I agree with you that the more people or the longer the test the better picture we get. Our problem here is we do not even have an EPA test of the BMW 335D yet. Only one poster, Jose has owned the vehicle. That makes his a good place to start. We know he drives fast and what to expect of the 335D driving aggressively. Now if you could get your hands on one and give it a hypermilers test we would have two points of reference and a good idea what the rest of us can expect from the car. Personally I am not interested in that car just that engine in the X5 would be more my cup of tea.
What, exactly, does any of that have to do with their mileage testing results? Nothing! This is a question of running a car through a mileage test protocol to find what mileage it gives. You just need to be methodical and they are good at that.
Why do you think you will suffer worse mileage? I have run multiple tanks of premium and multiple tanks of regular on my work commute and there is no measureable mileage difference.
Wrong poster. I am into diesel. I do put premium in my wife's LS400 and it pains me to pay the extra. I will NEVER EVER AGAIN buy a vehicle that requires premium gas. It is doubtful that I would buy another POC gas car at all. They are SO wasteful of our precious fossil fuel.
People, pay attention. The mileage numbers we have for the US-spec 335D do not come from EPA, they come from BMW. They are numbers that BMW leaked/gave to the press and that's where I saw them (buff books). Quit beating on EPA for low numbers when it is, in fact, BMW that is the source of the numbers.
As I showed in the earlier post, EPA numbers for the MB E320 BluTec closely match those reported by a reliable independent test lab...that run by Consumer Reports. You want to beat on the EPA, go for it, but beat on them for something they actually did.
Sheeesh!
My opinion is that the problem with the 335D as a mileage machine is going to be that BMW chose to put their most powerful diesel, of several they have, in the E90 for Us consumption, for their own reasons. That always results in more power and worse mileage. Blame BMW, not the EPA.
Wow! And exactly why are reports from media that do controlled testing "worthless". I would guess, then, your view on any car is also "worthless" as you have far less experience testing cars than any magazine staff would have. Truly remarkable statement you made. As for CR, well actually, you are a bit out of touch about that bias stuff. They test and like a lot of enthusiast cars (Sti, Corvette, Boxster, Z, MazdaSpeed 3, and so on). They do mostly test vanilla sedans and such, but then, that is what most folks buy.
Actually, CR being close to EPA _might_ indeed be an inidication of bias. Afaik, CR did not allow for fuel return in its calculations before with the Jeep Liberty CRD, which of course did/would lower mileage reported rather signifigantly. No idea if they did that ooopsie in this case as well tho. But given that info, it is as likely that both tests are off, as it is they are both right.
The bottom line is because of current market conditions, diesel is less of a draw from an economy standpoint and return for the premium prices for both the car AND the fuel in the US. Period.
Diesel just dropped 30 cents here in CA today. Maybe it will drop below RUG just in time for them to hit our shores. The automakers may have our price fluctuations down and know when to hit the market.
What part of San Diego? My neighbor here in Alpine is the one that told me he just paid 30 less for diesel. I probably will not drive at all today. It is supposed to be 106 degrees today. It hit 103 yesterday.
Are you thinking about getting one of the 335Ds when they go on sale here?
In Europe, 90 percent of BMW X5 customers and more than 60 percent of 3-Series customers order their Bimmers with diesel engines. Now, drivers in all 50 U.S. states will have the same option starting later this year with the debut of the '09 335d sedan and '09 X5 xDrive35d all-wheel-drive SUV. Both will come equipped with a 3.0L inline-six diesel engine with twin variable turbos that crank out 425 lb-ft of torque. BMW says the X5 diesel has been clocked at 7.2 seconds going from 0-62 mph and gets up to 25 mpg on the highway, while the 335d races to 62 mph in only 6.2 seconds and sips diesel at just 33 mpg.
The diesel X5 gets 25% better mileage than the V8 X5 with more torque. It nearly matches the V8 0-60 and beats the 6 cylinder gas version every which way. If diesel hangs in there at a higher price I may get a good deal on one. No way I would buy the gas version that requires Premium unleaded.
