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Couldn't have said it better myself!
1. A "dance on the grave of Toyota" topic - if you're only here to revel in the misery of the company or Toyota vehicle owners, you're in the wrong place. Taking delight in the misfortune of others isn't welcome anywhere in our Forums.
2. A psychiatrist's office - it's not the place to tell others that their fears are irrational. Keep in mind that others may have a different level of risk tolerance than you do, and please respect that difference.
Further inflammatory comments (and associated graphics) are subject to removal without notice.
Please stick to discussing the ISSUE and not other members of this forum. Thank you!
kirstie_h
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
So serious!
How do you know that for sure? What motivation does he have to purposely lie? You're assuming that your phone number accurately matches up with your VIN number in the database he's checking. Why not call him back with the VIN number and see if it matches what you found on the other website? If he still says no, you've got some other evidence that you can question him about.
At least my 2010 SE does.
I am driving a 2006 Avalon XLS with a CTS pedal and it has 46,000 miles on it. I tried stacking floor mats and I was not able to make the mats reach anywhere near the bottom of the gas pedal.
I have noticed no change at all in the gas pedal function since early 2006. I figure the odds on my car having a problem with the pedal are about one in millions and millions of Toyotas sold since 2006. It's a car and a mechanical object that can break at any time, so I have to be prepared when I'm behind the wheel.
Be prepared. The Boy Scouts have a good motto don't you know.
And I just had the oil hose replaced under the recall, so that's good to go for at least another 46,000 miles I figure. The old oil hose seemed to be just fine - no cracks, bulges, nothing, but if they want to give me something free I'm all for it.
Oh well, some people expect perfection. They will always be disappointed, at least in this life.
John
I also noticed that the side of the pedal slightly brushes against the carpet that is on the side of the center console. I don't know why they designed it to be that close to the carpet. Looks like it could stick if something got between the carpet and the pedal.
Has anyone else noticed this?
Lawyers Ask Court To Stop Toyota From Fixing Cars
Their complaint “asks the Court to enjoin Toyota from implementing any fixes in the accelerator pedals of the subject vehicles without approval from the NHTSA.” To those who are not familiar with a strange language called Legalese, “enjoin” means “issue an injunction,” or, in even plainer English, “order someone to stop doing something.”
:lemon: :lemon: :lemon: :lemon: :lemon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnFp2yLBnNQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnFp2yLBnNQ
This below video is great - done by Consumer Reports Auto Engineer on auto comparison between a Toyota and VW - HOW TO STOP YOUR TOYOTA. I did like the VW demonstration that has brake override system so vehicle can always be stopped. I do not personally like VW autos, but did like how brake override system works, and how it appears to be great safety device for any possible problems with unexplained accleration problems. AS MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL I FEEL THIS IS MUST WATCH FOR ALL OF US.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/video-hub/cars/safety/how-to-stop-your-car-du- ring-sudden-acceleration/17188412001/48234862001/
Toyota is not the only auto manufacturer that has higher complaints than other manufacturers. But their complaints do seem higher than other auto manufacturers per government statistics. Since I own a 2006 RAV4, I am very interested about the issues and my own safety. My vehicle is not among the recalls, but have had intermittant minor unexplained increases of aceleration incidents - all could be controlled though. I am not sure my vehicle issues are related, but feel I must stay informed and be knowledgeable for my own safety. Presently I have no intention of trading my vehicle in. But I can not honestly say my position will not change if problems increase and/or cannot be taken care of.
Good luck to everyone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHotbtd7HJA&feature=related
Until that time comes any vehicle of asian manufacture that uses the same parts and firmware design source (NipponDenso/Denso US) as Toyota/etc will remain "suspect".
The way Denso has been known to operate in the past not even Toyota may ever know what the problem was/is, nor the FIX. I would imagine the fix will come as a "reflash" with a public announcement that the "reflash" will be to facilitate a failsafe. Failsafe will be to drive the throttle plate to idle when the brake is used but also "buried" in the reflash will be a true fix for the firmware problem that is the root cause of these current episodes.
Does Boeing get to look at, certify, the firmware source code from a parts vendor..?? Possibly....
But I rather doubt that Toyota/etc has access to NipponDenso/Denso US firmware source code, and less likely certification ability. Toyota/etc probably doesn't even have the talent required for firmware source code validation/certification even given access.
Then there remains the question of anomalous behavior, as yet undiscovered anomalous behavior, possibly, of the microprocessor, computing engine, and surrounding/supporting hardware. Anomalous behavior just random enough to be almost, if not altogether, untraceable.
