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Comments
You can ignore the facts, but it doesn't make them go away.
I'm not the one ignoring the facts about the Genesis design and who it wants to be.
Seriously, BMW has a major problem if their marketing efforts are being ignored by all but the BMW fanboys.
BMW has no marketing issues at all, judging by their sales on a national and global level.
Although the dopes in the parking lot test drive spots seem a little misleading sometimes. You aint gonna get what they are driving for $199/month.
Equus is coming in late September and they are only allotted 2-3 for the year. According to the guy they already have a waiting list.
I still think the Hyundai (a 2010, by the way) has a bit of a nervous ride, but I am used to it, now, and really appreciate the fun that ride translates into. Acceleration of my V6 matches that of the Phaeton, even surpasses it in town.
Listen, if the Phaeton didn't break every 15 minutes (usually nuisance stuff....never left me stranded) I would have kept it. But I had to drive 70 miles for service, and the car was there every two weeks, and there was no end in site for the repairs.
Yeah, the Hyundai is as quiet, more fun to drive. I call it a luxury car, and it were badged German it would be selling twice as much.
Right now I have NO BUYER'S REMORSE. Always felt the backseat in the 5 series BMW was so tight that there was no reason not to buy a 3 series, or move to the 7. My Genesis is JUST RIGHT, and I have fun driving it, every day. I can't imagine how much more fun I would have driving the BMW, but I suppose I would, but I could not buy the 5.35 because I don't trust the turbo engine yet. I don't want a high maintenance car. I think low maintenance is part of my definition of luxury.
I don't know how anyone gets used to the way it rides. Granted, mine is an early build 09, (probably one of the first off the boats) and there was a suspension change mid year 09, but mine is to the point that I hate to drive it. You have no idea what the car is going to do next. Mine is stiff in the front, oversprung and bouncy in the rear, the steering requires constant adjustment to stay straight ahead and transmits every bump in the road through the steering wheel.
IMO none of these behaviors are constant with "luxury" I do tend to like a floaty ride, but I have driven other stiffly suspended cars that just act differently than the Genesis.
What I can't understand is how everything else about the car is superb. The interior is beautiful, comfortable, and holding up nicely. The car is tight and rattle free and aside from the power steering wheel limit switch it has been reliable. ">
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
wrong like usual -l the fact that Hyundai also sells perfectly fine and relatively cheap mass market vehicles likie the Sonata/Elantra etc has much to do with the fact that Hyundai will NEVER find room in the luxury market
I am more interested in upcoming Hyundai engines more than anything else. They are forcing everyone else to finally get technology moving along after a slow several year period of advancement.
H could potentially have some kind of impact on the big players here - if anything it could help to keep prices from escalating...but I just don't see it happening on a global basis.
Next time you're at the library or neighborhood magazine rack, read the September Automobile Magazine article on Hyundai--it might give you more to think about.
Rhetoric... that's funny, coming from you.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
The most important components of success are talent and the inability to give up. Who wants to bet a Korean Co lacks either?
I remember when Japanese cars were the disposable junk bought for the price value. No one's saying that now.
I find the Hyundai bashing somewhat humorous. We're not dealing with Yugo's and Trabants built in a communist country, we're talking cars from a country that is hungry to be the best.
They already dominate the LPGA, and it's no accident.
I only wish the American Co's had the ability to move as fast. I would love to buy an American car I could love. Cadillac is about there, but I don't fit well in the cockpit's of the sportier versions, and I don't like the origami styling.
Maybe a Buick? Oh wait, the newest are really German designs.
If I want rhetoric, I will look for Krafcik :shades:
On a note somewhat related to the highline H cars, I see the Phaeton is coming back to the states. I wonder what brought that on.
ahh but they aren't branded the same are they?.
In the often obtuse and illogical world of brand perceptions, folks will buy a true lux car simply because of that badge. Hyundai's only mistake here is NOT the cars they are choosing to now produce, it is the fact they are not estabishing that separate luxury brand (and dealership) to sell it - something the brand and status conscious AMERICAN consumer has repeatedly demanded.
