The Future Of The Manual Transmission

stickguy · January 2014

@xwesx said:
stickguy

Disadvantage of the WRX may be insurance costs, especially for a young, unmarried man (we're still talking your son's car, yes?).

Oh, I was just joining the earlier discussion about under 30K stick cars. A WRX is not a good idea for my son at this point!

though he was looking at used Miatas, and thinking about a stick.

He is kind of all over the place at the moment.

sb55 · January 2014

@stickguy said: though he was looking at used Miatas, and thinking about a stick

If your son gets a Miata, get a PRHT. It makes it into a better daily driver.

elias · January 2014

how about the 2014 chevy cruze M6 at $18,095 retail price. I'm still too happy with mine to consider trading my 2011. i was soooo pleased with the shifter/action/clutch on day 1, real smooth, perfect spacing of gears for running in 6th at 75 or whatev.
55k miles so far.. no problems whatsoever.

@benjaminh said:
What are the best manuals available for under $30,000 these days? There are a few, including....

The 2014 Mazda3 sedan 6 speed manual starting at $16,945.

The 2014 Mini Cooper 6 speed manual starting at $19,700.

The Mazda6 Sport 6 speed manual starting at $20,990.

The 2013 Civic Si sedan 6MT starting at $22,715.

The 2014 Accord Sport 6 MT for $23,715.

What are some others?

nippononly · January 2014

I have to say the WRX is a great little car that happens to have a manual, but it's not a great manual, even with the short shifter. I would say the shifter in the SI is much more precise and entertaining to row. The 6-speed in the STi, which I assume is the one that will be in the new WRX when it is released later in the year, is a much better shifter. But the 5-speed is a bit balky and imprecise.

It was one of the decision points for me when I chose the SI.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2014

That's right----short shifters increase shifting effort, not make it easier--just faster.

dino001 · January 2014

@nippononly said:
I have to say the WRX is a great little car that happens to have a manual, but it's not a great manual, even with the short shifter. I would say the shifter in the SI is much more precise and entertaining to row. The 6-speed in the STi, which I assume is the one that will be in the new WRX when it is released later in the year, is a much better shifter. But the 5-speed is a bit balky and imprecise.

I don't know. I owned 2003 WRX with short shifter and it was fantastic. The clutch was really heavy, but the entire sensation was great. I really felt it after a couple of week break, especially if I drove some other manual transmission car - say I was on holiday break back in my Old Country and drove my sister's or dad's car. After that, getting into my WRX was a real treat. BTW, I also owned 2008 STI, so I have a comparison. The standard STI shifter did not feel as "short" - in fact it felt softer. The only thing about WRX short shifter was that required a firm hand move with some force in it. A hesitation or too soft hand could result in a missed gear - it happened to me early couple of times, but once I learned, there was no feel of lack of precision.

stever · January 2014

New on the site today:

"The WRX may also not be the best choice if urban driving is in the cards, as clutch engagement can be abrupt in certain circumstances and its heavy effort will have your left leg significantly beefier than your right after only a few days stuck in traffic. Modulating the throttle just right can also be a bit tricky, making smooth driving difficult at times."

2015 Subaru WRX Full Test

stever · January 2014

May as well include a pic of the shifter.

dino001 · January 2014

@Stever@Edmunds said:
New on the site today:

"The WRX may also not be the best choice if urban driving is in the cards, as clutch engagement can be abrupt in certain circumstances and its heavy effort will have your left leg significantly beefier than your right after only a few days stuck in traffic. Modulating the throttle just right can also be a bit tricky, making smooth driving difficult at times."

