latest poll has 61% saying let GM fail, and 22% wanting to bail them out. With the rest not caring one way or the other. I am sure most are tired of hearing about the UAW wanting to maintain their fancy lifestyle even if the companies go broke.
Again, this is not the all Obama show when it comes to bailouts. Seems to me he's trying to get us out fo that business one way or another.
Are any of the people on the Obama team successful business men, or just career politicians? They are probably fine for bringing down the axe on GM and C. I don't think they have what it takes to run a successful auto company. Obama keeps saying he wants a new and better GM. That does not sound like he wants to get anyone out of the mess. Just make a bigger one.
The people that don't like GM would say "oh they aren't working on anything, they aren't doing anything new, yada yada" and would continue to whine about paying too much in taxes and all the foreclosed houses while zipping along in their Priuses.
If GM issues a press release, the people that don't like GM would say "oh they aren't working on anything, they aren't doing anything new, yada yada" and would continue to whine about paying too much in taxes and all the foreclosed houses while zipping along in their Priuses.
Perhaps the "people who don't like GM" would like to see a car announced say, 3-6 months before availability, like most car companies, followed by an actual PRODUCT. I didn't hear much about the Fusion hybrid until it had some real reviews only a few months before availability. That's about right. Four years advance advertising - surely you can't be serious that such vaporware is a good way to do business? Or only perhaps when the emperor has no clothes?
So you are saying they need to now change the name?
An excellent idea. Such a horrible stigma with the old name. The company that failed to compete for 30 years and then picked our pockets of $billions before going under. What a great corporate image.
GM and the UAW have competing interests but obviously they cooperate more than they try to kill each other.
Wrong, they rarely cooperated with each other (even strikes as late as last year). Now that they are both on the ship that's going down they are belatedly thinking they maybe should cooperate. Something that has been obvious to a lot of us for many years.
Even financially the Volt simply doesn't make sense. Like I said, it'll take roughly 15 years to recover the cost difference vs. Insight's. So which will you choose realistically, a 25k Insight or a 40k (okay 32k after rebates) Volt? :P
Volt believers can say whatever they want, I vote with my green (the other "green", btw).
Are any of the people on the Obama team successful business men, or just career politicians? They are probably fine for bringing down the axe on GM and C. I don't think they have what it takes to run a successful auto company. Obama keeps saying he wants a new and better GM. That does not sound like he wants to get anyone out of the mess. Just make a bigger one.
Well, Obama isn't the one who signed blank checks...he did actually say "better plan or Bankruptcy." Which turned out to be Bankruptcy it looks like. That's going in the right direction: an exit strategy. This is a good thing...it's making a turn onto the right road. We're stuck with being the DIP financiers during the BK process, but that was going to happen anyway, and probably is why Obama wanted a quick BK process rather than a drawn-out one. Not perfect, but more reasonable.
As a result of that process, he wants a new and better GM. I would think anyone who loves GM should agree, but we do see a lot of people who seem to prefer the old/current GM over a new and better (and profitable) GM. Some of them are on these very message boards and it makes me scratch my head. :shades:
And actually, a few people on the Obama team are actually successful businessmen....maybe one or two. :shades: Given the fact that people who work in Washington typically do so because they can't get a real job in private industry, this is an improvement. :P
I am sure most are tired of hearing about the UAW wanting to maintain their fancy lifestyle even if the companies go broke.
The UAW lifestyle isn't THAT fancy. Though yeah, they are overpaid. Want to see fancy lifestyles? Some more overpaid people include Waggoner, Lutz, Fritz Henderson, and pretty much any American GM engineer involved with the G3, G5, Aveo, Aztek, Volt, the Mild Hybrid project, etc.
Steve, it's a real mess. Remember, the "loyal opposition" tends to have corporations like GM as part of it's power base. We have the Administration that has unions like the UAW as part of its power base.
Personally, while I WOULD like the BK process to go as quick as possible, I can understand some wanting to take a breath and make sure it goes right, rather than leaving us with trouble a year or two down the road.
However, I'm thinking said loyal opposition has an ulterior motive, and I find myself wondering what it is. If it's just to give them more taxpayer dollars, then they're putting a gun in the mouth of their party and pulling the trigger. Not that I wouldn't put it past them, but it's a dumb move politically, and (hopefully) they haven't gotten that stupid. *thinks back to the past decade* I really REALLY hope they're not that stupid.... :sick:
Even financially the Volt simply doesn't make sense. Like I said, it'll take roughly 15 years to recover the cost difference vs. Insight's. So which will you choose realistically, a 25k Insight or a 40k (okay 32k after rebates) Volt?
Riiiight, because the Prius made sense when it came out...and we know no one bought that "just to be green."
The payback on a Prius when it came out was in the decade range, and only dropped now because of the "assumed resale value," which has plummeted as gas went down again.
I really have no strong love for GM, the last GM car I owned myself was a 70s Nova (which was actually a great car at the time), but I think the arguments are not so fair and balanced in here.
All I see is the UAW members voting to take from the retirees that are without a real voice in the process. How is cutting retirement benefits a sacrifice by the working UAW members?
I'm not sure that slowing down is the answer. I think the sooner they liquidate both companies the sooner the auto industry can right itself and become viable once again. Though smaller. My guess is we will never see the sales of 2007 again. The main reason, it was built on poor lending practices. Too many of those vehicles were bought with home equity loans, where no equity exists.
Any tax dollars spent at this point should be to facilitate bankruptcy liquidation. We have to accept that GM and Chrysler ran themselves into the ground and it is not the responsibility of the tax payer to keep them afloat.
GM went skydiving without a parachute and with weights attached to their ankles over the middle of the North Atlantic.
I believe that is an excellent analogy...you had previously posted some of their previous sky diving attempts such as the Cimmaron and many other "no-parachute" products! :lemon:
This is the Granddaddy of all: Producing gas guzzlers into a firming global energy market and negotiating unpayable benefits and wages in a profitable business. Perfect storm of failures, wouldn't you say? Almost forgot, add the "crying for aid" to Washington as the "Forgot to fuel the plane" before the sky diving mission to the storm surge!
Actually, this should clean out most of the garbage so I look at it as a net positive as far as the industry is concerned but a gross negative as far as the national debt is concerned.
Under the GM draft bankruptcy plan, the company would receive about $30 billion in additional federal loans, a source said, a total that would boost the government's investment in GM to nearly $45 billion.
Listen, I shoped a Toyota Highlander Hybrid vs. the ICE version and the payback was 10 years to break even so no sale.
