Hyundai Genesis Sedan 2009+

docrw · April 2007

I think one of the main benefits of Hyundai creating a "luxury" division/brand would be more about having a new factory dedicated to producing these cars rather than making all the cars at the same factory. I think you would get a higher quality car with that type of production facility. Luxury cars are not just about name plates and prestige, most people are not millionaires or status seekers, they want to buy the best car they can for the amount of money they can afford to spend. If you can afford to pay 40-50K for a car you want to feel like that money is being spent on a car that is appreciably better than a car that costs 30-35K. At least that is how I think. I don't care if someone says, look he's driving a Lexus, I care about knowing that I bought a quality car that will hold its value and perform the way I expect it too. I also want to get the best deal I can and, yes, if I can get a car with equivalent quality/amenities for less money I always will.

For a lot of people, resale value is important and cars with higher quality, or most likely higher perceived quality, have higher resale value. A 40K Hyundai is still a Hyundai and in 3-5 years when I go to trade it in it will not have the same value as a Lexus regardless of the actual quality of the car. Just remember whatever you save on the front end you end up losing on the back end when you trade it in. Unless you plan on keeping the car for 10 years or more. In which, case God bless you and best of luck with your extended warranties and repairs.

For these reasons, I don't think creating a luxury division is a foolish thing to do, and does not detract from the buying experience. You can always feel good about paying 20K less for a luxury Hyundai (whatever name they choose) than you would have for the equivalent Lexus. Plus, you can feel a little better knowing that car was produced at a state of the art facility with more skilled workers.

paisan · April 2007

Are the Nissans and Infinitis produced at the same plants?
Are the Acuras and Hondas produced at the same platns?
etc. etc.

I have heard the GMC and Caddy get the parts that are tighter tolerances than Pontiac and Chevy.

-mike

louiswei · April 2007

If Hyundai intends to make Genesis a luxury sedan then they'll need a luxury brand. If it is only going to be a full size RWD performance sedan (like the 300 and upcoming G8) then they don't.

Luxury cars won't sell with a mainstream badge and VW learned that lesson the hard way with the Phaeton. There is no "blue-collar" luxury or "blue-blood" luxury, the only luxury existing in the auto industry is "luxury brands" and spin it all you want, Hyundai ain't anywhere close of being one. Heck, some people still having the perception that Hyundai isn't on par with Toyota/Camry/Nissan and we all know that none of those 3 are "luxury brands".

Just ask yourself:

Would you pay $50 for a steak dinner at MacDonald's?
Should fancy restaurants starting selling $0.99 Whoppers?

I think the answer is very obvious...

paisan · April 2007

I would however pay $35k for a RWD V8 300hp+ Full Size Luxury car from Hyundai, without the Latte and white-glove service. I see it as that hometown bar and grill that has a great steak. Where you can wear jeans and a Polo shirt. I much rather chow down on that steak than going to Smith and Wolenski's or Peter Lugers, where it will cost me a lot more for the same steak, but they put my napkin on my lap for me etc.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think this is a niche market that isn't as crowded as the Luxo area but could be the next hot market.

-mike

captvege · April 2007

Ahh.. Guess what. As an attorney who make 6 figures a year and driving an Infinity. I purchased the Azera over the G35, TL, Accord, BMW 5 series, Avalon and Lexus. Why? Because I like the way the car drives. The fact that I bought the car fully loaded for $24,000 out the door, it was a no brainer. Nobody cares that it is a Hyundai. Most don't know until they ask. Then they look again and say, what a nice car.

I could afford any of the above cars, but it made no sense to purchase any of them. Hyundai won me over. I don't see why other would not eventually follow.

iluvmysephia1 · April 2007

and I echo his thoughts. Only my purchase case involves the "bottom o' the barrel" cars, the Civic's and Sephia's and Sentra's.

I read Kia's competitive literature about the Sephia and bought one when they didn't have the Long-Haul Warranty. Kia advertised the Sephia as the car college students could put through the wringer and it would come out ticking time after time. My '99 Kia Sephia started me on this Asian car route I'm still on. I loved the fresh new styling of the Sephia and still think it blows the Civic's styling to smithereens. I loved our next Kia just as much, our '01 Sportage 4x4.

I noticed good build in both vehicles for less cost. Hyundai does the same but appeals to even more buyers than Kia.

But the above post spells it all out, if the car drives right and you like it, who cares about an emblem? Hyundai can call this new luxury car a Genesis or a Hyundai Genesis and it will be a hit and sell in big numbers. I know they will design and build it right up front.

captvege learned what I learned in the late 90's, Hyundai and Kia are smart businessmen and great car builders and they have a need to succeed. They stated they wanted to be number 5 top automaker in the world by the year 2010. They're number 6 right now with a bullet.

mariner7 · April 2007

I doubt if Genesis will make much an impact on the market.
1) Despite years of trying, Hyundai's biggest sedans, Sonata and Azeri, are not major players in their segments. When Toyota and Honda launched Lexus and Acura, Camry, Accord, Civic and Corolla were already major league players. Toyota and Honda already proved they had what it takes. Hyundai hasn't proved it yet, in the US.
2) Toyota and Nissan had years of experience making RWD cars before Lexus and Infiniti. Remember Supra and 240Z. The earliest Corollas were RWD. Has Hyundai ever made a RWD? I'm not saying they can't learn, but they might not pull it off right away.
3) The luxury segment is tough. RL sales are abysmal, A6 is not much better. Even GS sales are skidding. In that segment, price is not a priority, more people are willing to pay for a badge they prefer. If Acura and Audi have trouble, can Hyundai do anything?
4) My guess is Genesis will end up competing, in price and segment, against 300C, G8 and Avalon, rather than 5 series, C class and Infiniti M.

drfill · April 2007

How much is too much for a Hyundai?

