I can't speak for Backy, but I think you have brand loyalty confused with meeting customer requirements. They are way different.
Every year there are more & more vehicles that are "meeting customer requirements." This year it's the Genesis. In years past it was the Chrysler 300 C and the Cadillac CTS. What will it be next year? Hyundai better find a way to get some brand loyalty and quick or they run the risk of getting lost in the shuffle of all the other nice cars out there.
People that are brand loyal tend to stick with a brand regardless of whether quality or usability have slipped.
Cadillac had loyal customers for decades. But lost them all in the 80's and 90's because they put out terrible products inside & out. Mercedes & BMW ran into quality issues in the 90's but they're still going strong. Wy did 1 company almost go bankrupt while the other 2 are still going strong?
Quality & usability are very important, but there's more to it to keeping a customer brand loyal: driving experience,prestige, and styling are a several other factors that some deem important and will keep thm coming back for more.
People that are not brand loyal will constantly evaluate cars, and choose the best car for himself regardless of brand.
Hyundai better remember that, because as soon as the next hot car comes along that's "better" (and cheaper) than the Genesis this thread will be a ghost town. No brand loyalty for here...
I'm no psychologist, but I think brand loyal people tend to think of automobiles in human terms. They may name their car, or call it "she" for example. They may say they "love" their car, and feel they are cheating on it if they consider buying another brand. Believe me, a machine or manufacturer will never return those tender sentiments!
I don't see anything wrong with that, and quite a few people name their vehicles. Everybody gets what they want: The car owner is happy with the product and the manufacturer makes money and the shareholder is happy. But brand loyal people can fall out of love just like every1 else if the car doesn't meet expectations. Again, look at Cadillac.
Manufacturers are well aware of brand loyalty, and take advantage of it. For example, a 740 costs twice as much as a Genesis. I will guarantee you that a 740 doesn't cost twice as much to manufacture as a Genesis! Toyota Camry costs ~6K more than a comparable Sonata, and I would bet you their manufacturing costs are nearly identical. Why the $6K premium?
Because the public is willing to pay that premium. Can't fault the companies for pricing their items at a price the public's willing to pay. No 1 is making people pay $70k- $100k for a car.
Payless Shoes can't sell their athletic footwear for the same price as Nike, even though they are both made in China and the workers are paid pennies on the dollar...
Timex couldn't sell their watches for the same price as Rolex or Movado. If they tried to raise their prices they'd be out of business in a week...
It comes down to what price the public is willing to pay for the product. If the public doesn't want it, the company either lowers the prices or goes out of business. The Phanteon is a good example. It was a nice car, but not at that price. The public wasn't having it and as a result the car is a distant memory. If the car was 20k less it might still be here.
I think the Genesis is priced perfectly. It's a GREAT car and Hyundai hit a home run with it. Personally, I see nothing wrong with it. If they tried to price it higher they would've been criticized (IMO) and it wouldn't do as well.
Why the $6K premium? I attribute most of it to brand loyalty..
I don't think so. There are many 1st time buyers of the 740, S Class, and the LS who are willing to pay that premium. How can a person have brand loyalty to a product they never owned before?
And someday, if some car maker comes out with a car that is more luxurious, better looking, has more features, drives better, and costs thousands less than the Genesis, it is certainly a car I'd have to take a close look at when I'm in the market for such a car.
There's nothing wrong with that. But if people choose to stay with the Genesis because they are happy with it, would you think they were crazy for staying loyal to the brand, even though it costs more than this new vehicle?
Although I quit posting several months ago I have periodically read this forum. In researching automotive history publications, I have learned that Chevrolet Caprice, AMC Diplomat, Chrysler New Yorker, Ford LTD and other models were classified as “Luxury” cars in their day. So the Genesis and maybe even the Vera Cruz and Azera would qualify. However, the Genesis does not qualify as a “Prestige” car such as BMW, Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, MB, etc. Prestige cars earn the title due to high cost, luxury amenities, somewhat limited ownership and the general public’s perception of them as prestigious cars. So, Genesis is luxury, but will never be a prestige make even if sold separately. Therefore, this topic can be put to rest. Interestingly there are even more NEW people complaining about the suspensions/ride on the Genesis and the Azera. In looking back, there are far more complaining than those saying they have no problem. Complaints are even showing up on Hyundai Think Tank and Edmunds consumer reviews. Regardless, Consumer Reports, Automobile Magazine, Car and Driver and Consumers Guide all had unfavorable comments re: the ride/suspension. Even Hyundai officials have stated they are tuning the Genesis suspension for 2010 and may make major changes in the second generation. Hyundai also replaced shocks as many as two times with newer shock models for many Azera owners. Didn't do it for no reason. Furthermore, despite the statement in the brochure, professionals and even Hyundai officials have stated that the Genesis sedan is NOT a performance sedan and is not meant to be one. It is a luxury sedan to compete with Lexus and similar cars. Therefore, the ride should be extremely comfortable. It does NOT have a performance suspension and was not meant to have one. It also appears that the “Gang of Five (or so)” here is still heaping abuse on anyone who comments negatively on Hyundai products. The most vocal and frequent one is spending $2,000 to “improve” his "perfect" Genesis suspension per his posts on another site. DUH? Genesis is an excellent car, but does have some faults, which hopefully will be worked out. But, they have not been on the Azera, so who knows. Someone posted a long list of cars traded in on Genesis.’ Most interesting was the very low number of Hyundai’s traded in. With the economy, I imagine a lot of people leasing or buying are looking for cheaper. That might explain all the expensive models being traded in. BTW, a local dealer is advertising Genesis’ for 3,000 off MSRP. OK, Gang of Five - hit me!
