Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

boomsama · December 2004

The 2.5L in the IS could possibly a slightly reworked versin of the 2.5L in the Crown Athlete.

tsx24 · December 2004

I see your point, but Infiniti has been highly successful with the G35 and Audi with the A4 to some degree although the 1.8T is very lacking. Of course the 3-series will never stop selling, but when more competitors can beat it in luxury/price/power, and match 98% of its driving dynamics then they will take many customers away. G35 does have downfalls, as not everyone is interested in a car that large (186 inches long), materials quality is lacking, and the coupe does not have a useable back seat. I think Lexus recognizes the success of the G35, and can build on that with the next IS. Of course some people simply will only buy cars from Germany.

carman123 · December 2004

"Infiniti and various other auto firms kill BMW in terms of engine size and hp. Despite these attempts they are unable to kill the BMW 3 series as a benchmark vehicle."

BMW is still the benchmark for now. However, they are under intense pressure. Keep in mind that the G35 is Infiniti's first real attempt at dethroning the 3 series. Future generations are only going to get better in driving precision and refinement. Likewise, I fully expect the next Lexus IS to be greatly improved over the current generation. And if Mercedes can make a similar leap with the next C class as they did with the new SLK, BMW will continue to face ever increasing competition. The fact that the Euro is killing the dollar does not bode well for BMW's profits in the USA in the short term either. Lexus and Infiniti can offer more car for the money simply because of the current exchange rates. BMW is going to have to be at their best if they are to continue to be the benchmark in this class in the future. Any stumbles such as unwanted I-drive, botched interior or exterior styling, pricing that is too high or a ride that is too rough due to standard run-flat tires could be all that Lexus needs to pass BMW if they come out with a perfectly executed IS350.

dewey · December 2004

Ofcourse BMW is vulnerable, but a future Lexus IS may not be invincible either.

The problem with the IS is that it is like the Black Sheep of the Lexus family. Most people who want a Lexus are not looking for the kind of attributes the current IS offers.

And this is the problem! I believe Toyota is going to make the IS as large as the G35 with the "softer luxury feel" of the other Lexus models. Such an attempt will distance the IS from being serious competition to the 3 series, but improve its competition against the G35.

lexusguy · December 2004

"Infiniti and various other auto firms kill BMW in terms of engine size and hp. Despite these attempts they are unable to kill the BMW 3 series as a benchmark vehicle."

The previous 540i was a benchmark vehicle as well. The new one is not. Nothing ever stays the best forever. Nissan in particular is hungry for blood, and any amount of laurel resting or badge and reputation relying by BMW will set them up to lose to Infiniti.

dewey · December 2004

"The previous 540i was a benchmark vehicle as well. The new one is not"

As I said BMW is vulnerable. I myself love this vulnerability because this provides an incentive for automakers to produce much more exciting vehicles(BMW and Lexus included).

Infiniti is hungry for blood but there is not a single infiniti vehicle that can compete with a BMW. Yes Infiniti provides more luxury and toys for the money, but in terms of performance/handling---Infiniti will have to stay hungry for quite a while.

If the 545i is not the benchmark vehicle among its class, which one is the benchmark?

alpha01 · December 2004

Well, the Acura RL just won Car and Driver's Ten Best award, something the 5-series hasnt managed since its redesign despite the fact that (correct me if I'm wrong) each year of the previous iteration made the list.

~alpha

tsx24 · December 2004

I agree it might be a little softer than the current generation IS, however it is going to be nothing like the ES. It is still going to handle extremely well. You are forgetting that Lexus has a 2 pronged approach to the entry level luxury class - ES330 for one driver, and the IS300 for the other. There is no point to make the IS a soft car because THEY ALREADY HAVE ONE. The only reason it is a black sheep is because of sales volume. The GS has sporting intentions but is not considered a "black sheep". What about the last generation SC? Lexus has made good handling cars in the past, but those same cars have had a good amount of luxury too. That was the only failure of the current generation IS...not enough luxury. Especially the interior, which went too far to the sport side, when it should have stayed a bit more conservative. Check out Acura's TSX and TL, conservative yet sporty interiors. This is the direction Lexus will go.