I personally say $25k is the limit, since you can buy plenty of excellent luxury cars for $30k+, with the luxury marque and service to match.

Is the argument "I want the luxury features (frills), but I don't want the luxury badge (another frill). I want the luxury power, but I don't want luxury service."

How many people fit into that niche? Not me.

If the car ends up being a 545i for $30k less, than you have something.

My bet is the car is not a success unless it sells 3k a month. Lexus ES and Acura TL sell 6k a month. I don't see it, also considering the Azera and Sonata V6 will dilute their own customer base for this type of vehicle. :confuse:

Much ado about nothing. Build a marque, then talk to me. It's no Chrysler 300. :P

DrFill

paisan · April 2007

I personally say $25k is the limit, since you can buy plenty of excellent luxury cars for $30k+, with the luxury marque and service to match.

Which luxury cars are out there for $30k with V8 and RWD? None I know of, heck even the 300c is well above $30k.

My bet is the car is not a success unless it sells 3k a month. Lexus ES and Acura TL sell 6k a month.

Oh you mean the Accord and Camry with some fancy badges on them? Again these are not RWD + V8.

-mike

jimsinkorea · April 2007

Hyundai is considered a luxury car in many parts of the world. After spending the last 15 years overseas it is a lesson in perception to read these forums. In Korea, a U.S. car is junk and in many parts of the world for that matter. Hyundai is a luxury car in many countries just not here because Americans have been conditioned into believing Hyundai is miles behind Toyota, Honda, etc... The fact is they are not; they build quality cars and can do so cheaper because of their labor structure.

In the States people just don't get it, which is a direct reflection of our very own car companies. The Azera has been around in Korea for a long time, under a different name. It has been the top luxury car for a long time until recently when Samsung, that's right, Samsung put out a more luxurious car. People here are concerned with social status and a BMW or Lexus etc... is part of that status. It isnt about a good quality car; it is about what everyone else thinks. I have owned many Kia's, Hyundai's, and even a Samsung and they have all been good cars. I wrecked once in a Kia and once in a Hyundai and walked away along with my 10 months old and wife.

Some people are just gullible and will lay down a lot of money for a name that they believe is raising their social status.

paisan · April 2007

Also they do make RWD vehicles, check out the Teracan, I only had wished they would bring it here.

-mike

louiswei · April 2007

Hyundai is considered a luxury car in many parts of the world.

Like which part of the world? I know in China, Japan, Taiwan and Europe Hyundai is no where close of making luxury cars.

In Korea, a U.S. car is junk and in many parts of the world for that matter.

American cars maybe junk in other countries but European like BMW, MB and Audi are still considered as the luxury cars in MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD.

Hyundai is a luxury car in many countries

Again, like which country? There are other people been to oversea you know...

jimsinkorea · April 2007

I don't understand why you are on this site, sounds like you either own a BMW or Audi or one of those European cars or you wish you did.

Austrailia, Canada, Africa just to name a few.

I will say that BMW and the like are great cars but you make it sound like they can fly. You are paying partly for a name and like I said Social Status...

paisan · April 2007

MB is probably at the bottom of the reliability tree, along with BMW not far above that, especially in terms of out-of-warranty electrical repairs.

-mike

snakeweasel · April 2007

What are you smoking??

I don't think he is smoking anything. The genesis does promise to give us a standard equal to Lexus but without the price.

still has a bad reputation among the vast majority of people,

That is very quickly changing. I know a few Honda/Toyota people that are considering a Hyundai for their next car.

When people think Lexus the company or even Lexus the word, it is the very definition of luxury,

Not even close.

What extra money?

Just like now the Genesis does promise to offer what other cars offer that cost a lot more.

Would anybody here who currently drives a luxury car buy a Hyundai instead of another luxury brand car?

Snakeweasel is raising his hand.

however I really don't think hyundai has luxury buyers as a target market. I think they will be targeting those who want something similar to a lexus but don't want to spend the $'s for a Lexus.

snakeweasel · April 2007

My whole family owns German and Japanese luxury cars and we'd all consider Genesis luxury cars, we'd never consider a Hyundai.

So you would never buy a Hyundai unless they called it something else? I have news for you no matter what they called it it still would be a Hyundai just like Lexus is still a Toyota. Are you really that shallow?

gamleged · April 2007

"still has a bad reputation among the vast majority of people,

That is very quickly changing. I know a few Honda/Toyota people that are considering a Hyundai for their next car."

I'm a Honda person, two Honda Accords, a bought-new 1977 and a one-year-old 1990 (owned both in tandem for about 6 years until the '77 wiring harness became too fried), that was TWO cars I'd owned within a period of almost THIRTY years and I've taken a chance on a Hyundai because I'm confident from what I've read that they've had it together quality-wise for nearly a decade...

snakeweasel · April 2007

Luxury cars won't sell with a mainstream badge and VW learned that lesson the hard way with the Phaeton.

IIRC the Phaeton started in the neighborhood of $65K so yes a $65K hyundai would be a tough sell but the top of the line Genesis will be $20K+ under that and start for well under half that.

Thats a big difference in the pricing between the Phaeton and the Genesis.

w9cw · April 2007

Time and history puts brand conscientiousness in perspective. For example, I remember when I, and other sailors, started bringing back National, and other Asian brands, hi-fi components and electronics back from Japan in the early '60s. During that time, GE, Philco, RCA, Magnavox, Admiral, etc. were American brands, all made in plants in the USA. Everyone scoffed at National (read: Panasonic), Sony, and other Japanese brands were brought into the country. Junk, junk, junk - everyone said.

