The Current State of the US Auto Market

robr2 · October 2013

Not the Brother HL-2270-DW laser printer...Cartridge is long lasting for about 6 months at $45.

That's a heavy workload if it's a home printer.

I'm actually looking for a color laser and am browsing craigslist.

stever · October 2013

There's a refurb for $35 right now - cheaper than ink and it won't dry up.

So, do you want two printers or would you rather buy a tank of gas?

xrunner2 · October 2013

Like decent running shoes costing over $100 and maybe made for $10 parts and labor in China. Maybe Congress could do something.

busiris · October 2013

".... Maybe Congress could do something."

Oh, man, that's a riot!

I'm still laughing!!!!

js06gv · October 2013

I had my 2005 Avalanche, purchased new, until March of this year. Great vehicle and I loved it. I would've replaced it with another but by 2013 the truck was at the end of its life cycle and really hadn't been updated since 2007. I moved over to Ford and bought a 2013 F-150 King Ranch that is roomier, more powerful, and IMO has a much nicer interior with advanced electronics when compared to a 2013 Av. At the same time, it lacks the midgate technology (mine never leaked) and can't touch the ride of an Av. The Av is really a Suburban with a bed carved out of the cargo area, and when comparing the ride of a unit body to a traditional truck with separate bed and body the difference is amazing. I also miss the side bed compartment storage and 3-piece bed cover, although I can easily add a cover to the Ford as soon as I can part with $600-800 bucks.

All Avalanches were made in Mexico. That plant is being phased out, so no new Avs based on the new 2014 truck platform. Too bad, as I most definitely would've been a buyer. As for engines, almost all were 5.3L. Mine had 295 hp. There were a couple of years when the second generation came out with an optional 6.0, but oddly very few buyers opted for it so the option was killed. The first gen Av was also available in a 2500 3/4 ton model with the 8.1L, but those were very rare.

uplanderguy · October 2013

Thanks for the Avalanche info; appreciated.

circlew · October 2013

Excellent info. Why didn't you wait for the new Siverado?

Congrats on the F-150!

js06gv · October 2013

It really came down to money. I'd seen pics of the new GM trucks and liked them, but the F-150 has been around for awhile and even though it was updated some for 2013, I still scored $10,200 off list. No way I would've been able to do as well on a 2014 GM. it also irks me that I've got over $7,000 in GM dollars to spend, but am typically limited to $1,500-2000 per truck purchase. Every once in awhile they run a promotion that lets you use more, but I haven't seen that in years. I think the prior version of the card was better in this regard, but if you got one after a certain date you don't get a choice.

I used to buy all GM and continue to like many of its products. Lately, I've been swayed more toward Ford. That started in late 2010, when I set out to surprise my wife with a new Camaro. Loved it from the outside, but the Fisher Price interior was a total turnoff. Great driver though. Ford had just reintroduced the 5.0 in the Mustang, so decided to take a look. The exterior styling was a bit dated, but overall the GT was a better package and the interior was like a Lexus compared to the Camaro. The 5.0 engine is a beast, and a slightly de tuned version of the same Mustang motor sits under the hood of my truck.

Other vehicles in the stable are a 2007 Hyundai Santa Fe (wife's former car and goes to my daughter next month when she turns 16) and a 2000 Trans Am WS6 with 40K on it (my "baby" and a keeper). I'd buy another Hyundai in a heartbeat and probably will someday. I know it's still hard for some to get past 1986 and the automaker's pitiful lineup of Excels, but the Korean makes are extremely competitive and here to stay. At 68K, ours has been great. Not without flaws, but all warranty covered and I haven't dropped a dime into this thing other than maintenance.

circlew · October 2013

Thanks for the info. Looks like we have similarities on GM. Used to buy GM exclusively until my disaster of a lemon Yukon.

I have said all along GM's pricing is flawed. Perhaps they will change since their market share is flat-lined.

Agree on the Koreans. I have the'11 Optima SX. No issues.

xrunner2 · October 2013

Like a high tax on U.S. branded goods manufactured in countries like China and brought into the U.S. by U.S. companies.

mcdawgg · October 2013

Agree, and I also agree with what you predicted the responses would be! I also predicted that some would be celebrating the recall - and I was right!

uplanderguy · October 2013

"Of course, if there's a problem with a vehicle then the quantity recalled (if the problem affects them all) is a function of the number sold. So of course the maker with the most sales of the model will have more recalls."

