Yes Doc, that's really good news. Because according to the JD Power stats, both the IS and GS are helping Lexus to bring down the average owner age MORE THAN THEIR CLASS COMPETITORS. If I am not mistaken, that's exactly what Lexus was trying to do with these 2 vehicles.
That's the only beef I have with Toyota/Lexus. They are just way market-driven so often (if not all the time) that they'll overlook those enthusiasts. Granted it's not like if they offer the IS350 with manual the sales will increase by much (probably less than 100 units per month) but with that the brand will gain a much needed reputation booster.
Trust me Doc, the majority of those manual 3-series owners will find something wrong with the IS350. Usually a manual BMW owner is a hardcore BMW owner and it's hard to lure those into a Lexus dealership. BMW aside, how many Infiniti, Acura or even Audi are being sold with manual tranny?
If I am running Lexus I would definitely offer manual tranny across the IS, GS and SC line. However, since I understand why Lexus does this I won't fault them for not to.
Hey Doc, since we are on G35, you should check out how the Edmunds long term G35 has been knocked on about the poor performance of its manual tranny. One editor even said it straight out that get the automatic instead. Also, this was not from some junior editor, this was from Scott Oldham, Inside Line Editor-in-Chief. :surprise:
As for the IS350, it's not just fast and small, it's also more comfortable for the driver and front seat passenger. My car has been in the body shop for almost 2 weeks now, I can't describe how much I miss my car while driving the rental.
Lexus now fears that it will be a one-generation wonder with baby boomers. “When we look at the luxury market in 10 years, it’s going to change so dramatically,” said former Lexus General Manager Jim Farley.
Thosse ownership statistics you have provided are useless since most young people who want a Lexus or a BMW dont own a Lexus or BMW.
Jim Farley knows a bit more than those stats you have posted here. He knows through focus groups and internal research that younger people who are not necessarily luxury car owners yet are bigger fans of BMW than Lexus.
The future belongs to BMW because once these youngsters mature and their wallets get fatter they will buy the car they have always wanted: And it aint gonna be a Lexus.
The younger generations are interested in "road feel" and "thrills" AND not CR surveys, comfort and sound proof mobile chambers. Unlike their aging baby boomer parents.
The Pepsi generationt ,the BMW generation and the Facebook generation are younger than the Lexus and Fax Machine generation. And that is not good for Lexus.
And whose to say there will not be a BMW hybrid. A BMW clean diesel or even biodiesel. A BMW diesel-hybrid. Or more models like the hyrdrogen BMW 7 Series.
Dewey, I am not sure how old are you but maybe you are not in the right position to comment about what the younger generations are interested in. I am 25 and just finished my master a little over a year ago, should be the prime target for both BMW and Lexus. I guess by now you know what I drive and I can tell you this, there are many who think like me then you've ever imaging. This younger generation isn't the same as yours, "road feel" and "thrills" don't excite us anymore. Many of my peers are looking for maturity, elegance and comfortable rides.
BMW to us is way overpriced. A few of my friends who like "road feel" are choosing Infiniti instead. This generation doesn't believe in "German is the best" myth because we grew up under the influence of Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infiniti and Honda/Acura. BMW and MB IMO are the one who should be worrying. For those who have rich parents they probably will choose BMW and MB because they don't have to pay for it. But for us hard working young professionals/executives the [non-permissible content removed] luxury is a much wiser decision.
And whose to say there will not be a BMW hybrid. A BMW clean diesel or even biodiesel. A BMW diesel-hybrid. Or more models like the hyrdrogen BMW 7 Series.
Thanks, Dewey... I must have lost my way momentarily... but thank goodness you were there in the blink of an eye!
How on earth can a hybrid Lexus GS be more reliable than a GS? Does an additional electrical motor and added complexity make a car more reliable?
NONSENSE!!!
You your head, buddy. When's the last time you had an electric motor fail? Or a battery (other than normal discharge)? In my house, we had the electric motor in one of our furnaces go....9 years after being installed, and having received zero maintenance (it was supposed to have been lubricated annually). Lexus warrants hybrid battery systems at 10 years and 150k miles....I don't think you'll see too many GS battery failures quite yet, since the car is pretty new.
