but not being able to get any of the dealers to help me out. Even more, the "fixes" suggested by Ford were just band-aids. You read the description of my problems. Fluid additives? C'mon, Ford
A friend of mine had a 2004 Explorer V8 that had tranny problems so I see where you are coming from. He dumped it for a loaded '04 TrailBlazer. OTOH, I have an '06 Explorer V6 which has been flawless for the 13k miles we've used it. It is a different tranny than those past models though.
akirby - it strikes me that you must work for and/or supervise Ford's 'rumor mill' marketing department a seemingly never ending series of unkept and/or late arriving 'promises'. Ford NEEDS to actually do something - not talk about it!
Stuff that makes the car go is all covered in powertrain warranty?
I seriously wonder if batteries, alternator, serpentine, and timing belts are covered. I wonder if the starter cables, ignition, and other wires are covered. If you can't start you can't go. If your battery dies because the alternator isn't charging the electrical system will die and the car will die on the road while running (at least it did in my domestic) How about the brakes, hard to go if you can't stop safely. Is it okay to "go" if your gas tank is leaking because of a bad O-ring? You can "GO" without an AC, but it's HOT in CA, goodluck with that! Also, an A/C repair could cost close to just as much as a transmission replacement, potentially. There are lots of EXPENSIVE repairs and "have to have in order to go" items not covered in the powertrain I believe.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I'm not going to get into a battle, because that's completely pointless. I'm simply going to state the blindingly obvious: many of those are wear-and-tear items and can deteriorate at different rates depending on driver/road conditions, and manufacturers would be foolish to warrant such items (and would soon go broke doing so).
We get that you don't like & don't want to buy domestic vehicles. Domestic vehicle vs import vehicle quality is not the topic of this discussion, so we need to move on.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
My statement wasn't about imports or domestics in general, but more specifically that a 100K powertrain warranty with 3 years bumper to bumper is still only marginally better than a 4 year bumper to bumper with 50K powertrain.
Yes, many of the items I mentioned are wear and tear items. But they shouldn't wear or tear on year 3 and one day! Nor mile 36,101. Would anyone argue that all warranties shouldn't be AT LEAST 4 years and 50K "bumper to bumper." I realize that bumper to bumper is not longer the same as it might of been 15 years ago, with exclusions galore in the fine print, but still, most everything I mentioned should last at least long enough to outlive the warranty.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
You're forgetting that the unkept promises of the past were under totally different management (pre-Fields and Mulally). In the past Ford would publicly announce things and then not deliver or deliver late. They're now much more tight lipped about new technology (publicly) these days and all this info is coming from inside sources. I think they've learned to under promise and over achieve.
And, your point is off-topic - we are focusing specifically on discussion and questions about midsize sedans and not on manufacturer quality in general, or manufacturers' warranty programs.
Please review the list of vehicles mentioned in the discussion header to help keep conversation on-track.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
manufacturers would be foolish to warrant such items (and would soon go broke doing so) manufacturers obviously do these kind of things to represent a quality and/or faith in their own products and mostly because they HAVE TO as a function of sales. It was, after all, the Koreans that effectively started this kind of thing in an attempt to 'live down' some rather questionable products sold not that many years ago. The consumer, in turn, perceives a level of quality that may or may not be there. As far as 'going broke', be careful of what you wish for, these long term warranties have no value if there is no company left to stand behind it. Given Cerebus' apparent (and rumored) plans to sell off Chrysler in pieces, how much exactly do you suppose their warranties are worth?
I'm sure that Ford and Hyundai are both making great strides in quality when it comes to their midsize sedan offerings. The intital quality reports sure seem to bear that out. However, I for one won't be convinced until 2012, when I can check the long-term reliability ratings of the 2006 Sonata and Fusion. If they are still rated as good as Honda and Toyota vehicles of the same vintage, then I'll certainly consider whatever midsize sedans Hyundia and Ford are offering in 2012, so long as they are still receiving high "initial quality" ratings.
I think they've learned to under promise and over achieve.
