BTW, I thought you said you'd be buying your last new car shortly.
Yes I will buy a diesel SUV, probably an X5d BMW or the ML320 CDI. If GM or Ford offered a diesel SUV built by a UAW plant It would be given an equal opportunity. Then I will sell this gas guzzling Sequoia and start taking trips around our beautiful country. Our only car is a 1990 LS400 that still runs fine. In a league with a Caddy I would say. Chances are that Ford or GM will wait 4-5 years after the market softens to add diesels. That is not the fault of the UAW. It is the fault of those over paid executives. If my health is good I may be still driving in 20 years. I expect a vehicle to last that long if cared for properly. Then again who knows. This is my 4th new vehicle in the last 3 years. I find things I don't like I sell em on Craigslist.
With your strong feelings about the UAW, I cannot imagine how you could buy anything not UAW built. What did your family say when you bought that Acura? Did you feel a bit hypocritical?
I gagrice, did have lapse of disloyalty to GM. I as I explained before which I know you read GAGRICE, got burned by the largest dealer network in the U.S. named AUTONATION, and after spending several hours with this person and that person from GM, and nothing accomplished I was so pissed off that I spent like $350 with Equifax, and had all illegal bank inquires removed from my credit. It took me 3 months and a lot of misery but I got em' removed. Now the difference between you and I gagrice, is Rocky has only purchased just one foreign automobile nameplate and every car I've owned was made in the U.S. of A. The Acura TL, you are attempting to dog me out over was made in Marysville, Ohio and had a domestic content of 65% . I was looking at the Lexus, IS 350 but the fact that it wasn't nearly as "American" as the Acura TL, and the fact that you couldn't get a 6-speed in the Lexus IS 350, and the IS didn't have the build quality, room, or fuel economy, handling that the TL posessed made my choice even easier. Yeah I could of purchased a Ford or Chrysler, right ??? They offered nothing in the ELLPS, segment I was shopping in. Dad, and I didn't speak for like 3 or 4 months because he was so angry at me but he eventually softened up and accepted what I did. I did like the Acura TL, and will always be a fan of this car because it's indeed a fine automobile and the 2009 has even more "Gadgetology" than the 2005, I owned. I guess I opened the door to that one, eh ??? You opened my closet door to my skeleton, and appluad you for that !!!!
I would think that the UAW member would rather have someone rag on how lazy and worthless they are and still buy what they build. If you buy a UAW built car you have the right to give em H--L. At least Bob and I are buying vehicles that put money in the pockets of Americans.
-See Above Post !!! I wouldn't doubt if I've owned more "American Made" automobiles in my lifetime than either you or Bob, so what do you have to say to that ??? I bet I come at least close !!!! :P You were buying Made in Japan, Landcruiser's at my age weren't you ???? :P
More than likely my next vehicle will be built by BMW in the USA.
Why would you waste money on a mediocre vehicle like the X5 ??? I have 2 friends that own them and for that kind of money just I expected well more !!!! Save some money and get a much better vehicle the next SRX, but I guess that wouldn't go with your California, celebrity !!!! :surprise:
It is impossible to buy any vehicle that is 100% made in the USA. The higher the US content the better.
True, but it sounds like you aren't practicing what you preach if you are going BMW. What's is the X5's domestic content ???? 5% ???
I don't think of Canadian or Mexican as Made in the USA. Though they are closer neighbors than Japan or Germany.
I'd rather buy a automobile from Canada, than Mexico. I'd rather buy a German or Japanese, made car than one made in Mexico, but again if the Mexican Made, vehicle had a much higher domestic content and supported more american jobs then the car coming from Canada or Mexico. I guess again that was part of my reasoning behind buying the Acura TL, at that juncture in time.
Why would you waste money on a mediocre vehicle like the X5 ??? I have 2 friends that own them and for that kind of money just I expected well more !!!! Save some money and get a much better vehicle the next SRX, but I guess that wouldn't go with your California, celebrity !!!!
Well the major reason is it will be available with a diesel in the next month or two. I did test drive the SRX and Escalade. I liked the 2006 and previous Escalade. The seats in the new ones feel like cardboard. And they have no immediate plans to build a diesel. I may as well keep the gas guzzler I have now. The X5 is built in the USA. Or should I say assembled from German parts, in the USA. You also forgot that I would have traded my 2005 GMC PU for a 2007 Denali if the dealer had not tried to hi-jack me. So the Big 3 have the UAW and some dealers that are not helping their cause. I know you for some reason think that Mexicans cannot build a car as well as a UAW or Canadian factory. My 98 Suburban was a great vehicle for the 7+ years I owned it. I should have not traded it for that GMC Hybrid PU. I would still have it. Much better put together than the 2005. Best thing about the GMC was the Bose sound with XM radio.
The SRX feels cheap... Not nearly as well built as the Sequoia. Not sure that was the UAW or who. The new Sequoia is not as nice as the last one either.
What did the UAW build in 1964 to compete with the Toyota Landcruiser? What did the UAW build in 1969 to compete with the VW Bug? You see the US automakers have not been able to offer what people want for a long time. I did own probably a dozen different pieces of Detroit Iron before I bought the new LC in 1964. I got most of them from the two salvage yards I worked at after school. I don't think I could name them all without really thinking back. I am sure they were all built by UAW workers.
I'd definetly would of purchased a 2008 CTS, pal but if you aren't aware buddy I've been going through a divorce for the last 16 months and my ex wife to be emptied out around $75,000 in liquid cash from my bank accounts. I was on strike for 2 months at Pantex, at the time of getting served papers and discovered my spouse forged my name to a lot of contracts, forged my name on a car, sold my paid-off pick-up, and drained all assets I worked for my whole life. To put it simple I ended up dead broke because I trusted my spouse who I thought loved me and thankfully she didn't get my 401K, and I had to resign from Pantex, a $60K+ position while on strike to acquire that money as I had a $1.00 to my name and owed many people money thanks to her. I wanted to be straight-up and honest with you to make you cognizant of my situation. So that is the main reason why Rocky, quit posting in the 2008 CTS forum as I no longer have the finances to acquire that car as much as I'd love to own one ! However I do think Acura, might of possibly raised the bar once again but I'd buy the CTS, because it's UAW-MADE and in some area's it's nicer than the TL, like the grill looks nicer on the CTS, than TL.
My moral to my story is my biggest strength is also my biggest weakness and that is my devout trust and faith in people. If you can't trust someone who you gave your vows to then who can you trust, eh ??? I believe I'm a better more stronger person because of this horror and to the ladies out there I'm not anti-women because not all of you are like my spouse !!!!
>"Way to sock it to them! Way to go! You are really showing them! "
Who am I showing?
When I buy a car made in the USA, by American workers, that is a good thing. When that car is quality built, that is even better. I got some amount of value for the money I spent. They did a good job for me and I helped to keep them working.
The guys and gals that put it together just might leave that plant in the afternoon with the feeling of "A JOB WELL DONE". They built a quality product that will do it's job for years to come. The person that had faith in them was not let down.
When that assembly line worker reads good things about the product they built, they can be proud AMERICANS. That is whom I am showing! I'm showing appreciation to the workers, to the management teams and the corporation for building a quality product.
Regrettably their parent company is not American. :sick:
Many of the parts in American built imports are actually built right here in the USA. Again by American workers. Those parts are delivered to the plants by American drivers. Entire industries, that are growing and employing many American workers, surround the import auto manufacturers. When the NET PROFITS go back to the corporation or the small manufactures of parts, I'm showing my support for a job well done.
>"If you woulda spent it on an american product that fat cat woulda spent it on a new house and probably bought a bunch of other stuff HERE." Fancy that, perhaps they would have helped our economy!
Sure, he buys a zillion dollar house, and leaves a large carbon print supporting it. Might even buy a couple in other parts of the world. Might buy a Lear Jet and a large boat to leave an even larger carbon print. He doesn't help the auto industry because his cars are most likely given to him. He supports some high priced tax attorneys and likely pays much less % of taxes than the average middle class wage earner. The kicker is that he is enabled to do this while making bad decisions and allowing the company, he is responsible for, to go down the toilet.
His company has interest or outright owns several "Import Brands", all over the world. He is not the slightest bit loyal to you or me. Only the $$$$ matters to him. He doesn't care if you buy an Opel, Land Rover, Jaguar, Saab and some others. His company owns them. They may have been built outside of America but the $$$ still go to him.
>"Just the logic used is a bit flawed in your case. "
I am a firm believer that when bad behavior is rewarded, it will continue.
I choose to no longer reward their bad behavior !
While it is true that the B3 are possibly beginning to see the light, IN AMERICA, it is because a lot of people have stopped rewarding their bad behavior of building bad products.
Every time I thought they were really trying to build a better product, I got burned again. So here they go again. Without me!
>"....In one year (actually less than the 13 months), GM lost over 20 BILLION dollars, its stock fell to a 50 year low, and it will now begin the process of closing FOUR factories. At the end of your day you may get a smile for your accomplisments. At the end of GMs CEO year, his success was rewarded with a 54 percent payraise (the equivelant of more than six of your months) for his accomplishments"....."GM used to own 52 percent of the auto market in the USA. I believe they are now at less than 20 percent"....."And the CEO will continue with his enormous salary while many "worker bees" will lose their jobs for the "success" of the CEO."
