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Full-size pickup sales - F-150 best selling truck, but for how much longer?

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Comments

  • Friends don't let friends buy Ford. A friend told me that so I bought the new Tundra. Best 1/2 ton ever!
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    Sure if bugs are ya thing lol
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    This discussion is about sales numbers. Everything else is off-topic. Some of you have clearly demonstrated that you are here for nothing but picking on each other. Not gonna happen here - find another website if you can't control yourselves.

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Keep it on sales.

    Like for every F-150 sale that is lost by Ford, Toyota gains a Tundra sale.

    I Wonder why? :confuse:

    DrFill
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    We will see for how long based on the new reliability ratings on the Tundra. Personally I don't think Ford is too concerned about Toyota. Not with their new reliability ratings....what a joke.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    They don't test drive the Tundra.

    Game over, dude. :blush:

    DrFill
  • With the GMT900's shining brightly and next year's new F150 and Dodge Ram coming out and the Tundra's "issues" :lemon: , I would not get too cocky about the Tundra's sales numbers. This little sales "spike" might be shorter lived than the 1st Gen Tundra and T100's was. Might want to update that resume Doc.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I wouldn't be betting any turnarounds on the '09 F150.

    The Ram will get over 400HP, so Tundra will need a little tweek for 2010.

    This little sales spike can put Sierra into the rearview mirror. :surprise:

    DrFill
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    You really need to update yourself on the data.

    The new GMT900's are not even selling as well as the outgoing GMT800's did. Not as a Silverado or as a Sierra.

    Seriously now, what is it that GM buyers don't like about the new vehicle?

    With all the purported improvements the new 900s should be scorching the old fashioned model. I guess the prior buyers saw the benefit of not having an FBF, eh? ;) It truly is embarrassing that the Tundra is kicking the Sierra's butt all over the country in the 1/2-ton segment ( combined GMT800 and GMT900 ).
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    You've been drinking too much of that purple koolaid. Tundra kicking butt? It and the Camry just received unreliable ratings from CR. Can you believe it? Wow...how much better can it get? ROTFLMFAO!!!

    BTW, that's spelled U-N-R-E-L-I-A-B-L-E
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    We would need spelling lessons on that word from a domestic fan. Do you guys have a book deal, or something?

    What's tomorrow's word? Overmatched? Complacent? Desperate? :blush:

    I'm really gonna trust a small six month reliability sample on a redesigned Toyota truck. Yeah.

    Highlander been out 3 months. Let's throw it under the bus too. :confuse:

    DrFill
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The sales numbers...which is the subject of this thread...speak for themselves.

    Enjoy your day.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    Yep and Ford is still No. 1.

    So what's your point?
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    I'm really gonna trust a small six month reliability sample on a redesigned Toyota truck. Yeah.

    Ohhhhh...and the camry has been out only 6 months too?

    ROTFLMFAO!!
  • Yep, the sales numbers do speak for themselves, and this is what they are saying (trucks):
    Ford is #1
    Chev is #2
    Dodge is #3
    GMC is #4 (Although I still think Silvy and Sierra should be combined since they are both GMT900's).
    Toyota is #5
    Nissan is #6

    What's your point Spyder?
  • You really need to update yourself on the data.

    The new GMT900's are not even selling as well as the outgoing GMT800's did. Not as a Silverado or as a Sierra.

    Seriously now, what is it that GM buyers don't like about the new vehicle?

    With all the purported improvements the new 900s should be scorching the old fashioned model. I guess the prior buyers saw the benefit of not having an FBF, eh? It truly is embarrassing that the Tundra is kicking the Sierra's butt all over the country in the 1/2-ton segment ( combined GMT800 and GMT900 ).


    As a Salesman, you already know tthis, so I should not have to explain it, but here goes:

    Full-size truck sales are down across the board due to the poor construction market and high gas prices. If the GMT800's were still here, their sales would be down even more. The GMT900's are night and day better than the GMT800's, and the GMT800's were EXCELLENT trucks. I should know, I owned one. Have you? Have you even driven a GMT900? To think their sales are down due to buyers "not liking" them is simply ignorant.

