The Future Of The Manual Transmission

Mr_Shiftright

The MINI is great fun to drive but the shifter is bloody awful. I wonder if the new ones are any better. it feels like you're rowing an oar in a barrel.

nyccarguy

I'm going back a few years, but my 1st stop in my cash 4 clunkers search was the MINI dealer. I drove a Cooper S with a 6-speed manual transmission. Coming from my Prelude, it felt vague. It actually turned me off to the car.

ray80

@dudleyr said:
I will say that by far the worst shifter I have driven was on a '76 Plymouth Volare wagon (special ordered with a stick). Three on the tree and the linkage would bind every few thousand miles. Had to open the hood and reach down to release the linkage. Super heavy clutch with no feel.

Icing on the cake was manual steering and no air conditioning.

Ironically it would absolutely walk away from other like vehicles since it had no accessories taking power and was a stick.

My 77' Volare wasn't any better with 4 on the flour. Bind and have to get under the car to jiggle and get it to release (where ever you were on the road). I suspect that may have been the cause fir disdain my wife has for Chrysler products after it happened to her several times

dieselone

Yeah, I've had some fun in an S2000. Great shifter/clutch combo, just begs to be driven hard.

The Corolla shift feel is fine, but the clutch feel is not very good, it's just kind of there, and it hard to drive smooth. In Toyota fashion, it just does what's asked of it and is not particularly rewarding to drive, even being the sporty model. I think Toyota's idea of steering response/feel is just to turn down the steering assist;)

elias

@dudleyr said:
I will say that by far the worst shifter I have driven was on a '76 Plymouth Volare wagon (special ordered with a stick). Three on the tree and the linkage would bind every few thousand miles. Had to open the hood and reach down to release the linkage. Super heavy clutch with no feel.

Icing on the cake was manual steering and no air conditioning.

Ironically it would absolutely walk away from other like vehicles since it had no accessories taking power and was a stick.

that is funny stuff, dudley. those cars were exquisitely bad. and you special ordered the column-shifted manual, heh heh. that is hard-core. did you happen to also drive a stickshift chevy citation X11 at any point? or a stickshift AMC pacer? not that there's anything wrong with that . anyway, lately i'm sort of attracted to the buick verano turbo stickshift.

elias

shifter/clutch in the base model chevy cruze is grrrrreat ! (mine is a 2011).

ray80

@elias said:
shifter/clutch in the base model chevy cruze is grrrrreat ! (mine is a 2011).

I am liking mine on 14' ECO also

kyfdx

The worst I've tried on a new car is the Fiat 500.. Feels like the shifter isn't attached to anything..

hpmctorque

@kyfdx said:
The worst I've tried on a new car is the Fiat 500.. Feels like the shifter isn't attached to anything..

I don't know which sticks you've driven for comparison, so I can't say you're wrong, but your comment "Feels like the shifter isn't attached to anything" really has me puzzled. I've driven dozens of stick shift vehicles, including Hondas, Toyotas, Alfas, VWs, Porsches and BMWs, and I'm very pleased with the 5-speed manual in my 2013 500. It definitely feels connected, and the action is precise, and not rubbery. As any car, the 500 isn't faultless, but your criticism is the first I've read or heard about regarding the manual.

fintail

Back in the 90s when I was young, my dad had a 68 Fairlane as one of his old cars. It had a 289, but no other options aside from an AM radio - manual steering, brakes, 3 on the tree. Not a relaxing car to drive in city traffic. And he loved it. That car alone gives me a distaste for manuals - makes me think of too much hard work.

hpmctorque

@fintail said:
Back in the 90s when I was young, my dad had a 68 Fairlane as one of his old cars. It had a 289, but no other options aside from an AM radio - manual steering, brakes, 3 on the tree. Not a relaxing car to drive in city traffic. And he loved it. That car alone gives me a distaste for manuals - makes me think of too much hard work.>

Manual vs. automatic is a matter of preference. For me, it depends on the specific year and model, and engine. In the 1940s and 1950s manuals were preferable in more situations than today, mainly because engines are generally much more powerful, and automatic transmissions have gotten so much more efficient than they used to be. In most cases I'd choose an automatic today.

I chose the manual for my Fiat because it's got a small displacement, relatively low torque engine. In the case of this naturally aspirated model, the manual delivers better performance and fuel economy. I also think it fits the character of the car better. In our case, it's also an extra car.