Hyundai's sales were way up in January, and not because of the offer to buy your car back if you lose your job, but rather because bob was absent from this thread.
Unfortunately my personality does not allow me to let others spread disinformation without responding eventually. Absolutely a man of my word, but things changed. I had hoped that the abusiveness would have gone away. BTW, I made a typo - meant to say person spending $2,000 on improving his suspension was on an Azera.
Before you had decided to leave for good the last time, everyone tried to reason with you but you didn't want to listen.
If I recall correctly, your beef was Hyundai's response to your letter regarding the changes you would like to see on future models, in part I'd assume stemmed from the suspension issue, which you also posted here in almost every one of your posts.
Anyway, you were mistaken to think Hyundai had somehow insulted you - this was/is a corporate policy, and something fairly consistent across the industry. Automakers reserve every right not to share any information regarding future products and modifications.
Unfortunately my personality does not allow me to let others spread disinformation without responding eventually.
Then I know you would want everyone to know that Consumer Reports disliked the suspension on the Genesis so much that they rated it the top car in its class, that Automobile Magazine said the Genesis 4.6's ride is "supple" and "creamy smooth", and that Car & Driver said the Genesis 3.8 has a "great ride".
How can there be a place in the 'luxury' market for Hyundai (or anybody else) if they are going to insist on pricing the new 'Coupe' at $20k for the 4 banger and maybe $30 for the V6. A 'luxury' brand does need to have 'luxury' prices even if it is a Korean car. The Genesis coupe may be a perfectly fine little buzz bomb and be worth every penny that Hyundai is asking for it, but at those prices it will do nothing but hurt Hyundai (and Genesis) image as a 'luxury' marque.
Staying away from a $20k Genesis coupe because it isn't expensive enough may be a problem for you, but I don't think it will be a problem for most people looking for a car like that.
Captain - try and look at this in a different way. I had posted this a little while back:
"This thread has assumed, wrongly I believe, that Hyundai's goal for the Genesis was to compete with Lexus, MB, etc. That misses the big picture. The Genesis is a tool to build the HYUNDAI brand. If they wanted to build a Genesis brand I think they would have followed the obvious path of separate dealerships, etc, Nissan, Honda and Toyota have demonstrated this is the way to go. But that route would have not provided the halo effect and so was ruled out."
I think there is room for Hyundai as a luxury brand, BUT they will eventually need to either move the entire Hyundai line to be upscale or split Genesis and others off. I can see them taking the Azera, moving it up a little and then have 2 sedas and a copue, but the problem witht he coupe is a $22K starting price. I know Infiniti had the G20, but it fell off quick. A 4 cyl $22K car does not belong in a luxury lineup. What they may be up to is starting a brand called Genesis and then you have the Genesis Coupe and the Genisis Sedan that will get unique names as they spin them off. It is rather odd to have the coupe and sedan namded the same right now when one is clearly luxury the other sports. I think it may confuse people. And yes I know Infiniti has G37 sedan and coupe, but Infiniti's entire lineup is gears toward sporty.
"It's the undeniable value equation that tips this test in the favor of the 2010 Hyundai Genesis 3.8. You simply get more car for your dollar with the Genesis coupe. Sure, it's not as much car as the 2009 Infiniti G37, but at two-thirds the cost, it doesn't have to be."
if the plan is to 'spin off' the genesis 'brand' then they are doing what they should have done all along - and what the J3 also did successfully. You bring up a good point, the G20 held back the Infiniti brand for many years from being a true luxury brand IMO, as should the 4 banger Genesis coupe. Acura has the TSX- nothing more than a European Accord -that effectively does the same thing. Lexus has, of course the ES350, a luxoed Camry, but at least it does get into the $40s and remains unarguably 'entry level'.. BMW takes a risk of sorts (tarnishing that luxury image) with their 'entry' 1 series, MB with their Cs etc. Price of admission does have something to do with whether something is 'luxury' or whether an entire brand is luxury. Having 'cheap' cars to sell is not the ticket into luxo land. The Genesis 'brand' may indeed get folks to understand that Hyundai is capable of making some relatively good automobiles, but what we are talking about here is whether the Hyundai brand can be luxury, not whether the 'Genesis 'brand can be or even is. It is no different than Chevrolet producing some sort of ultra luxo G8 variant - the car could easily have every bit of bling and even dynamic capabilities of some of those German and high line Japanese cars BUT could it ever be a luxury car? Not with that brand name
The given is that the Z will shave a little less than a second off of Gen Coupe's 0-60 sprint time, attributed by the lesser weight, two less seats, among other advantages.
