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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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You're making the same mistake again, citing anectdotal evidence as scientific proof -- saying that the test numbers are wrong because some people claim to exceed them.
The only way to settle this would be to take a Prius and a TDI, and run both fuel tanks dry. Then put exactly the same amount of fuel in each car, and drive both of them at the same time along the same route at the same speed until each runs dry again. That'd answer the question real quick.
This is an open invitation for Edmunds to conduct this definitive, real-world comparison.
I was talking what the buzz is in the real world. Of sourse it is anecdotal, but it is interesting the direction the anecdotes tend to take. I wouldn't expect hybrid owners to be any less biased than diesel owners, but maybe you have other thoughts. I invite your real world comparison challenge, and hope someone takes you up on it.
The new advanced lean burn technology motor vehicle credit is the sum of: (1) a fuel economy amount that varies with the rated fuel economy of a qualifying vehicle compared to the 2002 model year city fuel economy for a vehicle in its weight class; and (2) a conservation credit based on the estimated lifetime fuel savings of the vehicle compared to fuel used by a vehicle in its weight class and with fuel economy equal to the 2002 model year city fuel economy. The new qualified hybrid motor vehicle credit for passenger automobiles and light trucks is computed under the same formula as the new advanced lean burn technology motor vehicle credit. Both the new advanced lean burn technology motor vehicle credit and the new qualified hybrid motor vehicle credit begin to phase out for a manufacturer’s passenger automobiles and light trucks in the second calendar quarter after the calendar quarter in which at least 60,000 of the manufacturer’s passenger automobiles and light trucks that qualify for either credit have been sold for use in the United States
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-06-09.pdf
Totally preposterous accusation. Again. The ratings are what the ratings are. The Jetta actually DID ONLY perform a 29/41 on the new EPA test.
Again you are assuming that we can trust the testing by the EPA as legitimate. Where is the peer review? VW protested the EPA test. Did the EPA respond and have an outside company do a second test? VW paid to have an outside test and found the EPA to be 24% lower than their test. You can follow the EPA goose step. I refuse to believe they are totally honest in their dealings.
Again, you are missing something. The CAR COMPANIES are the Peer review !!!
The CAR COMPANIES have the full EPA test protocol and run the tests for most cars in their own labs.
When and if the EPA tested the Jetta themselves AND VW also tested the Jetta, the test results were compared and were obviously the same.
VW has never said "the EPA tested the Jetta using their protocol and got a DIFFERENT RESULT than when WE tested the car using the EPA protocol in OUR LABS so therefore the EPA fudged the results."
What they did was say, "Hey, I think the EPA test is shorting us. Let's get it tested independently and see if we can get better numbers."
That's what happened. It was not the EPA doing anything WRONG or INCORRECT at all.
I don't think this is as hard for a smart guy like you to understand as you are trying to make it. There is no bias involved.
Besides, neither VW or EPA is relevant IMO. What's relevant is what 99% of the cars do out on the streets being driven normally by normal people doing normal car-things over a normal amount of mileage at a normal speed.
As it turned out that was about 44 mpg for a normal Prius. :P
As it turned out that was about 44 mpg for a normal Prius.
You made one of my points much better than I did.
I personally can't stand hybrids or diesels. My mother has a Golf diesel that she recently bought to replace a late '90s Jetta diesel. The diesel engines in those cars just suck the life from them.
As it turned out that was about 44 mpg for a normal Prius.
That is also the case that most owners of VW diesels are getting better mileage than the old EPA numbers. I have been exceeding those numbers for over seven of the eight years I've had my Beetle. I am considering a new TDI Jetta Sportswagen but would also like to see what/when Subaru and Honda bring something to the market. There are some direct comparisons of hybrids to the new VW on you-tube. The biggest problem with direct comparisons is that you have to balance the driving for each type. hybrids efficancy is best in city driving and diesels are best on highway. I run about 43 around town, with some interstate at 70+, and have hit 56 on state highway with cruise set at 60.