Being a "Ford guy" myself I see exactly where you are coming from ackirby. However, the general consumer needs a lot of convincing to go back to a domestic vehicle at this point. That is where the real challenge lies. The Accord and Camry are still very well executed products and all the others really need to show the Honda and Toyota faithful that they need to try the other guys too.
The recent good press will help but it ain't gonna work on its own. And I have yet to see anything from the big three, marketing wise, that would make me say WOW I gotta have one of those! So maybe leaking this info will help too but they do need to deliver while it's still on people's minds and that doesn't leave a whole lot of time between leak and release.
If they are still rated as good as Honda and Toyota vehicles of the same vintage, then I'll certainly consider whatever midsize sedans Hyundia and Ford are offering in 2012, so long as they are still receiving high "initial quality" ratings.
So what would you buy now? The Accord isn't tops at CR or J.D. anymore IIRC. It is still high in the ratings but don't you want the best? :P
Folks like the editors of Edmunds.com disagree with you on that one. They have multiple Hyundais as their "Most Wanted" for 2007.
Also, the facts disagree with you. Take a look for example at the EPA charts--Sonata is #1 in its EPA class. Elantra (considered by EPA a mid-sized car) is near the top of its EPA class.
You also forgot some categories that are important for mid-sized sedan buyers--not everyone is focused on power, for example. The Sonata has class-leading standard safety equipment. Important for many people. I think it may also be tops in this class in interior room--also important for many people. Also tops (tied with Optima and Galant) for warranty coverage--important for many people.
Coming off of that experience, I had trouble seriously considering a less expensive Ford sedan, or any Ford for that matter.
Bender, what's the old investment saying, "Past experience is no guarantee of future performance?" Even so, given your experiences with the Explorer, I, too, would be leery of Ford products.
Our experience with past and present Ford products has been quite good for the most part -- a fuel pump here, an alternator there, regular maintenance items, brakes, batteries, tires (but no abnormal wear).
We now have an exceptional Ford, Lincoln, Mercury dealer in town, Sherwood of Salisbury (Md.) and that played a big part in our decision to buy a new 2007 SEL AWD V6 Fusion from them. Many times a car or truck is only going to be as good as the dealer that backs it up. Apparently, you had a problem in that area as well, unfortunately for both you and the FoMoCo.
Previous bad experiences often tip the scale when it comes time to purchase a car, either new or previously owned. The fine track record for Accords and Camrys serves their manufacturers well and is a huge contributing factor to their continued position as sales leaders in the mid-size sedan segment.
It's highly unlikely that any of the other manufacturers will overtake Accord and Camry unless Honda and Toyota really screw something up, especially in the power train department.
Although styling, handling are important, the most crucial factor of vehicle ownership may well be reliability. Except for poor in-city mileage, 14.8 mpg, our Fusion has been perfect for seven months and its first 3,700 miles. Yes, I'm knocking on wood.
Will it be that way at 37,000 miles or 107,000 miles? No one knows but the longest journey begins with a single step.
I was referring to quality and it wouldn't matter if the Fusion was twice as good as the Camcords in every possible category - they aren't going to win over Camcord loyalists overnight.
Actually, Ford would win loyalists overnight from all manufacturers if they were able to be TWICE as good! Let's look at what twice as good as an Accord would be... (A 5 year old design by the way).
488 HP and 430 lb/ft of torque while getting 40/60 mpg, oh yeah baby! :P
A warranty of 6 years or 72K miles, with a powertrain warranty of 8 years and 120K miles! Oh yes, more please!
A price tag half that of the Accord... so I should be able to get a top of the line Fusion for around $14K out the door! I'm buying!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Quality is in the eyes of the beholder. While I don't see the Fusion as non-quality, it doesn't match up to Camry or Accord. (IMHO, and I guess a lot of "CamCord" buyers agree)
You make it sound like there are NO Sonatas sitting on dealers' lots beacause every one they make is being snatched up quickly, and they can't make enough of them.
Not.