That said, I still contend the G Coupe is the Genesis Coupe's closest competitor, depsite the large price difference - by the way, there is also a good price contrast between the Z and the Genesis coupe when spec'd comparably.
""It is no different than Chevrolet producing some sort of ultra luxo G8 variant - the car could easily have every bit of bling and even dynamic capabilities of some of those German and high line Japanese cars BUT could it ever be a luxury car? Not with that brand name ""
Soo, I guess that after 55 years Chevrolet should dump the Corvette because a Chevrolet Corvette just can't be a successful luxury car with a first name like that!??! Who would spent $106,520 for a Chevy (ZR1)!??!
the Corvette a bad example - it is NOT (and nor do I think many people perceive it as) a luxury car. It is a performance/sports car - and a darn good one. Further, I would also contend to you that the Corvette is not really thought of as a Chevrolet at all, it is a 'brand' of its own. The fact that it can cost $100k is of no import, the buyer is not buying a Chevy he is buying a Corvette.
When someone goes down that road, the discussion always stumbles into many double standards. That can only mean 1 thing. The entire premise of certain cars being luxury cars is flawed. Luxury cars are like Bigfoot. There are true believers, but when proof is asked for, they can't produce. :P
The 2nd photo was better, but it still doesn't do it justice. They are luminescent and you should see them in person to judge them.
I was shopping minivans and the Entourage Limited has luminescent gauges that are nicer than anything in the Sienna or Ody. Base models get generic looking gauges that aren't nearly as nice, so you had to step up to a Limited.
Same way you can't show off a high-def TV with photos - you just gotta see it in the flesh.
Watched a video review of the Genesis on Speed, and they took it out on a race track. They were mostly positive, particularly about the engine and the value pricing.
Complaints included a slighty soft suspension and seats that were too flat for track duty (not exactly Hyundai's target).
So a Genesis buyer is not buying a Hyundai (even though it has that swoopy H on the back), but a Genesis. Problem solved! no actually problem unsolved - as it relates to the topic of this particular forum. If it weren't for that 'swoopy H' the Genesis sedan buyer might actually be buying a 'luxury car'. The Genesis coupe buyer, of course, could never be buying that 'luxury' car for a number of reasons two of which are : the swoopy 'H' and the other being that it is far too cheap. All of this has nothing to do with the bling quotient or relative quality of either car. Even had Hyundai gone the conventional (and proven) route of trying to establish a new luxury brand , it would likely still be too early to tell whether it would have been accepted into the ranks of those 'luxury' marques. That unfortunately is a result of all the baggage that comes with the name 'Hyundai' - whether it's fair or not is not the point. to answer the question ' 'is there room in the luxury market for Hyundai', I believe the answer to be plainly no. However, change the queston to read 'is there room in the luxury market for Genesis' then I believe the answer to be plainly yes, under the condition that the car is sold somewhat differently than it is now.
to answer the question ' 'is there room in the luxury market for Hyundai', I believe the answer to be plainly no. However, change the queston to read 'is there room in the luxury market for Genesis' then I believe the answer to be plainly yes, under the condition that the car is sold somewhat differently than it is now.
Wow, now I am REALLY confused. First, you say there is room in the luxury market for Genesis. And there is, as we can all see the sales to date, which are quite good compared to its main competition in these times. But there isn't room in the luxury market for Hyundai?? Excuse me, but what badge is on the back of those Genesis sedans that have been sold in NA to date, and from which dealers were they sold?
Your viewpoint was understandable about 6 months ago, before we had any idea how the market would receive the Genesis, both in terms of sales volume and in terms of critical acclaim. But now that we have seen how the market has responded to the Genesis sedan, conclusions that "there is no room in the luxury market for Hyundai" don't hold much water, IMO.