If the info was not there, it would be far FAR worse than having an estimate which is off by 3-4 MPG on average.
I don't think those estimates are irrelevant at all.
At least VW is willing to put their reputation on the line and buck the EPA. They are also going to post their independent mileage ratings.
Thanks for MAKING MY POINT !!! If VW had NOT gotten the SAME RESULTS AS THE EPA did when VW was using the EPA testing protocol, they would NOT have spent money getting an independent tester to test the TDI in a different manner !!
You finally GOT IT GARY !!!!!
If they had gotten DIFFERENT RESULTS than the EPA, then they would hae argued "The EPA is screwing us by falsifying the test!!!" But they did not say that, did they?
Of COURSE we DO KNOW THAT !!!
VW or you or I can get the exact same results as the EPA test because the EPA test does not allow for variations !! It would be the same every time !!! It's done in a controlled environment !!!
That's why VW had to hire an outside agency to run a DIFFERENT set of tests !!
Sadly people believe their government and find out later it is all lies. Just like those that bought the Prius with grand hopes it would get 60 MPG in town and that was not the case. It would be so much better and put the responsibility on the automakers if they had to do the tests and be required to back up the mileage estimates. The way it is the poor customer has NO recourse when he buys a Prius that was rated 60 MPG city and he is getting 40 MPG. Toyota knew the estimates were phony and were able to blame it all on the entity that HAS NO responsibility for what they do. The EPA.
If it is a comparison of what the same person would get driving two different cars it should be accurate. It is so far off it STINKS.
"VOLKSWAGEN DEALERSHIP COMMUNICATION
To: Dealer Principals, General Managers and Department Managers
Name: Mark Barnes
Title: Chief Operating Officer
Subject: 2009 MY Jetta TDI Fuel Economy VW Brand Department
Date: June 6, 2008
Following up my letter of May 23, I am pleased to inform you that our independent third party certified testing of the fuel economy on the 2009 Jetta TDI with DSG transmission is now complete. AMCI is the industry leader in independent vehicle testing, validation and certification. As expected, the ‘real world” fuel economy is significantly higher than the EPA estimates.
2009 Jetta TDI 2.0L DSG Fuel Economy
EPA City: 29 Highway: 40 Combined: 33
AMCI City: 38 Highway: 44 Combined: 41
The “real world” AMCI - measured combined fuel economy represents an overdelivery by 24.2% versus the stated EPA fuel economy.
What does this mean? It means your clean diesel customers can safely expect their new Jetta TDI clean diesels will beat the EPA estimates. It means a Jetta TDI owner can expect a range of close to 600 miles between fill ups.
As my earlier note stated, we had optimism going into this independent testing because Volkswagen Jettas with a diesel engine have historically over-delivered on EPA estimates. These independent test results from AMCI assure us that the situation will remain unchanged for 2009.
Should your diesel customers express concern over posted EPA fuel economy estimates, be sure to share these independent certified test results with them.
Jetta TDI clean diesel fuel economy and range, combined with three years of Carefree scheduled maintenance, make the prospect of TDI ownership economical, fun, and worry-free.
It’s what the people want!
Mark Barnes"
So there is no way they used the EPA protocol. I am searching the web now for more info.
You have evidence to that? Do you have evidence that VW ran the same tests that the EPA themselves and got the same results? I don't even believe the EPA actually run any tests. I think they have a bunch of over paid greenie geeks with computers that come up with all these numbers. And you cannot prove otherwise. I have emails from the EPA that say they do not divulge which cars they test. You are living in a world that sees people as all good when it is just the opposite. There is no reason to believe the EPA is any more honest than our lying Congress and the rest of those thieves in Washington DC.
Which part is a lie? The tests which the carmakers do themselves? The EPA allows the carmakers to lie? Because you yourself know that most of the testing is done by the carmakers.
Gary says, "The way it is the poor customer has NO recourse when he buys a Prius that was rated 60 MPG city and he is getting 40 MPG."