Where did I ever say that? You're twisting my words. What I said were facts - capacity constraints and higher demand of I4s. Confirm with Hyundai if you'd like.
The latest June sales report the Sonata up 28% so looks like they are making up the 4 cylinder shortage.
I purchased a 1992 Civic at 166K miles and took it to 200K, and it ran just fine.
My friend had an early nineties Accord with about 275K, and he was nearing 300K and going strong last I heard. I think 300K Accord's and Civics, AND Corolla's and Camry's are a dime a dozen moreso than counted on one or two hands!!!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
If you peruse the Hyundai ownership discussions here, you'll see many reports from owners with over 100k reliable miles on their Hyundais over 5-7 years. That's enough to build a reputation for long-term reliability, IMO.
100K miles and 5 to 7 years maybe be ENOUGH to show reliability to some people, maybe even the average person, but to the person looking for some of the best stuff out there, you have to look to cars that reach 15 years and 250K+ plus regularly. That is Honda and Toyota quality.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
KD, beauty (styling) may be in the eyes of the beholder but quality (fit and finish) is something that can be measured. It's quantitative not subjective: The paint is flawless or it's not; the body seams are aligned or they aren't. An imperfection is an imperfection. All cars usually have one or two (more?). I have given our 2007 Fusion the once over with a fine-tooth comb, metaphorically, several times and have found no flaws. I find the workmanship to be perfect, at least so far.
Are there things that I would like to see improved or added? Of course. A light in the glove compartment would be nice. Is that a quality issue? Not hardly. Would I rather see a shark fin antenna rather than one with a mast? Absolutely. But that, too, is not a quality item, more of a personal preference.
A piece of molding that falls off or is misaligned is a quality item, a flaw, something that can be scored, rated. Where it is placed is subjective. How it is attached is not.
Again, Accord and Camry usually score highly in the area of quality. They both have high standards. But so do the Fusions, if ours is typical, and I believe that to be the case.
for any buyer that has ever had a lemon-like vehicle in the past is reliability, dependability, and quality.
Unless you have time and money to burn.
For me, the following are crucial:
Power to economy ratio.... I want maximum power for every gallon of gas my engine will drink. If you have the most HP AND the most MPG, then it's a complete no brainer to me.
Price to quality to reliability to dependability to warranty ratio. Again, a warranty should be irrelevant to a well-built vehicle.
Interior quality of materials and craftsmanship. I love the interior quality and build of an Audi, but Honda's are so much more ergonomical and user friendly. They are both excellent examples of how to do interiors properly.
And lastly... (but not necessarily least) Handling and fun factor on the twisties.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
If 1992 Accords and Camrys are a "regular" occurance, how come I don't see hardly any of them on the road, when so many were sold?
The "average person" would need to drive a car for 20 years to hit 250k miles. Few people stick with a car that long. If they could, before rust catches up.
I owned a 1991 Caravan and it was rock-solid reliable. Looked and drove like new when I sold it after eight years. Would it have held up for another 7 years? Maybe. Would I want to own it for another 7 years? Nope. My needs had gone far beyond that vehicle in that time. If a Dodge can hold up for a long time, why pay the premium for an Accord or Camry just because you want to drive it into the ground? At the end, you'll have a car that is worth almost nothing. So save your money up front and buy the lowest-priced car that meets your needs--like a Fusion or Mazda6 or Sonata maybe. They'll all last many years with proper care.
probably less than .5% of population drives a car for 250k. why would you drive 1 car for so long? no one buys a car for that kind of reliability any more.
i had acura cls and honda prelude and both cars had multiple tranny issues. gladly i bought a extended warranty, but man those cars really sucked. especially my 01 cls. 3 blown trannies! i live in acura board, and man both cl and tl's tranny broke down faster than 80's hyundai excel!
only honda decent enough to last 150k in my family was my sister's 96 civic. but finally broke down at 160k, she later traded to solara which really isn't a bullet proof car.
bottom line, honda and toyota quality is highly highly overrated IMO. acura cls probably had 10 times more tranny issues than all of recent hyundai combined. my 99 prelude had a lemon tranny as well. accord and civics were ok, but i was never satisfied with my 03 accord. it was a 1st year car, but had too many little annoying problems. not a big problem, but annoying problem. that's why i traded my car to MDX which has been decent so far, but way way too thirsty.
bottom line, no brand has a bullet proof quality. you are a dumb homer if you think your honyota will last forever.
