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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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I think he's also saying that the domestics better not screw it up.
I didn't. I was also looking at all the positive comments. I am really more interested in how much of the GC comes from the MB engineering. I know every person I have talked to with a GC loves it and would buy another. Also is the VM Motori V6 diesel a German designed engine? Complaints like the hot steering wheel make me laugh. I have driven in arguably the coldest climate on earth, and never needed a heated steering wheel and never wore gloves while driving.
The Domestics are not batting that well for sure. I would not give you a nickel for a Ford diesel truck. GM with the Japanese designed engine is ok. The Dodge/Ram is superior as the domestics go. Jeep Liberty was all about kludging a decent diesel engine to pass the EPA goons. Remember the EU owners of the Liberty diesel were very happy. Lets hope VM Motori has it right with the engine that is going into the new GC. I don't have a lot of faith in the Cruze diesel. I guess we will see.
Well, if that's true (I'm not suggesting it isn't), and if the same is true regarding Chevrolet dealers and the diesel Cruze, it certainly doesn't bode well for the success of domestic diesels, does it?
Exactly how is a vehicle serviced when no one at the dealership has any education on it?
Darn good observation. I should ask a Jeep service manager if any of his team have been to school on the new Jeep GC with diesel? You would think someone would get schooling on a new model vehicle.
VM Motori started supplying Chrysler in 1992, with the Chrysler Voyager’s diesel option. Today, VM Motori powers several European Chrysler and Jeep cars, as well as (as of Februrary 2011) the Chevrolet Captiva, London Taxi, Megastar van, and Maxus van. Today, two VM engines are used by Chrysler: the 2.8 (Wrangler, Voyager, and Cherokee) and 3.0 (Grand Cherokee, 300C/Thema.) The Maserati Kubang is reportedly to use a highly modified version of the 3.0 liter V6 as well.
Fuel economy for the new 3.0-liter turbo diesel engine (as used in the Grand Cherokee) is 8.3 L/100km on the combined cycle, an improvement of 17% over the prior diesel engine.
That is 28 MPG combined US gallons.
VM Motori diesels
While not necessary, it was nice since it is cold today. Once you're warm you turn it off (I did instinctively).
Segway to get back on topic - the fabric covered pillars remind me of the nicer VW TDI models.
I just got back from another sea level to 7,300 ft altitude round trip 210 miles each way and various around town mileage. I posted 29 mpg on the upgrade and 33 on the down grade for a trip average of 31 mpg , pen and ink fill in the flats. Diesel has gone up .30 cents since the last trip. Again, I did NOT start with a full tank.
"Wrangler customers really want a diesel," Jeep boss Mike Manley told me at the show. "It's a target vehicle for a diesel once we see the reaction to the Grand Cherokee." (Detroit Free Press)
“The biggest concern is the Wrangler. The factory can’t keep up,” said Bob Ralph, general manager of Ingram Park Chrysler-Dodge-Jeep-Ram in San Antonio. “It’s a pretty good problem to have.”
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20130210/RETAIL06/130219981#ixzz2KbmndJt8
The Pentastar V6 improved demand when it replaced the old minivan engine, and the 8EAT is coming soon. So they will have demand > supply for the near future, at least.
Article says Durango is cold, maybe stuff it in there? It's a stretch Cherokee platform IIRC so little change would be required.
The upshot is one pays 3,498 DIESEL premium (MSRP). On the paper comparison of RESALE between the two, the difference (all things being equal) is an $1,138 dollar diesel premium. (UPSHOT: anyone can run their particular numbers in the same manner)
I took the liberty of factoring 20,000 miles @ real world 20/30 mpg. Fuel consumption is 1,000 gals PUG vs 667 gals ULSD (=333.3 gals more PUG, 50% fuel SAVINGS). SO at corner store PUG prices $4.05* 333.3 gals that is $1,350.
So, if you run them side by side, then that is PUG @$4.05 x 1000= $4,050-$2,795=$1,255. So either with the fuel SAVINGS or run along side, essentially B/E is in the first year. (between the 10th to 11 month).
So over the course of say a 60 mo/5 year payment plan savings are a min of 1255 x 4 years or $5020.