The Prius vs. the Volt would be the same argument. That's all I'm saying. I understand the US needs to go ahead with an electric car but the point is that the current auto companies did not have the brains to invest far earlier...like continuing the EV-1 for the future.
You chose your strategy and take your lumps...the Asians LIVE fuel economy. We do not until the sky falls.
If my CR-V was produced by Chevy or Dodge or Ford, it would still be sitting in my garage.
Riiiight, because the Prius made sense when it came out...and we know no one bought that "just to be green."
The payback on a Prius when it came out was in the decade range, and only dropped now because of the "assumed resale value," which has plummeted as gas went down again.
The Prius was also half the price they're threatening to sell the Volt for, before any rebates. The Prius was always targeted to be a volume vehicle with a volume pricetag. The Volt, at $40k....isn't.
Nick Reilly, GM Asia-Pacific President and his deputy Kevin Wale provided info for the Time article.
Wages and benefits of Chinese workers are one-tenth that of a US worker. This is one reason why GM will begin exporting Chinese made GMs to the US. As factories in the US are downsized and closed Reilly sees China becoming a significant exporter of cars.
Sales of GM cars in China accounted for 13 percent of GM global total. GM is rolling out 5 new Chevrolet models and 5 new Buick models over next 2 years in China.
Quality is not an issue since GM's Chinese plants are as good as its factories anywhere else.
When Chinese made autos from GM start increasing in the future, more UAW jobs will be at risk. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----------------------------------- Maybe the Chinese should be bailing out GM. Wonder how soon GM engineers in US will be asked to start training Chinese engineers to take over their jobs.
The Prius was also half the price they're threatening to sell the Volt for, before any rebates. The Prius was always targeted to be a volume vehicle with a volume pricetag. The Volt, at $40k....isn't.
Thousands of buyers paid $30k+ for their Prius. They went for over MSRP which could go as high as $30k. Even with the cuts last year you can pay close to $28k for a loaded Prius. Of course now with the downturn it is more of a buyers market. Early on it was the $3100 tax credit that fueled the buying and the dealers were trying to get as much of that as they could.
If the Volt were to materialize by some miracle, and the $7500 tax credit was usable for the buyer, I don't think the $32k figure is that awful. My guess is it will only work for a small demographic. Tax credits are not allowed to those of US stuck with AMT by the IRS. And many lower income folks do not pay $7500 in Federal Income tax. Unless they let you take the credit over several years.
I think for those that want a hybrid with an American Name plate. The Fusion or Escape is the best choice. Too many IFs with the Volt.
GM is rolling out 5 new Chevrolet models and 5 new Buick models over next 2 years in China.
Lemko needs to get with the program. China has the best looking Buick on the Planet. Makes ours including the 2010 LaCrosse look sad. If GM could just fold up all their US manufacturing and sell off those assets they could probably survive.
Yeah, that is the other thing. the Fusion does just as well if not better, is cheaper, is bigger, and is actually HERE. Which means the Volt is in trouble before even materializing.
You'll have to show me the questions and the pattern thereof same on the poll to convince me people actually know what they saying "yes" to.
We all know from polls that the order of the questions can affect people's answers. Also things like the media does where they push their opinion about something and how good or how awful it is for several days then they poll people and find the people regurgitate that opinion and the media says, "See, we had it right."
I suspect if you ask the question after questions asking if the public wants many suppliers to close (as has happened in this area) and people there lose their jobs, as well as the democrat UAW workers, and if the public wants their area's economy to drop even lower, you'd get many fewer saying they want GM or Chrysler to fail.
If you ask if people want GM to reorganize and be able to drop the UAW workers and employ new ones, you'd get a number higher than 61% in favor, in a properly arranged poll intended to be neutral. --Keith
Osama has said many things during the campaign and since that he doesn't intend to follow up on. He's trianglulating as did Clinton, saying one thing, doing another, and having both groups of supplicants thinking he's doing as they want him to do.
You'll have to show me the questions and the pattern thereof same on the poll to convince me people actually know what they saying "yes" to.
Posted April 1 2009
Despite GM's insistence to the contrary, a recent poll has shown that a majority of Americans believe that the U.S. economy can still recover if GM fails. The majority was also against further assistance to Chrysler and GM and believes one or both will be out of business soon.
Rasmussen's latest poll, which was conducted on Monday and Tuesday of this week, found that 76% of Americans believe that the economy will not be inescapably damaged if GM fails, believing instead that the economy will still recover. Only 15% believed GM would take the economy down with it, while 9% were unsure. More specifically, the poll found that 74% of non-investors and 77% of investors believe that "the economy can bounce back, even if GM doesn't."
The poll also found that 62% of Americans are against any further taxpayer-backed loans to the automakers and 59% believe that Chrysler or GM going out of business in the next few years is either "somewhat likely" or "very likely." The poll surveyed 1000 voters across the country and had a margin of error of +/- 3%.
Source: The Detroit Free Press
At the end of the day, we can discuss if it is cheaper the way it happens or if it would have been more beneficial to have had GM go C11 last December where there is now 6 months wasted that could have seen a new company already emerge.
Personally, while I WOULD like the BK process to go as quick as possible, I can understand some wanting to take a breath and make sure it goes right
I suppose Delphi will still be around after their reorganization has drug out for what, five years now?
But a quick bankruptcy accomplishes several things - it gets the company away from judicial oversight, normalizes relationships with suppliers and employees, and gets rid of any stigma that being in banko has these days. And a fast reorganization tells their creditors and car buyers that the company can move fast and get its act together.
Stalling just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
The loyal opposition continues to get hammered by the UAW too:
If the Saturn Spring Hill plant shuts down, Coker's future ambitions will always be shadowed by his prominent position in opposing the auto bailouts. That could be a good thing, but it still provides a lot of ammo to his opponents whenever he opens his mouth to talk about jobs.
what do you mean by "AMT" in relation to the IRS and Obama's "green car" rebate?
Some comments on the Chevy Volt, I still think it's only going to sell to a "niche" of American buyers. It's first year might see sales of 20,000 U.S. Volt's.
I would buy a Chinese-built 2011 e6 over a Volt and I would definitely buy a 2010 Mitsubishi i-MiEV over a 2011 Chevy Volt. One big reason? Lower cost. With the Obama rebate the i-MiEV will retail for around $$23,000 and the e6 with rebate around $21,000. And I think both will have good build quality, with the solid build quality nod definitely going to Mitsubishi.