I personally would rather have 0-60 in 8.2 seconds and get 40 MPG out on the highway. Car magazines are no small part of perpetrating the image that Americans all want fast cars from 0-60 MPH. I outgrew that phase in the early 1960s after about 6 speeding tickets. I like a car that handles well. BMW excels in that department. The X5 may be the best of the best roadhandling SUVs. I would prefer it over the 335D. Just more my style. The neighbors think you are snooty if you are driving a BMW car. SUVs are much more common and not as in your face.
It's more about the driving experience than the fuel economy advantage. I'm really after the sweet, smooth, high-winding characteristics of the 6-cyl gas engine with the BMW. Diesels are torquey -- an easy, relaxed drive with a manual trans. Also, the usable power band is narrower and flat -- no joy in or point to winding them up. I'm getting 27.3 overall with my 06 325i.
0-60 in 8.2 and 40 mpg highway is probably not that hard to do if you stick to 65 mph. My E46 330i 6-sp does 35+ mpg highway at 65...as did a huge Chevy Monte Carlo I once rented...with a 3+ liter pushrod V6 in it...no kidding. Our 1983 Mazda 626 2 liter 5-door did 41 mpg highway at 65.
Diesel characteristics are different from a free-revving gas engine, no doubt. Both can be fun, just different kinds of fun. I happen to like low end grunt better, but revving up the engine in my E46 is a blast, too, just don't do it very often.
If you are averaging 27.3 in the 325i, you must be pretty much biased to highway use. I get 20 mpg non-congested city/suburban in my E46 330i...way short of 27.
Speaking only for myself, were I to consider purchasing a diesel car in America in 2008 (and I do like BMW diesels from marine experience), I would probably take BMWs city + hwy posted mileages, divide by 2, and figure that will be my "real world, most of the time, 12 month" average MPG.
Then I would deduct 10 to 15% off that MPG so as to allow for the 10-15% higher diesel fuel prices. This would give me the equivalent MPG of a similar gas car.
So if say the numbers (just guessing for argument's sake here) were 23/31, that would be 54/2 or 27 mpg average, less 10% more or less for the diesel fuel penalty price, giving me 24 mpg.
In other words, a 24 mpg gas car would work out to the same fuel costs per year as the diesel posting a 23/31 mpg on the window sticker.
As for other costs, some claim that a diesel has "lower" maintenance costs, but I feel it's more like "different" maintenance costs.
As for the claim that diesel engines are longer-lived, I think that is actually quite true and is worth considering as a factor if you are the type who keeps a car a long time.
As for the whole biodiesel thing, I am not personally going to go around retrieving used peanut oil from Chinese restaurants, so forget that. I don't have the time. As for using pump B100, that depends on BMWs attitude about it.
VW says fine, Mercedes doesn't like you to use it.
So for a 335i ICE, 18/28 gives you 23 mpg average. Considering the additional cost of the diesel, the intended purpose seems moot unless price difference changes considerably.
The equivalent gas car would be a base model 528i manual trans and it would average out to about 22.5 mpg, that's right.
So we have about a solid 10 mpg advantage for the 325d (deducting the 15% for the extra cost of diesel and presuming the 325d gets about 28/47, for a 37mpg average minus the 15%).
Or, over 12,500 miles, about $900 a year in savings at $5 a gallon price point. At $6 a gallon that will go up to about $1,100 a year.
If you are averaging 27.3 in the 325i, you must be pretty much biased to highway use. I get 20 mpg non-congested city/suburban in my E46 330i...way short of 27
You're right -- about 40% suburban, 60% highway.
One thing I have noticed with diesels is that at higher highway speeds mileage can drop quite precipitously. What is quite impressive with the smaller ones I've driven (Seat Toledo, Renault Clio) is the top gear performance around 75 to 85.
Direct from BMW, they are here in CA this fall. I will finally have a choice. Only took 10 years of patiently waiting.
