hill at at 2000rpm, or 1800rpm, or 2400rpm, or 2800rpm. And the transmission does go to third - and frequently hunts up and down as the car overshoots and undershoots the set speed.
I'm really tired of people posting on this forum and making smartass remarks about those of us who have the issue, when they do NOT have the issue - or even an 07 I4 Camry. I am certainly open to helpful advice or questions that may help clarify exactly what a poster is descibing, but I don't like the statements that indicate we don't know how to drive or understand how a car operates.
Oh, still haven't heard from TMSUSA on the question asked a few days ago on this issue. HHMMMM! Wonder why???
It seems like the same old thing. Trying to get out of doing anymore work then they have to.
What I do in this situation is disengage the cruise and use my right foot to modulate the throttle, keeping the car out of 3rd gear. Yes, I slow down a little. I never thought of the situation as being abnormal.
Once on a much steeper grade at a slower speed (US 40 east of Uniontown, PA), the car did exhibit the hunting behavior - alternating between 3rd and 4th - but again, I simply disengaged the cruise.
I do think some (many?) people would find it objectionable when using cruise for the car to lose 2-3 mph (or more) on upgrades. Therefore, on a rather small 4-cylinder engine, the transmission will have to downshift one or more gears to maintain a constant speed.
Let's face it -- more gears means more shifting, especially for a smaller engine. Do we really want to return to the old 3-speeds (or 2-speed Powerglides) and lose the advantages of fuel efficiency and engine quietness?
OTOH, a 500-horsepower Hemi V8 in an unloaded Dodge Ram pickup probably doesn't have to downshift much going up a hill!
The engine is basically the same as the '03 I4.
The '03 4 speed automatic had a 4th gear ratio of 1.02 which is not even 1:1. The final drive was 2.74.
The '07 5 speed automatic has a 5th gear ratio of .703, a 4th gear ratio of .975, and a final drive of 3.391.
So with the same tire size, the '07 in 5th has 15% less effective torque than the '03 in 4th. The '07 in 4th has 18% more effective torque than the '03 in 4th.
But the '07 tire size increased over the '03 also I believe, which lowers the engine rpm at any given speed which lowers the effective torque also.
And the electronic controls have surely changed!!!
My trans. does not shift to 3rd in cruise and does not overshoot/undershoot the set speed. It works great!
On the tire size, the '02-'06 LE used 205/65R15 and the XLE used 215/60R16. Now, all but the SE use 215/60R16. The larger tire/wheel has only a slightly greater overall diameter than the smaller one.
As I said, I am a newcomer looking over all Toyota forums to see what people are talking about these days. I hope to trade in our 2K Avalon soon, and the Camry is one of two possibilities--another Avalon is an alternate. So far I have test driven both at least 5 times with different models each time. All seemed OK with no evidence of any of the reported hesitation or spiking. I have spoken with a number of people at work and in our social circle about their Camry experiences and none have ever complained about any of this.
All said and done I don't think there's much of a risk and will be making a deal within the next days on a Camry. Will try to keep current in this forum re my experiences.
you are probably aware a few people posting in the forums, perhaps avalon p+s had indicated no perceptable hesitation when they initially purchased their vehicle - and then they started experiencing it after a period of ownership.
perhaps they were not very sensitive to the issue during the test drive (we can be distracted by a salesman even when we aren't behind the wheel). for minor cases, i'm sure that explaination fits.
for more significant hesitation - there is an aspect of the intellegent transmission design that is supposidly mapping the driver's style which may be spooling up parameters in ECU / TCM memory as one drives. disconnecting the battery has been something attempted by some dealerships and owners to reset the learned parameters with mixed results.
my personal opinion, and i'm going out on a limb here: the vehicle would have to classify a driver pretty early, i.e. in the short-term... if not then switching drivers would be very problematic, and i cannot conceive of any engineer designing an adaptive transmission that didn't accomodate a driver switch which is likely on a day to day basis.
instead, since we've seen issues with placement of the driver's foot on the pedal, i suspect (anyone shoot me down) the issue may be as simple as slop in the mechanicals or sensing in the accelerator pedal or throttle position sensor. it may be an issue at initial purchase, or for those experiencing the problem later, an issue which develops over time with one of the assemblies... perhaps the "zero" calibration of the sensors becomes affected by slop / non-linearity, wear.
there was one poster who stiffened some aspect of the accelerator pedal assembly with good results initially, that degraded...
this is why ultimately, i believe it is both a mechanical/electrical issue with one of the assemblies coupled with the adaptive learning logic or some programming of the ECU/TCM.
i'm sorry to be winded here, but my aim is true. people are not imagining the problem, and some have the issue worse than others apparently.
my theory accomodates all the observations from those claiming great responsiveness and no problem, to those indicating an annoyance, to those questioning their safety in the vehicle.
i hope it helps you.
Your poll of co-workers and friends backs up my contention. In any case, to use Reagan's words, "trust, but verify." Test drive the heck out of the actual car you're going to purchase, BEFORE you plunk down your money.
(That Kentucky dealership refused to accept so much as a dime - amazing what with my California plates, 4:55 P.M. when I rolled in, and on a Friday. I couldn't have been treated more nicely had I been the dealership owner's kid.)
So far I haven't had the experiences being reported here in any of the test drives to date. Will probably do one or two more before deciding by the weekend.
As much as the general thread of this discussion is, basically, don't buy one, I don't think there's that big of a problem, certainly not widespread anyway, and risk of getting one with those type of problems is pretty slim.
I believe my chosen purchasing technique will rule out what little risk there there might be.
Ciao.
Anyway, the transmission has come in, we're now waiting on the transmission fluid to arrive, and then they'll replace it.
BTW, all of this took place right before I filed my Lemon Law papers, so that now has been put on hold. :lemon:
I’ll be posting my comments on doing a comparison test drive of multiple ’07 Camry I4 5ATs tomorrow.
They both have drive train losses.
Back to dealer on 18th and still there.
The service department has verified the squeaks but are having trouble finding and fixing. It sounds like a body panel is flexing.
Is anybody else having this problem?
How long should we wait before complaining to Toyota?
Since you seem to think this is over my head, you might take a look at my sign-on name - that might give you a tiny clue as to what I know about torque/horsepower comparisons. Nuff said...
What we're both talking about here is rather simple. Torque delivered to the drive wheels at a specific rpm. That is even what you said in the first line of your first reply (#865) to me on this subject. Changes to gear/diff ratios and the diameter of tires affect speed at at a given rpm, so, at 65mph we have 2000rpm on the '07 and 2400rpm on the '04 and the torque difference is only 3 ftlb. Where we '07 owners get hurt bad is the HP output at 65mph as the '04 is putting out 68 vs only 54 for the 07 - OUCH!!! Very steep curve and I just really noticed it - DUH!!
I'll still be posting on my comparo later today.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
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I have used it for .jpg type images. I have not done .gif. I hope that works both ways.
Good luck posting it for us. If it doesn't work you can always edit your post or delete it and try again later.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That is not correct. He is one person, the same person who has been posting in Camry discussions here for a number of months now.