What a hybrid does is keep the engine from extreme revs much of the time, as compared to an ICE drivetrain. Does it occur to you that avoiding extreme revs might put less stress on the ICE part of the drivetrain, and therefore lead to better reliability?
This is proof that greenie biases are definitely reflected in CR results.
If high-mpg vehicles get a dependability bias, then the E320 Bluetec must been even less reliable in reality than it looks to be in CR (which is already much less reliable than the GS450h). No one has addressed this yet from the germancarfan camp.
[cdpinhead] 2) Unless statistical data comes from a carefully-selected population (one that has no axe to grind), the data is likely to be flawed.
[tagman] The owner of a Range Rover is likely more fussy about every little thing than the owner of a Tacoma. He/she might bring that type of vehicle in for the slightest little thing more often than the owner of a piece of basic transportation. Does anyone know for a fact if that is possibly true, and if it is, to what extent? Or is it not true? Or is the opposite true?
Too many unknowns for me. But I do agree with the general trend and concensus. I have little doubts about them, and I don't want to appear to be in some sort of denial here. I accept the general nature of the data, and always have. The specifics of it, however, I question.
What people should realize is that though a voluntarily-responded to survey has limits to its usefulness, it isn't that hard to see where those limits might be, and on the other hand where the results are still useful and reasonably reliable.
1. It might indeed be true that people 'with a gripe' may be more likely to respond to a survey. What this would impact is the LEVEL of reported problems, but should not, by itself, lead to systemtic issues in comparing the RELATIVE real-world occurance of problems. By this I mean that, if in the real world the average car has 1.2 problems, a survey might pick up 2.4 or something, because people that have had problems might be more likely to repond to the survey. But there is no reason to believe that (if demographics and product types are similar, as discussed in point 2) if car brand X in CR is shown to have twice the level of problems of car brand Y, that the real world experience is much different, measured RELATIVELY.
2. Tag you suggested this and I agree, that demographics and product type might make a difference in how people respond to a survey. That's why I haven't compared the CR reliability of a Prius to that of an SL600. Different demographic, different product type....people might respond differently to surveys, so comparisons are not reliable.
What I HAVE done is compare entire carlines (Lexus vs MB, for instance) and specific, directly-competitive vehicles (E320 Bluetec vs GS450h). Since demographics and product types are similar, there is NO reason to believe that volutarily responded-to surveys will produce distorted results.
3. Almost all survey work outside of the car business is also voluntarily responded-to. That doesn't make the results unreliable. When is the last time you saw a poll for a Senatorial election show 60%-40% on election eve, and the 40%-guy then win the actual election?
Your guesses are pretty close, I am working for one of the defense contractors but it's neither Boeing or LM. Actually I did want to apply for Honda aviation division but I don't quiet like the location (it was in North Carolina I think).
Tag you suggested this and I agree, that demographics and product type might make a difference in how people respond to a survey. .........
What I HAVE done is compare entire carlines (Lexus vs MB, for instance) and specific, directly-competitive vehicles (E320 Bluetec vs GS450h). Since demographics and product types are similar, there is NO reason to believe that volutarily responded-to surveys will produce distorted results.
Well, I think by doing so, you might narrow the distortion, and it can certainly a good idea to look at the overall manufacturer's lineup. There are problems with this, however, when a new model comes out. I think of the Porsche Cayenne as an example. Its initial debut was not nearly as good as the rest of the lineup... creating more distortion to the overall picture.
Your guesses are pretty close, I am working for one of the defense contractors but it's neither Boeing or LM. Actually I did want to apply for Honda aviation division but I don't quiet like the location (it was in North Carolina I think).
Well, I think by doing so, you might narrow the distortion, and it can certainly a good idea to look at the overall manufacturer's lineup. There are problems with this, however, when a new model comes out. I think of the Porsche Cayenne as an example. Its initial debut was not nearly as good as the rest of the lineup... creating more distortion to the overall picture.