If it were only that simple.

Of course, it's also a function of how long it takes the manufacturer to realize, and admit, that there is a problem.

uplanderguy · October 2013

"Agree, and I also agree with what you predicted the responses would be! I also predicted that some would be celebrating the recall - and I was right! "

Like that's never been done here for a D3 recall. I can tell you that has been done as an initiating comment, far more than Japanese recalls have been done as an initiating comment. I believe an honest assessment by anyone reading these forums for a long time would concur.

I think if we were all being honest, we know that a recall is worse for the manufacturer, the more vehicles it involves.

tlong · October 2013

I think if we were all being honest, we know that a recall is worse for the manufacturer, the more vehicles it involves.

Agreed that a recall is bad for a manufacturer, at least in the short term, since it costs money. But over the longer haul, honesty and addressing any problems proactively is a plus.

How much admiration did you have for Chrysler recently when they didn't want to recall a problem cited by the US government? That really makes me want to run out and buy their products....not.

uplanderguy · October 2013

No admiration, but I can't say it was any worse than Toyota's legendary recall stonewalling. It's not OK to knock one and let the other sail by, I do think (agree) with that.

I do think--back to the original comments--it's rather lame to respond to a current, 800K recall with a four-month old one that is much, much, much smaller. And that is precisely what happened here.

tlong · October 2013

No admiration, but I can't say it was any worse than Toyota's legendary recall stonewalling. It's not OK to knock one and let the other sail by, I do think (agree) with that.

Agreed - I have no desire to buy any Toyota. But I still admire them for their long record of high reliability.

uplanderguy · October 2013

And speaking of 'celebrating a recall', I think you've posted here long enough to know that people here actually wish against D3's success/celebrate their failures. As an American, that is mind-blowing to me.

stever · October 2013

The experts are all over the map.

Automakers riding high, but can they avoid a blowout? (The Tennessean)

2014 predictions:

Edmunds - 16.4 million sales
Toyota - dropping numbers
Nissan - rising numbers
Dealers - optimistic
TrueCar - also predicting 16.4 million
Jeremy Anwyl (recently retired Edmunds vice-chair) - slowing down
Kelley - not so optimistic, still too much capacity

marion_blair · October 2013

I'm a loyal Chevy owner for years. I own a 2002 Yukon which is a gem, a 2010 Equinox which is worst than the Olds Diesel I owned in the 70's. and a 2013 Silerado which the jury is still out on. My theory is that the GM works don't really give sh___t since they know their jobs are secure regardless of what junk they put out. I hope my theory is wrong but the Equinox is not reassuring me. The only vehicle I've ever owned that didn't need to go back to the dealer was a Toyota.

GM still owes the government a butt load of money which will never be paid back. Ford is the only one that didn't take a freebie from Obama. I don't know why I remain loyal to Chevy, I guess I was hoping they were what they once was.

The Equinox is a lemon, Engine issues including fuel pump, timing chain, fuel in the oil, transmission clutches replaced, etc.... The next time this car goes in the shop, I'll take my losses and write off Chevy. The dealer's help is the only reason I'm still with Chevy.

stickguy · October 2013

"It seems ironic that Detroit's season was ended by a Japanese guy" (the Red Sox relief pitcher).

stickguy · October 2013

Sometimes, you do get a lemon. But, not sure I could blame it on uncaring assembly line workers. Sounds like you had issues with many different components, so that would be a lot of different people on the line. Plus, engines are assembled in their own place, and those people sure care.

so, like winning the lottery (but in a bad way) sometimes you "beat the odds". Me, I would just bite the bullet and trade it in, assuming I could afford it.

uplanderguy · October 2013

I have indeed heard that on the four-cylinder Equinox and Terrain, 2010 model year, they have reduced the oil life monitor to read a change at 5K miles instead of about 7 or 7,500. I'm so paranoid old skool about oil changes, I don't ever go beyond 4K and that's if I'm too busy to get it in beforehand.

Your issues are a drag, no questions or excuses about it. I'm sorry they don't reflect my experiences, but I have indeed read that you're not alone.

My financial guy's 2010 Camry uses more than a quart of oil between 3K changes and he is getting worried as well.