So if the 09 Fusion gets a gasoline twin turbo direct injection 2.5L I4 with 260 hp and better fuel mileage than a V6 Camcord plus an updated exterior and interior you'd consider it?
300K FAIRLY trouble-free miles, not completely trouble free. It's gonna cost you some repair and maintenance costs to get some Honda's and Toyota's to 300,000 miles (but some will get there w/o spending a dime other than maintenance). But that "some" isn't all that much with Honda's and Toyota's. Your repair bills will be small, and very infrequent.
I'm not sure Donald Trump nor Bill Gates could have afforded getting my mid 90's Dodge to get to 300K miles, let alone 100K.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I think 300K Accord's and Civics, AND Corolla's and Camry's are a dime a dozen moreso than counted on one or two hands
You thinking it does not make it so. I did a search for used Accords on autotrader, There were none with 300K mi, within 50 miles of me...this would include a metropolitan area with population over 2 million. There was only one that was over 200K miles (206,000).
For the Camry there were also none at over 300K. The two highest were at 262K and 211K (these were the only ones over 200K).
For sake of comparison, since the Fusion is too new, I looked for the Ford Taurus. There was one with over 200K mi (230,000) within 50 miles.
I did not look for the compacts, as this is a midsize discussion .
If the updated exterior and interior is free of bargain basement plastics and parts, or panel gaps, yes, I'd consider it as long as Ford matches Hyundai's warranty.
I might even settle for GM's lessor warranty.
It also should be cheaper than a Camcord, since I know resale value will stink.
I'd also want to make sure the new Fusions EPA ratings match the real world withing the standard and typical 20% BS factor. So I'd need a full tank test drive, or around 350 miles.
And lastly, to consider a Ford, I'd need to know I'm getting a rental vehicle for free from the dealer everytime I have to bring that baby in during it's nice long warranty.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
For the sake of argument... would you advertise that you are trying to sell a vehicle with over 200K miles? I think if I was paying for the advertisement I'd discretely leave off that information and let the pictures and test drive speak for themselves (though most all callers did ask how many miles were on the vehicle).
I bet most of the sellers on Autotrader don't list the mileage when the mileage isn't a good sales point.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
probably less than .5% of population drives a car for 250k. why would you drive 1 car for so long? no one buys a car for that kind of reliability any more.
Ever heard of the USED car market?
There is no such thing as resale value without it!!!! There are people buying and paying for used cars out there. There are people that can't afford to buy new. There are people like my current wife who 5 years ago needed a car for $3,500 or so dollars and found a wonderful 92 Civic with 166K+ miles on it. It was fantastic for the next couple of years (perfect no, but still economical to keep running). We kept if for over two years, got it to over 200K miles, and sold it for $2,700 cash. Not bad.
So it might take 3 owners or more to get to 300K and 15 years typically, but its going to take a Honda or Toyota to typically find a buyer (with some resale value) that 2nd and 3rd time on the market. Maybe even a 4th or 5th.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
It's gonna cost you some repair and maintenance costs to get some Honda's and Toyota's to 300,000 miles.....Your repair bills will be small, and very infrequent.
That's what all those Toyota Camry owners thought right before Toyota told them they had to pay for a new engine after theirs sludged up. But I guess that's fixed now with the class action lawsuit.
Again, who says a car can only have one owner to reach 300K miles? Who says the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th owner can't reach the 20 year or 300K mark?
Furthermore, why do you think Honda and Toyota enjoy superior resale value? Magic? Or is it being able to enjoy relatively trouble-free performace after 10 years and 100K?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
wolverine, you say you've owned all these Acura's and Honda's that were not reliable. So I have a question. Why do you keep buying them? Maybe the other brands will be even worse?