Clearly, this level of technology is predestined for the U.S. market, not only in terms of power and efficiency, but for its potential to help reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Which is why, in Fall 2008, we'll introduce two BMW Advanced Diesel with BluePerformance vehicles in the U.S. - the 335d and X5 xDrive35d. In addition to being better for the environment, these diesel engines also have increased torque. This enhanced concept for minimum exhaust gas emissions has been developed to meet the strict emissions standards in effect in California and other states. BMW's BluePerformance technology filters and actually cleans the exhaust before it leaves the vehicle, making this generation of Diesel engines the cleanest BMW has ever produced. With reduced emissions from comparable gasoline vehicles, and near-elimination of both smoke and NOx emissions, BMW Advanced Diesels will be every bit as clean as CARB-legal gasoline engines when they are introduced in the US in 2008.
The numbers I read ( on another site ) for the 335d were: 23 \ 33 The EPA numbers fo a 2008 335i w/A6 trans ( only way the 335d will be sold here, at least initially): 17 \ 26
That would mean + 6 MPG city and + 7 MPG highway. . . And + “a bunch of TQ”. - Ray Interested to see what ‘real world’ numbers are reported . . .
I just got back from Germany/Austria. There are loads of 1-Series small (sub 2-liter) diesel hatchbacks there. Way more to be seen than any other BMW model.
I'll believe BMW is serious about diesels in the US when they start importing the 1-Series hatchback diesel and the more fuel-efficient 3-series diesel models. The 335d is not a very impressive mileage machine with diesel running some 20% above gas in cost.
I am no CO2 threat alarmist AlGorista, but I do find the BMW advertising that you quote repugnant since the specifically choose not to import their most efficient sedans into the US. And please don't tell me about the Mini. They somehow manage to sell the much more economical BMW models and the (rather silly) Mini in Europe.
By my calculations, the 335d MPG ( if the EPA ratings are actually as stated above ) is over 35% higher \ better City and almost 27% higher Highway than the otherwise equivalent 335i.
And diesel prices here ( near Atlanta ) are more like 10% higher than premium = $4.34 premium & $4.80 diesel.
The purely economic equation will depend largely on the price difference of the diesel motor – and we probably will not know that for a while, yet.
I'll believe BMW is serious about diesels in the US when they start importing the 1-Series hatchback diesel and the more fuel-efficient 3-series diesel models.
I don't believe the problem lies with BMW. They would like to sell whatever they can. It is our regulations that are much stiffer than the EU. The small diesels would need a lot of expensive equipment to meet the EPA & CARB emissions requirement. I don't think there is any real desire in Washington or Sacramento to get fuel saving vehicles on the road. For example CARB allowed VW to sell the Touareg with the V10 diesel that is not in compliance. Yet they blocked the much more fuel efficient V6 diesel in the same vehicle. Does that sound like a state interested in having US use less fossil fuel?
Those very small BMW diesel engines may not be able to be brought into compliance without extensive modification. That would probably kill much of the mileage difference. I am just thankful for a little gain with the diesel BMW will be offering. If they are popular I imagine you will see more in the future.
If VW can sell their little 2 liter Diesel (50 state legal) in the Jetta/Rabbit for low 20's (as they will this summer), what is stopping the engineering geniuses at BMW?
Recall that BMW has always had far more econimical models for sale in Europe in each Series (and I mean gas and Diesel) for many years that they have chose NOT to import into the US. You look at the engine models that sell well in Europe and they are NOT the BMW models that BMW chose to import here (and they still don't). It is this premium image/high profit thing the BMW marketing types are hooked on. It is not US regulations. The few times recently that they dipped their toes into selling an efficient/affordable model it was cars like the lame 318 hatchback that was expensive for what it was and purposely crippled to not steal sales from pricier models...so it sold poorly.