He is not the slightest bit loyal to you or me. Only the $$$$ matters to him
I can tell you this you are only stating your opinion. In fact he is very interested in you and me here in the US. If he was interested in only the money he would have left long ago.
Sorry, I don't share the same trust that you have. GM was making millions in the 90's and were developing the electric car (think Volt) and for some reason they stopped (hmmmmmm). They (leaders of GM) decided they were making too much money on SUVs and pickups and continuing this research and development was too much of an investment so they stopped.
Bottom line, the leadership of GM has the vision of Mr. Magoo. They only improved their cars when pressed by the competition or regulations and now, the survival of the company. GM has not been a leader in developing anything in decades.
If we are talking about Rick Wagoner, did he not take a dollar a year as salary for a while? I think he inherited a big mess. With 100,000s of retirees wanting their pensions and less and less money coming in. When faced with that situation drastic measures must be taken. You cut the fat both blue and white collar. I know people here seem to hate Jack Welch from GE. He took GE from a market value of $14 billion to $410 billion as CEO. When he retired his annual salary was $4 million. Did a lot of Union people lose their jobs. Yes they did. Did a lot of middle class Union people with a 401k make good gains if they had GE in their portfolio? Yes they did.
A CEO that goes with the times and keeps a company in good financial condition is much more valuable to the working man than one that lets a company fall into disarray and red ink. That ends up hurting the Union people and the stock holders.
Here is the big question? Is Rick Wagoner as dedicated to GM as the average UAW worker? Or should dedication should be based on earnings?
>"I can tell you this you are only stating your opinion."
Of course I'm stating my opinion. :shades: That is what forums are all about.
>"In fact he is very interested in you and me here in the US"
Lip service is one thing, actions are quite another. Why isn't he building you and me an equally reliable car to compete with the Imports at comparable prices. And no he doesn't really care about me. Only whether or not I buy his product. If I will buy junk, he will sell it to me. He did that for a long time. Still my opinion.
>"And yes I do know him."
Him who? I wasn't singling out an individual. I'm talking about the Big 3 in general. Is "HIM" the CEO of all three? How well do you know "him"? Do y'all play golf together, go out to dinner, have kids on the same soccer team?
Hey, I graduated in the same class as Ron Allen. Ron became the CEO of Delta Airlines. Mike Bowers graduated with us and became the Attorney General of Ga.. I knew them both in high school. They were both nice guys. Still see them at class reunions. Still nice guys to be around. Whoopdy Doo ! That doesn't mean they did their jobs properly or improperly. I don't really KNOW them.
The head of the UAW is probably a nice guy and wants the best for the UAW members. That doesn't mean he is doing a good job. Doors are closing, people are out of work. How effective is he any more? What was workable 15 years ago is no longer effective.
Things go on behind closed doors that we don't know about. "We don't know, what we don't know".
Mr. Wagner is an exception and should be a role model for aspiring CEOs. If Mr. Wagner does his job right, everyone in the organization should strive for the same. This leadership is a possitive. I agree that employees often come in to a corporation ready to set the world on fire and some where along the way the company does or doesn't do something which removes all this ambition. This needs to change. Both sides need to work on this. I see young engineers, very talented engineers, coming into our company and wonder what they will be like in say 10 or 20 years. Then our company has taken a pro active role in seeing to it that these young folks are set up for sucess. They have both a sponsor and mentor for their career paths. If they enjoy their work, they may never have to do a days work. The balancing of work and family is also important. If done right, a full life is possible.
The real issue is supply and demand. There are probably 10s of 1000s of people in the country that would take a $27 per hour UAW job right now. Within 6 months they could assemble cars with the best of them. How many people could take over GM or Ford or Microsoft and make money for the company? A very small handful. That is where the bidding war comes about. I would say Wagoner really would like to see GM successful. Why else hang around for even $7 million per year? The top CEO in the USA today is making $84,600,000. So that is over 10 times more than Wagoner.
Why isn't he building you and me an equally reliable car to compete with the Imports at comparable prices. If I will buy junk, he will sell it to me. He did that for a long time.
First of all we are talking about GM right now. Wagoner took over less than 10 years ago. The vehicles GM offers are as reliable and as good of a quality as the competition. If you do not think so we might as well stop talking now because nothing I say will change your mind. The data shows it. The media writes about it. Is the Malibu a winner in every respect to the Camry and Accord? No but overall it is right there with them.
The data shows that GM (along with Ford) has made strides in some areas but for every Malibu, they have the Uplander. For Ford, for every Fusion, you have the Freestyle and Freestar. Nissan falls into this category as well. The quality of their lineup is not equal to Toyota or Honda. It's going to take another decade of model improvements to get to that level.
"The data shows it. The media writes about it. Is the Malibu a winner in every respect to the Camry and Accord? No but overall it is right there with them."
I'll go the step further and say it IS a winner in every respect. I see ads for the Malibu locally selling for about $1500 more than the Camry, and $1000 more than Accord. Now some of this may be due to lack of availablility, but this car has definitely made an impact.
The Lucerne is selling better than the Avalon, and while Fuel economy may not be on par with it, Luxury is, and so is reliability.
The Lambda CUV's are every bit as good as their import counterparts, and bigger, I might add. All with comparable fuel economy.
Considering how long it's going to take to get new cars like the Cruize, Lacrosse, and Volt to market, it may take awhile to see the results. But they'll get there.
"I gagrice, did have lapse of disloyalty to GM. I as I explained before which I know you read GAGRICE, got burned by the largest dealer network in the U.S. named AUTONATION, and after spending several hours with this person and that person from GM"...
rocky, your credibility has been shot down to zero...your "lapse" is the exact same thing that has affected everyone else, but you easily excuse your "transgression" as one of anger, but yet everyone else who has purchased imports because of poor treatment by a dealer, lousy product is a bad person according to you, because they will not support the UAW...
You are, basically, the worst hypocrite ever to post here...you rah-rah the union, but desert them in a moment because a dealer treated you poorly, and bought a japanese vehicle...
Please explain why you are any different than millions of others who buy imports...because you went back???...hardly an excuse worth reading...you deserted them because you were mistreated, and whether it is a dealer, magmt, or poor union workmanship, what is the difference???...none...you made a big deal out of the TL's 65% domestic content...so what???...you rail against those who have bought imports as "supporting the enemy" and you go out and do the same thing but then try to excuse yourself on its domestic content...ain't gonna fly with me...
You have lost any semblance of credibility you may have had, as far as I am concerned...the only difference between you and the millions of import buyers is that you made poor hypocritical excuses for your purchase and everybody else just thought they were buying a good car...
All you had to do was walk down the street to another dealer, but a dealer's behavior caused you to desert the union product and buy foreign...and you have the gall to criticize others who have switched over to imports...
Sorry, you are off my list...but I do hope your divorce works out for you...
Yes, older models are hanging GM a bit but overall they are up there. Both Caddy and Buick stand with Toyota and Honda.
Anyway if you look at the data there is hardly any difference in problems anymore. It is like 1 problem per car at the top vs 3 at the bottom with most everyone packed around 2. Sorry but that is pretty darn equal. Yes it is twice as high as the best but twice almost nothing is still almost nothing.
>"First of all we are talking about GM right now."
No, first of all you got all irregular because you "assumed" I was attacking GM in particular.
I think if you will look back through my posts you will find that I have pretty much referred to the Big 3 in general. As I was when you replied to my post. GM came up after that.
>"The vehicles GM offers are as reliable and as good of a quality as the competition."
According to J.D. Powers several of the B3 cars have had excellent "Initial Quality" ratings over the last few years.
Problem is, that after a while they start giving trouble and don't hold up as well as the competition..
Hopefully, the latest and greatest offerings will indeed stand the test of time and the B3 will rebound.
No, first of all you got all irregular because you "assumed" I was attacking GM in particular.
Actually I did not assume you were discussing GM only. It is obvious you refer to all the Domestics. My discussion was pointed to GM because that is where I have actual experience.
According to J.D. Powers several of the B3 cars have had excellent "Initial Quality" ratings over the last few years.
Problem is, that after a while they start giving trouble and don't hold up as well as the competition..
Actually the data I posted from was Powers Long Term dependibility study. Yes it is only at 3 years of age but that is the best data out there. Of course there is Consumer Reports but there is a separate forum that discusses the merits of CR.
Again wrong forum but it would be easier to find vehicles which are not competitive. I know there can be all kinds of discussion and opinion but I tried to base on media reviews and sales.
Chevy:Uplander (dieing this year) Pontiac:G6 is getting long in the tooth but still selling well. Buick:LaCrosse is one of the tops in quality but styling has hurt its sales- replaced next year. GMC: the midsize truck (chevy also) not competitive but then again there is not much out there that is any good. Cadillac: STS is again on the old side Saturn: all competitive Saab: sorry cannot comment because I do not follow them Hummer: they are gone soon anyway but buyers love them (at least until gas hit $4)
Just out of curiosity which vehicles are built by the UAW? Out of the 5 new GM vehicles I bought only one was UAW built. Does that mean they only build 20% of GM vehicles? I had no idea when I bought my 1988 GMC 3/4 ton PU truck I would be getting a vehicle built in Canada. Personally I would rather help Mexico than Canada. When I go into the Chevy or GMC dealership I am looking for a specific vehicle. I would never buy something I did not want just because it was made in a UAW shop.