Exactly the same thing occurred when Toyota, Nissan, and Honda first hit these shores. Most Americans laughed at them, and never perceived them as "real" vehicles. Look who's laughing now.

The gentleman from Korea has a very valid point and observation regarding us - the American consumer. Every American consumer should travel to other parts of the world to observe product perception and acceptance. Our arrogance and gravitas is well known worldwide - we could learn a lot from listening to and observing others.

joe97 · April 2007

VW Phaeton didn't sell, Hyundai Genesis won't sell.

Unless you're a fortune teller, this is speculation at best. The fact a new luxury brand would have ZERO brand recognition initially, and, there would be no guarantee the brand would do well and able to sustain. On the other hand, the Hyundai brand, despite its past history, has done a great job on becoming where they are today. Don't be surprised how many units Hyundai would be able to move, especially considering its favorable pricing against the competitors. The pricing, however, would probably adjust upward under the luxury tag. Keep in mind also, the initial target has not been set very high - 20K units/year IIRC for the North American market.

As noted earlier, I do believe Hyundai should and will setup its luxury division, but not in the near-term. Hyundai is doing a great job and has made dramatic improvements in a short time. Hyundai should keep doing what they are doing right now, and everything will fall into its place. Setting up the luxury brand at this point will neither harm nor benefit the automaker anymore than its current position. Keep improving its own (Hyundai) brand recognition and equity, the rewards will come later, at far more incentives and results.

RE: Phaeton VW made an incorrect assessment in the US, as few purchased a $60K+ Phaeton; however, I'd predict there are going to more than a few purchasing the $30K BH/Genesis (check the Azera demographics, and one would agree consumers are ready for a 30K+ Hyundai).

Hyundai is copying Toyota in everything it does, just look at the Camry grill on the Genesis!

To me, it bears little (actually, no) resemblance. In person, the car is what the Camry should have been, truth to be told. Hyundai did not go back to the drawing board after they saw the Camry last year. The same case can be said about the Sonata tail, which many perceive as a copy of the Accord, when in reality the design froze/finalized prior to the debut of the Accord in question.

joe97 · April 2007

Has Hyundai ever made a RWD?

Yes

5 series, C class and Infiniti M.

I think you meant to say E class

drfill · April 2007

My impression was the Genesis was V6 and V8, with the V6, approx. 270HP, "well below $30k", and the V8, at least 325HP+, several thousand above that. If it is V8 only, for less than $30k, please let me know.

As far as I can see this will be going after the same customer as the Chrysler 300, size, room, and power without the badge.

The 300 is a phenomenon that will be hard to duplicate, as is the design, which is easily better than this Genesis, although the Genesis is likeable, it will lose a style war to 300. Maybe the next 300 will take a step backwards? :surprise:

A V6 Sonata, an Azera, and a V6 Genesis will not work within $5-6k of each other. Hyundai has to get that together. :confuse:

I'm not getting why you bring up the ES and TLs heritage, since they are sold through a premium channel, and the Genesis will not.

That, to many, will make all the difference.

Some people will buy luxury features, just to have luxury features, and just don't care about presentation.

I think people here are trying to sell the fact that there are many people who want to buy a car full of frills from a dealership experience with zero frills.

It's like spending $30k, just to contradict yourself.

"I'd like my pancakes smothered in caviar, and my scrambled eggs a la carte, please. Do you have any Grey Poupon vending machines available?"

Riddle me this, riddle me that.....

The dumbing down of luxury. :sick:

Didn't the W8 Passat fall down this flight of steps a few years ago? I don't see the difference. This has a dedicated platform, but the Passat was actually a hip, in-demand car.

With Lexus-level marketing, lightning can strike twice. Making a great car is one thing. Selling it, with a Hyundai name, is something else!

Can Hyundai market a Hyundai like Lexus?

Uh........you'll have to get back to me on that one. Or is that another frill people just don't want to pay for?

DrFill

paisan · April 2007

The 300 is a phenomenon that will be hard to duplicate, as is the design, which is easily better than this Genesis, although the Genesis is likeable, it will lose a style war to 300. Maybe the next 300 will take a step backwards?

I didn't realize you had seen the plans of the Genesis beyond what we've seen in the concept car? 300 will probably take a step back especially with Chrysler being sold/near bankrupt!

I think people here are trying to sell the fact that there are many people who want to buy a car full of frills from a dealership experience with zero frills.

Exactly, but what does a dealership experience have to do with your car? I spend aproximately .0001% of the life of my car in a dealership, why would I care if they gave me white glove service? Of my last 4 brand new cars I've bought, I've spend a grand total of 5-6hrs at the dealership and most of that was when I was buying them. Any warranty repairs I've done (few and far between) have involved an after hours drop off and pickup, and most "working" folks do it that way. Like I said I think this car is being or should be aimed at the blue-collar/working class folks who want luxury at a value price, a nich market, why try to take on the big-boys when you can just open up a totally new market segment?

Didn't the W8 Passat fall down this flight of steps a few years ago? I don't see the difference. This has a dedicated platform, but the Passat was actually a hip, in-demand car.

Have to look at the VW demographic and the W8 setup. I'm not sure what the pricing was on the W8 passat, but I think it was priced fairly high, also they were marketing it as a FWD vehicle to people who were in the Passat market, these folks liked relatively fuel efficient FWD cars who if they were spending for the W8 would jump to the A6 or a BMW 5 series rather than stick with a VW FWD vehicle. Anyone know what the pricing figures on the W8 were at the time? I don't know what they were.