But now that we have seen how the market has responded to the Genesis sedan, conclusions that "there is no room in the luxury market for Hyundai" don't hold much water, IMO. and what indicates to you that Hyundai has been accepted as a 'lux' mfgr.? Just because they are selling a mediocre 1000 cars or so a month? Heck when my 05 Avalon first came they were selling 10000/mo. I know, I know, bad economy - but also with no help from advertising campaigns. Or because you want to believe Hyundai's ad campaigns? The Genesis is selling, I contend, because it is a screaming value for what the price tag says - as most Korean products do - not because it necessarily has been accepted by the 'luxury' car buyer. You're starting by looking at a car that has enough bling that would logically qualify it as luxury (to you) and then jumping from there to an assumption that the car is being accepted as one simply because they sell a few and I guess advertise it such. Quite a leap. I start by looking at the manufacturer, everything they sell and who they generally sell it to, and also what legacy that manufacturer has in the car business and tell you that in this case a Hyundai labelled product can not be a 'luxury' car. If the car were simply a Genesis, and sold somewhere other than in the land of $10k Accents then the situation is conceivably much different - the fact that Hyundai makes it means less, and then maybe some acceptance. Remember that when the LS came out, the fact that it was made by Toyota was perceived to be a good thing. Furthermore, the Lexus dealer was never a place to go to buy a cheap car. All something I contend is not the case with the Genesis and Hyundai right now The Genesis itself and what it actually is (or is not) , makes little difference. And yes, what a luxury car is and who really makes them is all about perceptions.
Do you remember the list that was published recently regarding what people are trading for the Genesis sedan? Do you remember all the luxury cars on that list? No, not all were luxury cars, but people do tend to trade up from a lesser car to a luxury car.
The facts are that Hyundai is selling about 1000 Genesis sedans a month. That is in the same ballpark at competitors such as the GS and M. The fact that the Genesis is a screaming value is a big selling point, no doubt. That doesn't take away from the fact that the Genesis has, according to professional opinion, the quality, performance, and features of luxury cars that cost much more. The fact that the Genesis sells for so little dough seems to be a big issue with you. Try to get over it. This is a Hyundai we're talking about, not a Mercedes or Lexus. Hyundais cost less. That's the way it is. That's what sets the Genesis apart. When the LS came out, it too was a "screaming value". Didn't seem to hurt the LS any. And the LS has upped its price quite a bit since it debuted. Maybe that will happen in time to the Genesis, and then you'll be happy as a clam.
Why do I get a feeling that some folks here work for Toyota or Lexus?
I would not have considered purchasing Hyundai car even 10 years ago, but now with Genesis, I'd definitely consider it. Also, if Hyundai started a separate division like Infiniti or Lexus, I don't think they can offer Genesis at such a low price due to extra costs involved.
I think Genesis is at least a near luxury car without the Luxury price tag. It looks fine next to BMW,MB or Lexus. I am looking forward to more great Hyundai products in the future.
The Genesis is selling, I contend, because it is a screaming value for what the price tag says
What if Mercedes suddenly became a screaming value? What if Mercedes dropped their prices by 30% without changing anything physically on the cars. Would they no longer be a luxury brand? Would that be a turnoff to buyers, or would there be a huge stampede to buy them?
This is a good sign, not just for the Genesis sedan but for Hyundai. This is the first sedan they've sold in the US that "aced" both the NHTSA and IIHS crash tests. The Sonata (and Optima) came very close (Acceptable in IIHS side impact)--but no cigar. Maybe Hyundai will push down what they've learned on the Genesis sedan to their other sedans, especially their smaller ones (Accent and Elantra) which are sub-par in crash safety compared to their competition.
Do you remember the list that was published recently regarding what people are trading for the Genesis sedan? Do you remember all the luxury cars on that list? No, not all were luxury cars, but people do tend to trade up from a lesser car to a luxury car. published no - a nebulous statement by some Hyundai executive yes - siomething along the lines of 40% of Genesis buyers are coming from former owners of cars LIKE Lexus, BMW, MB etc . That statement could really mean anything and is a 'red flag' as one other poster noted. I mean what car is 'like' a BMW, Lexus etc. but not one ? The 40% is a number that would strike me a really LOW anyway if you were to compare it to the same sort of numbers relative to true luxo buyers. Do you really think, for example, that if you surveyed those folks that just bought a BMW this week-, that ONLY 40% of them haven't owned something quite similar before, or that 60% of them are first time BMW owners. Think not. BMW would have no reason to make nonsensical statements like this but I am guessing that far more than your lousy 40% are former BMW owners, or really do come from the ranks of those other true luxo brands - no reason to use the word 'LIKE' . The reason is quite simple, once somebody has the money that they can afford (and appreciate) the finer things in life such as in those BMWs/MBs/Lexii (or whatever) they will do it again and again. Kind of like folks that buy expensiive homes, once they do it, they tend to do it again. And yes these folks tend to be label/status conscious as well - and as ridiculous as that may be - all the more reason to stay away from that Hyundai dealer.
What if Mercedes suddenly became a screaming value? What if Mercedes dropped their prices by 30% without changing anything physically on the cars. Would they no longer be a luxury brand? think it would take a bit more than 30%, but as soon as MB, in your example, makes their cars so financially accessible that their products start to lose some of that exclusivity that comes with the high prices - then, yes, MBs start to lose that 'luxo' tag. A good example of this right now might just be the MK Lincolns - rebadged Fusions and Tauruses under $30 and $40k respectively, and a brand that is losing (has lost?) its 'luxury' luster.