lexusguy · December 2004

"If the 545i is not the benchmark vehicle among its class, which one is the benchmark? "

A segment benchmark tends to win every comparo its in, like the 3 series. I havent seen the 545i win a single comparison. The magazines have ranked it midpack, and the 745i back of the pack.

lenscap · December 2004

Over on clublexus.com there is a dealer in California who says his dealership (Lexus of Glendale) will be having a "party" on December 15 and that they will have brochures, photos and information on the new IS 350 (plus a new GS in person). We'll have to wait and see if this is true.

dewey · December 2004

"the Acura RL just won Car and Driver's Ten Best award"

So it CD's 10 best award that determines a benchmark? An RL the benchmark? Wow, the car won its first "Ten Best Award" from CD and now it is a benchmark! Does this mean that all the 10 cars selected as a winner by CD are all benchmarks in their segments. Does this not dilute the definition of what a benchmark really is? Is not a benchmark defined by being the best by many sources(magazines, auto journalists) and not by only one source?

My point is there really is no clear definite benchmark in the segment that exists for the BMW 545 or RL or the new and amazing Audi A6. The BMW545i may have been dethroned as the benchmark, but as a result there is no benchmark!

dewey · December 2004

So Lexusguy, you have answered my post, but avoided my question: What is the new benchmark? As I mention in my last post there appears to be no vehicle that is a benchmark in this class of cars that the 5 series belongs to? Please correct me if I am wrong.

bobcatman · December 2004

Infiniti is hungry for blood but there is not a single infiniti vehicle that can compete with a BMW.

Still living in fantasyland aren't we? I better go trade in the cushy, soft, poor handling Fx45 for the class recall leader X5. Yeah, I think the BMW family breadwinner 325 will surely beat out the newly tweaked 298 hp G35 coupe and lesser sedan. Maybe even the Z4 will someday outhandle the S2000 and try to look half as decent.

Folks, BMW's days of class leader of this and that has been blown a hole as wide as Texas. The new Japan sport/luxury models are just getting better and better and BMW's use of heavy unreliable electronics and I-drive gimics are gonna haunt them. The new M35/45 Infiniti's are poised to strike them hard now that they are down in sales and questionable quality.

Consumer Reports latest gives them bad marks for the 5 and 7. Of course the new cheesy, overdone styling and Bungle surface flaming is a big reason for the drop in sales. The 5 series is the class benchmark for oddball and gimicky, no denying that. The old 5 was the clearly better car.

The RL is a rolling technology piece, easily the most advanced car in the class of today. C&D 10 best winner is no surprise, Honda products have made the list more than any make to date. Admire the Honda way never follow anyone, lead.

The new IS will be bigger for sure but hope they use light alloy materials all around and carbon fiber like the new Z to shave those pounds.

dewey · December 2004

Pardon me bobcatman, but I did not know the 325 was the benchmark? I thought it was the 330!

So now let us compare a 330 vs a G35? Are they even comparable(even if you live in fantasyland, I think the answer is obvious)

I remember all those same predictions 14 years ago.

Remember when in 1990(assuming you are an old guy like me) they predicted Lexus , Infiniti, Acura would make mincemeat out of BMW, Audi and Mercedes! Coincidentally since that time the sales of the three German Margues grew and grew and grew.

Remember in 1990 when they predicted the Acura NSX would drive Porsche out of business. Since that time Porsche has never looked better.

There are as many today as in 1990 who believe in this fantasy that the German marques will passively watch their market share be eaten away by the Japanese(as the American firms did these past 30 years)

I am willing to wager that in the next 14 years your projections will be as accurate as those 1990 projections made by similar admirers of Japanes marques.

lexusguy · December 2004

If the new benchmark is the car to beat in the segment, then we all have to wait for every car to make its entrance and be evaluated. Two very important players are still not available yet. I dont know about BMW and Mercedes, but sales of Infiniti, Acura and Lexus are WELL above Audi sales, at least here in the US.

riez · December 2004

Re-read the voluminous E46 (current generation) 3 Series reviews. The usual tested benchmark has been the 330i with manual transmission and Sport Pkg or Perf Pkg. (The M3 is in a class by itself.) BMW has always been smart to give the car mags the performance "best" model. They make sure to bring a gun to a knife fight!