-mike

snakeweasel · April 2007

Genesis is likeable, it will lose a style war to 300.

Style is a lot subjective. It might lose the style war to the 300 for some but will win it over the 300 to others.

I think people here are trying to sell the fact that there are many people who want to buy a car full of frills from a dealership experience with zero frills.

Its not a contradiction at all. The time you spend in the dealership is practically nothing with the time you will spend inside the car. You will spend a few hours at the dealership when you buy the car as opposed to hundreds of hours a year inside the car. So its fair to expect some not to want to pay thousands more for a better service for 0.1% of your experience with the car.

snakeweasel · April 2007

I'm not sure what the pricing was on the W8 passat, but I think it was priced fairly high,

IIRC it started at about $40K and that was 4-5 years ago.

nycdc911 · April 2007

VW's W8 Passat bombed recently and cost $37,900 in 2003 with virtually all amenities including AWD standard. Hyundai needs to learn from VW's mistakes with the W8 and Phaeton. After all, people refused to buy a luxury VW even though they knew VW/Audi had years of experience making great luxury cars like the well reviewed Phaeton/A8 and Touareg/Q7. VW as a well respected European brand had a much higher chance of success than Hyundai, much joked about new Korean brand that's still known for making the cheapest cars in America.

rockylee and paisan think blue collar working class people will somehow be able to afford a $35,000 car, and that Hyundai can become the same thing as Lexus, I think there's no way either of those things happens. Others on this thread think Hyundai can only sell a car costing up to $40,000 with a new luxury brand. So let's say both groups of people are right. The luxury brand advocates won't buy an expensive Hyundai while the working class luxury shoppers if they exist will buy it. So then calling it a Hyundai is only selling to a fraction of the potential market. Nobody on here has said that they'd refuse to buy this Hyundai Genesis if it dropped the Hyundai name and was called something different as part of a new luxury Genesis brand. And why would they, owning a luxury brand car can only be a positive, even to the so called blue collar luxury shoppers.

So a luxury brand Genesis M sedan would potentially sell 30,000 cars a year: 15,000 to luxury owners and 15,000 to economy owners looking to move up.

Calling the same car a Hyundai would only result in 1/3 the sales, 10,000 among economy owners looking to move up but also considering true luxury brands and outstanding cars like the G35x.

The real question is, why would Hyundai want to sell 1/3 as many cars by calling it a Hyundai instead of a new luxury brand like Genesis? And following the Lexus formula, with a luxury division Hyundai/Genesis can jack up the prices quickly if the car is a big hit and make even more money, while obviously Hyundai would never be able to do that. So not only would they sell 1/3 as many cars calling it a Hyundai, they'd be making far less profit per car in the future with no hope of growth. Also calling it a Hyundai would be killing off any hope of a future luxury division since there'd be no way to top the Genesis while still keeping the first luxury division car affordable to their customers.

Let's not be naive, this isn't a discussion about what's best for a certain rare consumer like rockylee or paisan. What's best for the COMPANY'S PROFITS, WHAT SHOULD HYUNDAI DO FOR ITS SHAREHOLDERS?

snakeweasel · April 2007

VW's W8 Passat bombed recently and cost $38,000 fully loaded

IIRC the W8 passat fully loaded was well north of 49 grand, thats a lot for a car with basically 2 v4 engines attached to it. That had a lot to do with the demise of the W8. Plus it was a WV Passat.

rockylee and paisan think blue collar working class people will somehow be able to afford a $35,000 car

They buy them all the time. A top of the line Avalon will be close to 35 grand and those are sold all the time.

Calling the same car a Hyundai would only result in 1/3 the sales, 10,000 among economy owners looking to move up but also considering true luxury brands and outstanding cars like the G35x.

Your logic is flawed but I have no time to enplain it now so remind me and I will talk about this later.

nycdc911 · April 2007

http://www.europeancarweb.com/longtermers/0308ec_2003_volkswagen_passat_w8/

"european car drove the Passat W8 last year, and the first sentence out of staffers mouths was "What a great car." The second was "Can we have one?" Much to our delight, the answer was yes. Our long-term 2003 Passat W8 recently arrived fully loaded, as do all the W8s. Its $37,900 MSRP may take many aback (a $38k VW?), but once you tally up all the features you get, the price seems right on target."

Well according to multiple articles, a fully loaded W8 Passat cost $37,900 and nowhere near 50 grand as you claim, but please post a link to this 50 grand VW Passat or admit your mistake/lie and refrain from posting falsehoods again.

Even those advocating Hyundai not start a luxury brand admit that luxury owners will not buy the Genesis if it's called a Hyundai and the luxury brand advocates agree with that. However a new luxury brand like Genesis could attract many entry level luxury owners, especially from Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac, Lincoln, Saab, Volvo. And obviously calling it a new luxury brand name like Genesis will not prevent any of the so called blue collar luxury shoppers from buying it if they would have bought it as a Hyundai. If it's the same car they're getting, everyone would prefer it have a prestigious luxury division name instead of a Hyundai which sells the cheapest cars in the civilized world.

So 15,000 luxury owners could buy a new luxury division Genesis M, plus 15,000 economy owners moving up.

None of the luxury owners would consider a Hyundai, and of the 15,000 economy owners moving up, 5000 will choose the added prestige of a luxury brand with outstanding cars like the Infiniti G35x. So that's 10,000 cars in a year, 1/3 the sales of calling it a luxury brand name.