    Now, before you get all excited about the 50+% sales increase for the Tundra, keep in mind it's a brand new offering from Toyota, so obviously sales will spike due the hype among Toyota fans and the Toyota fans that have been waiting for a full size truck. Let's see what the sales growth percentage is between 2007-2008 Tundra's shall we? I bet they sell fewer 08's per month than 07's, I say per month because the Tundra did not arrive until March. Care to make a friendly internet crow-eating wager?

    Tundra is kicking the Sierra's butt??? YTD sales still have the Sierra ahead of the Tundra, and per month they are very close and I will also bet that Tundra will NOT pass the Sierra by year end. Nor will it outsell it next year. But like I said, that is a weak argument on your part anyway since the Silvy and Sierra are the same truck. They share the same customer base (loyalty-wise). It's pretty pathetic to have to compare your ONLY model to Silverado's "Little Cousin".
  • I'm really gonna trust a small six month reliability sample on a redesigned Toyota truck. Yeah

    I find it pathetic (yet very funny) that it only took 6 months to discover how unreliable it is. :lemon:

    Not to mention cheap and poorly built.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    But also funny that it was good enough to cause plant closing for GM, while Toyota struggles with rising demand.

    That is funny. ;)

    DrFill
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    Let's not get into "my dad can beat up your dad"-style posts.

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Reading for understanding...

    Yes it is a very difficult year and Ford has given GM a huge opening to jump into the No 1 rank but as of now it has not been able to do it. The GMT900? Since I work for a Chevy/Toyota/Honda/Acura/Hyundai/Mazda group yes I've driven them several times. But until recently there were tons of 'Classics' being sold in parallel to the new, improved version. The total sales are even y-t-y but the GMT900s are down in comparison to 2006s GMT800 sales. Ditto the Sierras. One would think that like the Tundra jumping in sales in the face of Ford's backoff that the new GMs would have also but not the case, they are lower in sales.

    Note in my post that I stated the 1/2-ton Tundra is kicking the Sierra's butt. In comparing 1/2 ton to 1/2 ton the Tundra sales I'm certain are far in excess of the Sierra's sales, the GMT800 and the GMT900 individually and both together. Remember the Sierra sales also include the 2500 and 3500 trucks. They have to be factored out to compare similar trucks.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    Yes it is a very difficult year and Ford has given GM a huge opening to jump into the No 1 rank but as of now it has not been able to do it

    Yes it is a very difficult year and Ford and GM have given Toyota a huge opening to jump into any rank but as of now it has not been able to do it. Rather they have broken camshafts, failing trans, and a dismal rating from CR.

    Hey doc...is that how you do your spins? lmao
  • Remember the Sierra sales also include the 2500 and 3500 trucks. They have to be factored out to compare similar trucks.

    How convenient. Anyone can find convenient ways to spin things in their favor, now think about this: How many 1/2 ton Tundra buyers would have stepped up to a HD Tundra if they were available? It is not GM or Ford's fault Toyota only offers one full-size truck platform. You can spin it all you want, the fact remains that Ford and GM both kick Toyota's [non-permissible content removed] in full size truck sales and that is not going to change anytime soon. I cannot wait until 2008/09 when the hype has worn off and the Tundra's issues continue, along with Ford and Dodge's new trucks coming out as well as GM's 4.5 L Duramax diesel in the 1/2 ton. Tundra who? It will be T100/1st gen Tundra all over again. Oh, and if you think it is tough to crack the American 1/2 ton market, I hope Tundra comes out with a HD, that will be even uglier (literally and figuratively). Good luck with that!!! HD truck buyers do not care about 0-60 times. They want a well-built truck that can actually stand up to real work.
  • Rather they have broken camshafts, failing trans, and a dismal rating from CR.