...but as soon as MB, in your example, makes their cars so financially accessible that their products start to lose some of that exclusivity that comes with the high prices - then, yes, MBs start to lose that 'luxo' tag.
Then MB has already started to lose its "luxo" tag. MB MSRP prices in the US start at just under $33k--right where the Genesis starts, btw. If it's not a high enough price for the Genesis to be "luxo", it's not high enough for MB to be "luxo" either. $33k is not far over the average transaction price for a new car these days. Imagine.. MBs selling for about the same price as a loaded Accord. How "ordinary".
Then MB has already started to lose its "luxo" tag. MB MSRP prices in the US start at just under $33k-- yep, as I said in an earlier post the MB Cs, the BMW 1s, the A3s etc. all 'risk' that 'luxo' tag normally associated with many of those German sedans. They are entry level at best and also not all that 'luxurious' in any traditional sense.
Of course for that 32K MB you get base trim level, fake leather, no cool gadgets, no bling. But you get a badge the world still embraces in almost every vehicle category. Is a base C really a luxury car, or just an ordinary car from a badge seen as luxury in this market?
To show how competitive the market has become, 20 years ago the average 190E cost around 30K. No inflation. The segment has remained very constant.
When the LS came out, it too was a "screaming value". not nearly what the Genesis is perhaps - the LS sold in the very high 30s and early 40s - this was back in 1990, and those German competitors were only $10-15k more expensive, and boy where you went to buy one was a palace compared to even where those German cars were sold. Besides being a very very good car, it was those dedicated dealers and how they treated their clientel that spelled success. Lexus redfined many things in the 'luxo' business. If you look at the V8 Genesis a case could be made for it being comparable (size, wght, power) to things that cost nearly double what the Genesis does. There is more to it than that, of course. Understand that this (the low price) is great thing for that guy that can look past the label and actually buys a Genesis, but it is also not an especially good thing when you are trying to classify the car as a 'luxury' anything.
Comments
Every year there are more & more vehicles that are "meeting customer requirements." This year it's the Genesis. In years past it was the Chrysler 300 C and the Cadillac CTS. What will it be next year? Hyundai better find a way to get some brand loyalty and quick or they run the risk of getting lost in the shuffle of all the other nice cars out there.
People that are brand loyal tend to stick with a brand regardless of whether quality or usability have slipped.
Cadillac had loyal customers for decades. But lost them all in the 80's and 90's because they put out terrible products inside & out. Mercedes & BMW ran into quality issues in the 90's but they're still going strong. Wy did 1 company almost go bankrupt while the other 2 are still going strong?
Quality & usability are very important, but there's more to it to keeping a customer brand loyal: driving experience,prestige, and styling are a several other factors that some deem important and will keep thm coming back for more.
People that are not brand loyal will constantly evaluate cars, and choose the best car for himself regardless of brand.
Hyundai better remember that, because as soon as the next hot car comes along that's "better" (and cheaper) than the Genesis this thread will be a ghost town. No brand loyalty for here...
I'm no psychologist, but I think brand loyal people tend to think of automobiles in human terms. They may name their car, or call it "she" for example. They may say they "love" their car, and feel they are cheating on it if they consider buying another brand. Believe me, a machine or manufacturer will never return those tender sentiments!
I don't see anything wrong with that, and quite a few people name their vehicles. Everybody gets what they want: The car owner is happy with the product and the manufacturer makes money and the shareholder is happy. But brand loyal people can fall out of love just like every1 else if the car doesn't meet expectations. Again, look at Cadillac.
Manufacturers are well aware of brand loyalty, and take advantage of it. For example, a 740 costs twice as much as a Genesis. I will guarantee you that a 740 doesn't cost twice as much to manufacture as a Genesis! Toyota Camry costs ~6K more than a comparable Sonata, and I would bet you their manufacturing costs are nearly identical. Why the $6K premium?
Because the public is willing to pay that premium. Can't fault the companies for pricing their items at a price the public's willing to pay. No 1 is making people pay $70k- $100k for a car.
Payless Shoes can't sell their athletic footwear for the same price as Nike, even though they are both made in China and the workers are paid pennies on the dollar...
Timex couldn't sell their watches for the same price as Rolex or Movado. If they tried to raise their prices they'd be out of business in a week...
It comes down to what price the public is willing to pay for the product. If the public doesn't want it, the company either lowers the prices or goes out of business. The Phanteon is a good example. It was a nice car, but not at that price. The public wasn't having it and as a result the car is a distant memory. If the car was 20k less it might still be here.