Also, let's look at future pricing. Since journalists are already going crazy over this car and Hyundai is planning on making it better handling than BMWs with same engine size but roomier than Lexus' flagship LS460 for a fraction of the price, reviews should be outstanding. Sales should be great if it's the start of a new luxury division which in itself will cause tons of press and excitement. Calling it a Genesis M will allow Hyundai/Genesis to increase prices quickly within the first few years while Hyundai won't be able to do that. Lexus launched LS400 for $35,000 in 89 and in 94 it cost $50,000. If Genesis lux brand does the same, extra $15000 means 3-4x as much net profit per car. Along with 3x the sales, Hyundai/Genesis would make ten times as much money compared to calling it a Hyundai.

And also remember that 95% of luxury buyers are completely uninterested in this thread and any Hyundai, so don't be fooled just because there are a few people here who think a $40,000 Hyundai will sell. There are a number of people on this thread alone who disagree and have history and common sense on their side when they advocate a new luxury brand, and 20 times as many people who are luxury buyers not even bothering with an economy Hyundai thread agree since they'd also only buy luxury brands.

Hyundai wants to make money. A Hyundai Genesis would flop just like VW's $37,900 W8 Passat or Phaeton. Obviously the best way to succeed is by starting a luxury division but selling cars for $20,000 less than the competition like Lexus did, buyers will flock to a new Genesis luxury brand just like with Lexus, it's a proven formula for success.

History tells us what flops, and history tells us what works. A basic understanding of human nature and the auto industry tells us the same thing.

paisan · April 2007

I think the biggest issue of starting a new division is the cost and time. I'm not opposed to it, but the cost to start a new dealership network I would think would outweigh the gains. You aren't going to get any of the BMW/MB/Caddy folks to buy a Hyundai even under the veil of a "luxury brand" so I just feel it's a waste of cash. If however this car takes off and really is a hot seller, at that point they should look at spinning off the car and launch a brand.

I think we are all generally on the same page here despite some people feeling strong on one side or the other.

I can go either way but from a business POV they should see if it takes off before jumping in with 2 feet.

-mike

nycdc911 · April 2007

In addition to a new Genesis luxury division, Hyundai and Kia should combine into just one company named Kia Motors. Kia and Hyundai have way too many cheap cars that compete against each other in the same price range like the failing GM and Ford/Mercury. Kia/Hyundai should simplify their product line like Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and other successful car companies.

Not only do Kias compete against Hyundais, Hyundais compete against Hyundais, and Kias against Kias. Just check out how many different cheap Kia SUVs have the same price, it's insane. Slowly they could phase out excess models and save money, then just combine the two brands under the Kia name.

Hyundai is just a horrible and hard to pronounce name, it sounds way too much like Honda except worse which is what people think of Hyundai's cheaper products. Even Hyundai's logo looks like a Honda logo that got run over and mangled.

Kia is actually the oldest car company in Korea, and the name sounds cool like Korea without the "or". Kia means "rising from Asia" and it goes well with a luxury brand named Genesis.

New logos could be made out of an oval or diamond surrounding a K, or a G that looks like an almost closed circle with a radius line.

Kia/Genesis could be like Toyota/Lexus and be positioned to become the world's #1 carmaker. Kia Motors wouldn't even need a lower priced line like Scion since it's already cheap.

nycdc911 · April 2007

Again history shows us the right path. Hyundai can't spin off the Genesis into a luxury brand AFTER it becomes a hot seller. Lexus introduced a brand new car LS400 that revolutionized the auto industry. The LS400 wasn't a second generation Toyota and Lexus wouldn't have succeeded if it was. Nobody cared about the ES250 which was a rebadged Camry and gone in 2 years. The Genesis is the second coming of the LS400, a RWD/AWD V8 top of the line luxury sedan for $20,000 less, history tells us it can't fail if it is the beginning of a new luxury brand.

And history tells us a Hyundai Genesis will fail like the W8 Passat and Phaeton, nobody even knew those cars existed, and yet another Hyundai would get lost in the shuffle and completely ignored by luxury buyers.

Creating a whole new luxury car company generates an incredible amount of buzz and excitement, and would more than triple sales. Genesis V8 rivals Lexus' flagship LS460 and blows away anything by Acura, Infiniti, Lincoln, Saab, Volvo, their customers will flock to Genesis for a better car at a fraction of the price, along with intelligent BMW/MB buyers and Toyota/GM/Ford owners moving up.

Since Hyundai is eventually going to spend money to start a luxury brand, what's the point in delaying it other than losing a ton of sales, profit, and market share for the Genesis? Hyundai would have to top its Genesis to start a luxury brand later and that would be damn near impossible, they can't sell a 400-500 hp car for $50,000.

Hyundai has some of the worst dealerships around, that's why they're being dropped left and right. Hyundai and Kia customers don't have money and the salespeople have no clue how to sell luxury cars. They should just convert or build new Genesis dealerships and hire experienced luxury salespeople or train the best ones to sell the new Genesis M sedan and X SUV (rebadged Veracruz). Like I said, they should eventually combine Kia and Hyundai into just Kia Motors along with the Genesis luxury division.

drfill · April 2007

Hyundai is selling this concept as if it were a new Merceds or Lexus model, but it will be a Hyundai.

Hyundai, and VW for that matter, are two peas in a pod. They've built there reps on selling basic cars to average people.

They can't just start selling $30-40k cars because they feel like it, and expect it to fly. They aren't Toyota. :confuse:

Avalon is nothing like the Genesis. Avalon is a full-sized Toyota family sedan, with upscale features. It is not marketed as a budget Lexus, or a discount something. It is a luxurious full-sized car. that's all.

Hyundai is not Toyota. They are not comparable at this point. Maybe 10-15 years from now. Maybe. Probably not.

