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BMW is still the benchmark for now. However, they are under intense pressure. Keep in mind that the G35 is Infiniti's first real attempt at dethroning the 3 series. Future generations are only going to get better in driving precision and refinement. Likewise, I fully expect the next Lexus IS to be greatly improved over the current generation. And if Mercedes can make a similar leap with the next C class as they did with the new SLK, BMW will continue to face ever increasing competition. The fact that the Euro is killing the dollar does not bode well for BMW's profits in the USA in the short term either. Lexus and Infiniti can offer more car for the money simply because of the current exchange rates. BMW is going to have to be at their best if they are to continue to be the benchmark in this class in the future. Any stumbles such as unwanted I-drive, botched interior or exterior styling, pricing that is too high or a ride that is too rough due to standard run-flat tires could be all that Lexus needs to pass BMW if they come out with a perfectly executed IS350.
The problem with the IS is that it is like the Black Sheep of the Lexus family. Most people who want a Lexus are not looking for the kind of attributes the current IS offers.
And this is the problem! I believe Toyota is going to make the IS as large as the G35 with the "softer luxury feel" of the other Lexus models. Such an attempt will distance the IS from being serious competition to the 3 series, but improve its competition against the G35.
The previous 540i was a benchmark vehicle as well. The new one is not. Nothing ever stays the best forever. Nissan in particular is hungry for blood, and any amount of laurel resting or badge and reputation relying by BMW will set them up to lose to Infiniti.
As I said BMW is vulnerable. I myself love this vulnerability because this provides an incentive for automakers to produce much more exciting vehicles(BMW and Lexus included).
Infiniti is hungry for blood but there is not a single infiniti vehicle that can compete with a BMW. Yes Infiniti provides more luxury and toys for the money, but in terms of performance/handling---Infiniti will have to stay hungry for quite a while.
If the 545i is not the benchmark vehicle among its class, which one is the benchmark?
~alpha
A segment benchmark tends to win every comparo its in, like the 3 series. I havent seen the 545i win a single comparison. The magazines have ranked it midpack, and the 745i back of the pack.
So it CD's 10 best award that determines a benchmark? An RL the benchmark? Wow, the car won its first "Ten Best Award" from CD and now it is a benchmark! Does this mean that all the 10 cars selected as a winner by CD are all benchmarks in their segments. Does this not dilute the definition of what a benchmark really is? Is not a benchmark defined by being the best by many sources(magazines, auto journalists) and not by only one source?
My point is there really is no clear definite benchmark in the segment that exists for the BMW 545 or RL or the new and amazing Audi A6. The BMW545i may have been dethroned as the benchmark, but as a result there is no benchmark!
Still living in fantasyland aren't we? I better go trade in the cushy, soft, poor handling Fx45 for the class recall leader X5. Yeah, I think the BMW family breadwinner 325 will surely beat out the newly tweaked 298 hp G35 coupe and lesser sedan. Maybe even the Z4 will someday outhandle the S2000 and try to look half as decent.
Folks, BMW's days of class leader of this and that has been blown a hole as wide as Texas. The new Japan sport/luxury models are just getting better and better and BMW's use of heavy unreliable electronics and I-drive gimics are gonna haunt them. The new M35/45 Infiniti's are poised to strike them hard now that they are down in sales and questionable quality.
Consumer Reports latest gives them bad marks for the 5 and 7. Of course the new cheesy, overdone styling and Bungle surface flaming is a big reason for the drop in sales. The 5 series is the class benchmark for oddball and gimicky, no denying that. The old 5 was the clearly better car.
The RL is a rolling technology piece, easily the most advanced car in the class of today. C&D 10 best winner is no surprise, Honda products have made the list more than any make to date. Admire the Honda way never follow anyone, lead.
The new IS will be bigger for sure but hope they use light alloy materials all around and carbon fiber like the new Z to shave those pounds.
So now let us compare a 330 vs a G35? Are they even comparable(even if you live in fantasyland, I think the answer is obvious)
I remember all those same predictions 14 years ago.
Remember when in 1990(assuming you are an old guy like me) they predicted Lexus , Infiniti, Acura would make mincemeat out of BMW, Audi and Mercedes! Coincidentally since that time the sales of the three German Margues grew and grew and grew.
Remember in 1990 when they predicted the Acura NSX would drive Porsche out of business. Since that time Porsche has never looked better.