I would help anyone who makes a car that gives me satisfaction I want. I tend to stay at the top of the list, if you get my drift. I do make mistakes, for instance, with our 2003 GMC!
Hey you live and learn pal. I can say I've learned a lot from this horrible experience and I wouldn't have certain people in my life who are super important to me now with out going through all that I did.
I'm human and will make mistakes. I will make plenty more but I can admit to them. I purchased the Acura TL, because I was so damn angry at how I was treated by the dealership. If you look at the Amarillo, TX market you will find at all the Chevy dealerships are owned by Autonation. I did go down the street and got railed by them. This is before I knew all these Chevy dealers were owned by the same company. What I discovered was the sales manager ran my 754 beacon score credit through a lot of banks on purpose to lower my beacon score and lock me in to a higher interest rate. The dealer in return would get a kick-back on the interest for sending it to them vs. competition. I knew a couple of other people I worked with one of them being my best friend at work who's father or uncle (can't remember now) had this done to him a year earlier. GM, nor the dealerships upper management, didn't help me. To put it simple this is the same dealer network that got hit by the FBI, for charging customers for features that they didn't have on their cars !!! So call me a hypocrite, or whatever you want but at least I can own up to my skeleton and if you don't like me for being honest then that's fine. The veteran posters here on edmunds already knew about my Acura TL skeleton and the reason why I purchased it and I told General Motors, that I was going to buy a Acura TL, and it was like if they didn't care. They cared once I went through with it !!! :mad: Visit my Carspace page and I have pictures of TL, in my album. I Marsha7, as I said loved the car. I will always be a Acura TL, fan. General Motors, still has some customer service issues. I had problems with the rims on the 2004 Impala, I own or should I say my wife made me own by forgery. My aluminum alloy rims were leaking air and discovered this was a problem on these cars. I called GM, to complain last fall and while the customer service was better they didn't step-up to the plate and offer to replace or fix them and I let em' know. I went to 3 different tire shops before the problem was resolved. If the 65%+ domestic content, 2009' Acura TL, was UAW-MADE, and I obviously had the money like I once did it would be on my short-list. Maybe someday the UAW, will make a come back in this country and unionize the transplants. Yeah, you say it's impossible but I respectfully disagree with your accessment !!!
"The Rock"
P.S. I'm a yankee male, from Michigan. I'm going to get a trap door and a noose at the final court hearing in Texas. They like "frying" people in Texas. I being a yankee will make the event extra special as many are still fighting the civil war down there. :surprise: :sick:
Cadillac CTS w/ XWD and a 6-speed manual. The thing I dislike most about the current CTS, is the lack of a sophisticated AWD system that competes with SH-AWD and automatic only on the AWD option !!!! :sick: The XWD 2008' Saab 9-3 Turbo-X, would also be on my short-list. :shades:
This is before I knew all these Chevy dealers were owned by the same company
I got to ask this. Why would you buy a car in TX when you can go to Michigan and get the family discount from a dealer all your UAW family trusts. I got scammed once by GMAC also. They had those loans that take out all the interest first then you owe way more if you go to sell before the 5 years is up. You live and learn my friend. I have NEVER trusted anything about a dealer since. Though many have been very helpful. When they ask for a SS number I tell them see you. I only pay cash. I have never used a car dealers credit source since 1988. I should have used my Credit Union on that deal and got in a hurry.
I think you early on realized that some of the imports were better than anything GM had to offer in the class you wanted. So it did not take much to Jump out of the UAW ship.
PS Keep your own personal bank account. No matter how much you love a woman. More advice from someone with a LOT more experience.
Never heard of that one. Still trying to find out what it surveys. Anybody got a link? Got my masters from U of M yet cannot find any info! Would like to see why Chevy was below average while its stablemates were well above.
What is of note is how close the scores are. The top 7 are basically on top of each other (Buick, Cadillac and Saturn are there)
I see that the GM products are all above average except Chevy and Pontiac.
Hey pal what is going on with the rim department at GM ??? Mom, had problems with her 2006 G6 GTP where the rim bent and leaked air on her car. My rim wasn't bent however but leaked air. The tire shop guy said he has seen tons of Impala's with leaking rims. They are factory aluminum alloy rims. They still leak but it takes them a month or two to flip on the light to my TPMS which is a loss of 8 pounds of pressure. The tire guy said the aluminum easily corrodes on GM's aluminum wheels and the seal is broken. Said they were probably made in china. My step-dads rims on his 2001 GMC Sierra Z-71 only has 50K on it and he's had rim issues where the high-polished aluminum has changed colors because they broke the seal on the rims when changing his tires. That could be operator error inflicted ???
CR list is more than simply comfort features. Reliability seems to be high on their priorities. There may very well be wonderful new B3 models mfg in '06- '09. But we won't know that for a while. Notice there are B3 in the "Best List" and imports in the "Worst List".
"About these lists"
"The lists on these pages are compiled from overall reliability data covering 1998-2007 models with above-average or much-below-average reliability. CR Good Bets and Bad Bets include only the models for which we have sufficient data for at least three model years. Models that were brand-new in 2006 or 2007 do not appear. Problems with the engine major, engine cooling, transmission major, and drive system were weighted more heavily than other problems."
BEST OF THE BEST
These are models that have performed well in CR road tests over the years, and have proved to have several or more years of better-than-average reliability. Listed alphabetically.
Toyota 4Runner, Toyota Avalon, Toyota Camry (except '07 V6) Toyota Camry Solara, Toyota Celica, Toyota Corolla, Toyota Echo Toyota Highlander, Toyota Land Cruiser, Toyota Matrix, Toyota Prius Toyota RAV4, Toyota Sequoia, Toyota Sienna, Toyota Tundra (except '07 V8 4WD)
Volvo S60
WORST OF THE WORST
"These vehicles showed multiple Used Car Verdicts that were much worse than average, according to our survey respondents. They consistently had more problems than other models overall."
Buick Rendezvous (AWD), Buick Terraza
Chevrolet Astro, Chevrolet Blazer, Chevrolet Colorado (4WD), Chevrolet S-10 Pickup (4WD), Chevrolet Uplander, Chevrolet Venture,
Chrysler Town & Country (AWD), Dodge Grand Caravan (AWD)
I got to ask this. Why would you buy a car in TX when you can go to Michigan and get the family discount from a dealer all your UAW family trusts.
1300 miles reason might help explain to you ??? I could drive 22-24 hours depending on bathroom breaks or make it there on a airplane in 5 or 6 hours. I didn't have enough vacation time to drive gagrice. If I drove straight through I'd been dead tired when I got there and even more dead tired when I got back. See my POV ??? We only received 6 hours of vacation a month and you had to use it in 12 hour blocks thus it took you 2 months to get a day off for the first 5 years !!!!
As you know you can use your "GMS" anywhere but I had dealerships try to rip me off on it !!!!
I got scammed once by GMAC also. They had those loans that take out all the interest first then you owe way more if you go to sell before the 5 years is up. You live and learn my friend. I have NEVER trusted anything about a dealer since. Though many have been very helpful. When they ask for a SS number I tell them see you. I only pay cash. I have never used a car dealers credit source since 1988. I should have used my Credit Union on that deal and got in a hurry.
So you got raked through the coals also ??? :surprise: Holycow !!!! Some dealerships will ruin a persons image of a brand for a lifetime. That is why GM, needs to punish "shady" dealerships. If I was CEO of GM, that would be the #1 area I'd address.
I think you early on realized that some of the imports were better than anything GM had to offer in the class you wanted. So it did not take much to Jump out of the UAW ship.
Gagrice, I was actually going to purchase a Cadillac CTS-V.
Keep your own personal bank account. No matter how much you love a woman. More advice from someone with a LOT more experience.
Yeah, I learned my lesson pal. However my last 2 bank accounts were in my name and that didn't prevent her from gaining access to my account. :sick:
Find a good Credit Union. I have the same account since I moved to Alaska in 1970. Never have added or had to remove anyone. And they are a lot less open with giving out information than the banks.
I have my money protected under my mothers name at her credit union and only she and I have access to it !!! The people from the banks are going to testify against her in court !!! My father has his money in a UAW, affiliated credit union.
I had one of my rims leak when they put on the new Michelin Harmony tires last fall. The guy checked it, cleaned it, and sealed it with a tar-like material. There is a spot or two on the inside of the rim where the chome is puffed up away from the base material. These are chromed Celebration rims used on LeSabre starting 03.
The National Quality Research Center (NQRC) at the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan, is best known as research designer and source of the American Customer Satisfaction Index (ACSI) established in 1994. ACSI measures satisfaction with the goods and services of 200 companies, the U.S. Postal Service, local government police and waste disposal services, and the services of federal agencies. These private and public sector organizations produce approximately 43% of the nation’s GDP, and about $521 billion of its imported goods.
NQRC is a research and teaching center. Its work is premised on the need for individual companies and national economies to balance productivity with quality to be successful. It does so by providing an economic indicator that is a systematic tracking of the quality of goods and services, and their improvements and declines, from the perspective of the customer. It adds a measure of quality to supplement traditional economic indicators of quantity, price, and productivity. ACSI has proved to be predictive of growth in GDP and consumer spending. Companies with scores in the top half of ACSI consistently show far greater growth in market value added (MVA), than companies with satisfaction scores in the bottom half.