    Although these are the most serious of issues, they are only the tip of the iceberg as far as issues with the new Tundra. But that is another topic, but rest assured, these build quality issues will affect the Tundra's sales, especially if they continue and when Ford and Dodge introduce their new models. Oh, I can't wait!!!
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Often imitated. Never duplicated. ;)

    You try, and that's what's important. Don't ever forget it.

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Rather they have broken camshafts, failing trans, and a dismal rating from CR.

    Although these are the most serious of issues, they are only the tip of the iceberg as far as issues with the new Tundra.


    The best tow rating (Trailer Life/CR), best truck overall (CR/Edmunds), and best crash tests (IIHS) should be summarily discarded, so that GM can gain 1% this year, and be considered something other than a total failure.... :blush:

    Toyota is totally successful in taking Ford's lost share.

    GM....not so much..... :sick:

    Token defect, on 20 trucks. Low rating on one model. Incentives everywhere. Maybe the negative press is ATTRACTING domestic buyers, kind of like a "Homing Effect"? Smells like home to Ford Buyers!

    Does Toyota know this market or what? ;)

    DrFill
  • Best crash tests IIHS? Um, wrong, they were no better than GM's and worse (4 of 5 stars) in the NHTSA tests, but of course those tests don't count because they don't favor the Toyota huh?

    Trailer Life? Puleeeze!!! I think you mean Trailer Boating, and the only reason I know that is because I get a free subscription for having a registered bass boat. Now there is a quality publication, they have to GIVE it away to registered boaters. I don't even read this lame-[non-permissible content removed] Rag, but I have flipped through it before tossing it into the recycling bin. Guess who advertises the most in it? Yep, Toyota, coincidence? yeah, ok.

    Total failure huh? Even though they sell 5X the number of trucks that Toyota sells....Hmmmm, What does that make Toyota? Let's see, Toyota makes ONE full size truck, a 1/2 ton. GM makes 1/2, 3/4, 1 tons as well as Medium and Heavy Duty Trucks. Dream on dude.
  • mule2mule2 Posts: 11
    anythingbuttoy I've heard a lot of talk about tundra problems tran. cam. & other things.I own a tundra 5.7 .I had it serviced 5000 mi. I ask the dealer about the talk he said they had 1 cam problem & there was only a few in the hold system & it had been resolved.He showed me on his compter there was only 1 thing, it was a clip that holds rod that lets the tail gate open.This Dealer Is the largest in Ar. They Sell a lot of toyotas Landers Toyota Little Rock Ar.I pulled a 34 FT. Jayco Eagle 9500 # In The Ozark Mt. It did a good job for a 1/2 ton. I looked on chev. forum they do have problens. But i belive people make up lies & add to lies that has already been started.
  • So, ALL of the dozens and dozens of Tundra owners over at TS complaining of Tranny failures and other issues are liars/Trolls? Thanks for clearing that up for me. Funny how even Toyota themselves have acknowledged the Tranny/TC issue (aka Rumble Strip) and are frantically trying to fix it, meanwhile they are replacing Trannys with Remanufactured ones in people's brand new trucks. Admitting they may have the same or worse issues with the new one until they can figure out a permanent solution. Or maybe I just dreamed this? Then there is the dozens of less catastrophic issues, such as cheap build quality (interior painted plastic rubbing off, thin sheet metal denting easily, air vents not staying put, etc, etc, etc). Oh, and nice TripleTech frame you have there....LMAO, gotta love those rivets.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Best crash tests IIHS? Um, wrong, they were no better than GM's and worse (4 of 5 stars) in the NHTSA tests, but of course those tests don't count because they don't favor the Toyota huh?

    It is a known fact that the IIHS is the toughest crash test, as it is offset and focused on producing driver injuries. GM/Ford can use the NHTSA test for marketing. I would. ;)

    It's just harder to malign the Tundra, when it wins the tougher test. :blush:

    Tundra is the best now, as it was before.