If the Cayenne had quality problems, and it did, and Porsche overall carline reliability stats suffered, then the stats only reflected the reality of worse average Porsche reliability. What's wrong with that?
If someone wanted to look specifically at Boxster reliability, they still could and should have.
If someone wanted to look specifically at Boxster reliability, they still could and should have.
Of course.
But with regards to the Cayenne example I provided...
The idea that the overall average for a manufacturer can give a clearer idea about a particular model... or... that a particular model might give an idea of the overall average just ends up not working very well, as I illuminated with the example.
Well then, annecdotally, you haven't had a starter motor fail for at least 18 years.
Actually, not the case. Annectdotally, I haven't personally changed one for quite some time.
And starter motors fail every day, whether mine or not, and they ARE electric motors... and you were pointing out that electric motors are somehow fail-proof... and therefore the GS hybrid can't be any more prone to failure than the model without the electric motors...
I agree with Dewey. It's just too darned logical. Take the same car by the same manufacturer and place additional components on it, and I believe that the likelihood of failure rises. It's freakin common sense.
I owned my Camry 7 years, no starter motor failure. RX300 9 years, no starter motor failure. LX470 8 years, no starter motor failure. 2 home A/C compressors, no failure after 9 years. Furnace fan motors, 1 of 2 failed, and that after 9 years.
When exactly did you last have an electric motor fail, who made it, and how old was it at the time?
Take the same car by the same manufacturer and place additional components on it, and I believe that the likelihood of failure rises. It's freakin common sense.
You guys need to study how hybrid powertrains function before deciding what is common sense. I'm telling you that the electric motors run (in part) when the ICE would otherwise be straining. Can you see that less strain, less high revving on the ICE might just mean greater reliability for the ICE part of the system? Is that common sense enough for you?
The idea that the overall average for a manufacturer can give a clearer idea about a particular model... or... that a particular model might give an idea of the overall average just ends up not working very well, as I illuminated with the example.
If Porsche introduced a new model today, no reliability data would be available for it. I would indeed look at overall carline reliability to get at least some idea of what might happen with the new model. I'd also look at the 1st year reliability for other models that the company has introduced. And I'd prefer doing that to simply shooting in the dark.
No small percentage of Lexus buyers will gladly pay the hybrid premium for better-performing luxury cars. In the UK, almost a third (28 percent) of new Lexus models sold are hybrid versions, according to Just-Auto (subs req'd) While the RX 400h is the brand's best-selling hybrid model (80 percent of UK sales), let's not forget the world's most expensive production hybrid, the LS 600h (pictured) and that the Lexus GS 450h sedan sells more than the non-hybrid version in the UK. link title
that all surveys are self-selected to a greater or lesser extent. If some pinheaded (this is a good thing) organization tries their best to put together a statistically valid sample population & half the people they contact tell them to go fly a kite, we're right back where we started.
That's why I continue to wish we could get data from the primes. They know how many of each they've sold, and they know how many of what needed to be fixed. No one else does & no one else ever will. The rest of us ar all pi***ng up a rope.
Then there's the question of whether the sunshade not activating properly equals a braking system failure at 75mph. As nearly as I can tell, most of these surveys only ask about problems, not how severe they are. I'd put them into three categories: 1) inconvenient (the sunshade thing, or the radio doesn't tune correctly), 2) intrusive, but the car still runs (the power window drops when it's 117 above or 23 below & won't come up), 3) beside the road dead -- call a tow truck.
It's all BS at the moment, but certainly provides hours of entertainment discussing &/or believing in.
That's why I continue to wish we could get data from the primes.
That would be great, but it hasn't happened.
Again, I'll refer you to my earlier post, which based reliability rankings on actual costs (in the form of claims) incurred by owners of third-party extended warranties issued by a UK company. Broadly speaking, Japanese cars seemed more reliable, based on extended warranty actual repair costs, than German cars.
Heres an idea: find a U.S. third party extended warranty company that will give quotes online. Quote some comparably-priced MB, BMW, Lexus models. See how the quotes compare. Presumably, quotes for policies (from the same issuing company) will reflect that company's actual claims experience....i.e., if a particular model has been very reliable, it won't historically have had many claims (in dollars), and therefore the third party extended warranty will be relatively cheap.