At least you should have had no out-of-pocket repairs. My honest belief is that if you ask your Service Manager, your vehicle was repaired with the revised parts of later iterations. That is generally the case. Looks like you'd have two years of powertrain warranty left.

tlong · October 2013

And speaking of 'celebrating a recall', I think you've posted here long enough to know that people here actually wish against D3's success/celebrate their failures. As an American, that is mind-blowing to me.

While I've never owned GM, I've had friends who have. It's understandable that when somebody invests a huge amount of money in a product that turns out to be a turd, that people would have animosity toward such company that made a product. I've certainly felt that way about other non-auto companies before where I've felt screwed by some product or service.

For GM, I wish for their success - I want to see massive change and the old guard OUT, so that they have a chance to be truly reinvented and better. That's why, while some of that has occurred, many of us are doubtful that it has been enough. We want to be able to admire GM the way we can admire BMW or Tesla or Apple. When (and if) GM is a brand that people all over the world covet, then you will know that they have succeeded. A long, long way to go...

uplanderguy · October 2013

I'm not really interested in Tesla, but there's some not-so-nice things been written about BMW also, reliability-wise.

I've known personally, two people who have owned BMW's. Not a big sample, but one was my upwardly-mobile female boss--she had a 3-series that she liked but had a sunroof issue when it was new--and the other bought a new 5-series (probably early '90's) that needed a completely new engine at 86K miles, and with religious oil changes. He was pretty mad.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2013

I don't think the way Apple handled some of its misfires are particularly worthy of admiration.

tlong · October 2013

Ok, but the point was addressing your original comment - you couldn't understand why some people wish against the success of "American companies". For a lot of people, when being wronged it isn't the nation of the company involved at all - it's just THAT company - regardless of their origin. Good experiences = high brand loyalty. Bad experiences = no loyalty, but animosity and wishes for failure.

When any company treats its customers like crap (through either poor service or poor products), customers wish for their failure. Most people don't want to see poor companies continue to succeed in spite of their continued poor products or services. I can name a couple of industries in the US that consistently rate near the bottom of customer opinions (phone company cough*cough; big bank cough*cough), but that's off topic in this forum.

tlong · October 2013

I've known personally, two people who have owned BMW's.

Oh, and regarding this... it doesn't really matter my or your or our friends' experiences... what matters is the aggregate, average experiences of thousands or millions of customers. There's a reason that some companies have good reputations and some don't, regardless of any individual experience. If a reputation contradicts our own experiences, we still should be able to understand that there is probably a rational reason why that reputation exists.

tlong · October 2013

I don't think the way Apple handled some of its misfires are particularly worthy of admiration.

I wonder which misfires you are speaking of?

While Apple has certainly made mistakes (like Toyota or Honda), you have to compare them to their competition. Has Microsoft been better? Lol.

Apple is currently the world's most valuable brand. They consistently rank as having the most reliable computers. They command high prices and have high brand loyalty. Their stores are the most productive in the world. They're doing a lot of things right.

uplanderguy · October 2013

I guess I care more when someone I know well has a crappy experience. As has been discussed here ad nauseum, there is sample error involved in some of CR's info. That's OK and in fact unavoidable; I just wish they'd say that.

I just know that for what I paid, I have a very satisfactory history with my Chevrolets and my service department. Why screw around with that?

Oops, don't answer. I don't tell anyone why their purchase decisions are dumb and I don't appreciate anyone telling me, although it's happened numerous times here.

Personally, I guess because I'm an auditor, I dislike when factually incorrect stuff gets posted here...and that has happened a lot. Opinions are opinions of course, and we know the line about everybody having one.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2013

Oh, their handling of the iPhone defects, (blaming the customer) their PR mess with foreign labor practices (some of which were BS reporting, but some of which were valid), their price-gouging. They're still 200 points off their highwater mark stock price. Good company though---just sayin', all companies have their problems.

andre1969 · October 2013

They're still 200 points off their highwater mark stock price. Good company though---just sayin', all companies have their problems.

Yeah, but that ~$730 peak was a bubble that lasted about 15 minutes. I think it's going for around $510 now. Not that I care...I paid about $43 or so for most of mine...

tlong · October 2013

Personally, I guess because I'm an auditor, I dislike when factually incorrect stuff gets posted here...and that has happened a lot. Opinions are opinions of course, and we know the line about everybody having one.

