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Comments
Absolutely, the manufacturer and the suspension capabilities of the car are what I was referring to when I mentioned it. I'm not talking top-end performance which would be expected of an LPS, but I'm talking good handling with a smoothness and road-holding capability... all in the same luxury vehicle that has a powertrain that gets absolutely terrific gas mileage.
So, my point was that brute force was not as necessary as good overall driving dynamics, and great fuel-economy to go with it, as well as all the interior amenities expected of a top end luxury car... and the great appearance as well, of course. That's where I see the need in the luxury segment... and where the market should go. In other words keep the luxury level high, but replace some of the over-kill on the horespower with absolutely outstanding fuel-economy.
Gas will be $4.00/gallon before you know it, and maybe even $5.00/gallon by the end of the decade, or certainly shortly thereafter. Just do the math on that and you'll see that $80 - $120 fill-ups in luxury cars that get only 15 - 22 mpg just isn't going to cut it any more.
TagMan
Hybrid should be "honored" for what it is capable of doing, and the Prius is the best example when it comes to pure economy. The LS600hL is the only serious disappointment. When you look at the Civic, Camry, Highlander, RX, Yukon/Tahoe as compared to their gas counterparts it is still pretty impressive. And comparing the Highlander or RX hybrids to the ML320 CDI, or the Yukon/Tahoe to the GL320 CDI, hybrid also comes out on top, both in a direct mpg comparison to the ML/GL, and in comparing the mpg improvement vs the gas counterpart.
The GS is impressive too, if one considers both the mpg and performance aspects, since it was developed more as a "performance hybrid". Impressive in economy/performance vs the gas counterpart, and vs the E320BT in a direct comparison, and in terms of the mpg/performance improvement vs the gas counterpart (as compared to the mpg/performance improvement of the E320BT vs the E350).
We have been over the exact stats ad nauseum in recent weeks.
I am basically trying to make the point with recent posts that there are no outstanding fuel-efficient LUXURY cars yet.
Like I've said, the Prius, Highlander, Camry, Civic, Tahoe that you mention are in a different arena than a true LUX car.
Again, the Luxury car market is ripe for cars that retain their luxury, but give up a little of the excess power and achieve 30 - 40 mpg with the use of an alternative powertrain.
TagMan
If Lexus wanted to put a 4-cyl engine in the GS hybrid, I think you'd probably get the 30mpg you want, since the Camry gets 34 mpg combined (and the Camry V6 ICE is only 188 lb. lighter than the V6 ICE GS). But the Camry hybrid does 0-60 (per C&D) in 7.7sec. I would guesstimate that a GS 4-cyl hybrid might get 32-33 mpg and do 0-60 in 7.8-7.9 sec. Probably not enough performance for you.
I think you're in for a long wait to get what you want. It will take a diesel hybrid or HCCI hybrid to get 30+ mpg combined with adequate performance in a midsized luxury car.
"adequate performance" is the whole point I've been trying to discuss. I recall Dewey's and others discussing the unnecessary amount of power in vehicles and how it is almost impossible in many conditions to ever use what I would refer to as "the surplus of power" that has made its way into many luxury and oother vehicles. With reasonably-priced fuel, that was never an issue.
But NOW, I think that the reduction of some of that surplus of power is realistic, and it should benefit the fuel-economy that will become more and more a priority for buyers... even including the luxury car buyer.
edit: with regards to the size of the vehicle, I'd have to think about whether or not the market would accept a slight downsize in what has traditionally been larger luxury sedans... I suppose if the interior content was up to luxury standards in every way, it is conceivable, but the rear passenger room, and cargo capacity seem to be of particular importance in this category, so the size of the vehicle could likely never get diminished by all that much. Certainly weight reduction is VERY helpful, as Jaguar has proved with its extensive use of aluminum.
TagMan
I'm guessing not, because it would still be a Lexus.
Let's get this clear from this point forward...
I would absolutely buy a Lexus if there was one I liked. The same is true for ANY car manufacturer. I am not anti-Lexus. I just don't see any car Lexus manufacturers at this point in time that I would want to own.
Also, do you consider the GS a luxury car?
TagMan
It isn't a car I'm likely to buy. But most people would define the C/3/ES as "near luxury" and the E/5/GS and up as "luxury".
I guess I think of the segment as more "mid luxury".
I know the question was not toward to me but my answer is: YES.
The GS is as much of a luxury car as the 5er and E-class.