I'm not going to pursue this myself, because I accept JDP and CR data as being broadly valid, so I'm not going to waste my time confirming what I already believe to be true. But those of you who are more skeptical of JDP and CR are welcome to pursue this line of inquiry, and please report the results to us. That is, if you can handle the truth.
As a graduate in advertising and marketing, I know a little about putting a "spin" on things... and I've admittedly been guilty in my earliest days of posting a spin or two (I wouldn't THINK to do it nowadays...LOL. ), but seriously, data and statistics can so easily be some of the most abused and contrived and twisted bits of information on the planet.
One of the most remarkable things I remember learning was how a statistic can be represented truthfully, yet mean the exact opposite of its expression.
Politicians are some of the very best at using these types of statistics and data.
As before I'm not saying there isn't some level of merit to consensus data, but I know better than to just accept what appears to suggest one conclusion, only to discover there are built-in errors in the acquisition, compilation, and/or expression of the data.
Quite frankly, it's amazing to me that the popular vote of Americans doesn't actually elect the President of the United States... and many typical Americans don't even know that.
Often, the worst type of misuse of data is with percentages, when the changed unit of measurement is expressed by percentage instead of a specific quantitative amount, or the other way around, depending upon which looks better.
As you said... it can be a lot of BS.
But, I do want to show respect for some of the information that our fellow posters have dug up for us, and taken the time to post. There is a level of general truthfulness that I believe we can accept from some of it. And still some of it is indeed interesting and motivates good discussion... as well as get me and the Doc to crack a few jokes and jabs with each other along the way!
And no matter what anybody posts... there's no way the Tundra is EVER going to become the number one selling truck in this country.
I wonder if there is a source anywhere for replacement parts orders. That would seem to be the best source to track (excluding air filters and other frequently changed items).
Please, explain how the LF-A will set itself apart from the other supercars. The R8 has shown that a "normal" luxury maker can produce something truly special, that challenges more established sports cars for their places on the throne.
What will the LF-A do? Is Lexus leaning towards a GT-type placement (DB9) or an all-out sports car (F430)? Or something in between (R8, 911 Turbo)? I'm guessing DB9. If so, why wouldn't you get a DB9? Why would you get it over any of those sports cars? Because it's more reliable? LOL.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Excuse some parts of that post. Granted, if the LF-A is stunningly beautiful and has incredible performance, it will be one to lust after.
But the odds are against them. The latest concept was certainly not beautiful-- to me it looked like a catfish. And the chances of it being a great performance car are... slim to none.
However, what's contradictory is that it will be a two-seater, taking away from its assumed GT image. That gives the DB9 another edge, aside from its sexy body. Of course, the Aston's back seats are useless, but that doesn't stop it from being marketed as a four-seater and flaunting lower insurance rates without the expense of looks.
So I guess we'll just have to wait and see... but for now, I'm still a Ferrari/Audi/Maserati/Aston Martin/Porsche person. I wouldn't buy a Lamborghini, though I love them.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
All I know about the LF-A, having seen it in person, is it is a truly beautiful machine, far superior (looking) than the R8. The R8 doesn't impress me.
How it will stack up with the competition is anyone's guess. :confuse:
Now, let's just suppose that someone, somewhere still believes that somehow, inexplicably, there is some sort of bias in the way Lexus car owners responded to reliability surveys as compared to the way MB owners responded, and that in reality, MB are just as reliable as Lexus vehicles. How would such a person explain long term TRENDS in how MB has faired in such surveys?
In it’s latest survey released in August [2004], the UK-based consumer magazine Which? gave VW bad marks, putting it in the lowest “poor” category, a position it has now held for two years. Mercedes-Benz, which used to be in the top “best” category has steadily slipped two notches into the “average” category. Audi, once judged to be “good,” is now considered “poor,” and BMW has gone from “good” to “poor.”
MB once had a reputation for reliability. It would be interesting if someone wanted to go to the library and find how MB fared in CR rankings back in 1990 or so. Did it rank highly, as I imagine it did? If someone thinks CR is biased now, was it biased back then too?