The V8 Genesis will base price somewhere in the $33-35 range, and commonly MSRP south of $40k. So it maybe $5k less than the Passat was.

How much will you spend on a Hyundai? That's the only question that matters.

Hyundai sold less than 27k Azera last year.

$25k is gonna be the limit for many, many people.

Drop the Azera, and it will definitely help the Genesis! I don't see how these two could work together.

DrFill

nycdc911 · April 2007

Genesis and Azera work together if they're in separate divisions, Genesis should be the first car in a new luxury brand. Azera is the real Avalon competitor, a full size FWD car at a cheaper price. And since Avalon is Toyota's most expensive model, Azera should be Hyundai/Kia's most expensive model. To be #1, you have to beat #1, and offering Toyota/Lexus like products at a much cheaper price is an unbeatable way to do it, and a Hyundai is not a Lexus like product and never will be.

Honestly, I can't even believe we're having this discussion. A car that's roomier than an LS460 with the same engine size, and better than anything Acura, Infiniti, Lincoln, Saab, Volvo, has EVER made, is going to be sold as a HYUNDAI?!? This really is like selling caviar at McDonalds. And people actually think this is a good idea?? Are these the same people who thought the name Hyundai and a smushed Honda logo were good ideas? They should let me run their company, Kia/Genesis would be #1 within a decade.

diemusik · April 2007

Kia is actually the oldest car company in Korea, and the name sounds cool like Korea without the "or". Kia means "rising from Asia" and it goes well with a luxury brand named Genesis.

The only problem with the name is that in military term, it's an acronym for "Killed In Action". I don't think that's such a great name for an automobile company.

diemusik · April 2007

I think the biggest issue of starting a new division is the cost and time. I'm not opposed to it, but the cost to start a new dealership network I would think would outweigh the gains.

That's exactly what I think too. Those of you who think creating a luxury brand will increase sales of the Genesis seem to forget how expensive it is to launch a new brand. This will inevitably increase the price. We are all enthusiastic about this car not only it's a great car, which it is, but also at a great price.

According to Korean media, Hyundai doesn't have an immediate plan to create a luxury brand; they wanted to do so within a few years but dropped that plan due to labor unrest at their Korean plant (we call the labor union communists) and other business considerations. I wish I could find the news so that I can post the link although it will be in Korean

.

Hyundai was interested in purchasing Jaguar from Ford a few years ago. Would that be a better idea than creating a new brand? Would that be the silver bullet for Hyundai? What do you all think? Certainly, people will find Jaguar more appealing than a neo-luxury brand.

nycdc911 · April 2007

Today it was reported that Hyundai is planning a new luxury brand, maybe they've been reading this forum. They should get everything set before they launch the Genesis sedan in a year and a half, or push back the launch until the luxury division is ready. I hope they name it Genesis, then get rid of some models that compete with each other and eventually merge Hyundai and Kia under Kia Motors.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/208139/hyundai_plans_luxury_of- - fshoot.html

"Hyundai plans luxury offshoot
Ambitious Hyundai is looking up
13th April 2007

Chiefs want upmarket brand, similar to Toyotas Lexus

It's no secret that the Korean company is aiming to shift upmarket with a raft of new models. But top brass at the firm are now considering the launch of a new luxury offshoot, just as Toyota has done with its Lexus-badged cars.

Its sister marque Kia is already well established as a value brand, and Hyundai has launched a determined bid to raise the standard of customer service across its network with a series of specialist training workshops for its dealership staff. However, an all-new premium offshoot would be an obvious route to creating an even more prestigious image. It could be used to sell vehicles such as the roadgoing version of the sleek Genesis Concept we revealed in Issue 955."

54gradsteds · April 2007

I have owned an '85 Cressida, and a '95 Avalon. I sold the former at 155,000 miles for $4200, and the buyer had it 4 years. I still have the '95 Avalon, and it has 178,000 miles on the clock. I had a rebuilt steering rack installed and had an engine oil leak fixed. Only my remote entry system has failed, but, as a pre-war baby, I still remember how to use a key to open a door, so I couldn't be persuaded to spend a ton of money for a little thing like that. I had every intention of replacing the Avalon with another one, but after I had walked into a Hyundai showroom just on a whim, examined the Azera, and had taken it for a test ride, I was just blown away with the build quality, features, roominess, power, etc...and equally importantly, the PRICE ! . I figure I walked away with a quality purchase equal to or surpassing an Avalon for at least $5,000 less. And, in case you folks haven't looked at the Avalon forum, they are STILL having problems with a quirky transmission, which apparently Toyota won't admit even exists.

I've read PAGES of this discussion about Genesis and Hyundai in general, and I am appalled at how many contributors are so damned hung-up over a NAME !!! Suppose the Azera had appeared on the market with absolutely NO advertsing, NO badges of any kind, and NO way in the world of identifying it as a product of Hyundai Motors.... The only thing to do was to examine it for features, build quality, etc.... What would the folks who are so damned hung-up on a name say then? These are, I believe, the same people who cheerfully want to see an item of clothing with a "designer" label on it on their backs, say a $60.00 Tommy Hilfiger shirt, made in Bangladesh by some poor woman who earns 25 cents an hour in a sweatshop, and won't buy one from L.L. Bean for less than half the price, even though the Bean garment is every bit as good or better. I had a chance to buy another Toyota, but I'll be damned if I'll spend that kind of dough on something which doesn't give me the quality that I found in my new Azera!

w9cw · April 2007

nyckc911 wrote: "Hyundai has some of the worst dealerships around, that's why they're being dropped left and right. Hyundai and Kia customers don't have money and the salespeople have no clue how to sell luxury cars. They should just convert or build new Genesis dealerships and hire experienced luxury salespeople or train the best ones to sell the new Genesis M sedan and X SUV (rebadged Veracruz). Like I said, they should eventually combine Kia and Hyundai into just Kia Motors along with the Genesis luxury division."