Getting back to the 1940s through, say, the mid 1950s, GM's (4-speed) Hydramatic was by far the best automatic, in my opinion. It was the only automatic that I would have chosen over a manual. Chrysler's semi-automatics, Powerglide, Dyna-Flo, PowerFlyte, Ford and Borg Warner automatics were all inferior to their manual counterparts, and especially those without a fourth gear or overdrive. TorqueFlyte and the GM and Ford counterparts changed the calculus, in favor of automatics for domestic cars. Again, my opinion. Lincoln engineers must have felt similarly since Ford's luxury division stooped to buying Hydramatics from its cross-town nemesis for its new Y-block OHV V8 1952-1954 models.

As we discussed a long time ago, the Mercedes automatics of the 1960s-?? were similar to the HydraMatics, in terms of feel and efficiency, if not design.

As far as the domestic 3-on-the-tree manuals were concerned, there wasn't even one that remotely compared with the modern ones, in terms of shift action. They were all clunky and sloppy by today's. They were also gear deficient, unless they had overdrive or a fourth gear.

fintail

The Japanese do make it easier, just as they do on bikes too. Like someone said, if you can't drive a Honda stick, you can't drive a stick.

I like the oddball 4-speed fluid coupling system automatic in the fintail. It kind of begs for a manual mode, and as it seems to be a direct connection, shifts are fast for an automatic. In my E55 tiptronic, rocking the shifter to change gears sometimes had it feel like the lever was sending a telegraph to the box, which eventually got the message, and shifted. The fintail does it immediately. Drawback is that every 5-10 years, the linkage/bushings can get worn, as it wasn't designed for constant use.

No doubt a manual can help overcome a lack of torque. Thinking of all that, I remember for in-town driving, my dad would just leave the Fairlane in 2nd, and manage the clutch and gas around that. I could never pull it off.

@hpmctorque said:

nippononly

@boaz47 said:
I don't think as long as we have ICE running our vehicles manuals will cease to exist, they will just hit rock bottom like record players have.

Good comparison, and I hope you are right, because I'm not sure I have even that much hope about the future of the manual. And of course even at that, records are at 2% of the market and not available for the majority of the music being released, and to get a record player you don't just go down to the local Best Buy, you go to a specialty store or order it on-line. :-(

For now I am going to continue to take solace from the fact that there are still vehicle trims that come ONLY with a stick, like the SIs and STs of the world...

nippononly

@stickguy said:

The worst of my modern cars was probably the 1990 legacy Wagon. Vague/rubbery shift, and oddly stiff clutch that was a bear in traffic (unlike the 1991 626 we also had that could stop and go all day).

Now you're taking me back - I remember the clutch in my '97 Soob was the worst - stiff, chattered like crazy on engagement, just the pits. The shifter wasn't too bad and by comparison the shifter in my '09 is a disgrace - sloppy as can be, and it has gotten worse as it has aged. Now at 75K, it's getting hard to get it into reverse, because the linkage just binds up and binds up and it's impossible to find the gates. But the clutch is much better now - Subaru heard all those complaints from its customers in the 90s.

As bad as this shifter is now in my '09, and the clutch was back then in my '97, I would still rather have them any day than the automatic option. Back then it was Subaru's ancient 4-speed slushbox and now it is the worst of the worst CVT. :-(

slorenzen

@nippononly said:
As bad as this shifter is now in my '09, and the clutch was back then in my '97, I would still rather have them any day than the automatic option. Back then it was Subaru's ancient 4-speed slushbox and now it is the worst of the worst CVT. :-(

I guess I should be grateful for the linkage and clutch in my '06 civic.

Still works like new at 90K.

nippononly

null
Honda has the best manuals in the biz, IMO

elias

honda manual shifters are fine, but it wouldn't be difficult to name other manufacturers with better manual shift setups!

which current honda model do you think has the best manual-shift setup?
i wish i could get a 'honda' TSX wagon with manual shift.

nippononly

Which Honda has the best manual shifter? Civic SI, TSX, Accord Sport 4- cylinder. S2K? :-)

cdnpinhead

I haven't driven them all, but I've been very pleased with my '08 TSX transmission. In fact, if the other pair of wheels were being driven, the car would be just about perfect.

dudleyr

Love the shifter on my '13 Accord - smooth as silk and the clutch is effortless. My Miata is a little clunkier and more mechanical feeling and isn't at its best until it is warmed up, but shifting in the Accord requires moving my arm. I can shift the Miata just by flicking my fingers - much more fun.