There are as many today as in 1990 who believe in this fantasy that the German marques will passively watch their market share be eaten away by the Japanese(as the American firms did these past 30 years)
I am willing to wager that in the next 14 years your projections will be as accurate as those 1990 projections made by similar admirers of Japanes marques.
And even when it is ATs, they still tend to have Sport Pkg. Even if 325i.
Lexus regularly screws this up. They should always have sent MT with LSD!
Lexus won overall (910) beating out Porsche (903), Cadillac (902), and BMW (900). And Lexus had 5 top Three finishers.
"Entry Luxury": Chrysler 300(2005), Acura TL, and (tie) LEXUS IS300 sedan/SportCross & Cadillac CTS.
Lexus Top 3 "winners": IS300, LS430, RX330, GX470, & LX470.
BMW's were 5 Series, 7 Series, X5, & Z4, plus Mini Cooper.
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I don't think you "wait for other makes to become available". I think that you judge what is on the market right now. And when the new IS comes out, you judge the market again. Audi, BMW, Lexus, (not sure about MB-C) are all coming out with highly revised models in 06. This should make for great competition. But I do think that Lexus will take wipe the floor with these other makes. BMW will always sell the "vaunted" 3 series, but my guess is that the IS350 will be the next car to beat - over the current G35/TL/325. And I say 325 because I'm talking 35k and under.
I'm crossing my fingers for an IS Ten Best next year. It'd be good to have a sporting Lexus up there, and make for good ad copy as well, especially if the Banglized 3-series fails.
~alpha
Thats a VERY tall order. Im not really a fan of the 325i, but the TL and especially the '05 G35x is a fantastic car. I recently spent about a half hour driving the car, and its some of the most fun I've had in any sedan that I can remember. Its worlds better than any IS300. Its got so much low end grunt that it reminds me of my old XK8, add to that a lovely, throaty exhaust note, super flat cornering, a surprisingly silent interior, and greatly improved materials quality (its not just the new aluminum, or wood, it feels like a totally different car than the cheesy '03 coupe I drove) and of course, a brilliant AWD system that lets you drive either a RWD OR AWD car with the flip of a switch. (Its got perfect weight balance too, unlike the front heavy Audi.) The IS350 is going to have to be a mighty achievement to take out G35.
The base BMW330 is about 46k and a G35 and a TL are priced between low to mid 40k in Canada and in Canadian dollars. The price discrepency is minimial when comparing their performance/handling in itself. Therefore the BMW 330 should be used as a comparison against a G35 or a TL.
When adding options and luxuries(IMO frivolous items), then a G35 abd TL looks like a bargain compared to the 330. It all depends on what your priorities are. My priorities are performance/Handling
How the pricing of the IS350 will be compared to the 3 series and how it stacks up in performance/handling will be interesting
As for the German makes yeah they've got very tight protectionist restrictions on their home market because of what the Japanese did to the domestics in the 80-90's they would've rolled over them the same. They are losing market share every year in the world's biggest, most important market here no question about that. Every sale for a Lexi, Acura, Infiniti and even Caddy now is one less for the once cozy entrenched Germans. Now back to the topic IS..
Before reading please refer to the site above.
I hope the IS350 will add more spice to the brand, since that may increase retention values for the Lexus brand itself.
The site above provides interesting facts : BMWs' have the best retention values among expensive cars(yes, even better than Lexus). Also best individual model for retention value is a MB model, not the IS or any model with the Lexus logo
Overall #4 company for retention value is VW, yes VW that horrific company that ranks last among the reliability stats.
Germany never had trade restrictions towards Japanese cars because there was no need(not in the 80's or 90's or anytime. Unlike France ,Italy or the USA during the 80's and early 90's.
"Every sale for a Lexi, Acura, Infiniti and even Caddy now is one less for the once cozy entrenched Germans."
Your statement above contradicts the facts: German marques never grew faster as the past 14 years when Lexus, Infiniti and Acura existed!
Any way I will say Aufwiedersehen(or should I say Sayonara) to this Forum until there are more facts about the IS. Then I will be able to justify my annoying postings on this board with IS350 facts.
Lexus and Infiniti sales here have consistently been mostly at US makers' expense. Acura as well, but at first also cannibalized some Honda sales!
Bobcatman, even if sales of the 3 Japanese luxury makes are hurting German car sales, its only in the US market. Acura and Infiniti dont even exist in Europe, and Lexus sales there are about 10% of what they are here. Japan needs to learn how to sell cars in Europe before BMW and Mercedes have much to worry about.