Now your sounding like Don Imus! Something must be catching in the NY area.

Saying "Hyundai and Kia customers don't have money . . ." may have been true at one time, but not now. For example, one of my colleague's husband is a Toyota Service Manager at a large dealership in Palm Beach, FL (not really an economically-strapped community), and guess what kind of vehicle she drives: a new Kia Sedona - on his recommendation no less. My neighbor who is a retired cardiologist drives a Hyundai Sonata Limited, and I could go on. I know quite a few people with incomes north of $100K that drive Hyundais.

And why would Hyundai want to be sold under Kia Motors, since Hyundai bailed Kia out of bankruptcy some years ago, and owns Kia - Hyundai is the parent company, not vice versa.

docrw · April 2007

No, Hyundai is selling this car for people who want luxury features but can't afford luxury cars yet. What was Toyota in the late 80's when Lexus was launched? A lot of people scoffed that the maker of the Corolla was trying its hand at luxury. But they earned their stripes the hard and smart way, they offered more for less with a very high level of dealership attention. Still, the people who bought Mercedes did not jump ship to Lexus for several more years, rather it was those who aspired to buy Mercedes but could not afford them who jumped on the Lexus bandwagon. Lets not rewrite history here. Toyota was not the big dog in the late 80's like they are today. In fact, Hyundai may be in better financial position now then Toyota was then. Toyota was able to launch Lexus not because their revenues could support it but because they new they would have the support from the Japanese financial institutions if things failed.

I'm not suggesting that Hyundai can jump in and play with the big boys now, but if they do it right (the Lexus way) and aim for those who are buying ES's and give them something close to an LS for a little more or the same as that ES they could do well. Then as their reputation grows so can their prices. It might take a decade or more to get to the same level as Lexus but if you don't start you'll never get there.

I think you should take a step back and look at the big picture. Things never stay the same and perceptions change. Five years ago, the people who are buying Hyundai's now would only buy Toyota's or Honda's. Hyundai could not sell a car for more than 15K. Now they can sell cars for >30K, the volumes may not be what Toyota's are but they are growing. Just remember the race does not always go to the swiftest.

A luxury Hyundai division is not the folly you think it may be. I believe that if you think with your head and not your loyalties you would see that.

mariner7 · April 2007

Toyota was not the big dog in the late 80's like they are today.

Toyota didn't have a luxury presence, but was already big back then. My guess is Accord and Camry, along with Taurus, were already the top dogs in family sedan, and Civic and Corolla among the top in economy class. Where are Sonata and Elentra today? They're nowhere near what Accord et al were back in the 80's, despite years and generations of trying.

Ford came out with Taurus specifically to fight Camry and Accord. Ditto Escort in fighting Civic and Corolla! Has any car ever had the mission of fighting Sonata and Elantra?

Which Hyundai is among the leader of its class? Not one, Hyundai hasn't proved it can produce a hit of any kind. And now it wants a V8 luxury sedan. I read Hyundai had wanted a luxury brand for many years now, and its own dealers told HQ in Korea to cool it! So its dealers had doubts.

In many respects, Hyundai resembles Detroit 3 more than Nippon 3. In residual value, Sonata is nowhere near Accord/Camry/Altima territory. And Hyundai sells a much larger % to rentals than Nippon.

When MB drops Chrysler, there might not be another 300, which borrows some tech from previous E. Any potential buyer should insist MB assist in the development of next 300, which is the lifeblood of Chrysler. That might be a price MB must pay for riddance.

drfill · April 2007

Apparently, my recent posts were not read by all (shame on you!). :sick:

My issue is selling this Genesis as a HYUNDAI. HYUNDAI is the problem, not the car. The car may be the next Lexus LS. But if you sell it as a HYUNDAI, you got no chance. As in zero.

And selling ther Azera and another vehicle on top of it, one of the cars will suffer greatly. It appears Hyundai sees that handwriting on the wall.

I don't have a problem with Hyundai starting a luxury channel. It probably is the right time, and a smart move.

Acura REFUSES to learn from their mistakes. And Infiniti has always struggled to develop a proper flagship, as has Acura. And Cadillac, for that matter.

If Hyundai wants to copy the Lexus formula, go 'head! They'll need another vehicle to complement the Genseis (not the Azera), but, at this point, I'm tired of Acura. They may need a little help with a Going out of Business sale. Acura has no direction, no focus.

Comparing Hyundai (today) to Toyota (1989) is fair, except for the fact that Toyota had built a solid reputation for the previous decade of building quality cars. They were established as a leader in the industry.

Hyundai has had what....2-3 good years? They're not there....yet.

DrFill

prosource1 · April 2007

Many of you, unlike Toyota and many others, are severely underestimating a company that has increased its sales 320% in the last few years and was the only company to have survived the Korean economic downfall. Oh thats right, they not only survived it but they bought up Kia (51%). They have also soared in quality ratings, although controversial. Hyundai's plants are the worlds most advanced and they have very, very deep pockets. If this works, it works, If it doesn't, it doesn't. Some of you just can't accept the world is changing and the likes of Korean companies like Samsung, LG, Hyundai and Kia are poised or already have entered the upper echelon of powerful companies. I am amused at how entrenched and how opposed to progress many of you are. What world are you living in? Do some of you even get the idea of change and progress? Do some of you even understand that when a company has a vision and launches out like this, its a good thing. Keep one thing in mind: The Genesis and the emergence of a sister marque to Hyundai is nothing but good news to me, Joe Carbuyer. It forces the marginal companies to either shape up or get out and it forces the dominant players to become even more competitive and reconsider they quality, inflated prices and decontenting policies.

paisan · April 2007

Which Hyundai is among the leader of its class? Not one, Hyundai hasn't proved it can produce a hit of any kind. And now it wants a V8 luxury sedan.