Quality is like a fine wine, some people don't get it. Feel of the materials, fit and finish, extra touches, smoothness of the engine, economy etc. The Accord trumps, a premium is paid over others and for good reason. It is a hot seller and for a lot of people a no-brainer when looking for a family sedan.
It nearly was for me, but AWD and turbo was the trump card.
For what it's worth, the engine sludge problems are not slowing Toyota or Lexus down. You may not elect to purchase a Toyota product, but a lot of people have elected to make the Camry their next purchase. Good grief one can't spit out the window without hitting an ES350.
I think the strong resale value on Accord and Camry comes from the overall solid quality and reliability of the cars, and the fact that much of bhe car buying public hasn't wised up yet to the fact that there is little difference in quality and reliability now across almost all the mid-sized offerings. I just laugh when I see some of the resale prices on Accords and Camrys. I can get a really nice new car with a new-car warranty and all the latest safety and convenience features for less.
The ALG resale values are more than just "predictions". If you go to a bank to lease a car what do you think they use to determine the residual value? A crystal ball? ALG may be wrong but if they are then a lot of financial institutions stand to lose a lot of money.
Did the article say it only happened to domestic cars? Did you ever think just for a second that it might be due to poor maintenance? Or do you really think Hondas and Toyotas run forever with no maintenance ever?
Your bias is clear and since you're not willing to listen to hard facts I guess we'll just stop here.
I just laugh when I see some of the resale prices on Accords and Camrys. I can get a really nice new car with a new-car warranty and all the latest safety and convenience features for less.
What you need to think about is, people (like me) would rather drive a two year old Accord, than a brand new Fusion, and they may be laughing at you. This equals high resale. I guess you have to be one of "us" to understand.
I guess someone would have to be part of the "us" group to understand. It makes no sense to me. To me, buying any used car is a gamble. never know what the previous owner did or didn't do to it. and many times, they sell their cars because they know something you don't. I swore off buying used cars long, long ago.
No way in the world I pay MORE for a used car that somebody possibly abused the hell out of, realized what he did, and decided to unload it, than I would for a brand new, 100k warrantied car. just because it had an "H" on the grille, or the toyota logo.
No way in the world I pay MORE for a used car that somebody possibly abused the hell out of, realized what he did, and decided to unload it, than I would for a brand new, 100k warrantied car.
In reality, most used cars are not abused before they are traded in, or returned from lease. I have a couple of relatives who have never owned a car past the warranty. It's like they think when the warranty runs out, things will automatically start breaking. These cars are maintained by the dealer, and taken care of (detailed monthly). They would be a great used car for anyone. There are plenty of great used cars out there.
And if it has an "H" on the grill, you don't need a warranty, right?
Comments
A friend of mine had a 2004 Explorer V8 that had tranny problems so I see where you are coming from. He dumped it for a loaded '04 TrailBlazer. OTOH, I have an '06 Explorer V6 which has been flawless for the 13k miles we've used it. It is a different tranny than those past models though.
If you change that statement to it isn't 2000 anymore, I'll buy it. Otherwise I'm not buying your sales pitch.
I had a 1995 domestic for one.... and have driven a few rental fodder vehicles up to 2003, for two!
I seriously wonder if batteries, alternator, serpentine, and timing belts are covered. I wonder if the starter cables, ignition, and other wires are covered. If you can't start you can't go. If your battery dies because the alternator isn't charging the electrical system will die and the car will die on the road while running (at least it did in my domestic) How about the brakes, hard to go if you can't stop safely. Is it okay to "go" if your gas tank is leaking because of a bad O-ring? You can "GO" without an AC, but it's HOT in CA, goodluck with that! Also, an A/C repair could cost close to just as much as a transmission replacement, potentially. There are lots of EXPENSIVE repairs and "have to have in order to go" items not covered in the powertrain I believe.
We get that you don't like & don't want to buy domestic vehicles. Domestic vehicle vs import vehicle quality is not the topic of this discussion, so we need to move on.