So, if you run them side by side, then that is PUG $4.05 x 1000= $4,050-$2,795=$1,255. So either with the fuel SAVINGS or run along side, essentially B/E is in the first year. (between the 10th to 11 month).
So over the course of say a 60 mo/5 year payment plan savings are a min of 1255 x 4 years or $5020.
I've been following this discussion closely. I think the numbers depend on the cost of PUG and ULSD in your area.
I'll use the same miles (20,000) and MPG (20 gas / 30 diesel) that you're using, but when I plug in the Gas Buddy prices for a local Shell station in my town in Colorado, I get the following:
PUG: $3.57 * 1000 = $3570 - annual fuel costs
ULSD: $3.86 * 667 = $2575 - annual fuel costs
Delta is $995 per year ... if the diesel version is $3498 more expensive (MSRP), it will take 3.5 years to break even, not the 10 or 11 months you're showing. Meaning, the total savings for the 5 year note is only $1500 ($995 x 1.5).
Unless my math is wrong ....
Of course it does ! I said that up front (defacto) ! ? YOU said it also ! ? So is it a stretch to say you agree? So on the 1,138 diesel RESALE difference and ONLY $955 delta (in your area) that is more like 1.19 years. A difference is expected, unless you have the same numbers, which you indicate you DON'T.
Dad's got one in his 200 convertible. Nice engine, plenty of power, and responsive.
I don't think it's particularly fuel efficient, but it might have more to do with the cars it's attached to.
23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd
The Pentastar gets 18.4-18.7 for the 2 years its been out. Call it 18.5
So the Pentastar was within 12% of the old CRD, and in many places diesel costs more than regular.
So the Pentastar ain't so bad.
But the CRD was awful. Question is, how much better will the new diesel be? I wouldn't be surprised to see mid 20s on fuelly.
All of which is irrelevant if a person is determined to quit using CA crap gas as I am. I am not worried in the least about the diesel premium when new. That always comes back to you on resale. It all comes down to how much fossil fuel you are wanting to use.
Whoa, whoa, whoa ... help me understand why the resale difference matters here.
If you sell your car after 1.19 years, I guess you'll save 100% since you won't have anything to drive!
Again, please note the ...
My point is that, with a $.30 difference between PUG and ULSD, and driving 20,000 miles a year, and a 50% difference between gas and diesel MPG (20 vs. 30), it would take 3.5 years to recoup the extra purchase cost of the diesel.
Of course, changing any of those numbers in the above assumptions will change the result.
But as I have duly noted, most gasser folks are just fine with paying a lot more per mile driven FUEL than the very few like model diesels in the passenger vehicle fleet.
Let's see how this new diesel engine fares here. Fuelly does show results rather quickly.
Diesels are popular at that site, too. Jetta is #1.
That said..after being very very influenced by the USA/Cdn Jeep Liberty diesel emission'd-sabotaged VM Motori 2.8 fiasco nightmares, I can honestly say that if I was in the market for this new GC oil burner, I'd be stepping with very deliberate, cautious...almost reserved... steps.
Gobs of economical, on-demand torque is intoxicating, but at what price if the infatuation is short-lived?
I almost hate to admit it, but I do have more faith in a potential non-American effort in accomplishing a positive result with this new diesel's entry. Long term.
In this day and age, I respect that.
And there was the time I was tire-kicking before buying the '99 van and met someone at Fred Meyer's to look at her car. Got there and she handed us the keys, we got in to test it and the car was dead. I had to jump her car off before saying no thanks. :-)
In topical news, "In an effort to rebrand diesel and stoke interest in new cleaner-burning diesel car models, Audi recently banded together with other German auto makers and suppliers to launch a website called www.clearlybetterdiesel.org."
Audi Hopes to Woo U.S. Drivers With Diesel Models (Wall St. Journal)
Note the comment there by NC biker.
Mr. Killen from Audi said that “a big part of future sales is in education.”
But the fuel may need more than marketing to attract increasing numbers of U.S. buyers. The question could come down to cost. Gasoline is still cheaper than diesel in the U.S. while European governments tax gasoline more heavily. And diesel-fueled cars tend to cost more than their gasoline-powered counterparts."...