There is zero excuse for them not selling the 1-series diesel (or gas) hatch in the US except for their fear of image clash. Instead they sell the silly 1-series coupe which people would not even buy in Europe because it is silly. (Say one non-hatch 1-Series in two weeks Germany - it was a convertible.) Our local BMW dealer here says that the 1-Series is a tough sell as it is priced very little below 3-Series, a better car. Maybe Americans are not as dumb as BMW thought?
The 1 series is essentially sold out for 2008. They will easily move all 10k units they planned to sell here. For comparison sake, that's twice as many 1ers as Audi will sell TTs this year. Both are brand new to the USA. Both are entry level sport coupes. Both are aimed at the exact same niche. Only one is sales smash. The other...well it's typical Audi in terms of sell-through.
Oh and feature for feature, dollar for dollar, the 1 series is a far better deal than its main competition the TT.
No need to sell a diesel 1 when the current 1 is selling so well.
I'm seeing diesel regularly at $5.50 a gallon now in the SF Bay Area. So while shopping for regular 87 octane gasoline can get you as low as $4.45, the more limited diesel stations are offering the very unattractive notion of paying $1.05 more per gallon to drive a diesel.
This is absurd but it's going to kill diesel sales in California if this keeps up. That's about a 25% premium for diesel fuel. CAL is a huge BMW market and a huge car market.
In So CA the difference is about 11% today as gas prices have dropped 10 cents and diesel has not. I don't think the price will make a lot of difference with the person that wants a high end diesel SUV. I would not consider the BMW gasser X5 I am excited to try the X5 35D when they arrive. Then I will choose between the ML320 CDI and the X5 35D. The gas versions are not even in the running. I would just keep this gas hog Sequoia if I could not upgrade to diesel. The ML320 CDI is documented at 32 MPG on the highway and 25.6 MPG combined on a cross country trip. Diesel would have to be near double gas to discount that difference. Plus the BMW gassers are all Premium making the difference even less. The difference today is only 8%. I am hoping you are right. I don't think you will be.
That's probably true, that the diesel surcharge or whatever you want to call it, will matter LESS with luxury cars and SUVs.
However, I don't see the 25% gap as HELPING any diesel market.
You have to remember---the diesel passenger car market in America has NEVER been substantial. There's a lot of historical resistance to diesel cars in America.
So it's a real good thing that quality diesel products from BMW and MB will be leading the charge for 2008. One more passenger car diesel "calamity" in America and it's going to be hell trying to sell them here IMO. I'd much rather see BMW or MB doing this than VW or the domestics.
The price of diesel will be a turn off to buyers because it will eliminate some of the savings from the improved fuel economy. However, you will have the satisfaction of using less fuel and it will be very nice to have the extended driving range so you can refill less often. There are less stations that sell diesel, but they are not that incredibly rare. Once you know where they are near your home and work, it isn't an issue.
shifty, that' still only a 20% premium. Around SD the difference is about 5-6% between premium and diesel. Nobody with any sense uses regular gas in a BMW. So let's be fair and compare premium to diesel. In that regard, a 10 or even 15% jump to diesel pales next to a 30% increase in economy.
@nopcbs I just got back from Germany/Austria. There are loads of 1-Series small (sub 2-liter) diesel hatchbacks there. Way more to be seen than any other BMW model.
There is no sub-2L-1-Series diesel. 118d, 120d, 123d are all 2.0L. The 3-series still sells better than the 1-series (8687 3ers in April), though 1-Series sales are up big time in Germany (8567 1ers in April) - if you compare April 2008 to April 2007, they sold 132% more 1ers than last year.
I just got a new, black 118d last week. It's fantastic. With a light right foot, 50 mpg is absolutely possible.
...the misleading BMW model naming (118D) threw me off.
I am jealous of your ability to buy the 118d. That's the model I mostly saw. Since the 3-series comes in Diesel flavor in Europe, I can see how the series still out-sells the 1-Series. The only real issue with the 1-Series hatch is that the RWD powertrain makes ot a bit inefficient in stace utilization vs. other small hatches.
You have to remember---the diesel passenger car market in America has NEVER been substantial. There's a lot of historical resistance to diesel cars in America.