I think the Genesis is priced perfectly. It's a GREAT car and Hyundai hit a home run with it. Personally, I see nothing wrong with it. If they tried to price it higher they would've been criticized (IMO) and it wouldn't do as well.
Why the $6K premium? I attribute most of it to brand loyalty..
I don't think so. There are many 1st time buyers of the 740, S Class, and the LS who are willing to pay that premium. How can a person have brand loyalty to a product they never owned before?
There's nothing wrong with that. But if people choose to stay with the Genesis because they are happy with it, would you think they were crazy for staying loyal to the brand, even though it costs more than this new vehicle?
However, the Genesis does not qualify as a “Prestige” car such as BMW, Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, MB, etc. Prestige cars earn the title due to high cost, luxury amenities, somewhat limited ownership and the general public’s perception of them as prestigious cars.
So, Genesis is luxury, but will never be a prestige make even if sold separately. Therefore, this topic can be put to rest.
Interestingly there are even more NEW people complaining about the suspensions/ride on the Genesis and the Azera. In looking back, there are far more complaining than those saying they have no problem. Complaints are even showing up on Hyundai Think Tank and Edmunds consumer reviews. Regardless, Consumer Reports, Automobile Magazine, Car and Driver and Consumers Guide all had unfavorable comments re: the ride/suspension. Even Hyundai officials have stated they are tuning the Genesis suspension for 2010 and may make major changes in the second generation. Hyundai also replaced shocks as many as two times with newer shock models for many Azera owners. Didn't do it for no reason.
Furthermore, despite the statement in the brochure, professionals and even Hyundai officials have stated that the Genesis sedan is NOT a performance sedan and is not meant to be one. It is a luxury sedan to compete with Lexus and similar cars. Therefore, the ride should be extremely comfortable. It does NOT have a performance suspension and was not meant to have one.
It also appears that the “Gang of Five (or so)” here is still heaping abuse on anyone who comments negatively on Hyundai products. The most vocal and frequent one is spending $2,000 to “improve” his "perfect" Genesis suspension per his posts on another site. DUH?
Genesis is an excellent car, but does have some faults, which hopefully will be worked out. But, they have not been on the Azera, so who knows.
Someone posted a long list of cars traded in on Genesis.’ Most interesting was the very low number of Hyundai’s traded in. With the economy, I imagine a lot of people leasing or buying are looking for cheaper. That might explain all the expensive models being traded in.
BTW, a local dealer is advertising Genesis’ for 3,000 off MSRP.
OK, Gang of Five - hit me!
I do see that more than a few happy Azera owners upgraded.
Likely not bob, though. :P
BTW, I made a typo - meant to say person spending $2,000 on improving his suspension was on an Azera.
If I recall correctly, your beef was Hyundai's response to your letter regarding the changes you would like to see on future models, in part I'd assume stemmed from the suspension issue, which you also posted here in almost every one of your posts.
Anyway, you were mistaken to think Hyundai had somehow insulted you - this was/is a corporate policy, and something fairly consistent across the industry. Automakers reserve every right not to share any information regarding future products and modifications.
Really? Love to know your documentation on this one.
Then I know you would want everyone to know that Consumer Reports disliked the suspension on the Genesis so much that they rated it the top car in its class, that Automobile Magazine said the Genesis 4.6's ride is "supple" and "creamy smooth", and that Car & Driver said the Genesis 3.8 has a "great ride".
Smells fishy to me - simply because I doubt there are aftermarket companies making $2000 suspension packages for the Azera.
It doesn't do enough volume nor is it targeted at the type of people that would drop in a custom suspension.
It's a big, cozy sedan, not a Miata.
And here's the top ten with their score:
Lexus LS 460L 99
Infiniti M35 X (AWD) 97
BMW 135i (manual) 97
Porsche 911 Carrera S (manual) 96
Infiniti M35 (RWD) 95
Infiniti G37 95
Toyota Sienna XLE (FWD) 93
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (manual) 92
Hyundai Genesis 3.8 92
Lexus ES 350 91
Their reliability data is more significant, though, IMHO.
The Genesis coupe may be a perfectly fine little buzz bomb and be worth every penny that Hyundai is asking for it, but at those prices it will do nothing but hurt Hyundai (and Genesis) image as a 'luxury' marque.
Staying away from a $20k Genesis coupe because it isn't expensive enough may be a problem for you, but I don't think it will be a problem for most people looking for a car like that.
2009 Hyundai Genesis: Gauges Don't Look Very Luxurious
That pic isn't very high quality. A little out of focus and glare. Here's a pic with a little bit higher resolution.
http://www.hyundainews.com/assets/Media_Kits/2009_Models/Genesis/asset_upload_fi- le967_2832.jpg
"This thread has assumed, wrongly I believe, that Hyundai's goal for the Genesis was to compete with Lexus, MB, etc. That misses the big picture. The Genesis is a tool to build the HYUNDAI brand. If they wanted to build a Genesis brand I think they would have followed the obvious path of separate dealerships, etc, Nissan, Honda and Toyota have demonstrated this is the way to go. But that route would have not provided the halo effect and so was ruled out."