And even when it is ATs, they still tend to have Sport Pkg. Even if 325i.

Lexus regularly screws this up. They should always have sent MT with LSD!

riez · December 2004

Thought it interesting that in the December 2004 issue of Roundel (BMW CCA) magazine they have a full report on the recent JD Powers APEAL survey results.

Lexus won overall (910) beating out Porsche (903), Cadillac (902), and BMW (900). And Lexus had 5 top Three finishers.

"Entry Luxury": Chrysler 300(2005), Acura TL, and (tie) LEXUS IS300 sedan/SportCross & Cadillac CTS.

Lexus Top 3 "winners": IS300, LS430, RX330, GX470, & LX470.

BMW's were 5 Series, 7 Series, X5, & Z4, plus Mini Cooper.

Kirstie_H · December 2004

Folks, we're not comparing quality of different brands here. We're discussing the possibilities for the upcoming Lexus IS. There are plenty of place in the forums where you can compare the merits of various marques and models, but this ain't it. Stick to the IS, or this topic is toast.

riez · December 2004

Toyota/Lexus would give some details on the next IS. About all we can do is guess and pray.

tsx24 · December 2004

Ain't that right.
I don't think you "wait for other makes to become available". I think that you judge what is on the market right now. And when the new IS comes out, you judge the market again. Audi, BMW, Lexus, (not sure about MB-C) are all coming out with highly revised models in 06. This should make for great competition. But I do think that Lexus will take wipe the floor with these other makes. BMW will always sell the "vaunted" 3 series, but my guess is that the IS350 will be the next car to beat - over the current G35/TL/325. And I say 325 because I'm talking 35k and under.

alpha01 · December 2004

My point was that the new Bimmers havent won jack, let alone consecutive medals, as they did in the past. No, C/D is isnt the be all and end all, but I think it certainly says something when a mag that so clearly adores BMW fails to appoint the new models to the podium.

I'm crossing my fingers for an IS Ten Best next year. It'd be good to have a sporting Lexus up there, and make for good ad copy as well, especially if the Banglized 3-series fails.

~alpha

lexusguy · December 2004

"over the current G35/TL/325"

Thats a VERY tall order. Im not really a fan of the 325i, but the TL and especially the '05 G35x is a fantastic car. I recently spent about a half hour driving the car, and its some of the most fun I've had in any sedan that I can remember. Its worlds better than any IS300. Its got so much low end grunt that it reminds me of my old XK8, add to that a lovely, throaty exhaust note, super flat cornering, a surprisingly silent interior, and greatly improved materials quality (its not just the new aluminum, or wood, it feels like a totally different car than the cheesy '03 coupe I drove) and of course, a brilliant AWD system that lets you drive either a RWD OR AWD car with the flip of a switch. (Its got perfect weight balance too, unlike the front heavy Audi.) The IS350 is going to have to be a mighty achievement to take out G35.

dewey · December 2004

Using a BMW325 to compare a TL or G35 will guarantee the defeat of BMW as a comparison. In Canada a BMW325 is in the high 30k range, while the TL and G35 are in the low to mid 40k range.(I dont know the prices in the USA). So based on my perspective the comparison of a 325 is a waste of time.

The base BMW330 is about 46k and a G35 and a TL are priced between low to mid 40k in Canada and in Canadian dollars. The price discrepency is minimial when comparing their performance/handling in itself. Therefore the BMW 330 should be used as a comparison against a G35 or a TL.

When adding options and luxuries(IMO frivolous items), then a G35 abd TL looks like a bargain compared to the 330. It all depends on what your priorities are. My priorities are performance/Handling

How the pricing of the IS350 will be compared to the 3 series and how it stacks up in performance/handling will be interesting

bobcatman · December 2004

Well, now that anwers it the 330 does indeed compete with the lowly G35 even BMW seems to think so themselves, that's why the 330zhp was rushed to market as a repsonse. So much for no Infiniti cant compete. The same short-sighted mentality once mighty M.B. had prior to 1989..