What "recourse" would you say they deserved? The EPA test was flawed, but regardless of that fact, ALL THE CARS GET THE MPG which is on the sticker when the EPA test is performed on them. Of that there can be no doubt.
Sorry for wasting the other reader's time.
I'll stop now.....
P.S. Back on Topic - I would want a diesel hybrid 5-passenger car rated in the 60+ MPG range before I would buy a diesel car.
I did this with a friend's Prius (nice of him) and figured out that how I drive and where I drive means that if I bought this car, I'd average between 44-47 mpg on an annual basis.
So I bought a brand new Scion xA for about 1/2 the price and settled for a very real 34 MPG.
I'd say the 2009 JEtta combined EPA of 35 is "in the ballpark" with AMCI's combined 41 mpg. Since when is 35 not in the ballpark with 41?
There are TCH users getting below 35 and higher than 41, so that is within the range of real-world driver differences. Will it not be the same for the Jetta? Some Jetta drivers will get below 41 and some will get more.
And remember: out of the 615 2008 cars the EPA tested with the new method, only ONE of them was diesel. Not a lot of data there to figure out why and how to re-work the test to fit diesels in better, was there?
EPA City: 29 Highway: 40 Combined: 33
AMCI City: 38 Highway: 44 Combined: 41
So, highway only went up 4 points? Not much of an improvement there, and still a ways away from 50+ mpg.
If it had been the EPA test, the Memo would have said so. Instead, it said "real world" testing.
We all know that the EPA test is in a lab.
Just put two and two twogether.
I know you believe that. It does not make it so. If the automaker decides to do the test with an engine that has several hundred hours they will get a different set of numbers than one never run before. There is enough difference in fuel around the country to change the readings by 10-15-20%. There needs to be over sight on that bunch of loonies. We know the leader is a whacked out environmentalist that has threatened to quit because he does not like the President's energy policy. So I have to question everything the EPA does that is not looking right.
Honda - Subaru - Nissan and yes I'll say it even a smart sharply designed American made 4dr diesel would have all been at the top of my list in 2001.
Now its 2008 and I've decided my next car will be diesel no excuses or buts about it but again VW is at the bottom of my list. Sorry I hate VW the last two I owned were horrible cars and the dealers were even worse.
So rumors about Ford bringing its sleek and pretty stylish Euro Fiesta here to the US this is the first Ford I've found interesting since hmm? Can't remember last time I even considered Ford show rooms a place to stop by and ask questions. If the Festiva shows up on US shores with Euro styling - cool interior options and a diesel it will be at the top of my list to go test drive.
I'm a first time Subaru owner (traded my Toyota in for the subaru) and of all the cars I've owned or had access too my non turbo legacy has been fantastic and Subaru the dealers and company have been over the top shockingly fantastic to me. If the current Subaru Impreza were offered with a leather package - sun roof and a diesel this very day - I would be standing at the dealer with cash in hand for my diesel impreza.
If Mini Cooper had a diesel option I'm pretty sure my wife would have one on order cash in hand. We make enough we could buy a BMW 335D but neither of us will ever spend that sort of money on a car. Same goes for the Audi Q7 or whatever that TDI V12 beast is.
On the other hand I really liked the 120D BMW' wagons we saw in Spain assuming they aren't $50,000 cars that would be on my list.
I really - hope that by 2010 we do have diesel cars to choose from because thats when I plan on replacing my 2001 subaru which will be in the 200,000 mile range by then. If subaru has a 6spd manual -diesel passenger car it will be #1 on my list, if they don't have diesel here - and Ford has the Festiva I'll take a look at it and might consider it for a commuter car and thats saying alot given I thought Ford went out of business years ago, HA HA.
We have done this rodeo before, Amigo.
Read my typing:
No Carmaker Would Risk Submitting A Test Result Which The EPA Could Test Themselves And Dispute.
The EPA does not allow any "gaming" when it comes to results on which they put their name.