    Here is the link to Trailerboats test:

    http://www.trailerboats.com/output.cfm?id=1210051

    DrFill
  • mule2mule2 Posts: 11
    anythingbuttoy. Do you own a toyota? Go look on Gm & ford forums. They are having problems, Vibrations & more.I have a bullinten about a noise the 4/wheel drive makes in shifting 2nd to 3rd. & 3rd. to 2nd.The bullinten stated prior year models including 2007.may be some folks go to different forums & talk about hear say.I was going to buy a ford diesel when they came out with new 6.0. a friend that worked for ford said they were having a lot of trouble with them I bought a new z71 instead & had lots of problems with it too I guss its hard to find a perfect truck.
  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    Weakest frame of any full sized truck. We'll see how happy people are after 100k when the truck sounds like a 69 Peterbilt Dump.

    Oh and if you get the smaller V8, enjoy your timing belt replacement bill.

    Mark.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    That's a pretty weak argument. :sick:

    Haven't 3/4 tons been built on similar frames since forever, and just recently gone to FBF?

    Are you saying the domestic HDs, that are in service now for hundreds of thousands of miles, aren't well made? :confuse:

    If it was good enough for the domestics, for decades, are you saying the domestics were building inferior machines? Did they actually make mistakes?

    DrFill
  • Doc,

    Thanks for the link to the TrailerBoats comparison article:

    "GMC 1500 SIERRA CREW CAB

    This is a sweet truck. Our unit was powered by the reworked 6.0L V-8 VortecMAX that kicks out 367 hp and 375 lb.-ft. of torque. The OHV powerplant features variable valve timing and Active Fuel Management. Its power is passed through the Super Duty four-speed OD automatic, and then on to the optional 3.73 axle. This truck had the beefy 9.5-inch rear axle that comes with the 6.0L and 6.2L engines. The rear suspension features semi-elliptical, variable-rate, two-stage leaf springs, and splayed-mount monotube shocks. Up front, the truck was equipped with a double A-arm IFS setup using coil-over monotube shocks. The P265/70R17 tires are mounted to 17x7.5-inch aluminum wheels, and are steered through a power-assisted, rack-and-pinion system. Power-assisted, four-wheel disc brakes with ABS are on all four corners.
    Here’s another vehicle for which axle gear and option package choices are key. As provided, our test unit had a maximum tow rating of 8500
    pounds — however, if it had been delivered with the optional NHT “maximum capacity trailering” suspension instead of the Z71 “offroad” suspension package, and the optional 4.10 axle, the vehicle would have been rated at 10,500 pounds. That’s a 2000-pound difference."


    Please explain to me why they would do a Towing comparison, and NOT use the Max trailering (with 4.10's)option on the 6.0 GMC? The Tundra had 4.30's, yet TrailerBoats used 3.73's for the GMC? Maybe it has something to do with the Tundra ads plastered on every other page of that magazine???

    Oh, and regarding the IIHS tests, which "tougher test" did Tundra win? Show me where the Tundra did better than the GMT900s, the Tundra did WORSE (4 stars vs 5 stars for everyone else) in the NHTSA tests. I also am curious if you would have the same opinion of their worthiness if the Tundra had done worse in the IIHS vs the NHTSA tests? Known fact? Yeah, among Toyotafolk.
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    This is about sales. Some of you got the comparison discussion closed down - don't do it here.

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    for now anyway....
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Since the post remains:

    GM didn't have their new truck tested, but Tundra beat everyoine else. As it did last time.

    If GM wants to use the NHTSA test, that's fine. But the IIHS offset crash tests is the higher standard. That's pretty obvious. :D

    DrFill
  • I think we can all agree that all new trucks are safe vehicles, especially compared to even 10 years ago. But the Tundra is not safer than any other comparably equipped trucks. And according to NHTSA tests...twice...it is less safe. With that said, I think safety is the least of the Tundra's weaknesses.
  • OK, the host wants us to talk about sales and marketing so we will. At Dr Fill's urging (and instigation) I took a break from my Ford F150 research and jumped on the Toyota Tundra web site. These guys are cute. Way too cute for me.