Actually, I just realized that I have the 1998 CR "buying guide" issue in my den. I believe it was published in 1997. The data for say a then-6-year old (1991 model year) E-class is very illuminating compared to that from the current online CR for a now-6-year old (2001 model year) E320.
....................'91 car reported in '97....'01 car reported in '07
# of full-red circles (BEST):............6......2
# of half-red circles:........................4......4
# of empty circles:..........................1......4
# of half-black circles.....................3......5
# of full-black circles (WORST):....0......2
I guess they don't build 'em like they used to.
If CR is biased now, was it biased back then, too?
What a hybrid does is keep the engine from extreme revs much of the time, as compared to an ICE drivetrain. Does it occur to you that avoiding extreme revs might put less stress on the ICE part of the drivetrain, and therefore lead to better reliability?
Let me get this straight. Adding an electrical motor, and hybrid components will increase the reliability of a car.
Well the good news is at least you're not running a car company
Is the non-hybrid GS really exposed to a lot of extreme revs? I dont think so!! There apparently is no problem since the non-hybrid GS ICE problems are practically NIL based on CR stats.
So why is the GS hybrid more reliable than the non-hybrid version?
Greenie bias is about the only reason I can think of.
Comments
DrFill
It's a big picture thing. BMW selling 40% of it's 3-series with manuals isn't an accident.
Present the manual like it's a part of the performance package, not as some afterthought.
Lexus ain't perfect, but the Pursuit continues.
DrFill
If I am running Lexus I would definitely offer manual tranny across the IS, GS and SC line. However, since I understand why Lexus does this I won't fault them for not to.
They sell enough so that it is worth it. They redesigned it with one, and it was never a question.
There is a market there, but Lexus doesn't want in.
The IS won't take 3-series buyers, per se. But it will give them conquest sales. If you want a manual, you KNOW don't step foot in a Lexus dealership.
I've driven the IS350 once, and all I know about it is it is fast, and small inside. Toyota could sell 10-15% manual, if they wanted to.
DrFill
Here's the link: 2007 Infiniti G35 Sport: Get the Automatic
As for the IS350, it's not just fast and small, it's also more comfortable for the driver and front seat passenger. My car has been in the body shop for almost 2 weeks now, I can't describe how much I miss my car while driving the rental.
Thosse ownership statistics you have provided are useless since most young people who want a Lexus or a BMW dont own a Lexus or BMW.
Jim Farley knows a bit more than those stats you have posted here. He knows through focus groups and internal research that younger people who are not necessarily luxury car owners yet are bigger fans of BMW than Lexus.
The future belongs to BMW because once these youngsters mature and their wallets get fatter they will buy the car they have always wanted: And it aint gonna be a Lexus.
The younger generations are interested in "road feel" and "thrills" AND not CR surveys, comfort and sound proof mobile chambers. Unlike their aging baby boomer parents.
The Pepsi generationt ,the BMW generation and the Facebook generation are younger than the Lexus and Fax Machine generation. And that is not good for Lexus.
TagMan
And whose to say there will not be a BMW hybrid. A BMW clean diesel or even biodiesel. A BMW diesel-hybrid. Or more models like the hyrdrogen BMW 7 Series.
Lexus has the 9th older buyers (49). BMW has the 10th oldest buyer (46)?
Pepsi? Try Prune Juice, Grandpa! :P
DrFill
BMW to us is way overpriced. A few of my friends who like "road feel" are choosing Infiniti instead. This generation doesn't believe in "German is the best" myth because we grew up under the influence of Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infiniti and Honda/Acura. BMW and MB IMO are the one who should be worrying. For those who have rich parents they probably will choose BMW and MB because they don't have to pay for it. But for us hard working young professionals/executives the [non-permissible content removed] luxury is a much wiser decision.
The BMW is 30-35% more expensive. That's HUGE!
They're getting it, so bless 'em.
But Infiniti is not Hyundai. They can't just be dismissed. And it is a great performer!
But BMW is a heavy badge, and Americans love established, heavy badges.