As for the German makes yeah they've got very tight protectionist restrictions on their home market because of what the Japanese did to the domestics in the 80-90's they would've rolled over them the same. They are losing market share every year in the world's biggest, most important market here no question about that. Every sale for a Lexi, Acura, Infiniti and even Caddy now is one less for the once cozy entrenched Germans. Now back to the topic IS..

dewey · December 2004

http://money.cnn.com/2004/12/08/pf/autos/residual_value/index.htm- - - - ?cnn=yes

Before reading please refer to the site above.

I hope the IS350 will add more spice to the brand, since that may increase retention values for the Lexus brand itself.

The site above provides interesting facts : BMWs' have the best retention values among expensive cars(yes, even better than Lexus). Also best individual model for retention value is a MB model, not the IS or any model with the Lexus logo

Overall #4 company for retention value is VW, yes VW that horrific company that ranks last among the reliability stats.

dewey · December 2004

OK BObcat lets focus on the IS, BUT first get the facts straight,

Germany never had trade restrictions towards Japanese cars because there was no need(not in the 80's or 90's or anytime. Unlike France ,Italy or the USA during the 80's and early 90's.

"Every sale for a Lexi, Acura, Infiniti and even Caddy now is one less for the once cozy entrenched Germans."

Your statement above contradicts the facts: German marques never grew faster as the past 14 years when Lexus, Infiniti and Acura existed!

Any way I will say Aufwiedersehen(or should I say Sayonara) to this Forum until there are more facts about the IS. Then I will be able to justify my annoying postings on this board with IS350 facts.

wale_bate1 · December 2004

Dewey gets a bingo.

Lexus and Infiniti sales here have consistently been mostly at US makers' expense. Acura as well, but at first also cannibalized some Honda sales!

tsx24 · December 2004

I agree it is a tall order, but Lexus can do it. They learned to get the sport part right with the first IS. This time around, they know the competition, and they know what sells. I expect the IS350 to be a mighty achievement. It will also have that low end grunt you refer to. The only reason the G35 has that is because it has the higest displacement engine of the group. Obviously the IS350 will have the same displacement, and therfore the same torque probably 260 lb/ft vs the G35 270..

lexusguy · December 2004

Here in the US, a 330i can cost $6-10K more than a TL or G35, depending on equipment. The 325i matches them pretty closely on pricing.

Bobcatman, even if sales of the 3 Japanese luxury makes are hurting German car sales, its only in the US market. Acura and Infiniti dont even exist in Europe, and Lexus sales there are about 10% of what they are here. Japan needs to learn how to sell cars in Europe before BMW and Mercedes have much to worry about.

riez · December 2004

Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti did have a serious negative impact on the sales of Audi, BMW, MB, and even Porsche in the USA in the late 1980s and early 1990s. From about 1988-1992 were very dark days for these marques. They showed that very good cars could be built better (more reliably) and sold for a lot less. Forced the Germans to work to improve quality and control their costs.

And, yes, there were other factors. Audi was killed by the bogus "unintended acceleration" debacle. The Germans were killed by the fall of the dollar against the very, very strong German mark (remember the stock market "crash" of 1987 and the S&L bailout?).

Heck, I traded in my two BMWs for two Lexus IS300s! So BMW lost my two sales.

rwoods · December 2004

Dewey,

My recollection of 1990 is different than yours. I recall people laughing at Lexus and Infiniti for daring to compare themselves to Mercedes and BMW. Audi was all but dead from CBS's coverage which later proved wrong. It was by no means certain back then that the Japanese could ever climb into the ring with the mighty Germans. Lexus priced their flagship LS at $35,000 which only served to make the public more sceptical of the product. But alas the Japanese succeeded and we are all better for it. They forced the Germans to compete and improve while they raised the bar over and over. It seems to me that we live in a great time as automobile consumers. Things get better and better because of the competition.