They should have written the tester can't drive with a stick

stever · January 2014

Probably had to fight LA traffic for two hours trying to get to the track.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2014

Edmunds should have a foot masseuse on call for those poor testers--LOL! Except in heavy brutal traffic, a stickshift is much more useful to me than an automatic. At 75 mph, who is shifting much anyway?

stickguy · January 2014

Subaru must do heavy clutches. The only one of many many sticks that ever bothered my was the 1991 legacy. Very stiff. A traffic jam in that was torture. The Mazda 626 I had at the same time? No problem. Ditto for my later accord. Spent many uneventful hours is traffic jams with that car.

ruking1 · January 2014

My guess without driving the WRX and in effect comparing it to other M/T's I have driven is the design for greater clamping force.

nippononly · January 2014

For many years Subaru still did chain-operated clutches (like the '91 Legacy mentioned above) after others had switched almost exclusively to hydraulic clutches. Those were always bound to be stiffer and less smooth to operate. I remember the one in my '84 was that way.

I would think that with the amount of torque this engine makes almost off idle you would need to have a very strong clutch which might necessitate it be heavier. I would still take it over any type of automatic. I just hope Soob has put the clutch chatter problems of the late 90s entirely to rest.

stever · January 2014

"On the subject of transmissions, Gilles said: "Everyone is going to paddle shifts. We see that a lot. We recognize a trend, but that is not what the Viper is about. It really isn't.

"The people who buy (the Viper) relish the manual, they relish the driver's car, the raw connections to the vehicle. That is what it is about. So we are not chasing rainbows here."

A six-speed manual is standard in the SRT Viper."

SRT Viper Follows Its Own Road, Skips Automatic Transmission

stickguy · January 2014

Good.

dudleyr · January 2014

I applaud the position the Viper takes.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2014

The Viper is retro. Paddle shifts would make no sense on a car like that. It's like putting paddle shifters on a 427 Cobra. If you did, you missed the point of the car.

nippononly · January 2014

@Stever@Edmunds said:
"On the subject of transmissions, Gilles said: "Everyone is going to paddle shifts. We see that a lot. We recognize a trend, but that is not what the Viper is about. It really isn't.

"The people who buy (the Viper) relish the manual, they relish the driver's car, the raw connections to the vehicle. That is what it is about. So we are not chasing rainbows here."

Gilles seems to get it. My dedication to the manual comes from my love of the connection with the car that it provides.

elias · February 2014

yessssssssssssssssssssssssssss.

ruking1 · February 2014

I would agree with the sentiments of the last few posters. It would also seem that the 7 speed M/T is the new standard. This is especially true with the higher hp/torque engines One example is the new 14 Corvette Stingray, a 7 speed M/T Tremec STANDARD. It also makes sense on the diesel option to have the M/T option.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

How do you figure that very high torque engines need 7 speeds?

ruking1 · February 2014

The obvious would be why did Chevrolet put the 7 speed M/T in the Stingray ?Another way to ask, why not a 5/6/8 speed A/T or 6 speed manual options? I have also heard in passing (on MotorWeek) the Stingray is capable of 30 mpg. They just didn't mention what gear, and what speed.