But yeah, they look fine to me too. Nice and simple. The blue odo gauge is the least attractive part from the photos.
I really like the LS gage cluster, though I shouldn't. (I'm a purist about gages).
Comparison Test: 2010 Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 vs. 2009 Infiniti G37 Coupe
The Genesis 'brand' may indeed get folks to understand that Hyundai is capable of making some relatively good automobiles, but what we are talking about here is whether the Hyundai brand can be luxury, not whether the 'Genesis 'brand can be or even is. It is no different than Chevrolet producing some sort of ultra luxo G8 variant - the car could easily have every bit of bling and even dynamic capabilities of some of those German and high line Japanese cars BUT could it ever be a luxury car? Not with that brand name
I wonder if a more interesting comparison would be the V6 Genesis coupe vs. the new Z. Both come in around $30k.
That said, I still contend the G Coupe is the Genesis Coupe's closest competitor, depsite the large price difference - by the way, there is also a good price contrast between the Z and the Genesis coupe when spec'd comparably.
Soo, I guess that after 55 years Chevrolet should dump the Corvette because a Chevrolet Corvette just can't be a successful luxury car with a first name like that!??! Who would spent $106,520 for a Chevy (ZR1)!??!
So a Genesis buyer is not buying a Hyundai (even though it has that swoopy H on the back), but a Genesis. Problem solved!
When someone goes down that road, the discussion always stumbles into many double standards. That can only mean 1 thing. The entire premise of certain cars being luxury cars is flawed. Luxury cars are like Bigfoot. There are true believers, but when proof is asked for, they can't produce. :P
I was shopping minivans and the Entourage Limited has luminescent gauges that are nicer than anything in the Sienna or Ody. Base models get generic looking gauges that aren't nearly as nice, so you had to step up to a Limited.
Same way you can't show off a high-def TV with photos - you just gotta see it in the flesh.
Complaints included a slighty soft suspension and seats that were too flat for track duty (not exactly Hyundai's target).
no actually problem unsolved - as it relates to the topic of this particular forum. If it weren't for that 'swoopy H' the Genesis sedan buyer might actually be buying a 'luxury car'. The Genesis coupe buyer, of course, could never be buying that 'luxury' car for a number of reasons two of which are : the swoopy 'H' and the other being that it is far too cheap. All of this has nothing to do with the bling quotient or relative quality of either car. Even had Hyundai gone the conventional (and proven) route of trying to establish a new luxury brand , it would likely still be too early to tell whether it would have been accepted into the ranks of those 'luxury' marques. That unfortunately is a result of all the baggage that comes with the name 'Hyundai' - whether it's fair or not is not the point.
to answer the question ' 'is there room in the luxury market for Hyundai', I believe the answer to be plainly no. However, change the queston to read 'is there room in the luxury market for Genesis' then I believe the answer to be plainly yes, under the condition that the car is sold somewhat differently than it is now.
Wow, now I am REALLY confused. First, you say there is room in the luxury market for Genesis. And there is, as we can all see the sales to date, which are quite good compared to its main competition in these times. But there isn't room in the luxury market for Hyundai?? Excuse me, but what badge is on the back of those Genesis sedans that have been sold in NA to date, and from which dealers were they sold?
Your viewpoint was understandable about 6 months ago, before we had any idea how the market would receive the Genesis, both in terms of sales volume and in terms of critical acclaim. But now that we have seen how the market has responded to the Genesis sedan, conclusions that "there is no room in the luxury market for Hyundai" don't hold much water, IMO.
Statements like that prove that luxury is all in the mind of some car owners. Others believe that luxury can be measured, and I agree.
and what indicates to you that Hyundai has been accepted as a 'lux' mfgr.? Just because they are selling a mediocre 1000 cars or so a month? Heck when my 05 Avalon first came they were selling 10000/mo. I know, I know, bad economy - but also with no help from advertising campaigns. Or because you want to believe Hyundai's ad campaigns? The Genesis is selling, I contend, because it is a screaming value for what the price tag says - as most Korean products do - not because it necessarily has been accepted by the 'luxury' car buyer. You're starting by looking at a car that has enough bling that would logically qualify it as luxury (to you) and then jumping from there to an assumption that the car is being accepted as one simply because they sell a few and I guess advertise it such. Quite a leap. I start by looking at the manufacturer, everything they sell and who they generally sell it to, and also what legacy that manufacturer has in the car business and tell you that in this case a Hyundai labelled product can not be a 'luxury' car. If the car were simply a Genesis, and sold somewhere other than in the land of $10k Accents then the situation is conceivably much different - the fact that Hyundai makes it means less, and then maybe some acceptance. Remember that when the LS came out, the fact that it was made by Toyota was perceived to be a good thing. Furthermore, the Lexus dealer was never a place to go to buy a cheap car. All something I contend is not the case with the Genesis and Hyundai right now The Genesis itself and what it actually is (or is not) , makes little difference.