    After a quick look at their site, I clearly felt "channelled". There were very few stand alone options. One option, Option A , isn't even an 'option" because it couldn't even be deleted. Most options were bundled into packages. There was minimal color selection, e.g., I think you could only buy a standard cab non SR5 in one of four colors. There were very few "tech" options such as in final gear ratio, limited slip options, tranny coolers, etc. In fact there was no tech discussion such as with this engine option you also get a larger tranny cooler that were readily apparent.

    Rather than list the prices by each powertrain option you have to select a power train and then it shows up in the final tally. Want the much vaunted 5.7 over the 4.7 V8? No problem, once you do the math, thats a $1600 upgrade. Contrast this with Ford where the 5.4 V8 is only $900 more. With GM the 5.7 is even less of a bump up from the 4.3. Not only are these prices much more reasonable, the consumer gets to see them clearly and in isolation.

    Many options seem absurdly high in price for what you get. Performance options? Oh, yeh you can pick up a "TRD performance air filter" which is only a different element for $95! Want a long (ie., standard 8' length bed) with a standard cab without getting into the SR5 or the Limited? Nope. No can do.

    Now here is the mind boggling part. I assumed that I could "build" a Toyota to suit. Afterall thats what the web site said. When I clicked on a box to "live chat" with a Tundra rep about options, Mark W. told me that one can't special order a vehicle. Rather your dealer can try to find it for you. If he can't, so sorry.

    And whats with the additional step in Toyota distribution. They apparently sell the vehicles to "distributors" who then sell them to "dealers". What is the value to the consumer of this added, costly step?

    Ford? The sell direct to dealers. The options are all clearly priced and are available a la carte. Want an unusual set of options? No problem, we'll have it built and delivered in 6 weeks. Want to see actual dealer invoice pricing? No problem, we show it to you on the web.

    The more I look at Toyota's marketing the less I like. I think many American truck buyers will feel the same way.
  • kcram is right. This board is about SALES.

    Part of Tundra's relatively low sales compared to the Big 3 is undoubtedly its worse NHTSA crash test ratings than Ford, Dodge, and Chevy. Safety is an important factor in sales numbers. Buyers pay attention to things like that, and then they vote with their pocketbooks.

    1offroader
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Buyers pay attention to things like that, and then they vote with their pocketbooks.

    Boy, the desperation is intensifying over here.

    You are 100% right. Tundra is the only truck gaining share. The only truck that is up this year. Not a little bit. Like 50%! That's a resounding vote, if ever there was one.

    GM is very disappointed by the lack of love for their new truck, and the corresponding plant closings. That is another vote heard loud and clear! ;)

    Only two factors keep Tundra from AT LEAST overtaking Ram in sales.

    Capacity. HD/Diesel variant.

    In 10 years, Tundra will be at 400k+. Not even a question. I'm being very conservative.

    Toyota is doing EVERYTHING they want to do with the Tundra. The IIHS test shows the truck is more than safe, and the truck's safety is a strength, and more than just in it's latest test, in the features (standard) you get. :shades:

    DrFill
  • In 10 years, Tundra will be at 400k+. Not even a question. I'm being very conservative.

    LOL, keep dreamin'. Conservative? More like delusional. I'm willing to bet that you, or someone like you, also said that 14 years ago when the T100 came out, and again 8 years ago when the 1st Gen Tundra came out. In 10 years, someone will be saying it again when Toyota's next attempt comes out. Gotta give'em credit for persistence though.

    And even if you are correct and they do hit 400K in 10 years (which they won't, print this out and keep it in a safe place), they will still only be halfway to where Ford and GM are today.

    Oh, and you forgot one "factor" keeping Tundra from overtaking anyone....."Quality"!!!
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    When you buy a Toyota, not necessarily a Tundra, it is Toyota that decides what you need by their packaging. I mean what do consumers know, their bean counters have it all figured out with option packages. Custom build you say, well forget Toyota they just don't work that way. As long as consumers continue to support them, well there ain't no reason for them to change...unless of course they are trying to win over the truck market as if you hadn't noticed one of the things that GM and Ford have over Toyota is that you can order any combination of colors and options and do an actual build online.