I applaud you for your objective comments and your apparent attention for screening blog comments.
link title
Click on the left to see claims from all sorts of manufacturers :surprise:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/exclusive-ttac-takes-apart-both-toyota-gas-peda- l-assemblies-denso-unit-looks-cheaper-rumored-to-be-recalled-too/
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And I'm quite sure we are no alone in this matter.
So I unplugged it for 10-15 minutes. Apparently on a complete restart it bootstrapped the right program into place and the Whirlpool Cabrio operates just fine--until the next time it decides to get lost when a wash cycle is cancelled.
The parallel is that computers are programmed by someone. Despite all the best checks, hopes, prayers over the binary coding, things go wrong. A PC can be rebooted. A washing machine computer required unplugging to drain the memory (little humor there, "drain"). But a car's computer may have a quirk that only occurs on a certain input at a certain conditions within the processor and motherboard. Those are hard to find.
When car computers have a quirk, it is a major danger. A consistent comment in the many reports in various places is that when the car was turned off, everything was back to normal on restart. To me that says not mats in all cases, that says not sticking gas pedal in all cases, but says there's another problem in some cases--scientfic method at work. So various hypotheses can be posited and tested carefully with only one variable changed to allow a conclusion.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I own an '07 Prius. For about the first 15-20,000 miles the car always shut down immediately upon depressing the power button. Since then, the engine frequently does not shut down on the first push, and my car will move forward if I take my foot off the brake. I have to push the power button a second time to stop the engine.
The dealer could find nothing wrong and told me the problem was I should be pushing the "Park" button before pushing the Power button to turn the car off. (It says nothing about doing that in the manual.)
I wrote to Toyota, and to my dealer, explaining I was concerned that a computer software or hardware malfunction was the cause of the problem with my Prius. They reassured me there was no danger.
My wife and I continue to drive our car, and I'm careful to be sure the engine has actually stopped before I take my foot off the brake. However, I'm now concerned that the minor problem I'm experiencing could progress into something much more dangerous.
I sure would like to know why my car refuses to turn off with one push of the power button, as it did when I first bought it.
imid...the more I hear about the accelerator "shim" fix, the less I'm convinced that it will solve the issue. While I hope it does. I'm not confident that it actually will.
I also wonder if the safety laws and review procedures in Japan are less stringent than they are in the U.S.? Perhaps that explains why the recall doesn't affect Japan, but does affect other parts of the world where these vehicles are sold.
I am not sure of why this feature was not already a standard feature for Toyota and some of the other auto manufacturers. I do see some manufacturers already have this feature and personally assume those manufacturers have it for safety reasons, PR for decreasing complaint issues, etc. My personal assumption for not having would be system development, capatibility issues, issue of patent?, etc. Just not sure, and am only guessing. The actual computer flashing to install this computer brake override system doesn't take long, and once setup would be minimal cost/possibly no cost since Toyota owns the computer flashes already. But maybe Toyota charges each individual dealer for these flashes? Difficult to understand this possible cost, as Toyota would not be selling to nonaffiliated outside repair service center. .
Please note my personal main concern about these possible unexplained acceleration complaints involve safety issues. I am medical professional so this will always be my major concern. Incidents could cause minor to serious accidents that could/possibly cause injury/possible minor to severe bodily harm/injury and possibly even death. And then you look at possible vehicle damage, and driving record implications, auto insurance implications, etc.. It appears to me this complaint carries much high risk for people safety risks than some other lodged complaints
Incident complants do seem small when compared to number of vehicles sold, but government statistics do reveal complaints continue to be lodged over the years. These statistics do not include complaints lodged with the dealership though. Then you must also consider the number of people that do not lodge complaints. How many were valid? Etc.
Again I apologize I did not include this additional information also. Since Toyota has had good reliability reputation I hope they will now have this isssue addressed. I still would have liked to have seen them be more proactive in the PR department addressing this negtive publicity. But seems maybe they are now.
Personally I would like to see pro-brake override system, or equivalent on all autos/trucks/etc. Alos personally my nonprofessional opinion seems to lead me to possible multifaceted cause/s. Could pedal be improved? Maybe/sure, as most designs can always be improved, but I do have difficulty placing full blame on pedal. Scope of complaints lodged with governemnt safety agency over the years has many incidents that pedal/floor mats do not appear to be the cause/or be a sole factor. Our automobiles are now loaded with computerized systems and with that we must/should have fail safe systems installed, if for safety reasons alone. Intermittant bugs, glitzes, in computer software are difficult to find. Many/some malfunctions are not recorded in memory, and/or depends upon the actual program memory functions and retention of that information. Brake override systems, or equivalent would sure help overcome these intermittant bus/glitzes.