ACSI scores are produced at the levels of individual companies and agencies, industries, economic sectors, and the economies of the U.S. and an increasing number of other nations. NQRC faculty designed the econometric modeling of survey data for the Swedish Customer Satisfaction Barometer (Svenskt Kundindex), established in 1989, and the ACSI. There are now Customer Satisfaction Indices (CSIs) licensing the econometric model and software in Korea (1999), and more recently in Singapore, Mexico, Colombia, Turkey, and the United Kingdom. These nations receive training and consulting from NQRC staff.
As much as you think the South is backward (and you really should open your eyes...I did live in Detroit, so I KNOW it is a He**hole) you should have been divorced here in GA...
Our divorce laws include a concept called "equitable distribution", which means that assets must be divided relatively equally...obviously, your idea of equal may be different from my idea of equal, but this trash about the wife saying "I'll take him for everything he owns" does not often exist here...if he was a child molester, rapist, and drug addict, yes, that might occur and he could lose everything (assuming he had anything left to lose... ...), but, overall, assets are divided by the court if they cannot agree to anything reasonable...
About a year ago, we updated our child support laws, too...it used to be that child support was only taken from the paycheck of the noncustodial parent, usually the father, regardless of the income of the custodial mother...now, both incomes are considered, so if Mom makes $65K a year, and Dad makes $25K a year, Mom's greater income means that Dad's child support may be quite minimal compared to the old days...while not perfect, it is an attempt at fairness...something you do not seem to be experiencing...oddly enough, the attempt at fairness only came about once the Republicans took over for the first time since Reconstruction...Repubs do OK here at the state level, it is at the Fed level that they act like Democrats...plus the Repubs in GA finally passed the Castle Doctrine law, which allows a homeowner (or renter) to use deadly force to kill an intruder as soon as their body break the threshold line of a door or window, regardless of whether they are armed or not, i.e. you can kill anyone attempting to enter your home for any reason...now THAT is what I call a legislature that understands that citizens should have all the rights and crimionals should only have the right to burial......that make me proud to live in a state where the law is biased FOR the citizen and not the worthless crooks and criminals...civilized society has returned to GA...
Another modern quirk of GA...FEd law mandates you may get one free credit report per year...GA is the only state that mandates that you are entitled to TWO free credit reports yearly...so for those who may need them more often to monitor them, it is nice that we can get 2 yearly, we are the only state, to my knowledge, that mandates that...
While some parts of the South are backward, you would be amazed at how modern some of it is...and when you see the slums and worthlessness of Detroit and Flint, be careful what you criticize, especially when you really know nothing about it...
So for your next divorce (... :P ...) be sure you have lived in GA for 180 days so we can have jurisdiction and it will be fairer than what you have...
I still can't forgive you for buying an Acura while you rah-rah all this UAW stuff...
Actually the data I posted from was Powers Long Term dependibility study. Yes it is only at 3 years of age but that is the best data out there. Of course there is Consumer Reports but there is a separate forum that discusses the merits of CR.
Perhaps we're talking apples and oranges here. If (other than CR) the best data is JDPower at 3 years - that's around 45K miles at 15K/year. I know I, personally, am not too concerned about almost any vehicle at under 50K miles -- in fact I'd be downright offended to have any significant problems in under 3 years or 50K miles on any car or truck. I'm concerned at 100K and 150K. And it's the 75K, 100K and 150K reputations of Honda and Toyota that give them the really high resale values.
So you may be correct that the JD Power "long term" 3 year data shows Ford/GM/Chrysler quality equal to the imports, but I don't think that's a good measure for why the US nameplates have poor reputations (in general, not all models).
Perhaps JDP or somebody else (other than CR, we can argue their methods but this is the wrong forum) should do a 5 year or 7 year "really long term" study so that we can compare those time frames across all the makes in some objective way. Right now their seems to be a majority perception that the US nameplates are generally worse at mileage >75K miles.
I would consider transmission and engine problems the biggest issues as far as dependability goes. Thats not to say that some cars are more problematic than others. Unfortunately this data is not published and or provided by anyone. We have all heard about the Toyota sludge problem, which affected about five years of Toyota/Lexus autos, and the Honda transmission issues. First of all the Toyota case took about 5 years to get out of the courts, even then Toyota agreed to fix, but never admitted to any wrong doing. If one was to go and look at the 1992 to 1995 Camry reliability ratings done on MSN autos, you can see that these are worse than the average. Honda did step up and fix their issue and they do have models which are by far the cheapest to own. That is when one includes repairs, insurance, fuel and other owner costs. The new Malibu is an excellent auto, but prior models were poor. However, we have yet to see if these will go over a 100,000 miles with no transmission/engine replacement and or rebuilding. Lexus and Infinity have had engine and transmission problems at high mileage. The Northstar is but a 100,000 or so mile motor. Lease returns purchased by consumers have been the virtual nightmares. The extended warranty industry does have actuarial data on autos and charges accordingly. They tend to avoid the 100,000 plus car for good reason. In any case, certain models of certain brands, if maintained properly, will out last the average. My old college roommate does these tabulations in a company he founded, which he sells to warranty companies and others. They know the truth and the Powers initial owner stuff is just fluff.
As much as you think the South is backward (and you really should open your eyes...I did live in Detroit, so I KNOW it is a He**hole) you should have been divorced here in GA...
Well thankfully I don't or never have lived in Detriot. I've there quite a few times and like any large city it has its issues. The biggest problem I see with Detriot, is it has severe immigration issues. I won't touch on how I really feel about that subject to not offend anyone !!! I grew up in Western, Michigan (Grand Rapids) most of my life. I live in Grand Rapids, now and love our city. If you really studied me Marsha7, I have some very conservative view points. #1 pro-seond admendment #2 I have a very low tolerance for illegal aliens and think all of them should be deported including even if they are a UAW, member. !!! A unionized beef packing plant in Texas, was fighting ICE, over deportation. (Both the company and union)..... I just from a moral stand point can't support that even if they are union members.
Our divorce laws include a concept called "equitable distribution", which means that assets must be divided relatively equally...obviously, your idea of equal may be different from my idea of equal, but this trash about the wife saying "I'll take him for everything he owns" does not often exist here...if he was a child molester, rapist, and drug addict, yes, that might occur and he could lose everything (assuming he had anything left to lose... ...), but, overall, assets are divided by the court if they cannot agree to anything reasonable..
Well Texas, as you know is a huge republican state and is a "community property" (should be "community women") state and I'm happy that your state appears to be at least "fixing" some of its laws to make them fair even if ya'll still pee outside in wooden shacks !!!! :P :P :P :P You should be very happy with how things have turned out !!! I support the changes even if they were republicans that got em' done. Don't think for a minute Rocky, only has voted democrat his whole life. I voted in the republican primary in 2000 for McCain, and most recently voted for Ron Paul, here in Michigan because my candidate at the time Edwards, wasn't on the ballot but we witnessed him going down in flames and I lost a lot of respect for him. :sick: I at the local level supported liberatarians over republicans when democrats weren't a option. I'm not very happy with Obama's V.P. choice in Biden, tonight and thought he could of done a lot better and believe he just gave McCain, the election in November. :sick: I might be voting for a 3rd party candidate this election. I wished Ron Paul or Lou Dobbs would run !!!! Please, somebody but these two !!!!
About a year ago, we updated our child support laws, too...it used to be that child support was only taken from the paycheck of the noncustodial parent, usually the father, regardless of the income of the custodial mother...now, both incomes are considered, so if Mom makes $65K a year, and Dad makes $25K a year, Mom's greater income means that Dad's child support may be quite minimal compared to the old days...while not perfect, it is an attempt at fairness...something you do not seem to be experiencing...oddly enough, the attempt at fairness only came about once the Republicans took over for the first time since Reconstruction...Repubs do OK here at the state level, it is at the Fed level that they act like Democrats...plus the Repubs in GA finally passed the Castle Doctrine law, which allows a homeowner (or renter) to use deadly force to kill an intruder as soon as their body break the threshold line of a door or window, regardless of whether they are armed or not, i.e. you can kill anyone attempting to enter your home for any reason...now THAT is what I call a legislature that understands that citizens should have all the rights and crimionals should only have the right to burial......that make me proud to live in a state where the law is biased FOR the citizen and not the worthless crooks and criminals...civilized society has returned to GA...
I agree with everything you posted above !!!!
Another modern quirk of GA...FEd law mandates you may get one free credit report per year...GA is the only state that mandates that you are entitled to TWO free credit reports yearly...so for those who may need them more often to monitor them, it is nice that we can get 2 yearly, we are the only state, to my knowledge, that mandates that...
WOW !!! That's cool !!!!
While some parts of the South are backward, you would be amazed at how modern some of it is...and when you see the slums and worthlessness of Detroit and Flint, be careful what you criticize, especially when you really know nothing about it...
I've been to plenty of slums in the south, Marsha7 !!!
So for your next divorce (... ...) be sure you have lived in GA for 180 days so we can have jurisdiction and it will be fairer than what you have...
Thanks, for the vote of confidence that my next marriage will be a failure also !!! Jeeeepers !!! My best friend for the first time in my life currently is a women and I couldn't say that any of my ex's were my best friends thus that is a change for the good and a first for me !!! :surprise: :shades:
I still can't forgive you for buying an Acura while you rah-rah all this UAW stuff...