I am getting more excited about buying us a 2010 Mitsubishi i-MiEV because not only is Ideal Mitsubishi selling Mitsu's in Sierra Vista, AZ, about 80 miles SW of us(I get my maintenance work done there) but Jim Click is selling Mitsubishi's now in Tucson proper(east 22nd St.). So now if I buy one of the first i-MiEV's I can do a quick re-charge at that dealership or the Sierra Vista one. I know I'll want to buy Mitsu's quick re-charge unit for my i-MiEV. You get an 80% re-charge in only 15 minutes! Also, we have a 220-amp service at our house, now, and we have a dryer outlet right next to our carport. So we're all set for purchase.
I love my Lancer so much and buying a car is expensive, of course, but an i-MiEV for only $23,000 would fit nicely in our budget.
I'm getting a strong urge to buy another Pomeranian, too, from a Tucson outlet. My son and I saw her yesterday, she's 9 weeks old and is an active little squirtplug. We already have two Pom's and one Chow Chow and two cats in our 3 bed, 1 1/2 bath Willcox, AZ, home, so I thought about giving the Chow to my son to take back to his rental home in Oro Valley, 12 miles north of Tucson.
Have ta get back to y'all on these developments. Once they take the puppy out and let you hold it the process of bonding begins.
GM has 18% market share and you want to use polls to explain their problems? The polls would have to show less than 20% favor to mean anything.
Since GM is now a 1/5 of the market competitor at best, I don't expect them to come out of the BK any less than 1/6 or 1/7 of the market. We are talking 3 or 4 manufacturers bigger than GM for that to even happen.
Just keep holding your breath on the liquidation idea.
S. Korea probably wants 1/4 of the US market and so does China.
Our midwest area is now seeing the droves of teachers, firemen, and police getting laid off as the tax base shrinks. Maybe Marysville or Georgetown will spread the wealth around.
>Our midwest area is now seeing the droves of teachers, firemen, and police getting laid off as the tax base shrinks. Maybe Marysville or Georgetown will spread the wealth around.
I still didn't see the questions and the order in which they are asked on that polling.
Many of the people have an attitude of "get back at GM" for something in the past. They don't care about the many people in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, and other states that may be hurt further by the cutbacks. There is a poetic justice in that the folks tooling around in their foreign cars are going to help pay to restart GM and C just as they restarted and will continue to pay for the financials. Many of the older folk will find that their SS and free medicare and medicaid will be cut. Younger folks will find it's gone. Maybe buying more US made would have kept income going to the SS and other aid programs. But I know Obama isn't going to cut the welfare type programs. Those people vote and in this area they soundly went for Obama. Even the lady who ordered and allowed "the Ohio plumber's" state records was originally running the entitlements in Montgomery Cty.
An example to think about when people gripe about what unions have gained. A friend had a hospital error and a 4 day stay has now been 35 days, with 10-12 in intensive care and all but 4 in transition intensive care. His wife worked 30 hours at a major company in Kentucky (right-to-work) 3 days per week. After 2 weeks when the husband nearly had died, she was told by the company to apply for the Fed Family leave. When she did, she was told she wasn't on the employment list, so they couldn't help her. The company had already dismissed her because she was going to be using the Fed Leave. Of course, the workers in the plant, but as a financial officer person she is not in the union. I suggested she talk to the union leaders as well as her own attorney. Although she's not in the union, they may have interest in helping.
So it's nice to kvetch about the benefits that in some cases came from unions. But when the lack thereof applies to you or someone you know, it's a little different. Did I mention that they have 3 adopted kids. Now noone's working.
Listen, I shopped a Toyota Highlander Hybrid vs. the ICE version and the payback was 10 years to break even so no sale.
Right, and no one else bought it either right? Because there is no emotion involved in buying a car, its all about the most practical cheapest way to get from point A to point B...
The Prius vs. the Volt would be the same argument. That's all I'm saying.
But its not the same argument, people aren't buying a Prius to save money. People are buying it because it's "Green." And you know what, Gd bless them for it. If that is how they feel they are helping the environment driving around in an underpowered floaty penalty box, thats awesome.
The payback on a Prius when it came out was in the decade range, and only dropped now because of the "assumed resale value," which has plummeted as gas went down again.
The Prius was also half the price they're threatening to sell the Volt for, before any rebates. The Prius was always targeted to be a volume vehicle with a volume pricetag. The Volt, at $40k....isn't.
The Prius was priced at the max someone would pay for an underpowered sub-compact. The Volt is closer to the Tesla than the Prius - its a BEV with an on-board generator.
But its not the same argument, people aren't buying a Prius to save money. People are buying it because it's "Green."
Remember, you like dealing with facts. Most did buy Prius because of financial rather than "green". That's why sales peaked during the previous energy price spike.
Unlike classic technology “early adopters,” people who purchased Prius automobiles did not feel that they paid a premium for the privilege of owning an environmentally friendly car. While the environmental benefits were a major consideration for them, they also saw clear financial benefits from their purchase, says a new study, Why People Really Buy Hybrids, by Topline Strategy Group.
I'll try to help you stay on track as the cost is EXACTLY what is top priority in each Hybrid segment vs. the ICE equivalent. When cost parity is reached, Hybrid sales will exceed the oil burners.
Plug-in is going to take even longer to make a great financial case unless we get back to >$5/gal. gas. The point is, past attempts by Detroit regarding fuel efficiency were feeble at best and shows they were asleep at the wheel as the Asians spanked their pants (and market share) off!
The Telsa will leave the Volt in the dust and it's a niche brand as will be the Volt for a long time until electric tech and infrastructure become mainstream. The Hybrids will rule in the interim. That is precisely why the Volt will not work out for whatever we will call GM going forward. The smart move would be to realize this and price it as a nich brand to ensure some form of payback to reinvest in further devlopment for a future main stream nameplate.
The Prius and the Insight will rule for the foreseeable future until the skeleton of Detroit morphs into a strong technology-based auto industry here in the USA.
At the end of the day, the Volt would have NEVER saved GM. Another pie in the sky advertisement to promote a failed brand.
Right, and no one else bought it either right? Because there is no emotion involved in buying a car, its all about the most practical cheapest way to get from point A to point B...
There is no emotion such as desire with most of the vehicles on the market now, let alone a Highlander. If the Hybrid saves you pulling out of the Dealer on day one, it leads sales. Not going to happen and parity after 10 years will not work in this economy. Prius and Insight win on that score.