And yes, what a luxury car is and who really makes them is all about perceptions.
The facts are that Hyundai is selling about 1000 Genesis sedans a month. That is in the same ballpark at competitors such as the GS and M. The fact that the Genesis is a screaming value is a big selling point, no doubt. That doesn't take away from the fact that the Genesis has, according to professional opinion, the quality, performance, and features of luxury cars that cost much more. The fact that the Genesis sells for so little dough seems to be a big issue with you. Try to get over it. This is a Hyundai we're talking about, not a Mercedes or Lexus. Hyundais cost less. That's the way it is. That's what sets the Genesis apart. When the LS came out, it too was a "screaming value". Didn't seem to hurt the LS any. And the LS has upped its price quite a bit since it debuted. Maybe that will happen in time to the Genesis, and then you'll be happy as a clam.
I would not have considered purchasing Hyundai car even 10 years ago, but
now with Genesis, I'd definitely consider it. Also, if Hyundai started a separate
division like Infiniti or Lexus, I don't think they can offer Genesis at such a low
price due to extra costs involved.
I think Genesis is at least a near luxury car without the Luxury price tag. It looks
fine next to BMW,MB or Lexus. I am looking forward to more great Hyundai
products in the future.
Hyundai Genesis Aces Crash Tests
What if Mercedes suddenly became a screaming value? What if Mercedes dropped their prices by 30% without changing anything physically on the cars. Would they no longer be a luxury brand? Would that be a turnoff to buyers, or would there be a huge stampede to buy them?
published no - a nebulous statement by some Hyundai executive yes - siomething along the lines of 40% of Genesis buyers are coming from former owners of cars LIKE Lexus, BMW, MB etc . That statement could really mean anything and is a 'red flag' as one other poster noted. I mean what car is 'like' a BMW, Lexus etc. but not one ?
The 40% is a number that would strike me a really LOW anyway if you were to compare it to the same sort of numbers relative to true luxo buyers. Do you really think, for example, that if you surveyed those folks that just bought a BMW this week-, that ONLY 40% of them haven't owned something quite similar before, or that 60% of them are first time BMW owners. Think not. BMW would have no reason to make nonsensical statements like this but I am guessing that far more than your lousy 40% are former BMW owners, or really do come from the ranks of those other true luxo brands - no reason to use the word 'LIKE' .
The reason is quite simple, once somebody has the money that they can afford (and appreciate) the finer things in life such as in those BMWs/MBs/Lexii (or whatever) they will do it again and again. Kind of like folks that buy expensiive homes, once they do it, they tend to do it again. And yes these folks tend to be label/status conscious as well - and as ridiculous as that may be - all the more reason to stay away from that Hyundai dealer.
think it would take a bit more than 30%, but as soon as MB, in your example, makes their cars so financially accessible that their products start to lose some of that exclusivity that comes with the high prices - then, yes, MBs start to lose that 'luxo' tag. A good example of this right now might just be the MK Lincolns - rebadged Fusions and Tauruses under $30 and $40k respectively, and a brand that is losing (has lost?) its 'luxury' luster.
Then MB has already started to lose its "luxo" tag. MB MSRP prices in the US start at just under $33k--right where the Genesis starts, btw. If it's not a high enough price for the Genesis to be "luxo", it's not high enough for MB to be "luxo" either. $33k is not far over the average transaction price for a new car these days. Imagine.. MBs selling for about the same price as a loaded Accord. How "ordinary".
yep, as I said in an earlier post the MB Cs, the BMW 1s, the A3s etc. all 'risk' that 'luxo' tag normally associated with many of those German sedans. They are entry level at best and also not all that 'luxurious' in any traditional sense.
To show how competitive the market has become, 20 years ago the average 190E cost around 30K. No inflation. The segment has remained very constant.
not nearly what the Genesis is perhaps - the LS sold in the very high 30s and early 40s - this was back in 1990, and those German competitors were only $10-15k more expensive, and boy where you went to buy one was a palace compared to even where those German cars were sold. Besides being a very very good car, it was those dedicated dealers and how they treated their clientel that spelled success. Lexus redfined many things in the 'luxo' business. If you look at the V8 Genesis a case could be made for it being comparable (size, wght, power) to things that cost nearly double what the Genesis does. There is more to it than that, of course.
Understand that this (the low price) is great thing for that guy that can look past the label and actually buys a Genesis, but it is also not an especially good thing when you are trying to classify the car as a 'luxury' anything.
The E and S class are true luxury cars.