I'm glad you've had good experiences with your vehicles.

It doesn't really matter if CR is flawed or not - I suspect that the bulk of how well a company does isn't a result of CR -- it's the result of the statistical experiences of all its customers, regardless of a few whose experiences are better or worse than the average.

As far as inaccuracies, I believe it was you who at one point called for balance, but then when asked why you don't compliment some of the foreign makes, explained that you also have an agenda. So inaccuracies are all over the place. Please correct me if I have made any mistakes here.

tlong · October 2013

I have a bit of Apple left that I bought in 2005. Wish I had kept more of it, but I still made quite a bit on it.

andre1969 · October 2013

I have a bit of Apple left that I bought in 2005. Wish I had kept more of it, but I still made quite a bit on it.

That was when I originally bought, early 2005. It was going for around $86-88, but did a 2:1 split soon after I bought it. As the markets have fluctuated, I've bought more, and sold some off, so my cost basis isn't quite that sweet looking anymore. But, I've done okay.

I think the dividend it pays now is around $12.20 per share, annualized. So, off of that original $43-44/share cost basis, that's a pretty sweet return!

I took a chance and bought a little GM stock about a month ago. Haven't paid much attention to it, but I think at this point it's broken even, maybe made a buck or two.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2013

I think Ford is a good buy at 17.

robr2 · October 2013

Ford's been $15-17 for the past 18 months or so.

I bought GM at various times between $20 and $25 last fall - I've been pretty happy.

ohenryx · October 2013

I can name a couple of industries in the US that consistently rate near the bottom of customer opinions (phone company cough*cough; big bank cough*cough)

Its a matter of record that ComCast has been voted worst company in America more than once. No automaker has ever been able to alienate as many of their customers.

Back in the day I used to drive fast Mopars. Then I had a couple of bad experiences with new Dodges, and swore off. These days the company has changed hands so many times that the present company has almost no connection with the old Chrysler. This last time around, I drove a new Dodge pickup and rather liked it. But the price was so much higher than Chevy or Ford that there was simply no way I was buying one.

uplanderguy · October 2013

"Inaccuracies" means posting factually incorrect things. Opinion is something else entirely. The foreign makers don't need my help. Same as, why I like Carly Simon over Madonna or Lady Gaga. Those two don't need additional fawning opinions. I have repeatedly posted that I liked the looks of second-series Maximas and 2002 Altimas.

The types of things I'm talking about, that have been pretty rampant here, are
posts like this:

1) "New Corvette Recall" that is three years old
2) "GM Doesn't Honor Warranties After the Bankruptcy"
3) "Camaro Had a Lousy Launch" (actually had a strong launch)
4) "Sonic is built in Korea"

..are four that come to my mind without even scratching my head.

Those are the types of goofs you have never seen me make about foreign brands....ever.

That's all I'm sayin'.

dieselone · October 2013

"You've got to admit though, mechanically, there is no reason an Avalanche would be different than a Silverado, Tahoe, or Suburban. The difference is the 'gateway', but really, how much difference could that make in reliability? (I admit that the mags said it was a neat convenience thing, though I didn't like the looks of the Avalanche). "

I know this is beating a dead horse, but for curiosity sake, I looked up the CR results on a Silverado vs. Avalanche and while there are differences in reliability ratings, they're not far off in general.

I think the biggest difference is with how each vehicle is used and the type of people that use them. So I'd expect some differences in reliability considering they are different vehicles built in different plants and used in different ways (IMO). While the Silverado and Avalanche use basically the same powertrain, the Silverado has higher payload and tow ratings, and I'd bet the average Silverado sees a bit more heavy work than an Avalanche sees.

Plus looking at the CR reviews, the Avalanche scored higher than the Silverado due to ride, handling, utility, and overall design, not because of reliability.

As previously mentioned, a full body will be a lot smoother vs. separate cab/bed on a full frame in general. Plus the Avalanche having the same coil spring rear suspension also helps ride quality and handling.

stever · October 2013

I'd bet the average Silverado sees a bit more heavy work than an Avalanche sees.

It would be fun to see some stats about that. My nephew would mess up the curve though. He's about worn out his Avalanche (pushing 300k). He did a lot of contractor work in it in a lot of the country, not to mention playing hard on the weekends in it. Did a little towing with it too.