rwoods · December 2004

I'll get very excited about the Lexus IS350 if it does something to improve the winter traction of the older model. That vehicle was superb until the snow started. It's engine was perfect, it's seats excellent, its handling almost as good as a BMW 330 and it was priced well. Perhaps all wheel drive?

rwoods · December 2004

TSX

I'm jumping in if Lexus offers the new IS V6 with a 2.5 liter - 220 hp engine with awd! And I'd like it in the Sportcross version for the utility. Just let them take my 2002 Audi A4 Quattro in trade and it's a deal.

rwoods · December 2004

I talked a friend into a Acura TSX at the end of her IS300 lease because she had such trouble in the snow. She is in mourning however, missing her IS. The TSX is very attractive and has all the bells and whistles such as NAV but she misses the power of the IS's six cylinder as the TSX is powered by a four.

tsx24 · December 2004

The power is not much different. It's mainly the torque that's different. 200 hp I4 vs 215 hp I6, come on the difference is negligible. It's only when you compare toruqe numbers 166 I4 vs 218 I6 do you find the big difference. But that should be known by people going in. The TSX is meant to rev high just like the S2000 and RSX. Some people like the low end power, and some like the high end horsepower, it just depends on the kind of driver. Personally I like the high end horsepower, although TSX is lacking torque somewhat. If Acura can push it to about 180 then I think it would be a much better car.

dewey · December 2004

Rwoods,

yes I agree. I am thankful for the competition, otherwise I would not consider buying a Lexus IS350.

It is also true that people laughed at Lexus and its Japaneses Breathen. But there was another segment of the popultation that thought the Japanese would kill off all luxury German marques. In fact even the CEO of BMW in the late 80s said that the competition with the Japanese will be tough.

I am not trying to bash the IS350 in anyway(although I find every other Lexus model a bore). I am just trying to correct some myths about the IS350's German competitors.

riez · December 2004

rwoods... All ya gotta do is put decent snow tires on your RWD car. As simple as that. You DON'T need AWD/4WD. If you can afford a Lexus, you can afford a set of snow tires. [I put sets of snow tires on both my IS300 sedan and wife's SportCross.]

lexusguy · December 2004

Actually, the TSX with the manual transmition and IS300 would be a dead heat 0-60. That makes the TSX with its peaky 4 look good, and it also makes the IS300 and its 3.0L of displacement look poor. A simple turbo on the TSX's engine (still keeping the price under a stock IS300) will make that grin come back in a hurry, as a boosted TSX would blow an IS300s doors off.

Riez, Im sorry but its just not that cut and dry. I have Bridgestone Blizzaks on my LS, and even then its barely passable in the snow. I drive my wife's AWD RX whenever conditions look bad.

riez · December 2004

lexusguy...

1. As I've pointed out before, the problem with the IS is gearing. Unlike cars like the 3 Series, she won't go 60 mph in 2nd gear. Poor decision by Lexus.

2. Key to winter snow tires are getting a good snow tire and using a taller, narrower tire. Look at the 16" size recommended by Tire Rack in their IS package.

pzev · December 2004

Actually, the TSX with the manual transmition and IS300 would be a dead heat 0-60. That makes the TSX with its peaky 4 look good, and it also makes the IS300 and its 3.0L of displacement look poor. A simple turbo on the TSX's engine (still keeping the price under a stock IS300) will make that grin come back in a hurry, as a boosted TSX would blow an IS300s doors off.

Sounds like you need a Mazdaspeed Mazda6. The TSX would be much cheaper and much less prestigious in the eyes of consumers if it didn't have the fancy badge and wasn't loaded with worthless options. If a boosted TSX is in the same league as an IS300 then the Mazda3, Mazda6, Focus, and other sporty cars are as well. Get a 4-cyl Mazda6, Mazda3 or Focus and boost it and it'll be cheaper than the TSX significantly. You also won't be lugging around 3300 pounds like the TSX either.

lexusguy · December 2004

"TSX would be much cheaper and much less prestigious in the eyes of consumers if it didn't have the fancy badge and wasn't loaded with worthless options."