You can crow all you want about how wonderful a Hyundai this or that may be - but it won't change the fact that a Hyundai branded anything will never be considered on the same level as those German brands, and even those J3 ones.
In your case you will never accept that Hyundai could achieve it.
You are still stuck in the dayswhen you lived in Korea in the late 80's when they were still making Excels.
It will be the next generation that will determine Hyundai's future as they will have little or no knowledge of Hyundai's past just what they see now the future product.
actually more like the mid 80s, and I actually worked in Ulsan, a very very large (and impressive) facilility that made cars as well as many other things. The Korean predecessor to the Excel was called the Pony over there BTW and were also almost all LPG fueled. Yes they were junky deathtraps, not far removed from those first 'disposable' cars sent over here. Not so much different than those first Toyotas sent over here in the mid 60s.
My how times have changed! A Japanese brand that became a standard by which others were judged and now a Korean brand that someday would like to do the same?
Example: one article noted that Hyundai should be no longer considered an underdog but has demonstated thru its products that it is now a leader.
Also again its not you or me that will decide if Hyundai will become recognized as a maker of luxury automobiles but our next generation, assuming Hyundai continues to tranform itself. Will there be bumps on way ... of course.
Who would have thought just 10 years ago the amount of progress that Hyundai has made especially in the last 5.
Option 1: If at first you don't succeed...
Option 2: "Ach, Franz! Hyundai is selling luxury cars under their own brand in the US; why don't we give it a try again?"
Option 3: Hope springs eternal.
Actually in all but one case, they are, and in EVERY case they are sold alongside the luxury models from these brands:
* Infiniti G25, starting about $30k, overlaps the Sonata (one of the cars you mentioned re Hyundai selling mass market cars) in price.
* The new Lexus CT 200h will start at $27k (source: C/D) and also overlaps the Sonata in price.
* The Acura TSX starts at about $29k, and overlaps the Sonata in price.
* BMW dealerships sell BMW's Mini Cooper cars alongside BMWs in the same dealerships; they start at under $19k and overlap both the Sonata and Elantra in price.
And MB sells the A Class in many countries outside the US, and that is definitely a "mass market" car in the same general price range as the Sonata (and maybe the Elantra also).
So if it is a mistake for Hyundai to sell their luxury cars alongside mass market cars with the same brand, in the same dealership, it must be a mistake for all those other automakers. Unless you are applying a double standard?
The model never died off in Europe, although from what I can tell was mainly bought by corporate and rental fleets.
PS you'll have a helluva time finding any Mini for $16k - they easily will also get past $30k - even if you bite on the rather strange assertion that a Mini must be a BMW because they often are sold at the same place.
BTW 'entry level models' are one of those things that plainly test a brand's place in the luxury market. It may make it easier to own a BMW or MB, for example, but those 1s and Cs are really nothing more 'upscale' with the badge and they dilute the brand exclusivity that is a very important part of what is and is not luxury.
no problem with this either although my contention is that 5 or 10 years is not likely enough time to change those second tier perceptions that Hyunndai did earn for their past indiscretions.
Thinking again back to 1990 - it was in part Toyota's sterling reputation as well as the way that they chose to market (swanky Lexus dealerships) that was the reasons for the LSs success. IMO when the Hyundai association becomes an asset and when they choose to sell the Genesis products in a similar manner THAT is when Hyundai may find the 'room'.