It to me is very INTERESTING the US markets REWARD INCREASED fuel USE and Europe rewards decreased fuel use. Further evidence is USLD generally is priced more than either PUG/RUG. Further CA taxes ULSD even more than an already stilfling RUG/PUG tax. In that sense, one would almost totally gloss over that ESSENTIAL point, reading the 2nd paragraph quote.
This is true, even as cost per mile driven fuel for PUG are 45% MORE per mile driven PUG !!!!
(given VW T TDI real world mpg of 30 mpg vs Acura MDX of 20 mpg in past post, same trip, and with current corner store prices of $4.23/$4.09)
So for example, given the above parenthesis information, ANY number of miles (cost per : fuel) can be figured.
So say we use 100,000 miles: * .141 cents/.2045 cents= $14,100 vs $20,450. ULSD (given the same amount of "work" and the fact is MORE expensive , generally per gal than PUG)
PUG costs $6,350 MORE in fuel or 45% MORE.
(incidently the Acura MDX costs more than the VWT TDI. So B/E defacto is from the git go!!!! )
We of course know what the US markets overwhelmingly CHOSE ( does 95% to 97% fit the moniker overwhelming?) . And we wonder wonder why the US is falling behind in math????? :sick:
Nice shoes by the way ! Is that a visual play on words that Audi wants to increase its "FOOT" print in US markets?
That is pretty ironic coming from an "NC biker," given the fact that many to most bikes are sans emissions controls on their PUG/RUG cycles (not to mention SANS noise control) . Even one knows that PUG/RUG puts out (30 to 90 ppm) 2 to 18 TIMES more pollutants than USLD !!! :sick: (15 ppm but nominally delivered at the pumps @ 5 to 10 ppm) But it is seasoned "Al Gore ish" hypocrisy only on a smaller scale .
(The reason we're behind in math is because we count eleven, twelve, thirteen.... Math savvy countries count ten, ten and one, ten and two, ten and three. Our kids have to jump to "twenty and one" to get back in the groove).
Love the smell of diesel in the morning. Nothing like the smell of biodiesel to raise your craving for McDonald's French Fries.
PS
You can keep your silly Metric system. yuck
In addition, there are HEFTY fines/penalties for D2/ULSD that exceeds the standard of 15 ppm. On the other hand, the standard for RUG/PUG is @ 30 ppm. If a vendor wants to bring 30 to 90 ppm RUGPUG to market, all they have to do is pay the standard fees for exceeding the 30 ppm standards. :surprise:
ULSD in the UK is 10ppm Sulphur content and has been since 2011. Same ULSD is also now, (since start of 2012), mandated for use in all railroad diesel locomotives. We haven't seen 50ppm for years and years. Indeed, common sense would tell you that our huge population of diesel cars, (German, French, Swedish, Japanese etc), would simply be killed by 50ppm gunk. 10ppm is, of course an EU Standard.
Also............UK pricing for Gasoline and ULSD includes exactly the same levels of taxation for each fuel. Gasoline is cheaper than ULSD by approx 7 pence per litre, (£0.07 per litre), but diesel cars are still the best sellers. MPG gains generally outweigh the cost difference. Local prices to-day are :
Gasoline : £1.349 per litre
ULSD : £1.419 per litre
You can do your own calculations to get to $/USG.
Yes we buy our fuels in Litres but calculate our economy in MPG. Some things are hard to change.
My sister tries to go over to England most every Spring for the gardens and she usually rents a car. I keep waiting for her to wind up with a diesel and then put gasoline in it (that'd be just like her too). She usually rents the cheapest models she can get though, so maybe that's why she winds up with gassers.
Let's keep in mind the Pentastar V6 is a lot more powerful. Back in 07 the V6 made only 210hp, the small V8 had 235.
Today's Pentastar makes 260hp, more then the old V8 did.
Even torque output is good - 290 lb-ft.
Read more: http://www.trucktrend.com/features/news/2013/163_news130111_subaru_teases_viziv_- concept/viewall.html#ixzz2KhzRZbtt
Germany is full of diesels, and the air quality I have observed there over the last 10 years or so has been excellent. Until smoking was all but banned in Germany, the atmosphere was 1000 times worse in a pub or a restaurant than on the street/highway.
That's my take on it, anyway...