Wherever you been?? It's the point A -B thing these days. As the big oil guys continue to rule the landscape, all emotion is removed unless you could care less about spending more on gas then your rent. There is plenty of emotion in the performance/luxury segment if that's what floats your boat.
That may have been about 15 years ago. The Dex-Cool in my '99 PA has 117K on it, my '04 Silverado has 90K and the "04 Rainier has 55K. All no problems. The '96 Saturn we had, I noticed caking in the expansion tank, but no problems. We only had it for about 25K though.
Any tax dollars spent at this point should be to facilitate bankruptcy liquidation. We have to accept that GM and Chrysler ran themselves into the ground and it is not the responsibility of the tax payer to keep them afloat.
That's the most accurate and concise encapsulation of this situation I have yet seen. Hear hear!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
it turns in to a Socialist idea, that we all should care enough to want to keep GM running if nothing else but to save GM and Chrysler jobs.
Ford seems to have totally righted itself. The new Ford Fusion Hybrid and it's 81.5mpg run the other day is absolutely incredible and got my attention. I have put the Ford Fusion Hybrid in third place on my "green" car list.
1) 2010 Mitsubishi i-MiEV 2) 2011 BYD e6 3) 2011 Ford Fusion Hybrid
Riiiight, because the Prius made sense when it came out...and we know no one bought that "just to be green." The payback on a Prius when it came out was in the decade range, and only dropped now because of the "assumed resale value," which has plummeted as gas went down again.
Of course I'm right. :P
Prius owners buy them just to be green, there's no financial purposes there, right? I'd say it's true for original Prius, but at roughly 25k the roomy 2nd gen and current model are just as practical as they are green . And I don't make my calculations based on resale value, in fact I never put them into consideration at all.
Remember this one point carefully: at least a Prius doesn't cost almost $40k.
The Prius was priced at the max someone would pay for an underpowered sub-compact. The Volt is closer to the Tesla than the Prius - its a BEV with an on-board generator.
What makes Volt any different than a Prius? It's projected to be just as poor performing, plus remember: only 40 miles range on battery alone.
Tesla is a whole other animal, which I agree with OW will leave Volt in the dust. Volt will never be anywhere near a Tesla in any aspect, try making a more sensible comparison.
I'm not saying electric vehicle is a bad idea, but no matter how good an idea is, it's totally useless without enough R&D, which is exactly what's happening with Volt.
You want us to check the facts, sure, but be fair and do the same.
P.S: I don't see a single true GM hater here. A true GM religious follower? Yes I do see one, or more.
".....When the heck will we taxpayers get to stop bailing out GM. Do not agree with $7,500 rebate. Perhaps $500-$1000 might be acceptable - think that Prius had some kind of US govt rebate, but nowhere near $7,500."
The $7500 is not JUST for the Volt. It is for ANY car using a 16kw battery set. The Volt qualifies under that category, as does the Tesla, IIRC.
Remember, you like dealing with facts. Most did buy Prius because of financial rather than "green". That's why sales peaked during the previous energy price spike.
Riiigiht, and what is payoff for a Prius...back into that whole decade thing again. Gas prices went through the roof (in 2008, not 2001 when it was introduced) and suddenly they were hot. You know what, so was the Cobalt and Focus. Now gas prices dropped, inventory new and used is piled up...now what is breakeven?
Unlike classic technology “early adopters,” people who purchased Prius automobiles did not feel that they paid a premium for the privilege of owning an environmentally friendly car. While the environmental benefits were a major consideration for them, they also saw clear financial benefits from their purchase, says a new study, Why People Really Buy Hybrids, by Topline Strategy Group.
People believe what they want to believe and will spin things accordingly. You think GM is the root of all evil and nothing they do will change your mind; thats fine. People think they are "saving money" by paying $2500 extra for a car can believe what they want as well. All of the data I've seen said they did it to either 1. be green, or 2. end reliance on foreign oil.
I'll try to help you stay on track as the cost is EXACTLY what is top priority in each Hybrid segment vs. the ICE equivalent. When cost parity is reached, Hybrid sales will exceed the oil burners.
Actually, the topic is GM news, new models and market share. I am still failing to see your point here...what you are saying is that when hybrid drivetrains are free relative to existing technology, they will be more popular? :confuse:
Hmm, something I have to pay extra for, vs something that is free...which one do I want....
The Telsa will leave the Volt in the dust and it's a niche brand as will be the Volt for a long time until electric tech and infrastructure become mainstream.
Riiight, so since you are so caught up on cost, how much is that Tesla right now...oh yeah $109,000. That is 5 zeros. So for 30% of that I can get a BEV with an onboard generator so I don't need a second vehicle to go on trips? Yeah thats terrible. Shoot me now.
At the end of the day, the Volt would have NEVER saved GM. Another pie in the sky advertisement to promote a failed brand.
That is your argument, not mine. This whole one vehicle saving a company thing is kind of silly.
There is no emotion such as desire with most of the vehicles on the market now, let alone a Highlander. If the Hybrid saves you pulling out of the Dealer on day one, it leads sales. Not going to happen and parity after 10 years will not work in this economy. Prius and Insight win on that score.
Wherever you been?? It's the point A -B thing these days. As the big oil guys continue to rule the landscape, all emotion is removed unless you could care less about spending more on gas then your rent. There is plenty of emotion in the performance/luxury segment if that's what floats your boat.
The Insight isn't even a real Hybrid. It is always using its ICE.
As far as A-B, I think that sounds like a comment from someone who is not in that market anyway. While I concur that I couldn't imagine anyone getting excited about a Camry (or a Lexus knock off, for that matter), the Fusion Sport, Mazdaspeed3, VW Jetta (and TDI) all seem to evoke emotion without being "luxury."
Just because I can't afford a BMW right this second doesn't mean my automotive life has to suck.
I'd say it's true for original Prius, but at roughly 25k the roomy 2nd gen and current model are just as practical as they are green
Mazda6 0-60: 6.5 seconds (edmunds- random $25k car) Prius 0-60: 11 seconds
And I don't make my calculations based on resale value, in fact I never put them into consideration at all.
And the environment thanks you. I guess if you live in LA and drive 20k a year, you made a good financial decision...and you get to use the carpool lane. If you live in a place where gas is still in the $2 range and you see speeds above 30 on the highway, eh, whatever helps you sleep at night.
Remember this one point carefully: at least a Prius doesn't cost almost $40k.
Hmm a Lexus HS250 probably does...pricing hasn't been release yet...nor has an official price for the Volt.