Same thing happens with Prius drivers and other Hybrid drivers. But even that isn't going to cut it if this fuel crisis is real. Plug in hybrids seem like a much better solution rather than trying to squeeze into a Smart sized car with a diesel. The other problem is diesel doesn't burn as clean as Gas it has to be filtered and trapped into being as clean, a fact yet to be seen. But for the filters and traps to work they have to be serviced and once again you are dealing with the average American Consumer.
I see a lot more use in a diesel SUV, or larger sedan because it plays ot the diesel strong point, torque. Much like gagrice my Tahoe gets at best 16-18 MPG at 55MPH on cruise control. But where a diesel might get 20 in a X-5 it wouldn't pulling a 6000 pound boat. When I took my last trip to Colorado I averaged 12 MPG pulling our travel trailer. I have an older 5.7 and just a cold air and aftermarket exhaust. Most of the diesels at the camp ground were telling me they were getting 14 to 15 driving the save route as I. My best fuel mileage was 13 on that trip. The diesels could easily pass me going up a long hill or into a heavy head wind but only three MPG isn't enough to get me to go for the extra expense for servicing and fuel let alone the extra 5 to 7K out the door.
So to sell me on a diesel it has to overcome the price difference both out the door and at the pump and pay for itself before it wears out. VWs dependability rating over a three year period isn't very impressive and I would be interested if they might want to hire an independent company to try and change that perception.
If my options are getting a Honda or Toyota Hybrid promising 50 MPG, even if I would wait for a plug in hybrid anyway, or getting a 40 to 44 MPG VW the choice should be easy. Toyota and Honda have a very good dependability track record and should last for several years. VW has a poor track record and has had a poor one for as many years as I have been reading dependability studies. You can always pay you money and take you chances but the safer bet is the cars that have the best record.
The new diesel technology being touted in the passenger cars hasn't been applied to the trucks we have in the US, which would increase the milege a little more over our current diesel trucks but unless the builders opted for smaller engines and improved areodynamics the change wouldn't be that great.
But when applied to lighter - and sleek passenger cars the milege difference can be quite large between the gas version and the diesel version.
For kicks I have an old school Toyota Land cruiser 1994 strait 6 gasser 13mpg no matter how its driven fast or slow, or what it tows -ie the aerodynamics of a brick. The same exact land cruiser in Tanzania with a low tech strait 6 diesel driven for max milege can get into the 24mpg US standard - range quite a large difference. Though at freeway speeds much like what we do here in the US the diesel version gets down around 19mpg. Granted its a dirty old diesel though still cleaner than the new Range Rover TDI's which smoke like old garbage trucks.
With a car a Plug in Hybrid would get closer to 70 MPG for the first 40 to 50 miles. That is the reports I have read anyway and the reasoning for the plug in conversions to Prius we read about. You simply can't get that with a common rail diesel in the same size car. Turbo charging and making high pressure injector are not moving fuel mileage in the right direction. Yes the diesels are performing more like a gas rig but they are not getting diesel fuel mileage. Like I said the old dirty diesel Rabbit got close to 50 MPG 25 years ago. Diesels seem to be going in the same direction the rest of our automotive fleet was, more power, less fuel mileage.
The EPA regulates stuff like this. The '85 rules say that if a car is tested with an engine that has more than 6,200 miles on it, they have to adjust the test data per a formula. If the manufacturer wants to use, say, a certain oil for testing the mpg of an engine, it has to be representative of what is likely to be used by consumers.
Here's the link if you care to click through to the rules. I just happened to land on that one - I'm sure the newer rules kept tinkering with the loopholes.
From EPA:
Dr. Greene
The old tests are now more than 40 years old, based on driving that doesn’t include high-speed highway driving, doesn’t include the kind of rapid acceleration that modern vehicles are capable of, and doesn’t include as much use of air conditioners or accessory equipment as we now have on automobiles.
Vazquez
The test itself is run on a chassis dynamometer in a controlled laboratory environment. The test cycle driver follows a pre-programmed “route” that approximates stops and starts in an urban environment, idling time, and free-flowing traffic at up to 60 miles-per-hour.