Oh well, I'm human and made that mistake if that qualifies for one. I will make plenty more "mistakes" I'm sure. I will always be a union supporter and while I may not of practiced what I preached once regarding the 2005 Acura, TL well I've done better than the majority of folks. If I were to buy a brand new car today it would probably be a CTS or MKS. I'd love to have a XWD Saab "Black Turbo" X. I as I said before admire what new advancements the 2009 Acura TL. I still love the "Acura" brand. I watched a 25 minute video from the Auto Channel, on the new TL and I was like OMG, how do they keep doing it ??? The TL, has weather Doppler Radar, for god sakes !!!! :surprise: :shades: A new advanced 440 Watt ELS/Panasonic 6-channel audio system. The center I beam is made of some advanced steel meeting future side impact standards well before it needs too just to name a couple of cool features. The car is just plain amazing and I can't help but to respect it !!! It is IMHO the best all-around car money can buy at this juncture, just like the last generation was IMHO. Just to bad they aren't UAW-MADE !!!!
>crimionals should only have the right to burial......
But Rocky, we shouldn't have to fulfill the criminal's ideal that we owe them a burial. We shouldn't be paying for their burial. A pet peeve of mine is as soon as a criminal in Dayton is dead, they start taking up collections for funeral costs as though it's the community responsibility to pay for that... drug dealers, people who fought with policemen, etc. The local TV stations love to perpetuate the idea; maybe it makes them feel philanthropic to advertise to send you contributions to a bank account to pay for the funeral.
Speaking of funerals-- back on the topic of UAW the local GM assembly plant has a group attemption to offer GM enough benefits (pay them to keep the plant here) to keep it operating in some way after the current truck product line is discontinued. It's be neat if the Volt were assembled here with the history of the Kettering and Patterson applications to the auto industry. IIRC electric ignitions, starters.
Another GM car is to be produced at Lordstown. Maybe there's some hope for the assembly facility. While I realize it's not in Georgia :P , it will be a great job loss after all of the GM supplier plants Delco/Delphi/Harrison which have closed through the last decade or so. I support giving them tax breaks and other benefits to woo them to keep something here. There are suppliers for just-in-time parts all around the area so I consider that a plus. Even more suppliers will be added as Honda turns the key on their plant near Columbus when it's finished. There was an article today about a bearing supplier --Timken in a local small town. I suspect there are many suppliers I wouldn't even realize we selling product to the auto industry; those are going to be hurt as the truck plant closes.
If the news article won't work without logging in, either log in with a dummy or tell me and I'll post it here.
Comments
Yes I will buy a diesel SUV, probably an X5d BMW or the ML320 CDI. If GM or Ford offered a diesel SUV built by a UAW plant It would be given an equal opportunity. Then I will sell this gas guzzling Sequoia and start taking trips around our beautiful country. Our only car is a 1990 LS400 that still runs fine. In a league with a Caddy I would say. Chances are that Ford or GM will wait 4-5 years after the market softens to add diesels. That is not the fault of the UAW. It is the fault of those over paid executives. If my health is good I may be still driving in 20 years. I expect a vehicle to last that long if cared for properly. Then again who knows. This is my 4th new vehicle in the last 3 years. I find things I don't like I sell em on Craigslist.
I gagrice, did have lapse of disloyalty to GM. I as I explained before which I know you read GAGRICE, got burned by the largest dealer network in the U.S. named AUTONATION, and after spending several hours with this person and that person from GM, and nothing accomplished I was so pissed off that I spent like $350 with Equifax, and had all illegal bank inquires removed from my credit. It took me 3 months and a lot of misery but I got em' removed. Now the difference between you and I gagrice, is Rocky has only purchased just one foreign automobile nameplate and every car I've owned was made in the U.S. of A. The Acura TL, you are attempting to dog me out over was made in Marysville, Ohio and had a domestic content of 65% . I was looking at the Lexus, IS 350 but the fact that it wasn't nearly as "American" as the Acura TL, and the fact that you couldn't get a 6-speed in the Lexus IS 350, and the IS didn't have the build quality, room, or fuel economy, handling that the TL posessed made my choice even easier. Yeah I could of purchased a Ford or Chrysler, right ??? They offered nothing in the ELLPS, segment I was shopping in. Dad, and I didn't speak for like 3 or 4 months because he was so angry at me but he eventually softened up and accepted what I did. I did like the Acura TL, and will always be a fan of this car because it's indeed a fine automobile and the 2009 has even more "Gadgetology" than the 2005, I owned. I guess I opened the door to that one, eh ??? You opened my closet door to my skeleton, and appluad you for that !!!!
I would think that the UAW member would rather have someone rag on how lazy and worthless they are and still buy what they build. If you buy a UAW built car you have the right to give em H--L. At least Bob and I are buying vehicles that put money in the pockets of Americans.
-See Above Post !!! I wouldn't doubt if I've owned more "American Made" automobiles in my lifetime than either you or Bob, so what do you have to say to that ??? I bet I come at least close !!!! :P You were buying Made in Japan, Landcruiser's at my age weren't you ???? :P
More than likely my next vehicle will be built by BMW in the USA.
Why would you waste money on a mediocre vehicle like the X5 ??? I have 2 friends that own them and for that kind of money just I expected well more !!!! Save some money and get a much better vehicle the next SRX, but I guess that wouldn't go with your California, celebrity !!!! :surprise:
It is impossible to buy any vehicle that is 100% made in the USA. The higher the US content the better.
True, but it sounds like you aren't practicing what you preach if you are going BMW. What's is the X5's domestic content ???? 5% ???
I don't think of Canadian or Mexican as Made in the USA. Though they are closer neighbors than Japan or Germany.
I'd rather buy a automobile from Canada, than Mexico. I'd rather buy a German or Japanese, made car than one made in Mexico, but again if the Mexican Made, vehicle had a much higher domestic content and supported more american jobs then the car coming from Canada or Mexico. I guess again that was part of my reasoning behind buying the Acura TL, at that juncture in time.
"The Rock"
Well the major reason is it will be available with a diesel in the next month or two. I did test drive the SRX and Escalade. I liked the 2006 and previous Escalade. The seats in the new ones feel like cardboard. And they have no immediate plans to build a diesel. I may as well keep the gas guzzler I have now. The X5 is built in the USA. Or should I say assembled from German parts, in the USA. You also forgot that I would have traded my 2005 GMC PU for a 2007 Denali if the dealer had not tried to hi-jack me. So the Big 3 have the UAW and some dealers that are not helping their cause. I know you for some reason think that Mexicans cannot build a car as well as a UAW or Canadian factory. My 98 Suburban was a great vehicle for the 7+ years I owned it. I should have not traded it for that GMC Hybrid PU. I would still have it. Much better put together than the 2005. Best thing about the GMC was the Bose sound with XM radio.
The SRX feels cheap... Not nearly as well built as the Sequoia. Not sure that was the UAW or who. The new Sequoia is not as nice as the last one either.
What did the UAW build in 1964 to compete with the Toyota Landcruiser? What did the UAW build in 1969 to compete with the VW Bug? You see the US automakers have not been able to offer what people want for a long time. I did own probably a dozen different pieces of Detroit Iron before I bought the new LC in 1964. I got most of them from the two salvage yards I worked at after school. I don't think I could name them all without really thinking back. I am sure they were all built by UAW workers.
I'd definetly would of purchased a 2008 CTS, pal but if you aren't aware buddy I've been going through a divorce for the last 16 months and my ex wife to be emptied out around $75,000 in liquid cash from my bank accounts. I was on strike for 2 months at Pantex, at the time of getting served papers and discovered my spouse forged my name to a lot of contracts, forged my name on a car, sold my paid-off pick-up, and drained all assets I worked for my whole life. To put it simple I ended up dead broke because I trusted my spouse who I thought loved me and thankfully she didn't get my 401K, and I had to resign from Pantex, a $60K+ position while on strike to acquire that money as I had a $1.00 to my name and owed many people money thanks to her. I wanted to be straight-up and honest with you to make you cognizant of my situation. So that is the main reason why Rocky, quit posting in the 2008 CTS forum as I no longer have the finances to acquire that car as much as I'd love to own one ! However I do think Acura, might of possibly raised the bar once again but I'd buy the CTS, because it's UAW-MADE and in some area's it's nicer than the TL, like the grill looks nicer on the CTS, than TL.
My moral to my story is my biggest strength is also my biggest weakness and that is my devout trust and faith in people. If you can't trust someone who you gave your vows to then who can you trust, eh ??? I believe I'm a better more stronger person because of this horror and to the ladies out there I'm not anti-women because not all of you are like my spouse !!!!
Now back to to the UAW topic !!!!
"The Rock"
Who am I showing?
When I buy a car made in the USA, by American workers, that is a good thing.
When that car is quality built, that is even better.
I got some amount of value for the money I spent.
They did a good job for me and I helped to keep them working.
The guys and gals that put it together just might leave that plant in the afternoon with the feeling of "A JOB WELL DONE". They built a quality product that will do it's job for years to come. The person that had faith in them was not let down.
When that assembly line worker reads good things about the product they built, they can be proud AMERICANS. That is whom I am showing!
I'm showing appreciation to the workers, to the management teams and the corporation for building a quality product.