I suspect if you ask the question after questions asking if the public wants many suppliers to close (as has happened in this area) and people there lose their jobs, as well as the democrat UAW workers, and if the public wants their area's economy to drop even lower, you'd get many fewer saying they want GM or Chrysler to fail.
The first does not necessarily follow the second...and while said suppliers must take some responsibility (who's bright idea was it to tie their fortunes so closely to one or two large customers? Without thinking about what happens if one of both of them either go away or simply take their business somewhere else?) it can be argued that said suppliers have less direct fault regarding their situation, and might be more deserving of some sort of bailout.
Stalling just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
In a nutshell that's what the rest of my post said. Unless they can come up with some reasonably good justification for taking a breather and going through the process carefully, they'll look like they're stalling, and lose what credibility they have left.
So it did; guess I skimmed over the last paragraph a bit. We're in agreement.
Can't imagine what the ulterior motive would be, except just to be ornery. Maybe it would give the bondholders or dealers a little more time to try to bail?
cars cost about $7000 a year to own when new. Gasoline makes up $1200 of that year's cost, on average. Higher mpg than 28 mpg, which can be had with mid 90's 3.5-3.8 liter V6's in roomy cars with large trunks, doesn't save you much money.
My friend just drove a new Sonata and a new Taurus on the same 900 round mile trip. Both got 30.5 mpg. He got about 33-34 mpg with a new Elantra.
The % of the $7000 TCO that we are talking about in fuel savings beyond 28 mpg is small. Maybe the TCO ends up at $6500 if the 47 mpg Hybrid carries all else equal.
People buying Prius' to save gas as biggest reason?
The per capita income in my town is over $60k and saving $500 in gas per year is a less than 1% impact.
The only answer is buy a Foreign car?
The mindless chasing of a less than 1% quality difference so that your neighbors end up without jobs.
We can all still buy Fords?
So why should I suddenly base my car buying decision on Who my car company borrowed it's money from?
Comments
Never
Are any of the people on the Obama team successful business men, or just career politicians? They are probably fine for bringing down the axe on GM and C. I don't think they have what it takes to run a successful auto company. Obama keeps saying he wants a new and better GM. That does not sound like he wants to get anyone out of the mess. Just make a bigger one.
The people that don't like GM would say "oh they aren't working on anything, they aren't doing anything new, yada yada" and would continue to whine about paying too much in taxes and all the foreclosed houses while zipping along in their Priuses.
If GM issues a press release, the people that don't like GM would say "oh they aren't working on anything, they aren't doing anything new, yada yada" and would continue to whine about paying too much in taxes and all the foreclosed houses while zipping along in their Priuses.
Perhaps the "people who don't like GM" would like to see a car announced say, 3-6 months before availability, like most car companies, followed by an actual PRODUCT. I didn't hear much about the Fusion hybrid until it had some real reviews only a few months before availability. That's about right. Four years advance advertising - surely you can't be serious that such vaporware is a good way to do business? Or only perhaps when the emperor has no clothes?
So you are saying they need to now change the name?
An excellent idea. Such a horrible stigma with the old name. The company that failed to compete for 30 years and then picked our pockets of $billions before going under. What a great corporate image.
Wrong, they rarely cooperated with each other (even strikes as late as last year). Now that they are both on the ship that's going down they are belatedly thinking they maybe should cooperate. Something that has been obvious to a lot of us for many years.
Sounds like it's the loyal opposition that's trying to drag it out now.
Lawmakers want Obama to slow down on GM, Chrysler (KTUU)
So the question is, slow down for what? More tax dollars while they try to stay afloat?
GM borrows another $4 billion from Treasury (Reuters)
Tlong, almost overlooked you. Here's the latest:
GM, UAW compromise (Detroit Free Press)
Even financially the Volt simply doesn't make sense. Like I said, it'll take roughly 15 years to recover the cost difference vs. Insight's. So which will you choose realistically, a 25k Insight or a 40k (okay 32k after rebates) Volt? :P
Volt believers can say whatever they want, I vote with my green (the other "green", btw).
Well, Obama isn't the one who signed blank checks...he did actually say "better plan or Bankruptcy." Which turned out to be Bankruptcy it looks like. That's going in the right direction: an exit strategy. This is a good thing...it's making a turn onto the right road. We're stuck with being the DIP financiers during the BK process, but that was going to happen anyway, and probably is why Obama wanted a quick BK process rather than a drawn-out one. Not perfect, but more reasonable.
As a result of that process, he wants a new and better GM. I would think anyone who loves GM should agree, but we do see a lot of people who seem to prefer the old/current GM over a new and better (and profitable) GM. Some of them are on these very message boards and it makes me scratch my head. :shades:
And actually, a few people on the Obama team are actually successful businessmen....maybe one or two. :shades: Given the fact that people who work in Washington typically do so because they can't get a real job in private industry, this is an improvement. :P
The UAW lifestyle isn't THAT fancy. Though yeah, they are overpaid. Want to see fancy lifestyles? Some more overpaid people include Waggoner, Lutz, Fritz Henderson, and pretty much any American GM engineer involved with the G3, G5, Aveo, Aztek, Volt, the Mild Hybrid project, etc.
The problems at GM are systemic.
Personally, while I WOULD like the BK process to go as quick as possible, I can understand some wanting to take a breath and make sure it goes right, rather than leaving us with trouble a year or two down the road.
However, I'm thinking said loyal opposition has an ulterior motive, and I find myself wondering what it is. If it's just to give them more taxpayer dollars, then they're putting a gun in the mouth of their party and pulling the trigger. Not that I wouldn't put it past them, but it's a dumb move politically, and (hopefully) they haven't gotten that stupid. *thinks back to the past decade* I really REALLY hope they're not that stupid.... :sick:
So you are saying they need to now change the name?
An excellent idea. Such a horrible stigma with the old name.
Apparently.
The company that failed to compete for 30 years and
By selling 1 in 4 vehicles world wide until 2 years ago...
picked our pockets of $billions before going under.
And getting confused with the banking industry...
Even financially the Volt simply doesn't make sense. Like I said, it'll take roughly 15 years to recover the cost difference vs. Insight's. So which will you choose realistically, a 25k Insight or a 40k (okay 32k after rebates) Volt?
Riiiight, because the Prius made sense when it came out...and we know no one bought that "just to be green."
The payback on a Prius when it came out was in the decade range, and only dropped now because of the "assumed resale value," which has plummeted as gas went down again.
I really have no strong love for GM, the last GM car I owned myself was a 70s Nova (which was actually a great car at the time), but I think the arguments are not so fair and balanced in here.