The raw economy numbers from these tests are used in determining a carmakers compliance with Federal CAFE standards, but the number found on the window sticker is determined by applying a preset multiplier, to account for variables such as wind, temperature and driving conditions that can lower fuel economy.
For the past few years, though, the EPA has been re-thinking this procedure, trying to get estimates that are more consistently closer to real-world driving results.
Donn Weinberg
As long as they feel it’s going to more accurately reflect what people will to get and if in fact they are going to take into account there are many aggressive drivers, so much the better.
Vazquez
So beginning with 2008 model-year cars, the EPA is including results from three additional test cycles in their calculations: One that includes more aggressive acceleration and highway speeds up to 80 miles-per-hour, another with the use of air conditioning, and finally a 20-degree cold start.
Of course, the reason for providing fuel economy estimates is so car buyers can choose the most efficient vehicle that meets their needs, so the window stickers themselves are also changing with the times.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/motorweektranscriptfueleconomytests.shtml
By the very statements made by EPA personnel there is no way you could get the same results twice on the same vehicle. It is humanly impossible. One tester will stomp on the gas the next will smoothly accelerate. These are not machine tests. They are done by different humans on vehicle set up on a dyno. Was he in a hurry to get out for a smoke break. I'm sorry you guys are easy if you believe there is anything consistent about the way the EPA operates.
VW should sue the EPA for loss of tax credits due their buyers.
Given the past experiences I wouldn't get a VW diesel at any price. I'd wait for Honda, Ford, GM, Nissan or Toyota to offer one first.
With the advances in gasser technology just around the corner and the pricing differential there is little or no economic benefit for the individual consumer at the current levels. I do recognize though that there IS a benefit for the nation as a whole to use less fuel in a diesel than in a gasser.....excluding the hybrids.
I don't think that diesel technology can progress as fast as hybrid technology will.
Between the test criteria and the double-checking of the manufacturer results by the EPA, I'd say they are the best snapshot of mpg out there.
And those diesel mpg ratings will have to hit 60ish before I'd really consider a diesel in the garage - I might could put up with the other issues for a 5 or 600 mile range on a vehicle.
[Edit - ok, here's the pdf link that talks about the recent revision of the mpg standards and how the EPA looked at AAA, CR, Strategic Vision and Edmunds numbers while redoing their regs. Should also note that the automakers are heavily involved in commenting on all these rules.]
This is true. I can take any Prius in good working order and get 60-70 mpg in the City for any period from 30 min to 30 months ( in fact I do it every day). There was nothing wrong with the old EPA ratings except that few of us drove in the manner that the test were done. The same is true of Highway driving. In fact I've been getting the 'old' EPA values for the entire 85000 miles I've owned this current Prius ( adjusted of course for weather, inclement conditions and high speed driving )
I know a local oil company that carries bio-diesel and I've thought about just getting a contract for them to fill the old heating oil tank in my backyard, and filling the car from that if I ever get a diesel car.
I got 99 MPG in a Prius coasting down a mountain pass on Hwy 70 into Grand Junction Colorado :P
I guess if you crept around the city on battery power or a light gas pedal under 35 mph you could crack 60 MPG. Never did that myself but it seems feasible. But you can't drive like that in San Francisco.
I farm and have used diesels for over 40 years. First of all they get 40 to 100+% better fuel burn than gas. Secondly, their life expectancy is 3 to 7 time a corresponding gas engine which means the diesel far out lives the car/truck.
The present hybrids are the must expensive at 200,000 miles, next is gas, and then diesels. Go to 400,000 miles and check cost and you will love diesel.