And, yes, there were other factors. Audi was killed by the bogus "unintended acceleration" debacle. The Germans were killed by the fall of the dollar against the very, very strong German mark (remember the stock market "crash" of 1987 and the S&L bailout?).
Heck, I traded in my two BMWs for two Lexus IS300s! So BMW lost my two sales.
My recollection of 1990 is different than yours. I recall people laughing at Lexus and Infiniti for daring to compare themselves to Mercedes and BMW. Audi was all but dead from CBS's coverage which later proved wrong. It was by no means certain back then that the Japanese could ever climb into the ring with the mighty Germans. Lexus priced their flagship LS at $35,000 which only served to make the public more sceptical of the product. But alas the Japanese succeeded and we are all better for it. They forced the Germans to compete and improve while they raised the bar over and over. It seems to me that we live in a great time as automobile consumers. Things get better and better because of the competition.
I'm jumping in if Lexus offers the new IS V6 with a 2.5 liter - 220 hp engine with awd! And I'd like it in the Sportcross version for the utility. Just let them take my 2002 Audi A4 Quattro in trade and it's a deal.
yes I agree. I am thankful for the competition, otherwise I would not consider buying a Lexus IS350.
It is also true that people laughed at Lexus and its Japaneses Breathen. But there was another segment of the popultation that thought the Japanese would kill off all luxury German marques. In fact even the CEO of BMW in the late 80s said that the competition with the Japanese will be tough.
I am not trying to bash the IS350 in anyway(although I find every other Lexus model a bore). I am just trying to correct some myths about the IS350's German competitors.
Riez, Im sorry but its just not that cut and dry. I have Bridgestone Blizzaks on my LS, and even then its barely passable in the snow. I drive my wife's AWD RX whenever conditions look bad.
1. As I've pointed out before, the problem with the IS is gearing. Unlike cars like the 3 Series, she won't go 60 mph in 2nd gear. Poor decision by Lexus.
2. Key to winter snow tires are getting a good snow tire and using a taller, narrower tire. Look at the 16" size recommended by Tire Rack in their IS package.
Sounds like you need a Mazdaspeed Mazda6. The TSX would be much cheaper and much less prestigious in the eyes of consumers if it didn't have the fancy badge and wasn't loaded with worthless options. If a boosted TSX is in the same league as an IS300 then the Mazda3, Mazda6, Focus, and other sporty cars are as well. Get a 4-cyl Mazda6, Mazda3 or Focus and boost it and it'll be cheaper than the TSX significantly. You also won't be lugging around 3300 pounds like the TSX either.
Right, it would be a Honda Civic. Perhaps someone wants the TSX's bullet proof interior precision, NAV etc. An Altima SE-R would make short work of any of the above mentioned cars, but it could hardly be called luxurious.
USA Acura TSX is the European Honda Accord.
USA Lexus IS300 is the European/Japanese Toyota Altezza.
Nothing wrong with the heritage of either.
Is interesting that Lexus is finally coming to Japan after all these years!
"'TSX would be much cheaper and much less prestigious in the eyes of consumers if it didn't have the fancy badge and wasn't loaded with worthless options.'
Right, it would be a Honda Civic. Perhaps someone wants the TSX's bullet proof interior precision, NAV etc."
As I pointed out, the USA Acura TSX is the European Honda Accord. Just as the USA Lexus IS is really the Toyota Altezza. There is even 2.0L engine for the Altezza.
Both Honda and Lexus have ingenuously used pre-existing platform for cost savings. Both the IS and TSX with manual transmission are great cars.
From a marketing standpoint, yes the Mazda3 isn't in the same category as the TSX. Honda is smart. Make the Accord ugly and give the TSX a "better" badge and a few exclusive features.
This is exactly why the IS300 failed IMO. The car should have been cheaper with a Toyota badge. It appeals mostly to young people who simply don't have that kind of money. The people that can afford it don't want clear taillights, the questionable interior, and a boy-racer image. This is what these cars are about to most people, image! The TSX has better looks than the Accord and arguably a better interior. Make it an Acura for the badge hounds and you have a winner. Judging by all the complaints from owners about the engine and stiff ride it's obvious they bought into the marketing.
Lexus may have failed by giving IS300 a "fancier badge", but it seems to have worked for Acura based on sales figures.
Of course anyone who doesn't research a car before buying is going to have regrets...just as some people regret the stiff ride and poor gas mileage of the IS300. They just failed to research.
~alpha