Regrettably their parent company is not American. :sick:
Many of the parts in American built imports are actually built right here in the USA. Again by American workers. Those parts are delivered to the plants by American drivers. Entire industries, that are growing and employing many American workers, surround the import auto manufacturers. When the NET PROFITS go back to the corporation or the small manufactures of parts, I'm showing my support for a job well done.
>"If you woulda spent it on an american product that fat cat woulda spent it on a new house and probably bought a bunch of other stuff HERE." Fancy that, perhaps they would have helped our economy!
Sure, he buys a zillion dollar house, and leaves a large carbon print supporting it. Might even buy a couple in other parts of the world. Might buy a Lear Jet and a large boat to leave an even larger carbon print. He doesn't help the auto industry because his cars are most likely given to him. He supports some high priced tax attorneys and likely pays much less % of taxes than the average middle class wage earner. The kicker is that he is enabled to do this while making bad decisions and allowing the company, he is responsible for, to go down the toilet.
His company has interest or outright owns several "Import Brands", all over the world. He is not the slightest bit loyal to you or me. Only the $$$$ matters to him.
He doesn't care if you buy an Opel, Land Rover, Jaguar, Saab and some others. His company owns them. They may have been built outside of America but the $$$ still go to him.
>"Just the logic used is a bit flawed in your case. "
I am a firm believer that when bad behavior is rewarded, it will continue.
I choose to no longer reward their bad behavior !
While it is true that the B3 are possibly beginning to see the light, IN AMERICA, it is because a lot of people have stopped rewarding their bad behavior of building bad products.
Every time I thought they were really trying to build a better product, I got burned again. So here they go again. Without me!
Kip
Good post !
Kip
Your views and opinions are appreciated. Hope you return. Your last post was spot on from all I read.
I can tell you this you are only stating your opinion. In fact he is very interested in you and me here in the US. If he was interested in only the money he would have left long ago.
And yes I do know him.
Bottom line, the leadership of GM has the vision of Mr. Magoo. They only improved their cars when pressed by the competition or regulations and now, the survival of the company. GM has not been a leader in developing anything in decades.
A CEO that goes with the times and keeps a company in good financial condition is much more valuable to the working man than one that lets a company fall into disarray and red ink. That ends up hurting the Union people and the stock holders.
Here is the big question? Is Rick Wagoner as dedicated to GM as the average UAW worker? Or should dedication should be based on earnings?
It looks like his perks and stock options add up to about $7 million a year.
Info from Crain's Detroit Business
Of course I'm stating my opinion. :shades:
That is what forums are all about.
>"In fact he is very interested in you and me here in the US"
Lip service is one thing, actions are quite another. Why isn't he building you and me an equally reliable car to compete with the Imports at comparable prices. And no he doesn't really care about me. Only whether or not I buy his product. If I will buy junk, he will sell it to me. He did that for a long time. Still my opinion.
>"And yes I do know him."
Him who? I wasn't singling out an individual. I'm talking about the Big 3 in general.
Is "HIM" the CEO of all three? How well do you know "him"? Do y'all play golf together, go out to dinner, have kids on the same soccer team?
Hey, I graduated in the same class as Ron Allen. Ron became the CEO of Delta Airlines. Mike Bowers graduated with us and became the Attorney General of Ga.. I knew them both in high school. They were both nice guys. Still see them at class reunions. Still nice guys to be around. Whoopdy Doo ! That doesn't mean they did their jobs properly or improperly. I don't really KNOW them.
The head of the UAW is probably a nice guy and wants the best for the UAW members. That doesn't mean he is doing a good job. Doors are closing, people are out of work. How effective is he any more? What was workable 15 years ago is no longer effective.
Things go on behind closed doors that we don't know about. "We don't know, what we don't know".
Kip
The real issue is supply and demand. There are probably 10s of 1000s of people in the country that would take a $27 per hour UAW job right now. Within 6 months they could assemble cars with the best of them. How many people could take over GM or Ford or Microsoft and make money for the company? A very small handful. That is where the bidding war comes about. I would say Wagoner really would like to see GM successful. Why else hang around for even $7 million per year? The top CEO in the USA today is making $84,600,000. So that is over 10 times more than Wagoner.
First of all we are talking about GM right now. Wagoner took over less than 10 years ago. The vehicles GM offers are as reliable and as good of a quality as the competition. If you do not think so we might as well stop talking now because nothing I say will change your mind. The data shows it. The media writes about it. Is the Malibu a winner in every respect to the Camry and Accord? No but overall it is right there with them.
I'll go the step further and say it IS a winner in every respect. I see ads for the Malibu locally selling for about $1500 more than the Camry, and $1000 more than Accord. Now some of this may be due to lack of availablility, but this car has definitely made an impact.
The Lucerne is selling better than the Avalon, and while Fuel economy may not be on par with it, Luxury is, and so is reliability.
The Lambda CUV's are every bit as good as their import counterparts, and bigger, I might add. All with comparable fuel economy.
Considering how long it's going to take to get new cars like the Cruize, Lacrosse, and Volt to market, it may take awhile to see the results. But they'll get there.
rocky, your credibility has been shot down to zero...your "lapse" is the exact same thing that has affected everyone else, but you easily excuse your "transgression" as one of anger, but yet everyone else who has purchased imports because of poor treatment by a dealer, lousy product is a bad person according to you, because they will not support the UAW...
You are, basically, the worst hypocrite ever to post here...you rah-rah the union, but desert them in a moment because a dealer treated you poorly, and bought a japanese vehicle...
Please explain why you are any different than millions of others who buy imports...because you went back???...hardly an excuse worth reading...you deserted them because you were mistreated, and whether it is a dealer, magmt, or poor union workmanship, what is the difference???...none...you made a big deal out of the TL's 65% domestic content...so what???...you rail against those who have bought imports as "supporting the enemy" and you go out and do the same thing but then try to excuse yourself on its domestic content...ain't gonna fly with me...
You have lost any semblance of credibility you may have had, as far as I am concerned...the only difference between you and the millions of import buyers is that you made poor hypocritical excuses for your purchase and everybody else just thought they were buying a good car...
All you had to do was walk down the street to another dealer, but a dealer's behavior caused you to desert the union product and buy foreign...and you have the gall to criticize others who have switched over to imports...
Sorry, you are off my list...but I do hope your divorce works out for you...
Anyway if you look at the data there is hardly any difference in problems anymore. It is like 1 problem per car at the top vs 3 at the bottom with most everyone packed around 2. Sorry but that is pretty darn equal. Yes it is twice as high as the best but twice almost nothing is still almost nothing.
Do they still sell the Freestyle and Freestar?
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008115
.
For those still discussing CEO pay vs. UAW pay. Whoops none of the auto execs make the pay grade.
No, first of all you got all irregular because you "assumed" I was attacking GM in particular.
I think if you will look back through my posts you will find that I have pretty much referred to the Big 3 in general. As I was when you replied to my post. GM came up after that.
>"The vehicles GM offers are as reliable and as good of a quality as the competition."
According to J.D. Powers several of the B3 cars have had excellent "Initial Quality" ratings over the last few years.
Problem is, that after a while they start giving trouble and don't hold up as well as the competition..
Hopefully, the latest and greatest offerings will indeed stand the test of time and the B3 will rebound.
Kip
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If they are UAW built Automobiles, why not go for it?
It would be helpful if you kept them in similar type and price range.
Kip
Actually I did not assume you were discussing GM only. It is obvious you refer to all the Domestics. My discussion was pointed to GM because that is where I have actual experience.
According to J.D. Powers several of the B3 cars have had excellent "Initial Quality" ratings over the last few years.
Problem is, that after a while they start giving trouble and don't hold up as well as the competition..
Actually the data I posted from was Powers Long Term dependibility study. Yes it is only at 3 years of age but that is the best data out there. Of course there is Consumer Reports but there is a separate forum that discusses the merits of CR.
Chevy:Uplander (dieing this year)
Pontiac:G6 is getting long in the tooth but still selling well.
Buick:LaCrosse is one of the tops in quality but styling has hurt its sales- replaced next year.
GMC: the midsize truck (chevy also) not competitive but then again there is not much out there that is any good.
Cadillac: STS is again on the old side
Saturn: all competitive
Saab: sorry cannot comment because I do not follow them
Hummer: they are gone soon anyway but buyers love them (at least until gas hit $4)
2008 American Customer Satisfaction Index
Rank Make 2008 2007
1 Lexus 87 87
1 BMW 87 86
2 Toyota 86 84
2 Honda 86 84
3 Buick 85 86
3 Cadillac 85 86
3 Saturn 85 81
4 Lincoln-Mercury 83 86
4 Hyundai 83 83
4 GMC 83 82
5 Mercedes-Benz 82 83
5 Nissan 82 80
6 Volkswagen 81 80
7 Pontiac 80 80
7 Ford 80 80
7 Chrysler 80 79
7 Mazda 80 78
7 Kia 80 78
8 Chevrolet 79 82
9 Dodge 78 80
10 Jeep 76 75
Industry average 82 82
UoM NQRC Customer Satisfaction Survey
Regards,
OW
Hey you live and learn pal. I can say I've learned a lot from this horrible experience and I wouldn't have certain people in my life who are super important to me now with out going through all that I did.