Yeah, Toytoa will now have brake override systems in future! Guess those of you with recall models must check if you will get these flashes into your vehicle. Good luck, and hope all of your issues/questions will be taken care of at your dealerships to your satisfaction. Sadly for me, I do not have one of the recall models, Sure wish I did. But still am happy for those of you that do.
I liked this demonstration. I am not sure who this gentleman was, but I thought he seemed to be fair, and not derogatory towards Toyta.
Many thanks for sending this information along to me.
Sorry I sent wrong bookmarked video.
Anecdotal tales do not replace evidence.
There are more anecdotal tales of drivers pushing the gas when they thought they were pushing on the brake pedal. That's not evidence either if we're talking about hard facts and science..
If the cars are faulty, why haven't there been more problems? Millions and millions of cars - Toyotas - and only a few documented cases. The buggiest thing out there are human beings. Right? The nut behind the wheel. Sort of like computer problems, isn't it? The end user is often the problem.
I wonder whatever happened to my Leading Edge Model D with the ram upgraded to 640k, 2 x 5.25" floppies and no hard drive? Those were the days. Or the old CPM machines? Or my first wife. BWAAAHAHAHA.
John
A true WOT/brake bypass FAILSAFE would, of design necessaty, not use the existing control computer. A simple relay circuit to open the EFI circuit would be a more proper failsafe. Or go ahead and use the "reflash" technique but provide a separate backup failsafe that only kicks in if the engine doesn't drop to idle RPM with a few hundred milliseconds of brake application.
The override should physically close off the fuel-line via a valve, or physically disconnects the battery. No fuel, no spark, no go.
Gone just like my $10,000 TRS 80 with five 8" floppy drives. And my $4500 HP with 292k of ram and separate floppy drive. Long before I could afford a 10 mgbyte hard drive. I have also spent hours loading old computers with paper tape code or one instruction at a time with toggle switches. Novatel and DEC all names from the past. Ferrite magnetic donut memory was my favorite to trouble shoot. Kids today have no idea.
My company has number of customer companies that have a complete design package in escrow. The escrow package connot be opened except under certain specific situations.
In your case, even if the customer has full and complete access to your company's source code, what are the chances that they have the talent onboard to understand the sources to the level necessary fro modification and recompiling..?
And operational firmware trouble-shooting, in the case at hand..??
Not possible.
I have very little doubt that Toyota/etc are relying, FULLY relying, on NipponDenso/Denso US, for that task.
If you take a look at the history of vehicles that have been recalled, you will always see that a recall of hundreds of thousands or more of vehicles, is based on a relatively small number of the first defects found. Consider a bell-curve distribution where the x-axis is time or miles-driven. They aren't all going to occur at the same time. And you certainly don't want to wait to have the recall after a majority have failed.
I think we can all assume that Toyota would never incur the expense and reputation-damage that it has, if they didn't think they had a serious problem.
You couldn't have had much computer experience, hardware or software, and ask that question.
Each and every one of those 737 hydraulic servo valves, rudder control valves, was of flawed design. It was only after the third incident/crash, out of how many flights, that Boeing had enough evidence to know where to begin looking.
I spoke with my son who develops/does engineering auto software. He too felt is more a multifaceted problem. Appears Toyota installing brake override system will eliminate most of the possible causes and complaints. At lease brakes will take priority over acceleration. Computer glitzes would be overcome.
Thanks for this new information. I appreciate.
Doubt cast on Toyota's decision to blame sudden acceleration on gas pedal defect
Toyota Motor Corp.'s decision to blame its widening sudden-acceleration problem on a gas pedal defect came under attack Friday, with the pedal manufacturer flatly denying that its products were at fault.
Federal vehicle safety records reviewed by The Times also cast doubt on Toyota's claims that sticky gas pedals were a significant factor in the growing reports of runaway vehicles. Of more than 2,000 motorist complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyota and Lexus vehicles over the last decade, just 5% blamed a sticking gas pedal, the analysis found.
What's more, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has conducted eight investigations into sudden-acceleration problems in Toyota vehicles over the last seven years, none of which identified a sticking pedal as a potential cause.
"The way the sudden-acceleration problems are occurring in reported incidents doesn't comport with how this sticky pedal is described," said Sean Kane, president of Safety Research & Strategies, a Rehoboth, Mass., auto safety consulting firm. "We know this recall is a red herring.
My concern exactly. If the computer were the part at fault, it wouldn't react to a brake pedal depressed sensor and interrupt an acceleration command.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
karen@edmunds.com
We are specifically looking for someone in NY at the moment.
ABC News asked Lentz if it was true that Toyota had been covering up problems with runaway acceleration in its vehicles for years. Government documents show that Toyota first fielded reports of "runaway Toyotas" in March 2007.