So, while we don't have the same constraints on this forum, I think it still makes sense to at least know whether or not you are considering the E-Class and GS as luxury cars or not.
I do believe that the size of those cars will be more accepted as "luxury" cars in the future, and the interior features will, of course, further improve to reflect that change.
BTW, IIRC, Forbes even considers the 3-series a luxury car! Go figure.
TagMan
I think the question may have been whether the E was "high end luxury" since "high end luxury" was the title of the forum.
TagMan
I rode top-speed in a Bugatti Veyron 16.4. That's right, all the way up to 252mph top speed. A really phenomenal car, I must say.
However, to get that speed, you must first "prep" the car's electronics and suspension. And once there, it wasn't very smooth, and once you lift your foot off of the gas for 2 seconds or brake, the car resume normal speeds. Not worth 2 mil+, even if you do have it in my opinion.
Now the new Ferrari 599 GTB, ooohh, that is the finest on the rode currently.
The 599 GTB is incredible, but I'd sooner have an F430 Spyder and pocket the rest for an RS4 or M3.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
:P
Diesel is still for me.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
TM
I've never even sat in one... going zero!
I can only imagine the thrill.
BTW, where ya been? Good to hear from you... especially with a post like that!
TagMan
TagMan
I'll have to go against my own grain and post this comment on hybrids after seeing this today. I remembered that I had liked this concept when I first saw it, and now that we know it is to be the basis for the next Honda hybrid, I'll go on record to say it would make a fine-looking commuter car, IMO. By comparison, it makes the Prius look like something from the old American Motors.
TagMan
Also, those wheels have to go, yeah...
Agree it's better looking than Prius but the Prius is a midsize sedan and this is a coupe. If Honda wants to have a broader appeal for this car then a 4-door version is needed.
Well, the information is that the production model will be larger than the concept, but I doubt it will ever be a 4-door. I actually like it (the hybrid concept above, not sure about the hydrogen concept below). I'd be tempted to buy one if it didn't stray all too far from the concept.
I believe that their 4-door approach is with hydrogen, and is this 2008 car...
TagMan
Yes, I saw the rear. It would be totally different in a production car, of course, as would most of the car. I seldom expect Honda to ever stay all too close to their concepts anyway. For example, this was the concept that led to the Insight... Not even close to each other!
TagMan
And I thought swing doors for Hondas only appear on souped up Civics... :P
Seriously though, this will be a very good Acura with the 300HP 3.5L V6 mounted at the middle and SH-AWD for around $45K. Wouldn't you think so? It'll give the R8 a run for its money.
How is that even possible... unless the production car would cost too much, in THEIR opinion.
edit: I think Mitsubishi took more from it than Honda did.
TagMan
Honda is built by engineers and it still is. Engineers are very sensible and logical animals, they rarely go out and do things following their hearts, rather, they follow their brains.
Toyota on the other hand are built by bunch of marketing experts. They know that the buying public WANTS hot rods but NEEDS appliances so they go out and build appliances.
Due to the difference, a Honda generally handles better than Toyota but in terms of getting the blood boils up, they all lack behind the Germans. It's not that they don't have "soul", it's just that they have different souls.
Looks like the typical Civic type R (we're talking Europe for the moment), but.... get a load of this...
Honda is currently developing a new high-performance diesel engine for its Civic range, a new report finds. Outside of North America, the Civic is currently available with a 2.2L diesel engine with 140 horsepower. However, many of the Civic's rivals — such as the VW Golf, Renault Megane and Toyota Auris — offer more powerful diesels with about 170 horsepower. To combat the power discrepancy, Honda engineers are considering using the Accord's more powerful 2.2L CTDi engine in the Civic.
Honda's top powertrain engineer, Kenichi Nagahiro, told AutoCar that a diesel-powered Civic Type-R is a strong possibility. “As long as it is in keeping with the Type-R brand we will do it.” Nagahiro said. “High revving has to be part of it and that’s what we’re working on.”
Honda engineers are reportedly tuning the Civic Type-R's diesel to produce 180 horsepower and 315 ft-lb of torque.
Even if it is for Europe, that's still very interesting, IMO. Like you said... "engineers".....
TagMan
Daimler-to-produce-fuel-cell-vehicles-by-2015
We've been all about hybrids and diesels lately, but let's not forget the longer-term outlook might very well be hydrogen fuel cells.
TagMan
Also, products are very market driven. I personally would love to see many models that Honda and Toyota offer in Europe and Japan here but our conservative market is the major reason why they aren't.