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I totally agree but it's not realistic unfortunately. :sick: A 500 HP V8 in one of these cars along with AWD would be really cool too.
Yes, many of the items I mentioned are wear and tear items. But they shouldn't wear or tear on year 3 and one day! Nor mile 36,101. Would anyone argue that all warranties shouldn't be AT LEAST 4 years and 50K "bumper to bumper." I realize that bumper to bumper is not longer the same as it might of been 15 years ago, with exclusions galore in the fine print, but still, most everything I mentioned should last at least long enough to outlive the warranty.
My issue with GMs powertrain warranty is that for most drivers it is only a 5 yr/70K mile warranty because they don't drive more than 12K miles/yr.
And you're forgetting that it would take MULTIPLE failures of non-powertrain components to equal ONE powertrain failure from a cost perspective.
Please review the list of vehicles mentioned in the discussion header to help keep conversation on-track.
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manufacturers obviously do these kind of things to represent a quality and/or faith in their own products and mostly because they HAVE TO as a function of sales. It was, after all, the Koreans that effectively started this kind of thing in an attempt to 'live down' some rather questionable products sold not that many years ago. The consumer, in turn, perceives a level of quality that may or may not be there.
As far as 'going broke', be careful of what you wish for, these long term warranties have no value if there is no company left to stand behind it. Given Cerebus' apparent (and rumored) plans to sell off Chrysler in pieces, how much exactly do you suppose their warranties are worth?
Being a "Ford guy" myself I see exactly where you are coming from ackirby. However, the general consumer needs a lot of convincing to go back to a domestic vehicle at this point. That is where the real challenge lies. The Accord and Camry are still very well executed products and all the others really need to show the Honda and Toyota faithful that they need to try the other guys too.
The recent good press will help but it ain't gonna work on its own. And I have yet to see anything from the big three, marketing wise, that would make me say WOW I gotta have one of those! So maybe leaking this info will help too but they do need to deliver while it's still on people's minds and that doesn't leave a whole lot of time between leak and release.
So what would you buy now? The Accord isn't tops at CR or J.D. anymore IIRC. It is still high in the ratings but don't you want the best? :P
Also, the facts disagree with you. Take a look for example at the EPA charts--Sonata is #1 in its EPA class. Elantra (considered by EPA a mid-sized car) is near the top of its EPA class.
You also forgot some categories that are important for mid-sized sedan buyers--not everyone is focused on power, for example. The Sonata has class-leading standard safety equipment. Important for many people. I think it may also be tops in this class in interior room--also important for many people. Also tops (tied with Optima and Galant) for warranty coverage--important for many people.
Bender, what's the old investment saying, "Past experience is no guarantee of future performance?" Even so, given your experiences with the Explorer, I, too, would be leery of Ford products.
Our experience with past and present Ford products has been quite good for the most part -- a fuel pump here, an alternator there, regular maintenance items, brakes, batteries, tires (but no abnormal wear).
We now have an exceptional Ford, Lincoln, Mercury dealer in town, Sherwood of Salisbury (Md.) and that played a big part in our decision to buy a new 2007 SEL AWD V6 Fusion from them. Many times a car or truck is only going to be as good as the dealer that backs it up. Apparently, you had a problem in that area as well, unfortunately for both you and the FoMoCo.
Previous bad experiences often tip the scale when it comes time to purchase a car, either new or previously owned. The fine track record for Accords and Camrys serves their manufacturers well and is a huge contributing factor to their continued position as sales leaders in the mid-size sedan segment.
It's highly unlikely that any of the other manufacturers will overtake Accord and Camry unless Honda and Toyota really screw something up, especially in the power train department.
Although styling, handling are important, the most crucial factor of vehicle ownership may well be reliability. Except for poor in-city mileage, 14.8 mpg, our Fusion has been perfect for seven months and its first 3,700 miles. Yes, I'm knocking on wood.
Will it be that way at 37,000 miles or 107,000 miles? No one knows but the longest journey begins with a single step.