$5k might be acceptable, given the badge, driving heritage, and purity. But that's it. :confuse:
DrFill
The words you used were "flawed methodology" and "bogus".
The Prius, in particular, is the flagship for the green movement, & the greenies are in no hurry to put it in a bad light.
No one was comparing say MB reliability to Prius reliability.
2) Unless statistical data comes from a carefully-selected population (one that has no axe to grind), the data is likely to be flawed.
I'll get to this later.
Congratulations on the masters degree... in WHAT?
25, huh? Then I'll expect a little more respect from you in the future!
TagMan
Why would you care, if you think CR ratings are flawed?
Thanks, Dewey... I must have lost my way momentarily... but thank goodness you were there in the blink of an eye!
TagMan
NONSENSE!!!
You your head, buddy. When's the last time you had an electric motor fail? Or a battery (other than normal discharge)? In my house, we had the electric motor in one of our furnaces go....9 years after being installed, and having received zero maintenance (it was supposed to have been lubricated annually). Lexus warrants hybrid battery systems at 10 years and 150k miles....I don't think you'll see too many GS battery failures quite yet, since the car is pretty new.
What a hybrid does is keep the engine from extreme revs much of the time, as compared to an ICE drivetrain. Does it occur to you that avoiding extreme revs might put less stress on the ICE part of the drivetrain, and therefore lead to better reliability?
This is proof that greenie biases are definitely reflected in CR results.
If high-mpg vehicles get a dependability bias, then the E320 Bluetec must been even less reliable in reality than it looks to be in CR (which is already much less reliable than the GS450h). No one has addressed this yet from the germancarfan camp.
I can hardly wait.
Aerospace Engineering.
I'll expect a little more respect from you in the future!
I give respect when respect is due.
OH, baloney!!!... I used to change the starter motor on some of my old vehicles contless times. Last I checked, they are an electric motor.
TagMan
LOL. According to who?
TagMan
ME!
That was a given, young man!
Are you working for Lockheed, Boeing, NASA, or the Military?...
Oh wait a minute!... Honda makes jets now! Maybe you have a bright future with them.
TM
[tagman] The owner of a Range Rover is likely more fussy about every little thing than the owner of a Tacoma. He/she might bring that type of vehicle in for the slightest little thing more often than the owner of a piece of basic transportation. Does anyone know for a fact if that is possibly true, and if it is, to what extent? Or is it not true? Or is the opposite true?
Too many unknowns for me. But I do agree with the general trend and concensus. I have little doubts about them, and I don't want to appear to be in some sort of denial here. I accept the general nature of the data, and always have. The specifics of it, however, I question.
What people should realize is that though a voluntarily-responded to survey has limits to its usefulness, it isn't that hard to see where those limits might be, and on the other hand where the results are still useful and reasonably reliable.
1. It might indeed be true that people 'with a gripe' may be more likely to respond to a survey. What this would impact is the LEVEL of reported problems, but should not, by itself, lead to systemtic issues in comparing the RELATIVE real-world occurance of problems. By this I mean that, if in the real world the average car has 1.2 problems, a survey might pick up 2.4 or something, because people that have had problems might be more likely to repond to the survey. But there is no reason to believe that (if demographics and product types are similar, as discussed in point 2) if car brand X in CR is shown to have twice the level of problems of car brand Y, that the real world experience is much different, measured RELATIVELY.
2. Tag you suggested this and I agree, that demographics and product type might make a difference in how people respond to a survey. That's why I haven't compared the CR reliability of a Prius to that of an SL600. Different demographic, different product type....people might respond differently to surveys, so comparisons are not reliable.
What I HAVE done is compare entire carlines (Lexus vs MB, for instance) and specific, directly-competitive vehicles (E320 Bluetec vs GS450h). Since demographics and product types are similar, there is NO reason to believe that volutarily responded-to surveys will produce distorted results.
3. Almost all survey work outside of the car business is also voluntarily responded-to. That doesn't make the results unreliable. When is the last time you saw a poll for a Senatorial election show 60%-40% on election eve, and the 40%-guy then win the actual election?
You need to buy a Lexus, my friend.