It was not substantial in the EU until the modern diesel engine came along. They were sought after here in the USA, in the late 1970s to try and save money on fuel. The supply limited the sale of diesel VWs more than the market. I for one was not able to wait a year to get a diesel Dasher or Rabbit. I could not afford a Mercedes Diesel at the time. The GM diesels were a joke from the start.
If you go out and drive the X5 35D compared to the V6 gasser on the highway I am guessing it will be night and day superiority for the diesel. Then when you get to the station with nearly twice the driving range it will be clear why the Europeans that have a choice go for the diesel versions. Ignorance on the part of Americans is no excuse.
I see your diesel as of yesterday is only 9% higher than Premium, making the BMW diesels an easy decision.
"Instead they sell the silly 1-series coupe which people would not even buy in Europe because it is silly. Our local BMW dealer here says that the 1-Series is a tough sell as it is priced very little below 3-Series, a better car. " The 1 series is sold out for 2008. May be your local BMW dealer want to rape customers and sell for MSRP + 5K? 135i is perfect car, it has true BMW spirit. Who needs ugly hatchback with weak engines?
Nope, diesel fuel is $5.53 a gallon right outside my door (well, down the block). Maybe not typical across California, I don't know. I'll snoop around and record some prices here in northern CAL for you.
The diesel passenger car market in America has always been negligible, peaking at about 6% many years ago (as compared to Europe with something like 40% or more at the present time.)
America has challenges for diesel that Europe doesn't have, such as higher Nox requirements (meaning particulate filters and other bolt-on technologies), as well as considerably higher diesel fuel prices, and formidable American ambivalence about diesel automobiles.
it's probably good that Americans get exposed to more luxury diesel cars right now instead of something from China or Korea or the rather spotty reliability of VW products.
And don't expect GM to bring diesels to the U.S. Lutz sees the diesel advantage deteriorating with the higher cost of the engine itself and the high cost of diesel fuel.
given GM's position, I think Lutz is correct. There's not enough of an American diesel market, now or in the future, to justify GM making a big or expensive move in the diesel direction. For the Germans, any diesel sales in America will probably be at the expense of the domestics, not cannibalizing their own sales. GM's reputation for diesel passenger cars is ruined forever anyway, until every last person who bought one in the 1980s is dead. Volvo diesels were awful, VW TDIs are great little cars but unfortunately built in a VW factory, and the Japanese diesel tech is largely unknown to Americans.
So the Germans are in the catbird seat for diesel sales, small as they may be in the future. Market share is market share, no matter how you get it, seems to me.
In a classic example of bad timing, BMW NA chose to introduce the 524td in 1985. At one of the press intros a BMW exec started it off by saying, "BMW would like to thank General Motors for single-handedly destroying the market for diesel cars in North America."
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
GM deserves credit for trying, but the V-8-6-4 was the Titanic of engine programs. The cars jerked, bucked, stalled, made rude noises and generally misbehaved until wild-eyed owners took the cars to have the system disconnected. For some it was the last time they ever saw the inside of a Cadillac dealership.
GM's reputation for diesel passenger cars is ruined forever anyway, until every last person who bought one in the 1980s is dead.
Given that they were mostly Cadillac Fleetwoods and Oldsmobiles, and given those brands average age of purchasers, they all may very well be dead by now.
My Uncle had one of the Olds diesels. After that a Cadillac. Must not have turned him off. He was a Lincoln man before the Oldsmobile. He is gone now so that is one less to worry about. If GM or Ford would put a 6 cylinder diesel in their Tahoe or Explorer size SUV I would consider them. I just think they will drag into the picture late as always.
RIght now my choices are the X5 and ML diesels from Germany. Both built in the USA. Or at least assembled here.
You mean if Mercedes or BMW put a 6 cyl. diesel in the Tahoe or Explorer you would consider one. Don't make that mistake your Uncle did! If it's a US Diesel, pass.