How did you figure that? Let's look at Hyundai's US sales YTD and see:
CARLINE July/2010 July/2009 CY/2010 CY/2009
------- --------- --------- ------- -------
ACCENT 3,960 7,634 31,038 40,562
SONATA 17,836 13,381 107,085 73,862
ELANTRA 18,215 13,616 75,779 53,520
TIBURON 0 151 0 8,497
SANTA FE 7,047 6,793 51,423 40,266
AZERA 218 306 1,799 2,257
TUCSON 3,698 1,106 23,387 8,658
ENTOURAGE 0 32 0 3,375
VERACRUZ 823 519 4,177 7,289
GENESIS 2,309 2,015 15,200 11,953
TOTAL 54,106 45,553 309,888 250,239
The Accent and Elantra go for under $20k (might be possible to get a loaded Elantra Touring over $20k, but let's be conservative). The only Tucson that is under $20k is the strippo base stick model, and that's $19.8k, no options. If you've looked, you know there's almost none of those around--but again let's be conservative and say 4000 of the 23,387 Tucsons were base stick no-options models. That's a total of 110,817 sub-$20k vehicles on Hyundai dealer lots in 2010--a little over 1/3. Hardly 50% or more as you asserted. Hyundais are no longer priced as low as they were a few years ago. For example, the new Mazda2 is priced lower, comparably equipped, than the Accent sedan! And the Elantra is pretty close to cars like the Corolla and Sentra in price. Ditto the Sonata to the Camry.
BTW, I didn't say the Mini was $16k--I said they started just under $19k.
Also I assure you that not all Hyundai dealerships are "grundgy", employ low-level market sales tactics, and have "low life" sales staffs.
No, not easily repeatable. But repeatable. Or doable, even if not done in quite the same way automakers like MB and BMW did it.
Is that with this month's-long battle is based on? Fully completely? If that's enough to stop Hyundai luxury car market opportunites then luxury car buyers are simply their own cup of tea completely. The first image of this type of buyer that just popped in to my head was none other than The Donald. Donald Trump.
I rest my case. I have people telling me online that this carmaker from Germany, VW, has grandiose plans of being the world's top automaker by the year 2018. Can VW get away with grabbing luxury car market share, Edmunds' panel of luxo-car experts? I'd love to know this.
Because I don't trust their carmaking skill quality. Got a lot of internet reading in over the years that tells me that VW is known for crappy reliability, especially related to their ability to electrically wire their rigs. That stay together electrically and continue to work fine, for years, under all types of weather.
Hyundai and Kia and Mitsubishi don't have these problems. Who gave VW their excessively good feelings about theirselves, I wonder?
Panel, I'd love to read your comments regarding these issues.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
or $30k or $40k ..... 'luxury' is certainly subjective and may indeed be nothing more than a collection of bells, whistles and other specs as somebody like backy would have us believe. OR what is luxury could certainly be that and more - also getting into those murky areas that go beyond some wood shards in a leather interior, maybe something to do with how a brand is perceived, how prestiguous that brand is, how difficult it is to attain (also a variable definition as you suggest) etc. etc. Which has been my point all along.
Can Hyundai ever elevate its brandname to a level approaching those German brands or even the premium J3 ones? Not if they continue to live in the lowest extremes of the auto business IMO- simply because mass market brands by definition can not have the necessary exclusivity to also have a place in what can be considered the 'luxury' market.
I personally think the automobile marketplace is overloaded as it is. GM still has two, too many brands, Ford just dumped Mercury and sales overall still aren't lighting the world on fire. To me, from a business standpoint (regardless of product) there is simply not "room" for another luxury division. How in the heck would Hyundai justify all the operating costs for the (relatively) small amount of Genesis sales. To think they would have sold more at a separate dealership with a higher price is laughable.
If anything they gave their dealers another product to sell and boost overall volume and perception. I believe the suits over at Hyundai knew there was no way to break into the luxury market at this time. It's not the Gen that is making Hyundai successful right now. The Sonata, Elantra, Santa Fe and Tucson are paying the bills, none of which are luxury.
The upcoming Equus is simply a "halo" product that will sell a few units initially and fade into the marketplace. 35/40K for a Genesis is one thing, but once you go above that things change alot. That upper 30s, pricepoint is not uncommon at mainstream dealers (think of a Tahoe or 2500 pickup) but above that is a totally different customer that IMO Hyundai doens't have the dealer network to service properly.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
perhaps , but is the Gen sedan customer really somebody that just left a Lexus/BMW/MB showroom, or one more like you - that's is weighing that product against similarily priced cars in the same upscale category? As an 'upscale sedan' Genesis sales are nothing really remarkable.