What I HAVE done is compare entire carlines (Lexus vs MB, for instance) and specific, directly-competitive vehicles (E320 Bluetec vs GS450h). Since demographics and product types are similar, there is NO reason to believe that volutarily responded-to surveys will produce distorted results.
Well, I think by doing so, you might narrow the distortion, and it can certainly a good idea to look at the overall manufacturer's lineup. There are problems with this, however, when a new model comes out. I think of the Porsche Cayenne as an example. Its initial debut was not nearly as good as the rest of the lineup... creating more distortion to the overall picture.
TagMan
TagMan
Ok... Raytheon or Hughes?
TagMan
Well then, annecdotally, you haven't had a starter motor fail for at least 18 years. Maybe modern electric motors are more reliable?
If the Cayenne had quality problems, and it did, and Porsche overall carline reliability stats suffered, then the stats only reflected the reality of worse average Porsche reliability. What's wrong with that?
If someone wanted to look specifically at Boxster reliability, they still could and should have.
Of course.
But with regards to the Cayenne example I provided...
The idea that the overall average for a manufacturer can give a clearer idea about a particular model... or... that a particular model might give an idea of the overall average just ends up not working very well, as I illuminated with the example.
TagMan
Actually, not the case. Annectdotally, I haven't personally changed one for quite some time.
And starter motors fail every day, whether mine or not, and they ARE electric motors... and you were pointing out that electric motors are somehow fail-proof... and therefore the GS hybrid can't be any more prone to failure than the model without the electric motors...
I agree with Dewey. It's just too darned logical. Take the same car by the same manufacturer and place additional components on it, and I believe that the likelihood of failure rises. It's freakin common sense.
TagMan
A true scholar of the highest order! :shades:
They wouldn't let me in with just a 1400 SAT. But I'm a comer.
DrFill
But how old are they and who made them?
I owned my Camry 7 years, no starter motor failure. RX300 9 years, no starter motor failure. LX470 8 years, no starter motor failure. 2 home A/C compressors, no failure after 9 years. Furnace fan motors, 1 of 2 failed, and that after 9 years.
When exactly did you last have an electric motor fail, who made it, and how old was it at the time?
Take the same car by the same manufacturer and place additional components on it, and I believe that the likelihood of failure rises. It's freakin common sense.
You guys need to study how hybrid powertrains function before deciding what is common sense. I'm telling you that the electric motors run (in part) when the ICE would otherwise be straining. Can you see that less strain, less high revving on the ICE might just mean greater reliability for the ICE part of the system? Is that common sense enough for you?
If Porsche introduced a new model today, no reliability data would be available for it. I would indeed look at overall carline reliability to get at least some idea of what might happen with the new model. I'd also look at the 1st year reliability for other models that the company has introduced. And I'd prefer doing that to simply shooting in the dark.
While the RX 400h is the brand's best-selling hybrid model (80 percent of UK sales), let's not forget the world's most expensive production hybrid, the LS 600h (pictured) and that the Lexus GS 450h sedan sells more than the non-hybrid version in the UK. link title
That's why I continue to wish we could get data from the primes. They know how many of each they've sold, and they know how many of what needed to be fixed. No one else does & no one else ever will. The rest of us ar all pi***ng up a rope.
Then there's the question of whether the sunshade not activating properly equals a braking system failure at 75mph. As nearly as I can tell, most of these surveys only ask about problems, not how severe they are. I'd put them into three categories: 1) inconvenient (the sunshade thing, or the radio doesn't tune correctly), 2) intrusive, but the car still runs (the power window drops when it's 117 above or 23 below & won't come up), 3) beside the road dead -- call a tow truck.
It's all BS at the moment, but certainly provides hours of entertainment discussing &/or believing in.
Go nuts.
That would be great, but it hasn't happened.
Again, I'll refer you to my earlier post, which based reliability rankings on actual costs (in the form of claims) incurred by owners of third-party extended warranties issued by a UK company. Broadly speaking, Japanese cars seemed more reliable, based on extended warranty actual repair costs, than German cars.