Lentz responded by saying, "Right now, what's important is we're here to get the news out to our customers."
Toyota Cover-up?
Asked again to answer allegations of a cover-up, Lentz stated flatly, "There is no cover-up."
"How long have you known about this problem of the runaway cars," asked ABC News, "not just the sticky gas pedals?"
sometimes, it's not what you know, it's who you know.
Lentz was very evasive when questioned by ABC's news guy. In fact, he was brusque in his shaking his hand to try to terminate the questions. Lentz's eyes reacted improperly when answering questions about the possibility of other electronic problems.
ABC Nightly News link
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Toyota has sure been confusing about these issues. Hopefully their fix won't be as messed up as their handling of the issues. I thought there was going to be a brake override from the original November info, but I guess not. So basically, all of us who recently bought a Camry will have an inferior product than those that start rolling off the line in a few weeks.That doesn't seem right. If they are going to change the computer settings and put a brake override on new production, they should do the same thing for all year vehicles involved in this problem.
Fortune has an article that indicates for some unknown reason Toyota put in a different spec accelerator when it contracted with CTS than what is being procured from Denso for their home market. So I guess they decided their Japanese customers were more important than their American buyers since the North American plants apparently got the cost cutting inferior design? Fortune critizes that maybe Toyota took cost cutting too far, too fast and also notes that Toyota seems to have mishandled this whole mess. You can read the Fortune article in CNN.com. After reading it, I became a little more upset about this and the way the US and Canada were apparently given a less robust part. Honestly, that's a bit insulting to their large North American market isn't it?
So far I have not seen any pictures of CTS units that are supposedly defective. CTS claims there are none. And Toyota is just going along half cocked. I am sure they are hoping to get this behind them as soon as possible. My guess, they have not pinpointed the real culprit. Some kind of brake over-ride installed on all models going back to when they started DBW would be the best way to rebuild confidence.
I totally agree, but have to wonder if they will give precedence to their Japanese customers over North America? As for brass versus plastic, it would seem it should be better, but its the part with the sticking problem and it appears to have been limited to facilities outside of Japan? After reading the Fortune article, I have to wonder if the Denso part was the problem child, would they then retrofit their home market with brake override? I can't help but think after reading that Fortune article that Toyota may be shortchanging the US and Canada. If the situation is serious enough that they are going to put brake override in new production when they start the lines back up, shouldn't the already sold products of the same generation get the same treatment? It doesn't seem right not to do this.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=429321
As such, Denso or CTS would be requested by Toyota to show firmware/software source code. Toyota would pay them for the licensing to test, use, and co-develop, if appropriate.
In fairness, I'm making an assumption that they're adopting behavior with their internal engineering staffs and vendors, as they do with other avenues of technology they use or buy.
Ford probably does the most as far as overseeing and requesting a "peek" into software/firmware. GM is a close 2nd.
I know both Denso and CTS make components for other car makers. So far, no issues with anyone but Toyota. And, since there have been other reports regarding the same unintended acceleration issues with the Lexus brand, regardless of parts from Denso, CTS, whether built in the U.S., or Japan, this is an issue that is going to take more than just cursory mechanical fixes. This could be a coding process issue. It could be an electrical control issue. I think the one thing it isn't, is the part they've purportedly found a fix for.
I think they're still hunting for the root cause, too. This fix is just an interim step (and perhaps a PR move).
Somehow I see:
(1)Toyota fixing pedal
(2)Toyota installing brake override systems all new vehicles starting 2011+recalls maybe?
(3)Toyota sees decrease of complaints in future
(4)Toyota claims pedal replacement success
(5)Owners happy-safe - brake override systems cause decrease complaints - brakes take priority over acceleration - decreased dangerous safety risks unexplained increased acceleration situations-
(6)Brake override system solution-good for both Toyota & owners
(7)FINALLY HUMAN SAFETY ADDRESSED. With this also comes decreased risk any costs of needed medical care, vehicle damage repairs, increase auto insurance, lack of employment/salary due injury from accident, effects on DMV driving record
H-mmmm. Just still not convinced Toyota was totally truthful and may have been withholding information. Government safety administration interview implied information not given freely. Forget how he phrased it - something like drip, drip, drip, drip. Toyota has been fined in past by government safety administration for this not telling all and for withholding information. I forget the year though..
But still quite happy - finally human safety addressed for some owners!!! Safety is a huge issue for me. Wish brake override system would be installed for ALL owners Toyotas that have electronic throttles too.
I hope Toyota can overcome this.
My guess is it will be a one visit stop too. My son told me flashing in brake override system doesn't take long at all. Not sure if owners will get new pedal assembly or if will be rebult.