He's going to miss his and since he's changed jobs (now working for an auto supplier - how topical, lol), he may just downsize a good bit for better mpg.

dieselone · October 2013

"It would be fun to see some stats about that."

No doubt some Avalanches have been worked to death, but considering a Silverado is far more likely to see contractor/construction duty overall. Plus a Silverado can/could be equipped to handle more payload and towing (particularly in 1/2 ton config).

circlew · October 2013

3) "Camaro Had a Lousy Launch" (actually had a strong launch)

Sales yes. Quality "Lousy".

Let's look at the launch of the 2010 Camaro from the NEW GM: (July 2009)

In January, GM delayed Camaro production for one month, pushing back the start of production at its Oshawa, Ontario, Canada, assembly site from February 16 to March 16 as engineers grappled with quality-control and supplier issues.

From there, the Camaro has endured a litany of confirmed and anecdotal quality problems perhaps most entertainingly characterized by an unintentionally humorous list posted at Camaro5.com to help potential new owners scour their Camaro for quality issues reported by other buyers.

The lengthy  and sometimes hilarious  checklist includes such worrying entries as loose oil-pan bolts and oil-cooler leaks; "mismatched paint on parts of the vehicle;" hoods that won't unlatch, intermittent air-conditioning operation; loose emblems and interior trim pieces and misaligned and poorly fitting body panels.

Inside Line says: The entire checklist of 65 items the forum suggests new owners inspect before taking Camaro delivery can be found on the Web site's forum.  Bill Visnic, Senior Editor, Edmunds' AutoObersver.com

uplanderguy · October 2013

By your account, the new Focus and Fusion could be said to have had lousy launches.

All, including the Camaro, had strong sales out of the box.

Remember how you would routinely post one month at a time, when Mustang would outsell Camaro, and reiterate the Camaro's "lousy launch"? It wasn't long at all that the Camaro was outselling the Mustang, even with one fewer body style.

The '13 Malibu had what insiders would call a 'lousy launch'--and I concur.

'Lousy launch', in the industry, means poor sales of a major product that was expected to sell much better. Lee Iacocca called the '82 J-cars and the '83 A-cars from GM a "lousy launch", and I agree there too.

Gee, per CR, a 2010 Camaro has the same overall reliability as the same-year Kia Optima. We know that has to be gospel.

Actually, kidding aside, how can one link V6's and V8's together in a reliability chart, is a mystery to me.

tlong · October 2013

Actually, kidding aside, how can one link V6's and V8's together in a reliability chart, is a mystery to me.

Well, you just average them together...

uplanderguy · October 2013

Huh?

But I'm supposed to believe that there are differences, mechanically, in a Silverado and Avalanche which can have the same engines?

So one Camaro engine might be much-worse-than-average, and the other better-than-average, but it's OK to not report that difference?

Talk about different owners--between a V6 base Camaro and an SS (or higher-performance) model...

tlong · October 2013

Huh?

Well, I was joking a bit.

But I'm supposed to believe that there are differences, mechanically, in a Silverado and Avalanche which can have the same engines?

I think the point is that a vehicle is much more than the engine. I'd bet over 50% of the problems in vehicles are NOT engine related. Lots of electrical glitches. Lots of body and trim issues. And then there's transmissions, too. Should we separate vehicles by transmission? How about by interior trim? Obviously there is some judgement involved - no process would be perfect.

There are also body style differences. In a car, what about hatch versus 4-door versus coupe? What about sport suspensions? There could be lots of problems with the hatchback struts that don't exist in a sedan. Etc.

Just pointing out that separating by engines (or not) assumes a big difference there that must be important - whereas NOT separating by all of those other factors I mentioned assumes they aren't important, which of course may not be the case, either.

uplanderguy · October 2013

Actually, CR used to differentiate by transmission.

Engine and trans would have significantly more effect on reliability than interior trim and hatch struts.

ateixeira · October 2013

Ford is the only one that didn't take a freebie from Obama

Wrong, Bush signed the auto bail out:

http://youtu.be/1N5kRVfmMoE

xrunner2 · October 2013

Ford did not need a bail out by the U.S. Government.

ateixeira · October 2013

He was wrong about the President who signed the bill, not the automaker who accepted the bailout.

The Current State of the US Auto Market

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