If you want the best get a "Stanley Steamer'
With respect to the mpg-based label values, diesels still perform the best of the four types of vehicles, now exceeding their label values by 18%
What I did not found is an apology for cheating all future VW Jetta TDI purchasers out of their Tax credit difference. There is no doubt in my mind that the new Jetta TDI will increase the mileage over the 2002 gas Jetta by enough to warrant the full allowed tax credit of $3400. The whole idea of the tax credit was to encourage people to buy more fuel efficient vehicles. The actions of the EPA knowingly down grading the diesel estimates does not seem to be encouraging people to save fossil fuel.
The other thing I learned from that 179 page report. Edmund's drivers are all hotdogs.
That is exactly right. A small gas engine is fine where it is flat as a pancake. Where I live the terrain goes from sea level to 4500 foot pass in 35 miles with lots of up and down. Just my jaunt to Costco takes me from near sea level to my home at 2060 feet. With one grade that my Ford Ranger V6 cannot keep up with the 75 MPH+ traffic. Neither can the Prius and many others. It causes traffic issues that are not pleasant. I usually drive on the old highway 80 that winds through the hills rather going straight over them. I found my diesel Passat handled those speeds with ease. Better than my gas guzzling Sequoia. So first real opportunity I will buy a diesel SUV and sell the Sequoia. They are still very popular around here.
Absolutely! because that's exactly the methodology of the old EPA test. That is precisely the test. I've done it in NYC, I've done it in Va Beach, I've done it on the shore in NC. If one was to drive exactly according to the EPA test parameters then hitting 60+ mpg in the City is easy to do.
Just after I made the prior post I left work and had to fill up by chance. Thus I was able to get a good measurement of speed & traffic vs fuel economy.
For the first 15 miles it was small town driving with few lights at a constant speed of about 40-45 mph. For that segment I ran at about 58 mpg. That's faster than the 35 mph avg of the old EPA test so it makes sense.
For the next 60 miles it was rural highways, with a 45-55 speed limit and multiple unmarked cruisers, where 58-63 is 'safe'. For that segment ( 80% of the weighted avg ) I ran at ~ 53 mpg.
That's an overall average of 54.4 mpg ( 20% @ 58 + 80% @ 53 ).
The weather was perfect @ 65 deg with good traction on a dead flat terrain...which also are the exact parameters of the old EPA tests.
Rinse, wash, repeat twice daily for 3 yrs and 85000 mi.
So why is the lifetime average only 47.8 mpg? Winter driving!!! Depending on the severity of the winter weather FE drops by 10-20% from Nov through Mar.
This is erroneous, sorry.
First you're talking about farm equipment, mainly trucks, and there are no hybrid trucks - yet. GM will have them soon. Thus there is no valid data to support your statement.
Now if you're speaking about autos where there is some data up to 200,000 miles the correct order ( depending on the maker of the vehicle ) is hybrids cost the least, diesels are 2nd ( unless it's a VW then it's last ) and gassers are the most costly.
This is very easy to show.
I wonder how much of that is the reduced output from the batteries in colder temperatures?
I recall reading fleet maintenance reports from Europe (where diesel cars and light trucks are common) and they suggest that the statistical lifespan of a gasoline engine is 175,000 miles and a diesel 225,000 miles.
Somehow this sounds about right to me, for a real car in the real world, as maintained by your average American driver.
Diesel engines are built stronger, that is true, but they cost more to make and they require not LESS, but DIFFERENT maintenance.
The contributing factors in reduced FE in winter driving are :
...The ICE has to work longer and harder in very cold weather to warm up the fluids, warm up the cabin ( and keep it comfortable ) and to warm up the cat converter. The colder the weather the more the ICE has to run. The big benefit to the hybrids is that the ICE can be shut down for long periods. In winter this isn't so easy to do.
...WIND!! It's a huge deterrent to good FE. Think riding a bicycle into a 20 mph head wind.
...Worse traction from snow, ice, slush, rain, etc.
The latter 2 affect all vehicles the same, they all suffer in bad winter driving. The first results in the hybrids having only a small benefit over the non-hybrids because the hybrid ICE has to run almost the same as it does in a non-hybrid. Long trips are good for the hybrids in winter. Short trips are DEATH to FE.