America makes GREAT diesels as long as they are the size of a locomotive and you need them to tear buildings down or park aircraft carriers or light up oil rigs.
Comments
As I showed in the earlier post, EPA numbers for the MB E320 BluTec closely match those reported by a reliable independent test lab...that run by Consumer Reports. You want to beat on the EPA, go for it, but beat on them for something they actually did.
Sheeesh!
My opinion is that the problem with the 335D as a mileage machine is going to be that BMW chose to put their most powerful diesel, of several they have, in the E90 for Us consumption, for their own reasons. That always results in more power and worse mileage. Blame BMW, not the EPA.
As for CR, well actually, you are a bit out of touch about that bias stuff. They test and like a lot of enthusiast cars (Sti, Corvette, Boxster, Z, MazdaSpeed 3, and so on). They do mostly test vanilla sedans and such, but then, that is what most folks buy.
Still makes sense in EU.
Regards,
OW
As for the CR thing - I don't believe a word of any review about any car. CR, Edmunds, MT, Top Gear, etc, etc are entertainment. That's it.
Are you thinking about getting one of the 335Ds when they go on sale here?
We need the price of the car to determine if the 335d makes sense or not.
Regards,
OW
I would expect the diesel to be about a grand more as is the E320 CDI. I assume that is the only competition.
23 MPG 335i vs. 26 MPG 335d is the formula I used for 36,000 at $5 per gallon cost.
We will see.
Regards,
OW
The diesel X5 gets 25% better mileage than the V8 X5 with more torque. It nearly matches the V8 0-60 and beats the 6 cylinder gas version every which way. If diesel hangs in there at a higher price I may get a good deal on one. No way I would buy the gas version that requires Premium unleaded.
Yes but not at the same time!
I personally would rather have 0-60 in 8.2 seconds and get 40 MPG out on the highway. Car magazines are no small part of perpetrating the image that Americans all want fast cars from 0-60 MPH. I outgrew that phase in the early 1960s after about 6 speeding tickets. I like a car that handles well. BMW excels in that department. The X5 may be the best of the best roadhandling SUVs. I would prefer it over the 335D. Just more my style. The neighbors think you are snooty if you are driving a BMW car. SUVs are much more common and not as in your face.
Diesel characteristics are different from a free-revving gas engine, no doubt. Both can be fun, just different kinds of fun. I happen to like low end grunt better, but revving up the engine in my E46 is a blast, too, just don't do it very often.
If you are averaging 27.3 in the 325i, you must be pretty much biased to highway use. I get 20 mpg non-congested city/suburban in my E46 330i...way short of 27.
Then I would deduct 10 to 15% off that MPG so as to allow for the 10-15% higher diesel fuel prices. This would give me the equivalent MPG of a similar gas car.
So if say the numbers (just guessing for argument's sake here) were 23/31, that would be 54/2 or 27 mpg average, less 10% more or less for the diesel fuel penalty price, giving me 24 mpg.
In other words, a 24 mpg gas car would work out to the same fuel costs per year as the diesel posting a 23/31 mpg on the window sticker.
As for other costs, some claim that a diesel has "lower" maintenance costs, but I feel it's more like "different" maintenance costs.
As for the claim that diesel engines are longer-lived, I think that is actually quite true and is worth considering as a factor if you are the type who keeps a car a long time.
As for the whole biodiesel thing, I am not personally going to go around retrieving used peanut oil from Chinese restaurants, so forget that. I don't have the time. As for using pump B100, that depends on BMWs attitude about it.
VW says fine, Mercedes doesn't like you to use it.
Visiting Host
Regards,
OW
So we have about a solid 10 mpg advantage for the 325d (deducting the 15% for the extra cost of diesel and presuming the 325d gets about 28/47, for a 37mpg average minus the 15%).
Or, over 12,500 miles, about $900 a year in savings at $5 a gallon price point. At $6 a gallon that will go up to about $1,100 a year.
Am I missing something here?
Regards,
OW
You're right -- about 40% suburban, 60% highway.