I see hyundai as a solid hitter, you know the one who hit's doubles and is a good base runner, as well as a good defensive player. Yeah he doesn't smack the home runs or get all the girls at the China Club after the game, but he's a solid player and gets things done.

-mike

iluvmysephia1 · April 2007

that Hyundai is a smart player and driven to succeed and you'll start to understand why Hyundai will be successful supplying the luxury car buyer, calling it the Genesis or the Hyundai Genesis.

Yeah, I realized how archaeic and slow the American car buying public was to realizing new car making talent when I purchased my Kia Sephia in May of '99. It was mostly online commenters that were out-of-touch with reality, thinking that buying a Kia was akin to getting incurable TB. The Sephia product was good and the Sportage product was even better and Hyundai is more popular than Kia. So why is it unthinkable that Hyundai moves upscale in product content? And even if it is unsuccessful Hyundai will not vanish from the scene nor will Kia Motors. Think of them as automotive powerhouses if you're not already and you'll have a cup of sanity back.

Been down this block several times or two by now and buying for brand recognition is not only dumb it's way too lemming-like for me. How about actually comparing the automobiles attributes here and not the brand name?

jjordan2 · April 2007

doesn't create a luxury brand. Not right now at least. I have a feeling Hyundai KNOWS their brand image isn't that great right now.. so investing all that money and time and energy into a "luxury" brand that everyone will see right through will be pointless. I think the way Hyundai is approaching it is perfect. Slowly rebuild your image, prove to everyone that you can make great cars at a great price with great warranties.. and go after the "i want something luxury but don't want to spend the money on image cuz i don't really care about image" crowd is just fine.

I think Hyundai's aim is squarely at the Chrysler 300 crowd.. or maybe even the Acura TL.

sergio19 · April 2007

54gradsteds,

Man, I couldn't have said it better myself. I totally agree with you!
My freinds drive the following cars:
BMW 5 series
BMW 3 Series
G35 Coupe Sport package
Acura MDX
Nissan 350Z
Camry SE

I myself drive the Azera and I TOTALLY love it!
It's all about "IMAGE". I was and now am appalled at myself for having been that way.
Not anymore and am a Dam proud owner of Hyundai.
Next on my list is the GENESIS and it'll be the fastest sell Hyundai will see!

Regards,

rockylee · April 2007

Calling it a Hyundai, 10,000 are sold

I'm sorry nycdc911, you unfortunately under estimating this cars impact. I think it will sell easily 50,000-100,000 units if it's a good as it is on paper.

Rocky

rockylee · April 2007

Plus, you can feel a little better knowing that car was produced at a state of the art facility with more skilled workers.

That isn't true at all......The workers making a Toyota or a Lexus pretty much have the same skills. The Lexus like Cadillac to take care of Paisans post also get the better parts because the tolerances are slightly tighter.

Cadillac, Buick, back in the day Oldsmobile, GMC, Saab, get better parts which are a fraction
(millionth of a millimeter) tighter than Pontiac, Chevy, Saturn, Hummer.

The same workers make the parts. My father made parts for Cadillac and Chevy and the rest of the GM brands like Opel and Holden. If the part didn't pass the BOC spec it went into Pontaic/Chevy bin.

Rocky

rockylee · April 2007

I would however pay $35k for a RWD V8 300hp+ Full Size Luxury car from Hyundai, without the Latte and white-glove service. I see it as that hometown bar and grill that has a great steak. Where you can wear jeans and a Polo shirt. I much rather chow down on that steak than going to Smith and Wolenski's or Peter Lugers, where it will cost me a lot more for the same steak, but they put my napkin on my lap for me etc.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think this is a niche market that isn't as crowded as the Luxo area but could be the next hot market.

-mike

I 100% agree. VW, doesn't make blue-collar luxury cars and the Passat, was a nice car but it wasn't ever a luxury car the way Hyundai, has made the Genesis. VW, also was ranked among the worst for reliability, and service which didn't help things and they never made a performance car outside of the Phaeton which was way over priced even though they were nice. VW, charged a lot of dough and you didn't get much for it. The Passatt for god sakes had manual seats !!!! :surprise:

Rocky

rockylee · April 2007

I could afford any of the above cars, but it made no sense to purchase any of them. Hyundai won me over. I don't see why other would not eventually follow.

You sound like a smart guy and like paisan, I, snakeweasel, etc we don't give a rip about badges. We want the best car for the best price. Hyundai, is going to offer us that option in 2008' as a 2009 MY.

louiswei, for some reason is convinced a car needs a emblem to be successful as a luxury car. I could care less if I'm not invited to the cocktail party's because of what car I drive. I don't associate myself with snotty people as I'm sure the others who like this car don't either. "Stuffy" people are mainly those who inherited money and the working millionaires I know (family members) don't throw away hard earned money on badges or named brand clothing that is marked-up to give them a self confidence boost. My cousin use to rip the name tags off of his jeans because he didn't need another guys name on his [non-permissible content removed] to make him feel like he belongs. His message as I got older stuck in my memory and I think like him a alot when it comes to material items.

Rocky

Hyundai Genesis Sedan 2009+

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