All I see is the UAW members voting to take from the retirees that are without a real voice in the process. How is cutting retirement benefits a sacrifice by the working UAW members?
I'm not sure that slowing down is the answer. I think the sooner they liquidate both companies the sooner the auto industry can right itself and become viable once again. Though smaller. My guess is we will never see the sales of 2007 again. The main reason, it was built on poor lending practices. Too many of those vehicles were bought with home equity loans, where no equity exists.
Any tax dollars spent at this point should be to facilitate bankruptcy liquidation. We have to accept that GM and Chrysler ran themselves into the ground and it is not the responsibility of the tax payer to keep them afloat.
I believe that is an excellent analogy...you had previously posted some of their previous sky diving attempts such as the Cimmaron and many other "no-parachute" products! :lemon:
This is the Granddaddy of all: Producing gas guzzlers into a firming global energy market and negotiating unpayable benefits and wages in a profitable business. Perfect storm of failures, wouldn't you say? Almost forgot, add the "crying for aid" to Washington as the "Forgot to fuel the plane" before the sky diving mission to the storm surge!
Actually, this should clean out most of the garbage so I look at it as a net positive as far as the industry is concerned but a gross negative as far as the national debt is concerned.
Under the GM draft bankruptcy plan, the company would receive about $30 billion in additional federal loans, a source said, a total that would boost the government's investment in GM to nearly $45 billion.
Regards,
OW
The Prius vs. the Volt would be the same argument. That's all I'm saying. I understand the US needs to go ahead with an electric car but the point is that the current auto companies did not have the brains to invest far earlier...like continuing the EV-1 for the future.
You chose your strategy and take your lumps...the Asians LIVE fuel economy. We do not until the sky falls.
If my CR-V was produced by Chevy or Dodge or Ford, it would still be sitting in my garage.
Regards,
OW
The payback on a Prius when it came out was in the decade range, and only dropped now because of the "assumed resale value," which has plummeted as gas went down again.
The Prius was also half the price they're threatening to sell the Volt for, before any rebates. The Prius was always targeted to be a volume vehicle with a volume pricetag. The Volt, at $40k....isn't.
Wages and benefits of Chinese workers are one-tenth that of a US worker. This is one reason why GM will begin exporting Chinese made GMs to the US. As factories in the US are downsized and closed Reilly sees China becoming a significant exporter of cars.
Sales of GM cars in China accounted for 13 percent of GM global total. GM is rolling out 5 new Chevrolet models and 5 new Buick models over next 2 years in China.
Quality is not an issue since GM's Chinese plants are as good as its factories anywhere else.
When Chinese made autos from GM start increasing in the future, more UAW jobs will be at risk.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -----------------------------------
Maybe the Chinese should be bailing out GM. Wonder how soon GM engineers in US will be asked to start training Chinese engineers to take over their jobs.
Thousands of buyers paid $30k+ for their Prius. They went for over MSRP which could go as high as $30k. Even with the cuts last year you can pay close to $28k for a loaded Prius. Of course now with the downturn it is more of a buyers market. Early on it was the $3100 tax credit that fueled the buying and the dealers were trying to get as much of that as they could.
If the Volt were to materialize by some miracle, and the $7500 tax credit was usable for the buyer, I don't think the $32k figure is that awful. My guess is it will only work for a small demographic. Tax credits are not allowed to those of US stuck with AMT by the IRS. And many lower income folks do not pay $7500 in Federal Income tax. Unless they let you take the credit over several years.
I think for those that want a hybrid with an American Name plate. The Fusion or Escape is the best choice. Too many IFs with the Volt.
Lemko needs to get with the program. China has the best looking Buick on the Planet. Makes ours including the 2010 LaCrosse look sad. If GM could just fold up all their US manufacturing and sell off those assets they could probably survive.
You'll have to show me the questions and the pattern thereof same on the poll to convince me people actually know what they saying "yes" to.
We all know from polls that the order of the questions can affect people's answers. Also things like the media does where they push their opinion about something and how good or how awful it is for several days then they poll people and find the people regurgitate that opinion and the media says, "See, we had it right."
I suspect if you ask the question after questions asking if the public wants many suppliers to close (as has happened in this area) and people there lose their jobs, as well as the democrat UAW workers, and if the public wants their area's economy to drop even lower, you'd get many fewer saying they want GM or Chrysler to fail.
If you ask if people want GM to reorganize and be able to drop the UAW workers and employ new ones, you'd get a number higher than 61% in favor, in a properly arranged poll intended to be neutral. --Keith
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Osama has said many things during the campaign and since that he doesn't intend to follow up on. He's trianglulating as did Clinton, saying one thing, doing another, and having both groups of supplicants thinking he's doing as they want him to do.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Posted April 1 2009
Despite GM's insistence to the contrary, a recent poll has shown that a majority of Americans believe that the U.S. economy can still recover if GM fails. The majority was also against further assistance to Chrysler and GM and believes one or both will be out of business soon.
Rasmussen's latest poll, which was conducted on Monday and Tuesday of this week, found that 76% of Americans believe that the economy will not be inescapably damaged if GM fails, believing instead that the economy will still recover. Only 15% believed GM would take the economy down with it, while 9% were unsure. More specifically, the poll found that 74% of non-investors and 77% of investors believe that "the economy can bounce back, even if GM doesn't."
The poll also found that 62% of Americans are against any further taxpayer-backed loans to the automakers and 59% believe that Chrysler or GM going out of business in the next few years is either "somewhat likely" or "very likely." The poll surveyed 1000 voters across the country and had a margin of error of +/- 3%.
Source: The Detroit Free Press
At the end of the day, we can discuss if it is cheaper the way it happens or if it would have been more beneficial to have had GM go C11 last December where there is now 6 months wasted that could have seen a new company already emerge.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
I suppose Delphi will still be around after their reorganization has drug out for what, five years now?
But a quick bankruptcy accomplishes several things - it gets the company away from judicial oversight, normalizes relationships with suppliers and employees, and gets rid of any stigma that being in banko has these days. And a fast reorganization tells their creditors and car buyers that the company can move fast and get its act together.
Stalling just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
The loyal opposition continues to get hammered by the UAW too:
UAW leaders blaming Corker for GM plant's peril (Business Week).
If the Saturn Spring Hill plant shuts down, Coker's future ambitions will always be shadowed by his prominent position in opposing the auto bailouts. That could be a good thing, but it still provides a lot of ammo to his opponents whenever he opens his mouth to talk about jobs.