Right, it would be a Honda Civic. Perhaps someone wants the TSX's bullet proof interior precision, NAV etc. An Altima SE-R would make short work of any of the above mentioned cars, but it could hardly be called luxurious.

riez · December 2004

lexusguy

USA Acura TSX is the European Honda Accord.

USA Lexus IS300 is the European/Japanese Toyota Altezza.

Nothing wrong with the heritage of either.

Is interesting that Lexus is finally coming to Japan after all these years!

lexusguy · December 2004

I'm well aware of the European versions of said cars. I'm not entirely sure what your point is though. Was it in reference to what I said above?

riez · December 2004

lexusguy... Yes, it was in response to your following post:

"'TSX would be much cheaper and much less prestigious in the eyes of consumers if it didn't have the fancy badge and wasn't loaded with worthless options.'

Right, it would be a Honda Civic. Perhaps someone wants the TSX's bullet proof interior precision, NAV etc."

As I pointed out, the USA Acura TSX is the European Honda Accord. Just as the USA Lexus IS is really the Toyota Altezza. There is even 2.0L engine for the Altezza.

Both Honda and Lexus have ingenuously used pre-existing platform for cost savings. Both the IS and TSX with manual transmission are great cars.

lexusguy · December 2004

What I meant by that is that if Honda stripped out all of the TSX's fancy features, it wouldnt be a TSX anymore. They already have a basic car that goes fast, its called the Civic TypeR. I was basically saying that TSX isnt really an apples to apples comparison to a Mazda6 or Nissan Alitma, and even further away from a Ford Focus or Mazda 3, even though those cars may be able to keep up with or beat a TSX in acceleration. Heck, I've seen a uber-boosted Civic that could easily beat my XKR on a drag strip. That doesnt mean I'd trade for it.

sorter · December 2004

the new IS will have a coupe version coming out, and probably by then, a Turbo Charge will be available for the Scion tc, Will the IS be under power compared with tc that is 1/2 the price?

lexusguy · December 2004

A TRD supercharger is already available for the tC. I think its roughly 2 grand. The blown tC has 200hp, so I dont think a 280hp IS350 will be threatened.

pzev · December 2004

So why isn't a maxed out Mazda3 a fair comparison to a TSX? Because for thousands more you get power heated seats and a fancier badge? Both cars have very similar interior room and the Mazda3 even has advantages like more rear leg room I believe. A Volvo S40 is on par with the TSX but a Mazda3 because of the lowly badge and allowing you to get a smaller engine and less features isn't a car that can compete with a TSX? The TSX is still the same car, just it has heated seats and leather.

From a marketing standpoint, yes the Mazda3 isn't in the same category as the TSX. Honda is smart. Make the Accord ugly and give the TSX a "better" badge and a few exclusive features.

This is exactly why the IS300 failed IMO. The car should have been cheaper with a Toyota badge. It appeals mostly to young people who simply don't have that kind of money. The people that can afford it don't want clear taillights, the questionable interior, and a boy-racer image. This is what these cars are about to most people, image! The TSX has better looks than the Accord and arguably a better interior. Make it an Acura for the badge hounds and you have a winner. Judging by all the complaints from owners about the engine and stiff ride it's obvious they bought into the marketing.

tsx24 · December 2004

Why don't you try driving the TSX and Mazda 3 back to back and see why they aren't a fair comparison. You are simply making stupid assessments by comparing cars on paper without even attempting to drive them. TSX has a level of refinement far greater than the Mazda 3 for starters, as well as materials that are 10 times better and many additional features.

Lexus may have failed by giving IS300 a "fancier badge", but it seems to have worked for Acura based on sales figures.

Of course anyone who doesn't research a car before buying is going to have regrets...just as some people regret the stiff ride and poor gas mileage of the IS300. They just failed to research.

alpha01 · December 2004

Well said. I love the Mazda 3, but its not a TSX competitor (and yes, I've driven both).

~alpha

Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

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