One thing I have noticed with diesels is that at higher highway speeds mileage can drop quite precipitously. What is quite impressive with the smaller ones I've driven (Seat Toledo, Renault Clio) is the top gear performance around 75 to 85.
Clearly, this level of technology is predestined for the U.S. market, not only in terms of power and efficiency, but for its potential to help reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Which is why, in Fall 2008, we'll introduce two BMW Advanced Diesel with BluePerformance vehicles in the U.S. - the 335d and X5 xDrive35d. In addition to being better for the environment, these diesel engines also have increased torque. This enhanced concept for minimum exhaust gas emissions has been developed to meet the strict emissions standards in effect in California and other states. BMW's BluePerformance technology filters and actually cleans the exhaust before it leaves the vehicle, making this generation of Diesel engines the cleanest BMW has ever produced. With reduced emissions from comparable gasoline vehicles, and near-elimination of both smoke and NOx emissions, BMW Advanced Diesels will be every bit as clean as CARB-legal gasoline engines when they are introduced in the US in 2008.
23 \ 33
The EPA numbers fo a 2008 335i w/A6 trans ( only way the 335d will be sold here, at least initially):
17 \ 26
That would mean + 6 MPG city
and + 7 MPG highway. . .
And + “a bunch of TQ”.
- Ray
Interested to see what ‘real world’ numbers are reported . . .
I'll believe BMW is serious about diesels in the US when they start importing the 1-Series hatchback diesel and the more fuel-efficient 3-series diesel models. The 335d is not a very impressive mileage machine with diesel running some 20% above gas in cost.
I am no CO2 threat alarmist AlGorista, but I do find the BMW advertising that you quote repugnant since the specifically choose not to import their most efficient sedans into the US. And please don't tell me about the Mini. They somehow manage to sell the much more economical BMW models and the (rather silly) Mini in Europe.
And diesel prices here ( near Atlanta ) are more like 10% higher than premium = $4.34 premium & $4.80 diesel.
The purely economic equation will depend largely on the price difference of the diesel motor – and we probably will not know that for a while, yet.
- Ray
Planning to drive one, anyway . . .
I don't believe the problem lies with BMW. They would like to sell whatever they can. It is our regulations that are much stiffer than the EU. The small diesels would need a lot of expensive equipment to meet the EPA & CARB emissions requirement. I don't think there is any real desire in Washington or Sacramento to get fuel saving vehicles on the road. For example CARB allowed VW to sell the Touareg with the V10 diesel that is not in compliance. Yet they blocked the much more fuel efficient V6 diesel in the same vehicle. Does that sound like a state interested in having US use less fossil fuel?
Those very small BMW diesel engines may not be able to be brought into compliance without extensive modification. That would probably kill much of the mileage difference. I am just thankful for a little gain with the diesel BMW will be offering. If they are popular I imagine you will see more in the future.
Recall that BMW has always had far more econimical models for sale in Europe in each Series (and I mean gas and Diesel) for many years that they have chose NOT to import into the US. You look at the engine models that sell well in Europe and they are NOT the BMW models that BMW chose to import here (and they still don't). It is this premium image/high profit thing the BMW marketing types are hooked on. It is not US regulations. The few times recently that they dipped their toes into selling an efficient/affordable model it was cars like the lame 318 hatchback that was expensive for what it was and purposely crippled to not steal sales from pricier models...so it sold poorly.
There is zero excuse for them not selling the 1-series diesel (or gas) hatch in the US except for their fear of image clash. Instead they sell the silly 1-series coupe which people would not even buy in Europe because it is silly. (Say one non-hatch 1-Series in two weeks Germany - it was a convertible.) Our local BMW dealer here says that the 1-Series is a tough sell as it is priced very little below 3-Series, a better car. Maybe Americans are not as dumb as BMW thought?
Oh and feature for feature, dollar for dollar, the 1 series is a far better deal than its main competition the TT.
No need to sell a diesel 1 when the current 1 is selling so well.