Some comments on the Chevy Volt, I still think it's only going to sell to a "niche" of American buyers. It's first year might see sales of 20,000 U.S. Volt's.
I would buy a Chinese-built 2011 e6 over a Volt and I would definitely buy a 2010 Mitsubishi i-MiEV over a 2011 Chevy Volt. One big reason? Lower cost. With the Obama rebate the i-MiEV will retail for around $$23,000 and the e6 with rebate around $21,000. And I think both will have good build quality, with the solid build quality nod definitely going to Mitsubishi.
I am getting more excited about buying us a 2010 Mitsubishi i-MiEV because not only is Ideal Mitsubishi selling Mitsu's in Sierra Vista, AZ, about 80 miles SW of us(I get my maintenance work done there) but Jim Click is selling Mitsubishi's now in Tucson proper(east 22nd St.). So now if I buy one of the first i-MiEV's I can do a quick re-charge at that dealership or the Sierra Vista one. I know I'll want to buy Mitsu's quick re-charge unit for my i-MiEV. You get an 80% re-charge in only 15 minutes! Also, we have a 220-amp service at our house, now, and we have a dryer outlet right next to our carport. So we're all set for purchase.
I love my Lancer so much and buying a car is expensive, of course, but an i-MiEV for only $23,000 would fit nicely in our budget.
I'm getting a strong urge to buy another Pomeranian, too, from a Tucson outlet. My son and I saw her yesterday, she's 9 weeks old and is an active little squirtplug. We already have two Pom's and one Chow Chow and two cats in our 3 bed, 1 1/2 bath Willcox, AZ, home, so I thought about giving the Chow to my son to take back to his rental home in Oro Valley, 12 miles north of Tucson.
Have ta get back to y'all on these developments. Once they take the puppy out and let you hold it the process of bonding begins.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Since GM is now a 1/5 of the market competitor at best, I don't expect them to come out of the BK any less than 1/6 or 1/7 of the market. We are talking 3 or 4 manufacturers bigger than GM for that to even happen.
Just keep holding your breath on the liquidation idea.
S. Korea probably wants 1/4 of the US market and so does China.
Our midwest area is now seeing the droves of teachers, firemen, and police getting laid off as the tax base shrinks. Maybe Marysville or Georgetown will spread the wealth around.
I still didn't see the questions and the order in which they are asked on that polling.
Many of the people have an attitude of "get back at GM" for something in the past. They don't care about the many people in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, and other states that may be hurt further by the cutbacks. There is a poetic justice in that the folks tooling around in their foreign cars are going to help pay to restart GM and C just as they restarted and will continue to pay for the financials. Many of the older folk will find that their SS and free medicare and medicaid will be cut. Younger folks will find it's gone. Maybe buying more US made would have kept income going to the SS and other aid programs. But I know Obama isn't going to cut the welfare type programs. Those people vote and in this area they soundly went for Obama. Even the lady who ordered and allowed "the Ohio plumber's" state records was originally running the entitlements in Montgomery Cty.
An example to think about when people gripe about what unions have gained. A friend had a hospital error and a 4 day stay has now been 35 days, with 10-12 in intensive care and all but 4 in transition intensive care. His wife worked 30 hours at a major company in Kentucky (right-to-work) 3 days per week. After 2 weeks when the husband nearly had died, she was told by the company to apply for the Fed Family leave. When she did, she was told she wasn't on the employment list, so they couldn't help her. The company had already dismissed her because she was going to be using the Fed Leave. Of course, the workers in the plant, but as a financial officer person she is not in the union. I suggested she talk to the union leaders as well as her own attorney. Although she's not in the union, they may have interest in helping.
So it's nice to kvetch about the benefits that in some cases came from unions. But when the lack thereof applies to you or someone you know, it's a little different. Did I mention that they have 3 adopted kids. Now noone's working.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Right, and no one else bought it either right? Because there is no emotion involved in buying a car, its all about the most practical cheapest way to get from point A to point B...
The Prius vs. the Volt would be the same argument. That's all I'm saying.
But its not the same argument, people aren't buying a Prius to save money. People are buying it because it's "Green." And you know what, Gd bless them for it. If that is how they feel they are helping the environment driving around in an underpowered floaty penalty box, thats awesome.
The payback on a Prius when it came out was in the decade range, and only dropped now because of the "assumed resale value," which has plummeted as gas went down again.
The Prius was also half the price they're threatening to sell the Volt for, before any rebates. The Prius was always targeted to be a volume vehicle with a volume pricetag. The Volt, at $40k....isn't.
The Prius was priced at the max someone would pay for an underpowered sub-compact. The Volt is closer to the Tesla than the Prius - its a BEV with an on-board generator.
Remember, you like dealing with facts. Most did buy Prius because of financial rather than "green". That's why sales peaked during the previous energy price spike.
Unlike classic technology “early adopters,” people who purchased Prius automobiles did not feel that they paid a premium for the privilege of owning an environmentally friendly car. While the environmental benefits were a major consideration for them, they also saw clear financial benefits from their purchase, says a new study, Why People Really Buy Hybrids, by Topline Strategy Group.
I'll try to help you stay on track as the cost is EXACTLY what is top priority in each Hybrid segment vs. the ICE equivalent. When cost parity is reached, Hybrid sales will exceed the oil burners.
Plug-in is going to take even longer to make a great financial case unless we get back to >$5/gal. gas. The point is, past attempts by Detroit regarding fuel efficiency were feeble at best and shows they were asleep at the wheel as the Asians spanked their pants (and market share) off!
Just trying to keep it real.
Regards,
OW
The Prius and the Insight will rule for the foreseeable future until the skeleton of Detroit morphs into a strong technology-based auto industry here in the USA.
At the end of the day, the Volt would have NEVER saved GM. Another pie in the sky advertisement to promote a failed brand.
Nice try.
Regards,
OW
There is no emotion such as desire with most of the vehicles on the market now, let alone a Highlander. If the Hybrid saves you pulling out of the Dealer on day one, it leads sales. Not going to happen and parity after 10 years will not work in this economy. Prius and Insight win on that score.
Wherever you been?? It's the point A -B thing these days. As the big oil guys continue to rule the landscape, all emotion is removed unless you could care less about spending more on gas then your rent. There is plenty of emotion in the performance/luxury segment if that's what floats your boat.
Regards,
OW
That's the most accurate and concise encapsulation of this situation I have yet seen. Hear hear!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
By selling 1 in 4 vehicles world wide until 2 years ago...