While we will never know what kind of sales the LS would've experienced had it been branded as a Toyota, we do know what happened with Mazda and VW mainstream branded and marketed as those entrants were. In my mind, Hyundai still needs to separate the products much in the same way the J3 did 20 years ago - they may just find out that there are a slew of existing Hyundai dealers willing to build the buildings and pay for the privilege of selling that new 'luxury' car called a Genesis. That's happened before too.
and the Sonata doesn't? Even after Hyundai got done dumping all those 2009s (great for that legendary Hyundai resale value) to make way for the 2010s? Do some more googling - sooner or later you'll find something to support your contentions, it is hard to find even other mainstream mfgrs that sell things for less money than what your beloved Hyundai does. Well, perhaps Kia!
People buy them because they tend to have nice interior materials and they drive nicely. That's what gives them the good feelings. Save for a very few models, H K and M don't have those traits.
Yes, it has. The only difference is at that time there wasn't as many luxury companies in the game as there are now. Infiniti was just starting, and Acura was still fairly new as well. They were fighting the Germans, Hyundai would have to fight all of them.
Lets just say hypothetically Hyundai decides to put together a luxury lineup consisting of the following:
Rebadge Sonata w/ new Turbo 4 and lots of tech (think cross between TL / ES350)
Genesis (GS, E and 5 series fighter)
Equus (LS, 7 and S fighter)
Veracruz rebadge (RX)
Gen Coupe (IS, TSX?)
Now pour millions of dollars into developing these models and a marketing plan. Let's assume that the dealer foot the bill to be able to sell these new models at "Genesis" dealers. At what point does all this turn a profit in this market?
The market is already covered in various forms of lux cars.... You have Lexus for the soft cushy crowd, Acura, Infiniti, and BMW for the sporty crowd, and Mercedes for a little bit of both. If anything a Hyundai luxury division would end up being a Lexus clone.
Hyundai first needs to continue to plow ahead in improving brand perception and market share, then worry about luxury later. The last thing they need is another divsion to soak up profits. Hasn't anyone learned from GM's mistakes?
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Back when Lexus and Infiniti were getting started, there was a lot of press about Mazda doing the same thing ... setting up an 'upscale' brand. IIRC, the Millenia was meant to be the first model of the new brand. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed and the proposed brand never came into being.
Hyundai should follow Mazda's example and not create a second brand. The Genesis and Equus are, as noted above, "halo" vehicles that will draw some interested parties into the Hyundai showrooms. They will draw buyers who are shopping at a particular price point and view the Hyundai offerings as an alternative where they can get more for their money.
The $30-45K price range offers an incredible amount of choices .. everything from SUV's and CUV's to smaller BMW's and MB's. It's quite likely that a shopper looking for something in that price range may look at the Genesis and decide they can get a larger car with a V8 and RWD for the same price as a moderately equipped 3-series, LaCrosse or TL.
Based on the sales figures I believe that is exactly what happened. The hardcore luxury buyers (with the income to back it up) are not thinking of the Genesis when shopping. I personally believe (although many here disagree with me) that the primary competition for the Gen is the Avalon, Max, Taurus and LaCrosse while being loosely cross-shopped with the TL, ES, and G.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
No, it doesn't. Recall what you said, which is what I replied to: you talked about cars sitting on dealer lots priced at under $20k. No Sonata today is priced under $20k. Do some new ones sell for under $20k? Sure. But that isn't the point. Also, if you do some research you'll find out-the-door pricing on the new Sonatas holding up quite well. Notice there's no general rebates on those cars, and many dealers are holding firm on prices due to high demand.
Anyway, your argument of "Hyundai can't sell luxury cars alongside mass market cars and be successful" is already disproven, based on experience from several other automakers. I think you need to come up with another excuse as to why Hyundai can't be successful in the luxury market.