This is absurd but it's going to kill diesel sales in California if this keeps up. That's about a 25% premium for diesel fuel. CAL is a huge BMW market and a huge car market.
However, I don't see the 25% gap as HELPING any diesel market.
You have to remember---the diesel passenger car market in America has NEVER been substantial. There's a lot of historical resistance to diesel cars in America.
So it's a real good thing that quality diesel products from BMW and MB will be leading the charge for 2008. One more passenger car diesel "calamity" in America and it's going to be hell trying to sell them here IMO. I'd much rather see BMW or MB doing this than VW or the domestics.
However, you will have the satisfaction of using less fuel and it will be very nice to have the extended driving range so you can refill less often.
There are less stations that sell diesel, but they are not that incredibly rare. Once you know where they are near your home and work, it isn't an issue.
I just got back from Germany/Austria. There are loads of 1-Series small (sub 2-liter) diesel hatchbacks there. Way more to be seen than any other BMW model.
There is no sub-2L-1-Series diesel. 118d, 120d, 123d are all 2.0L. The 3-series still sells better than the 1-series (8687 3ers in April), though 1-Series sales are up big time in Germany (8567 1ers in April) - if you compare April 2008 to April 2007, they sold 132% more 1ers than last year.
I just got a new, black 118d last week. It's fantastic. With a light right foot, 50 mpg is absolutely possible.
I am jealous of your ability to buy the 118d. That's the model I mostly saw. Since the 3-series comes in Diesel flavor in Europe, I can see how the series still out-sells the 1-Series. The only real issue with the 1-Series hatch is that the RWD powertrain makes ot a bit inefficient in stace utilization vs. other small hatches.
It was not substantial in the EU until the modern diesel engine came along. They were sought after here in the USA, in the late 1970s to try and save money on fuel. The supply limited the sale of diesel VWs more than the market. I for one was not able to wait a year to get a diesel Dasher or Rabbit. I could not afford a Mercedes Diesel at the time. The GM diesels were a joke from the start.
If you go out and drive the X5 35D compared to the V6 gasser on the highway I am guessing it will be night and day superiority for the diesel. Then when you get to the station with nearly twice the driving range it will be clear why the Europeans that have a choice go for the diesel versions. Ignorance on the part of Americans is no excuse.
I see your diesel as of yesterday is only 9% higher than Premium, making the BMW diesels an easy decision.
The 1 series is sold out for 2008. May be your local BMW dealer want to rape customers and sell for MSRP + 5K? 135i is perfect car, it has true BMW spirit. Who needs ugly hatchback with weak engines?
The diesel passenger car market in America has always been negligible, peaking at about 6% many years ago (as compared to Europe with something like 40% or more at the present time.)
America has challenges for diesel that Europe doesn't have, such as higher Nox requirements (meaning particulate filters and other bolt-on technologies), as well as considerably higher diesel fuel prices, and formidable American ambivalence about diesel automobiles.
it's probably good that Americans get exposed to more luxury diesel cars right now instead of something from China or Korea or the rather spotty reliability of VW products.
And don't expect GM to bring diesels to the U.S. Lutz sees the diesel advantage deteriorating with the higher cost of the engine itself and the high cost of diesel fuel.
Regards,
OW
So the Germans are in the catbird seat for diesel sales, small as they may be in the future. Market share is market share, no matter how you get it, seems to me.
Great line! Also true for all of the non-diesel cars they make!
Regards,
OW
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
GM deserves credit for trying, but the V-8-6-4 was the Titanic of engine programs. The cars jerked, bucked, stalled, made rude noises and generally misbehaved until wild-eyed owners took the cars to have the system disconnected. For some it was the last time they ever saw the inside of a Cadillac dealership.
Regards,
OW
Given that they were mostly Cadillac Fleetwoods and Oldsmobiles, and given those brands average age of purchasers, they all may very well be dead by now.
RIght now my choices are the X5 and ML diesels from Germany. Both built in the USA. Or at least assembled here.
Regards,
OW