No one knows but the longest journey begins with a single step.
-thene
Actually, Ford would win loyalists overnight from all manufacturers if they were able to be TWICE as good! Let's look at what twice as good as an Accord would be... (A 5 year old design by the way).
488 HP and 430 lb/ft of torque while getting 40/60 mpg, oh yeah baby! :P
A warranty of 6 years or 72K miles, with a powertrain warranty of 8 years and 120K miles! Oh yes, more please!
A price tag half that of the Accord... so I should be able to get a top of the line Fusion for around $14K out the door! I'm buying!
Not.
Where did I ever say that? You're twisting my words. What I said were facts - capacity constraints and higher demand of I4s. Confirm with Hyundai if you'd like.
The latest June sales report the Sonata up 28% so looks like they are making up the 4 cylinder shortage.
My friend had an early nineties Accord with about 275K, and he was nearing 300K and going strong last I heard. I think 300K Accord's and Civics, AND Corolla's and Camry's are a dime a dozen moreso than counted on one or two hands!!!
100K miles and 5 to 7 years maybe be ENOUGH to show reliability to some people, maybe even the average person, but to the person looking for some of the best stuff out there, you have to look to cars that reach 15 years and 250K+ plus regularly. That is Honda and Toyota quality.
KD, beauty (styling) may be in the eyes of the beholder but quality (fit and finish) is something that can be measured. It's quantitative not subjective: The paint is flawless or it's not; the body seams are aligned or they aren't. An imperfection is an imperfection. All cars usually have one or two (more?). I have given our 2007 Fusion the once over with a fine-tooth comb, metaphorically, several times and have found no flaws. I find the workmanship to be perfect, at least so far.
Are there things that I would like to see improved or added? Of course. A light in the glove compartment would be nice. Is that a quality issue? Not hardly. Would I rather see a shark fin antenna rather than one with a mast? Absolutely. But that, too, is not a quality item, more of a personal preference.
A piece of molding that falls off or is misaligned is a quality item, a flaw, something that can be scored, rated. Where it is placed is subjective. How it is attached is not.
Again, Accord and Camry usually score highly in the area of quality. They both have high standards. But so do the Fusions, if ours is typical, and I believe that to be the case.
Unless you have time and money to burn.
For me, the following are crucial:
Power to economy ratio.... I want maximum power for every gallon of gas my engine will drink. If you have the most HP AND the most MPG, then it's a complete no brainer to me.
Price to quality to reliability to dependability to warranty ratio. Again, a warranty should be irrelevant to a well-built vehicle.
Interior quality of materials and craftsmanship. I love the interior quality and build of an Audi, but Honda's are so much more ergonomical and user friendly. They are both excellent examples of how to do interiors properly.
And lastly... (but not necessarily least) Handling and fun factor on the twisties.
I have to agree that quality is quantitative.
The "average person" would need to drive a car for 20 years to hit 250k miles. Few people stick with a car that long. If they could, before rust catches up.
I owned a 1991 Caravan and it was rock-solid reliable. Looked and drove like new when I sold it after eight years. Would it have held up for another 7 years? Maybe. Would I want to own it for another 7 years? Nope. My needs had gone far beyond that vehicle in that time. If a Dodge can hold up for a long time, why pay the premium for an Accord or Camry just because you want to drive it into the ground? At the end, you'll have a car that is worth almost nothing. So save your money up front and buy the lowest-priced car that meets your needs--like a Fusion or Mazda6 or Sonata maybe. They'll all last many years with proper care.
i had acura cls and honda prelude and both cars had multiple tranny issues. gladly i bought a extended warranty, but man those cars really sucked. especially my 01 cls. 3 blown trannies! i live in acura board, and man both cl and tl's tranny broke down faster than 80's hyundai excel!
only honda decent enough to last 150k in my family was my sister's 96 civic. but finally broke down at 160k, she later traded to solara which really isn't a bullet proof car.
bottom line, honda and toyota quality is highly highly overrated IMO. acura cls probably had 10 times more tranny issues than all of recent hyundai combined. my 99 prelude had a lemon tranny as well. accord and civics were ok, but i was never satisfied with my 03 accord. it was a 1st year car, but had too many little annoying problems. not a big problem, but annoying problem. that's why i traded my car to MDX which has been decent so far, but way way too thirsty.
bottom line, no brand has a bullet proof quality. you are a dumb homer if you think your honyota will last forever.