-Rocky
I'm human and will make mistakes. I will make plenty more but I can admit to them. I purchased the Acura TL, because I was so damn angry at how I was treated by the dealership. If you look at the Amarillo, TX market you will find at all the Chevy dealerships are owned by Autonation. I did go down the street and got railed by them. This is before I knew all these Chevy dealers were owned by the same company. What I discovered was the sales manager ran my 754 beacon score credit through a lot of banks on purpose to lower my beacon score and lock me in to a higher interest rate. The dealer in return would get a kick-back on the interest for sending it to them vs. competition. I knew a couple of other people I worked with one of them being my best friend at work who's father or uncle (can't remember now) had this done to him a year earlier. GM, nor the dealerships upper management, didn't help me. To put it simple this is the same dealer network that got hit by the FBI, for charging customers for features that they didn't have on their cars !!! So call me a hypocrite, or whatever you want but at least I can own up to my skeleton and if you don't like me for being honest then that's fine. The veteran posters here on edmunds already knew about my Acura TL skeleton and the reason why I purchased it and I told General Motors, that I was going to buy a Acura TL, and it was like if they didn't care. They cared once I went through with it !!! :mad: Visit my Carspace page and I have pictures of TL, in my album. I Marsha7, as I said loved the car. I will always be a Acura TL, fan. General Motors, still has some customer service issues. I had problems with the rims on the 2004 Impala, I own or should I say my wife made me own by forgery. My aluminum alloy rims were leaking air and discovered this was a problem on these cars. I called GM, to complain last fall and while the customer service was better they didn't step-up to the plate and offer to replace or fix them and I let em' know. I went to 3 different tire shops before the problem was resolved. If the 65%+ domestic content, 2009' Acura TL, was UAW-MADE, and I obviously had the money like I once did it would be on my short-list. Maybe someday the UAW, will make a come back in this country and unionize the transplants. Yeah, you say it's impossible but I respectfully disagree with your accessment !!!
"The Rock"
P.S. I'm a yankee male, from Michigan. I'm going to get a trap door and a noose at the final court hearing in Texas. They like "frying" people in Texas. I being a yankee will make the event extra special as many are still fighting the civil war down there. :surprise: :sick:
SH-AWD and automatic only on the AWD option !!!! :sick: The XWD 2008' Saab 9-3 Turbo-X, would also be on my short-list. :shades:
"The Rock"
I got to ask this. Why would you buy a car in TX when you can go to Michigan and get the family discount from a dealer all your UAW family trusts. I got scammed once by GMAC also. They had those loans that take out all the interest first then you owe way more if you go to sell before the 5 years is up. You live and learn my friend. I have NEVER trusted anything about a dealer since. Though many have been very helpful. When they ask for a SS number I tell them see you. I only pay cash. I have never used a car dealers credit source since 1988. I should have used my Credit Union on that deal and got in a hurry.
I think you early on realized that some of the imports were better than anything GM had to offer in the class you wanted. So it did not take much to Jump out of the UAW ship.
PS
Keep your own personal bank account. No matter how much you love a woman. More advice from someone with a LOT more experience.
What is of note is how close the scores are. The top 7 are basically on top of each other (Buick, Cadillac and Saturn are there)
I see that the GM products are all above average except Chevy and Pontiac.
Hey pal what is going on with the rim department at GM ??? Mom, had problems with her 2006 G6 GTP where the rim bent and leaked air on her car. My rim wasn't bent however but leaked air. The tire shop guy said he has seen tons of Impala's with leaking rims. They are factory aluminum alloy rims. They still leak but it takes them a month or two to flip on the light to my TPMS which is a loss of 8 pounds of pressure. The tire guy said the aluminum easily corrodes on GM's aluminum wheels and the seal is broken. Said they were probably made in china. My step-dads rims on his 2001 GMC Sierra Z-71 only has 50K on it and he's had rim issues where the high-polished aluminum has changed colors because they broke the seal on the rims when changing his tires. That could be operator error inflicted ???
Thanks,
Rocky
"About these lists"
"The lists on these pages are compiled from overall reliability data covering 1998-2007 models with above-average or much-below-average reliability. CR Good Bets and Bad Bets include only the models for which we have sufficient data for at least three model years. Models that were brand-new in 2006 or 2007 do not appear. Problems with the engine major, engine cooling, transmission major, and drive system were weighted more heavily than other problems."
BEST OF THE BEST
These are models that have performed well in CR road tests over the years, and have proved to have several or more years of better-than-average reliability. Listed alphabetically.
Acura Integra, Acura MDX, Acura RL, Acura RSX, Acura TL, Acura TSX
BMW M3
Buick LaCrosse
Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Honda Civic Hybrid, Honda CR-V, Honda Element
Honda Odyssey, Honda Pilot, Honda S2000
Infiniti FX, Infiniti G20, Infiniti G35, Infiniti I30, I35, Infiniti QX4
Lexus ES, Lexus ES, Lexus GS (RWD), Lexus GX, Lexus IS, Lexus LS
Lexus RX, Lexus SC
Lincoln Continental, Lincoln Town Car
Mazda Millenia, Mazda MX-5 Miata, Mazda Protegé, Mazda3
Mitsubishi Endeavor, Mitsubishi Outlander
Nissan Altima, Nissan Maxima, Nissan Murano
Pontiac Vibe,
Porsche 911 (except '03)
Scion tC, Scion xB
Subaru Baja, Subaru Forester, Subaru Impreza, Subaru Legacy,
Subaru Outback
Toyota 4Runner, Toyota Avalon, Toyota Camry (except '07 V6)
Toyota Camry Solara, Toyota Celica, Toyota Corolla, Toyota Echo
Toyota Highlander, Toyota Land Cruiser, Toyota Matrix, Toyota Prius
Toyota RAV4, Toyota Sequoia, Toyota Sienna, Toyota Tundra (except '07 V8 4WD)
Volvo S60
WORST OF THE WORST
"These vehicles showed multiple Used Car Verdicts that were much worse than average, according to our survey respondents. They consistently had more problems than other models overall."
Buick Rendezvous (AWD), Buick Terraza
Chevrolet Astro, Chevrolet Blazer, Chevrolet Colorado (4WD), Chevrolet S-10 Pickup (4WD), Chevrolet Uplander, Chevrolet Venture,
Chrysler Town & Country (AWD), Dodge Grand Caravan (AWD)
GMC Canyon (4WD), GMC Jimmy, GMC S-15 Sonoma (4WD), GMC Safari
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Kia Sedona
Land Rover Discovery, LR3
Lincoln Aviator
Mercedes-Benz SL
Nissan Armada (4WD), Nissan Titan (4WD)
Oldsmobile Bravada, Oldsmobile Silhouette
Pontiac Aztek
Pontiac G6
Pontiac Montana, Trans Sport, Montana SV6
Saturn Relay
Volkswagen Cabriolet
Volkswagen Jetta Sedan (turbo)
Volkswagen Jetta Sedan (V6)
Volkswagen Touareg
1300 miles reason might help explain to you ??? I could drive 22-24 hours depending on bathroom breaks or make it there on a airplane in 5 or 6 hours. I didn't have enough vacation time to drive gagrice. If I drove straight through I'd been dead tired when I got there and even more dead tired when I got back. See my POV ??? We only received 6 hours of vacation a month and you had to use it in 12 hour blocks thus it took you 2 months to get a day off for the first 5 years !!!!
As you know you can use your "GMS" anywhere but I had dealerships try to rip me off on it !!!!
I got scammed once by GMAC also. They had those loans that take out all the interest first then you owe way more if you go to sell before the 5 years is up. You live and learn my friend. I have NEVER trusted anything about a dealer since. Though many have been very helpful. When they ask for a SS number I tell them see you. I only pay cash. I have never used a car dealers credit source since 1988. I should have used my Credit Union on that deal and got in a hurry.
So you got raked through the coals also ??? :surprise: Holycow !!!! Some dealerships will ruin a persons image of a brand for a lifetime. That is why GM, needs to punish "shady" dealerships. If I was CEO of GM, that would be the #1 area I'd address.
I think you early on realized that some of the imports were better than anything GM had to offer in the class you wanted. So it did not take much to Jump out of the UAW ship.
Gagrice, I was actually going to purchase a Cadillac CTS-V.
Keep your own personal bank account. No matter how much you love a woman. More advice from someone with a LOT more experience.
Yeah, I learned my lesson pal. However my last 2 bank accounts were in my name and that didn't prevent her from gaining access to my account. :sick:
-Rocky
Find a good Credit Union. I have the same account since I moved to Alaska in 1970. Never have added or had to remove anyone. And they are a lot less open with giving out information than the banks.
I am sure the UAW is affiliated with a good CU.
-Rocky
2008 VEHICLES BUILT BY UNION MEMBERS IN THE UNITED STATES & CANADA
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The National Quality Research Center (NQRC) at the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan, is best known as research designer and source of the American Customer Satisfaction Index (ACSI) established in 1994. ACSI measures satisfaction with the goods and services of 200 companies, the U.S. Postal Service, local government police and waste disposal services, and the services of federal agencies. These private and public sector organizations produce approximately 43% of the nation’s GDP, and about $521 billion of its imported goods.