Yeah, selling at wholesale prices and wholesale quality, don't forget the details.
And getting confused with the banking industry...
Nope. They deserve to be placed in the same pits of hell. What's so confusing about it?
Ford seems to have totally righted itself. The new Ford Fusion Hybrid and it's 81.5mpg run the other day is absolutely incredible and got my attention. I have put the Ford Fusion Hybrid in third place on my "green" car list.
1) 2010 Mitsubishi i-MiEV
2) 2011 BYD e6
3) 2011 Ford Fusion Hybrid
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The payback on a Prius when it came out was in the decade range, and only dropped now because of the "assumed resale value," which has plummeted as gas went down again.
Of course I'm right. :P
Prius owners buy them just to be green, there's no financial purposes there, right? I'd say it's true for original Prius, but at roughly 25k the roomy 2nd gen and current model are just as practical as they are green . And I don't make my calculations based on resale value, in fact I never put them into consideration at all.
Remember this one point carefully: at least a Prius doesn't cost almost $40k.
What makes Volt any different than a Prius? It's projected to be just as poor performing, plus remember: only 40 miles range on battery alone.
Tesla is a whole other animal, which I agree with OW will leave Volt in the dust. Volt will never be anywhere near a Tesla in any aspect, try making a more sensible comparison.
I'm not saying electric vehicle is a bad idea, but no matter how good an idea is, it's totally useless without enough R&D, which is exactly what's happening with Volt.
You want us to check the facts, sure, but be fair and do the same.
P.S: I don't see a single true GM hater here. A true GM religious follower? Yes I do see one, or more.
The $7500 is not JUST for the Volt. It is for ANY car using a 16kw battery set. The Volt qualifies under that category, as does the Tesla, IIRC.
BTW, a PHEV Prius would qua;lify as well.
Remember, you like dealing with facts. Most did buy Prius because of financial rather than "green". That's why sales peaked during the previous energy price spike.
Riiigiht, and what is payoff for a Prius...back into that whole decade thing again. Gas prices went through the roof (in 2008, not 2001 when it was introduced) and suddenly they were hot. You know what, so was the Cobalt and Focus. Now gas prices dropped, inventory new and used is piled up...now what is breakeven?
Unlike classic technology “early adopters,” people who purchased Prius automobiles did not feel that they paid a premium for the privilege of owning an environmentally friendly car. While the environmental benefits were a major consideration for them, they also saw clear financial benefits from their purchase, says a new study, Why People Really Buy Hybrids, by Topline Strategy Group.
People believe what they want to believe and will spin things accordingly. You think GM is the root of all evil and nothing they do will change your mind; thats fine. People think they are "saving money" by paying $2500 extra for a car can believe what they want as well. All of the data I've seen said they did it to either 1. be green, or 2. end reliance on foreign oil.
I'll try to help you stay on track as the cost is EXACTLY what is top priority in each Hybrid segment vs. the ICE equivalent. When cost parity is reached, Hybrid sales will exceed the oil burners.
Actually, the topic is GM news, new models and market share. I am still failing to see your point here...what you are saying is that when hybrid drivetrains are free relative to existing technology, they will be more popular? :confuse:
Hmm, something I have to pay extra for, vs something that is free...which one do I want....
Riiight, so since you are so caught up on cost, how much is that Tesla right now...oh yeah $109,000. That is 5 zeros. So for 30% of that I can get a BEV with an onboard generator so I don't need a second vehicle to go on trips? Yeah thats terrible. Shoot me now.
At the end of the day, the Volt would have NEVER saved GM. Another pie in the sky advertisement to promote a failed brand.
That is your argument, not mine. This whole one vehicle saving a company thing is kind of silly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPCKaA2Wr0o
or see link on WCSX website
Wherever you been?? It's the point A -B thing these days. As the big oil guys continue to rule the landscape, all emotion is removed unless you could care less about spending more on gas then your rent. There is plenty of emotion in the performance/luxury segment if that's what floats your boat.
The Insight isn't even a real Hybrid. It is always using its ICE.
As far as A-B, I think that sounds like a comment from someone who is not in that market anyway. While I concur that I couldn't imagine anyone getting excited about a Camry (or a Lexus knock off, for that matter), the Fusion Sport, Mazdaspeed3, VW Jetta (and TDI) all seem to evoke emotion without being "luxury."
Just because I can't afford a BMW right this second doesn't mean my automotive life has to suck.
Mazda6 0-60: 6.5 seconds (edmunds- random $25k car)
Prius 0-60: 11 seconds
And I don't make my calculations based on resale value, in fact I never put them into consideration at all.
And the environment thanks you. I guess if you live in LA and drive 20k a year, you made a good financial decision...and you get to use the carpool lane. If you live in a place where gas is still in the $2 range and you see speeds above 30 on the highway, eh, whatever helps you sleep at night.
Remember this one point carefully: at least a Prius doesn't cost almost $40k.
Hmm a Lexus HS250 probably does...pricing hasn't been release yet...nor has an official price for the Volt.
The first does not necessarily follow the second...and while said suppliers must take some responsibility (who's bright idea was it to tie their fortunes so closely to one or two large customers? Without thinking about what happens if one of both of them either go away or simply take their business somewhere else?) it can be argued that said suppliers have less direct fault regarding their situation, and might be more deserving of some sort of bailout.
In a nutshell that's what the rest of my post said. Unless they can come up with some reasonably good justification for taking a breather and going through the process carefully, they'll look like they're stalling, and lose what credibility they have left.
Can't imagine what the ulterior motive would be, except just to be ornery. Maybe it would give the bondholders or dealers a little more time to try to bail?
Gasoline makes up $1200 of that year's cost, on average.
Higher mpg than 28 mpg, which can be had with mid 90's 3.5-3.8 liter V6's in roomy cars with large trunks, doesn't save you much money.
My friend just drove a new Sonata and a new Taurus on the same 900 round mile trip. Both got 30.5 mpg.
He got about 33-34 mpg with a new Elantra.
The % of the $7000 TCO that we are talking about in fuel savings beyond 28 mpg is small. Maybe the TCO ends up at $6500 if the 47 mpg Hybrid carries all else equal.
People buying Prius' to save gas as biggest reason?
The per capita income in my town is over $60k and saving $500 in gas per year is a less than 1% impact.
The only answer is buy a Foreign car?
The mindless chasing of a less than 1% quality difference so that your neighbors end up without jobs.
We can all still buy Fords?
So why should I suddenly base my car buying decision on Who my car company borrowed it's money from?