hpmctorque · February 2014

~~~~

@MrShift@Edmunds said:
How do you figure that very high torque engines need 7 speeds?

I'm with you. The case for more gears is stronger with low torque engines than with higher torque ones. The 7-speed manual in the 2014 Corvette has more to do with EPA mileage requirements and marketing, in whatever order, than need, in my opinion.

If I were buying a new Corvette, it would be an automatic because 7 ratios are more than I care to row through. I know one doesn't need to use them all, but still, too many choices, when the 6-spped automatic is so good. Back in the mid-'50s, when Corvettes offered a choice between a 2-speed Powerglide or a 3-speed manual, and later, a 4-speed manual, the manuals made sense.

ruking1 · February 2014

Well then, I think you both partially answered the over all question why M/T's are in decline, an ever decreasing volume and percentage of the passenger vehicle fleet. If M/T "enthusiasts" are " less than supportive repeat customers, customers used to slush boxes are, can be and remain HARD sells? (aka dearth of religious conversions?)

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

Well, good point, but I can't be supportive of technology that I don't find useful to me--after all, I'm not in the business of supporting an automaker's experiments or marketing schemes. I don't need 7 speeds in a Corvette---obviously at least 2 of them must be overdrives, and I'm not planning on going 175 mph anytime soon. I barely need 6 speeds in my Mini and would be just as happy with 5. Four speed close-ratio and an overdrive 5th---boom, done!

ruking1 · February 2014

One more "speed" (7 speed), ala probably wider gear spread, aka double over drive with 5th gear being a 1.5 over drive) does not increased technology make !! ?? (yes statement and question)

Indeed what might be almost totally overlooked (in the Stringray anyway, AND as I read it) is the so called REV matching feature IN the 7 speed M/T !!

Now, YOU know the implications. BUT for the greater audience, what it CAN mean is the more elusive heel and toe techniques (which I know in past posts you have spoken about) is SYSTEM performed !!!!!!!! (or however one wants to say it).

Again, as an "enthusiast," YOU say it best, nobody NEEDS 7 speeds (in whatever- my sic) and (you) barely need a six speed, and when you REALLY get right to the chase a 4 speed is (5th gear over drive being overkill?) bata bing bata boom !! BUT the M/T that does not meet the legislative " rules and regulations" GOING forward, does not get built (put on the market !! Needless to say this would be another factor that tends to DECREASE the markets for M/T's. So, add the speeds..... or ...... DIE !!!

SO, if I might be permitted to take it to its logical conclusion. Why is a manual now WANTED at all ! ? The more compelling logic however are most folks have already DEMONSTRATED they are willing to pay the 1,500 + PREMIUM for the A/T OPTION, no matter how BAD !! ?????? Do A/T's have higher repair and maintenance costs? Yes. When the A/T does break, higher repair costs may propel some to many to replace the car, rather than fix the A/T. Do they switch to manuals because of the "poor A/T experiences? No, they once again pay more for what? ......another A/T? This of course adds a and ANOTHER HUGE profit. This of course is what "enthusiasts" may profess to "LOATH".

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

I think it all comes down to the old saying: "driving a slow car fast is more fun than driving a big car slowly". I'm perfectly okay with automated clutches and 7 speeds in high HP, big wide monster supercars. Crawling around in 1st or 2nd in a 550 HP large car in traffic is about ZERO fun, nor is driving one in sharp twisties at 30-40 mph particularly awe-inspiring.

I think manual transmissions will soon be relegated to only certain types of cars---economy subcompacts, pickup trucks, "sport" hatches and "sport" compact sedans, and diesel turbo cars.

ruking1 · February 2014

Well for sure that is where the majority of M/T's are now. The last M/T I bought in 2003 was a 5 speed (I would have been happier with a 6 speed and the bigger (Euro) injectors) and now is hitting 181,000 miles; in turbo diesel car. Thankfully I think the 6 speed manual (or more) will remain a viable option (standard) in that oem's line up.

andys120 · February 2014

[I think manual transmissions will soon be relegated to only certain types of cars---economy subcompacts, pickup trucks, "sport" hatches and "sport" compact sedans, and diesel turbo cars.](I think manual transmissions will soon be relegated to only certain types of cars---economy subcompacts, pickup trucks, "sport" hatches and "sport" compact sedans, and diesel turbo cars. "I think manual transmissions will soon be relegated to only certain types of cars---economy subcompacts, pickup trucks, "sport" hatches and "sport" compact sedans, and diesel turbo cars.")