By the way, 315 lb-ft is amazing from a 2.2L engine. Is that diesel engine NA or force induced?
Shipping hydrogen around verges on the impossible not to mention incredibly impractical. Also the investment from gas station owners would be huge and there seems to be zero interest from them to change that.
I know Honda has a hydrogen refueling station in CA, but whether the manufacturers can produce hydrogen cars in 10, or 20, years will be irrelevant with no place to fill them.
And we talk about diesel not being available in many stations....
Are you in the path of any of the wild fires?
Hoping you and yours are safe and sound.
LOADS of torque... don't know if it's naturally aspirated or not... but my wild guess is "not".
TagMan
Are you in the path of any of the wild fires?
Hoping you and yours are safe and sound.
thanks, Bristol2...
I feel sad for so many families.
Gosh, I just heard on the news that only one degree of increased average global temperature causes four times the amount of western U.S. fires. Yikes!... are enough people starting to get the message from Al Gore yet?
TagMan
Like about 40 years, imo.
TM
edit: Isn't BMW going to produce their hydrogen 7-series?
As bristol2 noted above, hydrogen has a few problems.
Here's an article I posted a few years ago:
MIT Technology Review article
Some of the companies, like BMW, that are trotting out hydrogen fuel cell cars now, are doing so for PR purposes, partly to counter their lack of hybrids.
TagMan
I can only imagine they must have trucked it in to drive around.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
The F430 is indeed the car to have over say a 911 Turbo Cab or GT3 or SL65 AMG. The 599 I feel is in a class all to itself because the SLR Mclaren ain't cuttin it compared to this car.
And yes, I'd take the F430 and buy an RS4, M3, C63, or CTS-v for those "rainy days".
Honda makes superb cars and I would take the new Accord, but there's something about European cars in general that's just so much more interesting. Take the French and Italian "economy cars," for example. France's Camry, the new Cïtroen C5, looks absolutely gorgeous:
http://cars.uk.msn.com/news/car_news_article.aspx?cp-documentid=6447529
They mention the car's Audi-ness, and I completely agree. It is the French take on any Audi sedan, and it even has some Ford Mondeo styling cues. Both are very good things. You can't say the same thing about any new Japanese family sedan.
Of course, there are the exotics and the luxury cars. As a whole, it's the Italians and Germans that really excite me. But European vehicles in general possess something special. Something that will always retain the status quo, something that will always push them ahead of other countries, something that makes up for any lack of feature content that they may have. And that's why I love them.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Apparently, though (according to Top Gear), the 599 is capable of getting through rain fairly comfortably. Pick up the latest issue and you'll see. They have a fabulous, huge comparison of all the latest performance cars and it's a treat to read.
As for the Turbo... that one beckons to me. The F430 is out of range (I could possibly get a used 360 but I'm not ready). If I end up getting only one car instead of two, and that's a possible "if," the 911 Turbo could be just the ticket.
For now, though, I'll stop dreaming about Ferraris and Porsches and focus on my wife's next car. It'll probably be a BMW X5, 4.8i of course.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
The Veyron was a very interesting ride. I was able to ride along with a dear friend of ours on a closed track in Germany.
The tires are Michelin's that are one-of-a-kind just for the Bugatti. So much so in fact of course no one carries them, and Bugatti says they only last about 2-3k miles in "normal" driving, so Michelin would need to be downloaded into your "Blackberry Contacts".
I finally sold our SRT-8 JGC, so we have to get an SUV now. We're off to the Benz dealer to check out the GL550 for her tomorrow. I wish she'd wait until next year for the Bluetec version to be certified for we New Yorkers, but that's a slim chance.
article
Gotta love the EPA.
I'd dearly love to be able to choose among a 2.0, 2.5 or 3.35 diesel in a 3 series RWD sedan or estate, but it's not gonna happen anytime soon.
I've gotten to the point where I'm pi**** off enough about what's being offered in the US that I'm probably going to just go with an appliance (Acura TSX), since I can't get what I really want.
Not that anyone (least of all the importers/manufacturers) gives a rip.
That's why I asked you about the tires! I just couldn't fathom that anything off the rack would ever be up to the job. Well, if they only get a couple thousand miles, I suppose a Bugatti owner could just keep the next set pre-ordered and waiting in the wings.
My goodness, your trip sounds like you are continually blessed in your life! Simply incredible.
Welcome back!
TagMan