I'm not sure Donald Trump nor Bill Gates could have afforded getting my mid 90's Dodge to get to 300K miles, let alone 100K.
You thinking it does not make it so. I did a search for used Accords on autotrader, There were none with 300K mi, within 50 miles of me...this would include a metropolitan area with population over 2 million. There was only one that was over 200K miles (206,000).
For the Camry there were also none at over 300K. The two highest were at 262K and 211K (these were the only ones over 200K).
For sake of comparison, since the Fusion is too new, I looked for the Ford Taurus. There was one with over 200K mi (230,000) within 50 miles.
I did not look for the compacts, as this is a midsize discussion
I might even settle for GM's lessor warranty.
It also should be cheaper than a Camcord, since I know resale value will stink.
I'd also want to make sure the new Fusions EPA ratings match the real world withing the standard and typical 20% BS factor. So I'd need a full tank test drive, or around 350 miles.
And lastly, to consider a Ford, I'd need to know I'm getting a rental vehicle for free from the dealer everytime I have to bring that baby in during it's nice long warranty.
I bet most of the sellers on Autotrader don't list the mileage when the mileage isn't a good sales point.
Ever heard of the USED car market?
There is no such thing as resale value without it!!!!
There are people buying and paying for used cars out there. There are people that can't afford to buy new. There are people like my current wife who 5 years ago needed a car for $3,500 or so dollars and found a wonderful 92 Civic with 166K+ miles on it. It was fantastic for the next couple of years (perfect no, but still economical to keep running). We kept if for over two years, got it to over 200K miles, and sold it for $2,700 cash. Not bad.
So it might take 3 owners or more to get to 300K and 15 years typically, but its going to take a Honda or Toyota to typically find a buyer (with some resale value) that 2nd and 3rd time on the market. Maybe even a 4th or 5th.
That's what all those Toyota Camry owners thought right before Toyota told them they had to pay for a new engine after theirs sludged up. But I guess that's fixed now with the class action lawsuit.
Furthermore, why do you think Honda and Toyota enjoy superior resale value? Magic? Or is it being able to enjoy relatively trouble-free performace after 10 years and 100K?
Did I mention it's not 1990 anymore?
I'll take predictions of the future with a grain of salt.... thank you very much.
Does Automotive Lease Guide also recommend the rate of return for the S&P 500 for the next 3 years?
It nearly was for me, but AWD and turbo was the trump card.
However, I don't think a 3 year old Accord will cost you as much as a comparable domestic mid-sizer. (True market value, not advertised costs).
Furthermore, I don't think the quality and reliability gap is as close or as closed as you'd like to think.
But most importantly, that brand new domestic won't be worth much in 3 years, and that Accord will hardly depreciate at all from year 3 to 6.
Your bias is clear and since you're not willing to listen to hard facts I guess we'll just stop here.
What you need to think about is, people (like me) would rather drive a two year old Accord, than a brand new Fusion, and they may be laughing at you. This equals high resale. I guess you have to be one of "us" to understand.
No way in the world I pay MORE for a used car that somebody possibly abused the hell out of, realized what he did, and decided to unload it, than I would for a brand new, 100k warrantied car. just because it had an "H" on the grille, or the toyota logo.
each to their own I guess.
In reality, most used cars are not abused before they are traded in, or returned from lease. I have a couple of relatives who have never owned a car past the warranty. It's like they think when the warranty runs out, things will automatically start breaking. These cars are maintained by the dealer, and taken care of (detailed monthly). They would be a great used car for anyone. There are plenty of great used cars out there.
And if it has an "H" on the grill, you don't need a warranty, right?