Economy cars? Maybe but DSGs might be more fuel efficient. Turbo diesel cars put out so much low end torque that a manual is pointless. I drove a Jetta TDI with a DSG and found manually shifting it a waste of time, the car felt as if needed only two foward gear,low and high.

As for pick-up trucks, unless compact gas pickups make a comeback, I don't think a lot of P'up buyers are interested in shifting for themselves

ruking1 · February 2014

We have a DSG (6 speed) on a 09 Jetta TDI. It has over 68,000 miles. For lots of reasons, VWA extended the drive train warranty to 10 years/100,000 miles. For a host of reasons, while I would have still preferred the M/T (6 speed), the other 3 drivers would not have taken kindly to it. So they do "like" it. The other side to this is the M/T would NOT have had a 10 year/100,000 miles warranty (extension). BE that as it may, since I do NOT dislike the DSG, even as it took some time and miles to "like" it, the real world numbers are more like 3.5 happy drivers.

There is no doubt in my mind the 6 speed M/T is capable with way less effort of better MPG. This is not to mention that it would be a minimum of 1,100 dollars cheaper. I also got the normal dealer DSG oil and filter change service ($400.) done by a TDI guru.) But without the B portion( with the 6 speed manual) I have not been able to do the A/B test under like conditions. The swag portion would be a minimum of 2/3 mpg BETTER with a M/T. So given 39 to 42 mpg in a normal commute (DSG) a reasonable expectation would be 41 to 45 mpg. We do have a 5 speed manual TDI so it is not like this is a total swag.

benjaminh · February 2014

It's still possible to order a BMW 320i with a 6 speed manual for $32,750. Wonder if anyone has actually gotten one that way....?

stickguy · February 2014

@benjaminh said:
It's still possible to order a BMW 320i with a 6 speed manual for $32,750. Wonder if anyone has actually gotten one that way....?

Probably a couple in circulation, but I doubt you will find any sitting on the lot. So if you want one, better plan ahead and order one.

dudleyr · February 2014

@MrShift@Edmunds said:

I think manual transmissions will soon be relegated to only certain types of cars---economy subcompacts, pickup trucks, "sport" hatches and "sport" compact sedans, and diesel turbo cars.

Don't forget that the Miata fits none of those categories and has an extremely high take rate for the manual. Quick google shows that 63 percent of softtops were manual (only 41 percent of hardtops) in 2011. I know on the used market you pay about $1,500 more for a stick on a first gen (NA) Miata. Nobody wants the automatic.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

Not sure you'll be seeing the MX-5 around much longer, as U.S. sales are dropping year to year, from a high of 16,897 in 2006, to a 2013 figure of 5780. At this rate of decline, it'll be about zero in 2017.

stickguy · February 2014

Isn't there a new design coming soon? That could give a rebound for a bit.

ruking1 · February 2014

They are almost "custom" made for roads like CA Highway One. However, getting there in one will beat one to death. Indeed if one has the time and inclination (most do not) from SoCal to WA Highway One, any part, to all of it is/are really the iconic highway for the Miata (others also).

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

I think the MX-5 has an image problem (undeserved, going by sales records) and I don't know how to solve it---maybe Mazda does. Jalopnik website thinks Miata owners fall into 3 categories 1) young guys going to, or coming from, an autocross, and/or completely stoned 2) old guys wishing they were like #1 above and 3) completely confused people who aren't sure why they bought it.

Jalopnik insists it's not a woman's car anymore, and sales figures do back that up, but the public perception seems to deter that macho 'sports car crowd" who buys a car strictly for performance.

I DUNNO --I've always respected the car immensely, and never had the slightest urge to own one.

dudleyr · February 2014

@MrShift@Edmunds said:
Not sure you'll be seeing the MX-5 around much longer, as U.S. sales are dropping year to year, from a high of 16,897 in 2006, to a 2013 figure of 5780. At this rate of decline, it'll be about zero in 2017.

Actually Mazda has confirmed that the next generation MX-5 (ND) will debut at next years Chicago auto show. Miata will share platform with the Alfa Spider. They have sold over 900,000 Miatas world wide since intro, so it is not such a niche vehicle. One problem with Miata is EPA 28 mpg highway (though it does much better) - worse than a Mustang or Camaro etc. - they will fix that in a large way with the next generation. Miata is not much of a primary car more of a weekend vehicle and people don't buy those so much in a recession, but we are hopefully rebounding.