NQRC is a research and teaching center. Its work is premised on the need for individual companies and national economies to balance productivity with quality to be successful. It does so by providing an economic indicator that is a systematic tracking of the quality of goods and services, and their improvements and declines, from the perspective of the customer. It adds a measure of quality to supplement traditional economic indicators of quantity, price, and productivity. ACSI has proved to be predictive of growth in GDP and consumer spending. Companies with scores in the top half of ACSI consistently show far greater growth in market value added (MVA), than companies with satisfaction scores in the bottom half.
ACSI scores are produced at the levels of individual companies and agencies, industries, economic sectors, and the economies of the U.S. and an increasing number of other nations. NQRC faculty designed the econometric modeling of survey data for the Swedish Customer Satisfaction Barometer (Svenskt Kundindex), established in 1989, and the ACSI. There are now Customer Satisfaction Indices (CSIs) licensing the econometric model and software in Korea (1999), and more recently in Singapore, Mexico, Colombia, Turkey, and the United Kingdom. These nations receive training and consulting from NQRC staff.
Regards,
OW
Our divorce laws include a concept called "equitable distribution", which means that assets must be divided relatively equally...obviously, your idea of equal may be different from my idea of equal, but this trash about the wife saying "I'll take him for everything he owns" does not often exist here...if he was a child molester, rapist, and drug addict, yes, that might occur and he could lose everything (assuming he had anything left to lose...
About a year ago, we updated our child support laws, too...it used to be that child support was only taken from the paycheck of the noncustodial parent, usually the father, regardless of the income of the custodial mother...now, both incomes are considered, so if Mom makes $65K a year, and Dad makes $25K a year, Mom's greater income means that Dad's child support may be quite minimal compared to the old days...while not perfect, it is an attempt at fairness...something you do not seem to be experiencing...oddly enough, the attempt at fairness only came about once the Republicans took over for the first time since Reconstruction...Repubs do OK here at the state level, it is at the Fed level that they act like Democrats...plus the Repubs in GA finally passed the Castle Doctrine law, which allows a homeowner (or renter) to use deadly force to kill an intruder as soon as their body break the threshold line of a door or window, regardless of whether they are armed or not, i.e. you can kill anyone attempting to enter your home for any reason...now THAT is what I call a legislature that understands that citizens should have all the rights and crimionals should only have the right to burial......that make me proud to live in a state where the law is biased FOR the citizen and not the worthless crooks and criminals...civilized society has returned to GA...
Another modern quirk of GA...FEd law mandates you may get one free credit report per year...GA is the only state that mandates that you are entitled to TWO free credit reports yearly...so for those who may need them more often to monitor them, it is nice that we can get 2 yearly, we are the only state, to my knowledge, that mandates that...
While some parts of the South are backward, you would be amazed at how modern some of it is...and when you see the slums and worthlessness of Detroit and Flint, be careful what you criticize, especially when you really know nothing about it...
So for your next divorce (... :P
I still can't forgive you for buying an Acura while you rah-rah all this UAW stuff...
Perhaps we're talking apples and oranges here. If (other than CR) the best data is JDPower at 3 years - that's around 45K miles at 15K/year. I know I, personally, am not too concerned about almost any vehicle at under 50K miles -- in fact I'd be downright offended to have any significant problems in under 3 years or 50K miles on any car or truck. I'm concerned at 100K and 150K. And it's the 75K, 100K and 150K reputations of Honda and Toyota that give them the really high resale values.
So you may be correct that the JD Power "long term" 3 year data shows Ford/GM/Chrysler quality equal to the imports, but I don't think that's a good measure for why the US nameplates have poor reputations (in general, not all models).
Perhaps JDP or somebody else (other than CR, we can argue their methods but this is the wrong forum) should do a 5 year or 7 year "really long term" study so that we can compare those time frames across all the makes in some objective way. Right now their seems to be a majority perception that the US nameplates are generally worse at mileage >75K miles.
Well thankfully I don't or never have lived in Detriot. I've there quite a few times and like any large city it has its issues. The biggest problem I see with Detriot, is it has severe immigration issues. I won't touch on how I really feel about that subject to not offend anyone !!!
Our divorce laws include a concept called "equitable distribution", which means that assets must be divided relatively equally...obviously, your idea of equal may be different from my idea of equal, but this trash about the wife saying "I'll take him for everything he owns" does not often exist here...if he was a child molester, rapist, and drug addict, yes, that might occur and he could lose everything (assuming he had anything left to lose... ...), but, overall, assets are divided by the court if they cannot agree to anything reasonable..
Well Texas, as you know is a huge republican state and is a "community property" (should be "community women") state and I'm happy that your state appears to be at least "fixing" some of its laws to make them fair even if ya'll still pee outside in wooden shacks !!!! :P :P :P :P You should be very happy with how things have turned out !!! I support the changes even if they were republicans that got em' done. Don't think for a minute Rocky, only has voted democrat his whole life. I voted in the republican primary in 2000 for McCain, and most recently voted for Ron Paul, here in Michigan because my candidate at the time Edwards, wasn't on the ballot but we witnessed him going down in flames and I lost a lot of respect for him. :sick: I at the local level supported liberatarians over republicans when democrats weren't a option. I'm not very happy with Obama's V.P. choice in Biden, tonight and thought he could of done a lot better and believe he just gave McCain, the election in November. :sick: I might be voting for a 3rd party candidate this election. I wished Ron Paul or Lou Dobbs would run !!!! Please, somebody but these two !!!!
About a year ago, we updated our child support laws, too...it used to be that child support was only taken from the paycheck of the noncustodial parent, usually the father, regardless of the income of the custodial mother...now, both incomes are considered, so if Mom makes $65K a year, and Dad makes $25K a year, Mom's greater income means that Dad's child support may be quite minimal compared to the old days...while not perfect, it is an attempt at fairness...something you do not seem to be experiencing...oddly enough, the attempt at fairness only came about once the Republicans took over for the first time since Reconstruction...Repubs do OK here at the state level, it is at the Fed level that they act like Democrats...plus the Repubs in GA finally passed the Castle Doctrine law, which allows a homeowner (or renter) to use deadly force to kill an intruder as soon as their body break the threshold line of a door or window, regardless of whether they are armed or not, i.e. you can kill anyone attempting to enter your home for any reason...now THAT is what I call a legislature that understands that citizens should have all the rights and crimionals should only have the right to burial......that make me proud to live in a state where the law is biased FOR the citizen and not the worthless crooks and criminals...civilized society has returned to GA...
I agree with everything you posted above !!!!
Another modern quirk of GA...FEd law mandates you may get one free credit report per year...GA is the only state that mandates that you are entitled to TWO free credit reports yearly...so for those who may need them more often to monitor them, it is nice that we can get 2 yearly, we are the only state, to my knowledge, that mandates that...
WOW !!! That's cool !!!!
While some parts of the South are backward, you would be amazed at how modern some of it is...and when you see the slums and worthlessness of Detroit and Flint, be careful what you criticize, especially when you really know nothing about it...
I've been to plenty of slums in the south, Marsha7 !!!
So for your next divorce (... ...) be sure you have lived in GA for 180 days so we can have jurisdiction and it will be fairer than what you have...
Thanks, for the vote of confidence that my next marriage will be a failure also !!! Jeeeepers !!! My best friend for the first time in my life currently is a women and I couldn't say that any of my ex's were my best friends thus that is a change for the good and a first for me !!! :surprise: :shades:
I still can't forgive you for buying an Acura while you rah-rah all this UAW stuff...
Oh well, I'm human and made that mistake if that qualifies for one. I will make plenty more "mistakes" I'm sure. I will always be a union supporter and while I may not of practiced what I preached once regarding the 2005 Acura, TL well I've done better than the majority of folks. If I were to buy a brand new car today it would probably be a CTS or MKS. I'd love to have a XWD Saab "Black Turbo" X. I as I said before admire what new advancements the 2009 Acura TL. I still love the "Acura" brand. I watched a 25 minute video from the Auto Channel, on the new TL and I was like OMG, how do they keep doing it ??? The TL, has weather Doppler Radar, for god sakes !!!! :surprise: :shades: A new advanced 440 Watt ELS/Panasonic 6-channel audio system. The center I beam is made of some advanced steel meeting future side impact standards well before it needs too just to name a couple of cool features. The car is just plain amazing and I can't help but to respect it !!! It is IMHO the best all-around car money can buy at this juncture, just like the last generation was IMHO. Just to bad they aren't UAW-MADE !!!!
"The Rock"
But Rocky, we shouldn't have to fulfill the criminal's ideal that we owe them a burial. We shouldn't be paying for their burial. A pet peeve of mine is as soon as a criminal in Dayton is dead, they start taking up collections for funeral costs as though it's the community responsibility to pay for that... drug dealers, people who fought with policemen, etc. The local TV stations love to perpetuate the idea; maybe it makes them feel philanthropic to advertise to send you contributions to a bank account to pay for the funeral.
Speaking of funerals-- back on the topic of UAW
the local GM assembly plant has a group attemption to offer GM enough benefits (pay them to keep the plant here) to keep it operating in some way after the current truck product line is discontinued. It's be neat if the Volt were assembled here with the history of the Kettering and Patterson applications to the auto industry. IIRC electric ignitions, starters.
Another GM car is to be produced at Lordstown. Maybe there's some hope for the assembly facility. While I realize it's not in Georgia :P
If the news article won't work without logging in, either log in with a dummy or tell me and I'll post it here.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
At 75 -100K the domestic products are terrible.
Live with it! I am.
Regards,
OW