    Hey what do I know....guess that's why I never bought a Toyota as I can't stand buying stuff that I don't need.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    Got to love the guy that wrote that letter:

    Dear Mr. Toyoda...

    Can't see Tundra doing much damage to F150 sales with their NHTSA crash rating and now the Consumer Reports "not recommended" labeling.

    You can spin it however you want but the fact remains Toyota and the Tundra no longer will receive a free ride at CR. How can that possibly help them against F150 sales?

    Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Best crash tests IIHS? Um, wrong, they were no better than GM's and worse (4 of 5 stars) in the NHTSA tests, but of course those tests don't count because they don't favor the Toyota huh?

    Accuracy, Accuracty, Accuracy... as an engineer you should know the value of that.

    This is an absolute embarrassment on the part of GM's Marketing Dept.
    check this link out and tell me what's wrong with this picture
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I think we can all agree that all new trucks are safe vehicles, especially compared to even 10 years ago. But the Tundra is not safer than any other comparably equipped trucks. And according to NHTSA tests...twice...it is less safe. With that said, I think safety is the least of the Tundra's weaknesses.

    It all depends on what tesing criteria are being used.
    The GMT900s rate better in the old fashioned NHTSA testing
    but...
    The Tundra is No 1 - alone - in the IIHS ratings.

    Now Mr and Mrs shopper going to look at these two fine vehicles are going to get conflicting data. The GMs are a little better on the Feds ratings but they 'appear' much worse on the IIHS' ratings. Net result ... confusion and no conclusion.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    You have to be aware of the background and organization of TMS in the States. it is different in that the plants and the manufacturing side do nothing but build.

    They then sell the vehicles to the regional distributor which is normally part of Toyota Motor Sales, except in the SE or Gulf States areas where two private individuals have secured that distributorships for themselves ( longer story don't ask ). But it works. Each region can set their own pricing structure and build the vehicles they way they see fit to meet the demands of that local market. In NE 4WD trucks predominate, Ditto WV and the Rockies. In NYC and/or DC or the coastal areas it's 2WD vehicles 4 to 1.
    The sales office ( TMS region ) or the SET/GST distributorship actually sell the vehicles to the local retail outlets.

    In this way it doesn't force NYC dealers to stock and order 4WD trucks when their market doesn't want them. Our store is the No 1 truck store in the Mid Atlantic region CAT. We'll sell well more than half as 2WD's since it's dead flat here and we get no snow or ice in winter.

    The pricing modules are designed and programmed by the regional offices for that specific area. That's why you have to enter a ZIP code.

    Now as to grouping options versus being fully ala carte that's another issue. Toyota and Honda don't do that.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Part of Tundra's relatively low sales compared to the Big 3 is undoubtedly its worse NHTSA crash test ratings than Ford, Dodge, and Chevy. Safety is an important factor in sales numbers. Buyers pay attention to things like that, and then they vote with their pocketbooks.

    Huh? Did you miss the early part of this year? This is a startup year in production. Total capacity at both plants could not even reach 300K ( 25,000 units monthly ) until last month. This has been a fantastic launch, with some stumbles of course, and tons and tons of additonal profit from the soaring sales.

    Having the top-rated truck for safety helps when the buyers are directed to the IIHS site or shown the 5 truck comparo. It solidifies in the buyers' mind the fact that the Tundra is the only truck on the market with all the safety features standard in every model. There's no skimping to hold the price down - or in the case of Ford not even available.

    The sales figures tell the story. It's getting out and being heard.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    We'll sell well more than half as 2WD's since it's dead flat here and we get no snow or ice in winter.

    That's good cause you don't want that unreliable rated 4WD causing you more grief.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I KNOW a domestic fan isn't commenting on quality. :blush:

    DrFill
  • Spyder, speaking of "accuracy", the IIHS link you provided shows the "Classic" GMT800's, not the GMT900's. Might want to read more carefully, or less selectively.
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