I have always admired them, but not had a real desire to buy one until I test drove the '95 my boss was selling ( only 26,000 miles). By far the most fun vehicle I have ever driven. It is basically a copy of the Lotus Elan - except it doesn't break down. 4 Wheel double wishbone suspension, RWD with a Torsen LSD, Longitudinal engine with a ton of space to work on it, 50/50 weight distribution (battery in the trunk). You just feel like you are driving an old British sports car. Even the exhaust note is right.

Anyway I am now a huge fan, and they should be around for a while selling mostly sticks.

stever · February 2014

@dudleyr said:
It is basically a copy of the Lotus Elan - except it doesn't break down

I always considered them to be a modern MG - except they don't break down.

dudleyr · February 2014

@Stever@Edmunds said:
I always considered them to be a modern MG - except they don't break down.

Actually I did too, until I read about Mazda's intentions and saw an Elan (on the left above).

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

I would call 5700 units a year borderline "niche".

andys120 · February 2014

@MrShift@Edmunds said:
I think the MX-5 has an image problem (undeserved, going by sales records) and I don't know how to solve it---maybe Mazda does. Jalopnik website thinks Miata owners fall into 3 categories 1) young guys going to, or coming from, an autocross, and/or completely stoned 2) old guys wishing they were like #1 above and 3) completely confused people who aren't sure why they bought it.

Jalopnik insists it's not a woman's car anymore, and sales figures do back that up, but the public perception seems to deter that macho 'sports car crowd" who buys a car strictly for performance.

I DUNNO --I've always respected the car immensely, and never had the slightest urge to own one.

Sales of all convertibles are declining for a number of reasons. We are discussing them in The Topless One-Percent.forums.edmunds.com/discussion/17148/general/x/the-topless-one-percent#latesthttp://

As for the idea that the Miata is a "Chick Car", that's pretty much undeserved. I don't think I've sen more than a dozen women driving them since they came out. The typical Miata driver seems to be a middle-aged guy, probably reliving their youthful acquaintance with MGs and Triumphs. I hardly ever see young guys driving them, unless they're beat-up rust traps. It seems like todays youth focuses more on decibels coming out of their speakers than on HP coming out of the tailpipes.

A successor to the current Mx-5 is being co-developed with one other than Alfa-Romeo. I've come close to buying a Miata but a combination of Italian style and Japanese mechanics could seal the deal.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2014

Early on, there was indeed a rush of female buyers, and that's where the image came from. It was like all the old folks who bought PT Cruisers and Scion xBs---not the demographic Chrysler or Toyota was expecting.

The Miata could use a bit more "authority" out the tailpipe and some tweeks to the Disney image.

fintail · February 2014

That's it. I remember the early Miata days, and a lot of them seemed to be spotted in automatic form with a woman behind the wheel. That with the cute face (which would become much worse in the new century) didn't work to give it a masculine image.

Funny thing, I know a woman who had a manual Miata, but she's probably in the "what did I do" category. She didn't lower the top nearly often enough, commuted in it a lot, eventually it got hit and totaled. It was replaced with a CVT Versa - so fun wasn't her concern.

stever · February 2014

1997 Mazda Miata: Still

Still what?

(Still want one).

nippononly · February 2014

Is it true? Subaru is dropping the 6-speed manual from the Legacy line? There goes another one. :-(

And I suppose that means the Outback will lose the manual option as well.

xwesx · February 2014

Quite true. Not really surprised, I guess, except that it is Subaru doing it. These aren't driver's cars any more and they haven't made any pretense of such since the 2010 GT.

stickguy · February 2014

Take rate probably super low at this point. Especially in the sedan.

nippononly · February 2014

Met someone today with a stick shift Camry, that rarest of all beasts! Toyota hasn't offered one of those in what, ten years?

I'm disappointed in Subaru over the Legacy...

The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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