Heres an idea: find a U.S. third party extended warranty company that will give quotes online. Quote some comparably-priced MB, BMW, Lexus models. See how the quotes compare. Presumably, quotes for policies (from the same issuing company) will reflect that company's actual claims experience....i.e., if a particular model has been very reliable, it won't historically have had many claims (in dollars), and therefore the third party extended warranty will be relatively cheap.
I'm not going to pursue this myself, because I accept JDP and CR data as being broadly valid, so I'm not going to waste my time confirming what I already believe to be true. But those of you who are more skeptical of JDP and CR are welcome to pursue this line of inquiry, and please report the results to us. That is, if you can handle the truth.
The truth? You can't handle the truth!
One of the most remarkable things I remember learning was how a statistic can be represented truthfully, yet mean the exact opposite of its expression.
Politicians are some of the very best at using these types of statistics and data.
As before I'm not saying there isn't some level of merit to consensus data, but I know better than to just accept what appears to suggest one conclusion, only to discover there are built-in errors in the acquisition, compilation, and/or expression of the data.
Quite frankly, it's amazing to me that the popular vote of Americans doesn't actually elect the President of the United States... and many typical Americans don't even know that.
Often, the worst type of misuse of data is with percentages, when the changed unit of measurement is expressed by percentage instead of a specific quantitative amount, or the other way around, depending upon which looks better.
As you said... it can be a lot of BS.
But, I do want to show respect for some of the information that our fellow posters have dug up for us, and taken the time to post. There is a level of general truthfulness that I believe we can accept from some of it. And still some of it is indeed interesting and motivates good discussion... as well as get me and the Doc to crack a few jokes and jabs with each other along the way!
And no matter what anybody posts... there's no way the Tundra is EVER going to become the number one selling truck in this country.
TagMan
What will the LF-A do? Is Lexus leaning towards a GT-type placement (DB9) or an all-out sports car (F430)? Or something in between (R8, 911 Turbo)? I'm guessing DB9. If so, why wouldn't you get a DB9? Why would you get it over any of those sports cars? Because it's more reliable? LOL.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
But the odds are against them. The latest concept was certainly not beautiful-- to me it looked like a catfish. And the chances of it being a great performance car are... slim to none.
However, what's contradictory is that it will be a two-seater, taking away from its assumed GT image. That gives the DB9 another edge, aside from its sexy body. Of course, the Aston's back seats are useless, but that doesn't stop it from being marketed as a four-seater and flaunting lower insurance rates without the expense of looks.
So I guess we'll just have to wait and see... but for now, I'm still a Ferrari/Audi/Maserati/Aston Martin/Porsche person. I wouldn't buy a Lamborghini, though I love them.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
LOL, Doc, you are too kind.
How it will stack up with the competition is anyone's guess. :confuse:
DrFill
For instance, this 2004 article:
In it’s latest survey released in August [2004], the UK-based consumer magazine Which? gave VW bad marks, putting it in the lowest “poor” category, a position it has now held for two years. Mercedes-Benz, which used to be in the top “best” category has steadily slipped two notches into the “average” category. Audi, once judged to be “good,” is now considered “poor,” and BMW has gone from “good” to “poor.”
MB once had a reputation for reliability. It would be interesting if someone wanted to go to the library and find how MB fared in CR rankings back in 1990 or so. Did it rank highly, as I imagine it did? If someone thinks CR is biased now, was it biased back then too?
....................'91 car reported in '97....'01 car reported in '07
# of full-red circles (BEST):............6......2
# of half-red circles:........................4......4
# of empty circles:..........................1......4
# of half-black circles.....................3......5
# of full-black circles (WORST):....0......2
I guess they don't build 'em like they used to.
If CR is biased now, was it biased back then, too?
Let me get this straight. Adding an electrical motor, and hybrid components will increase the reliability of a car.
Well the good news is at least you're not running a car company
Is the non-hybrid GS really exposed to a lot of extreme revs? I dont think so!! There apparently is no problem since the non-hybrid GS ICE problems are practically NIL based on CR stats.
So why is the GS hybrid more reliable than the non-hybrid version?
Greenie bias is about the only reason I can think of.