Everybody who loves cars seems to want a stickshift wagon. Too bad they are so rare. I almost got a Jetta TDI wagon, but the rear seat is tiny. Kinda ruins the point of having a wagon if you can't put two (or three) 6' adults in the back seat. I have 3 sons and need to fit two in the back - rarely 3 as we use the minivan when the whole family goes somewhere.

nyccarguy

@nippononly‌

Don't forget about the Prelude;)

nippononly

Oops, my bad! the Prelude very much deserves to be included in that list!

stever

This one has possibilities:

2015 Jeep Renegade

ruking1

dudleyr said:

Love the shifter on my '13 Accord - smooth as silk and the clutch is effortless. My Miata is a little clunkier and more mechanical feeling and isn't at its best until it is warmed up, but shifting in the Accord requires moving my arm. I can shift the Miata just by flicking my fingers - much more fun.

Everybody who loves cars seems to want a stickshift wagon. Too bad they are so rare. I almost got a Jetta TDI wagon, but the rear seat is tiny. Kinda ruins the point of having a wagon if you can't put two (or three) 6' adults in the back seat. I have 3 sons and need to fit two in the back - rarely 3 as we use the minivan when the whole family goes somewhere.

It would appear that a mid to fuller sized wagon with a 6 speed M/T is a VERY small market. ((i.e., your VW JSW being too small)

ray80

stever said:

This one has possibilities:

2015 Jeep Renegade

I don't plan on being in the market again soon, but this looks like it might be an interesting one to me.

dudleyr

ruking1 said:

dudleyr said:

Love the shifter on my '13 Accord - smooth as silk and the clutch is effortless. My Miata is a little clunkier and more mechanical feeling and isn't at its best until it is warmed up, but shifting in the Accord requires moving my arm. I can shift the Miata just by flicking my fingers - much more fun.

Everybody who loves cars seems to want a stickshift wagon. Too bad they are so rare. I almost got a Jetta TDI wagon, but the rear seat is tiny. Kinda ruins the point of having a wagon if you can't put two (or three) 6' adults in the back seat. I have 3 sons and need to fit two in the back - rarely 3 as we use the minivan when the whole family goes somewhere.

It would appear that a mid to fuller sized wagon with a 6 speed M/T is a VERY small market. ((i.e., your VW JSW being too small)

Very small indeed, but then I want a vehicle that makes sense and most Americans buy vehicles that don't. They are more concerned with making up for some personality shortcoming, catering to some style, or just generally trying to impress strangers.

Lets illustrate this with two vehicles from the same company. The Legacy wagon and the Outback. The legacy is better than the Outback in just about every way, but the Outback is an "SUV". The Legacy rides better, handles better, is quieter, gets better mpg, is faster and costs less. The Outback has some plastic cladding and more ground clearance. The cladding does nothing and the ground clearance helps a small percentage of people a small percentage of the time. Yet the Outback outsells the Legacy by 10 to 1. Don't get me wrong - the Outback is a fine vehicle, but the Legacy is better for the vast majority of people. Yes there are always the exceptions that actually do go off road and for them the Outback makes more sense, but they are an extreme minority.

And no you don't need a ton of ground clearance to get around when in snows. I drive snow tire equipped FWD cars (like a very low Integra) in South Dakota snow and have had no problem for 20 years here. The 4wd's are in the ditch way before I have any trouble. If you are serious about getting around in the snow you get snow tires. Of course other people are not impressed if you drive by with snow tires on - hence the choices many people make.

Rant over.

ruking1

dudleyr said:

ruking1 said:

dudleyr said:

Love the shifter on my '13 Accord - smooth as silk and the clutch is effortless. My Miata is a little clunkier and more mechanical feeling and isn't at its best until it is warmed up, but shifting in the Accord requires moving my arm. I can shift the Miata just by flicking my fingers - much more fun.

Everybody who loves cars seems to want a stickshift wagon. Too bad they are so rare. I almost got a Jetta TDI wagon, but the rear seat is tiny. Kinda ruins the point of having a wagon if you can't put two (or three) 6' adults in the back seat. I have 3 sons and need to fit two in the back - rarely 3 as we use the minivan when the whole family goes somewhere.

It would appear that a mid to fuller sized wagon with a 6 speed M/T is a VERY small market. ((i.e., your VW JSW being too small)

Very small indeed, but then I want a vehicle that makes sense and most Americans buy vehicles that don't. They are more concerned with making up for some personality shortcoming, catering to some style, or just generally trying to impress strangers.

Lets illustrate this with two vehicles from the same company. The Legacy wagon and the Outback. The legacy is better than the Outback in just about every way, but the Outback is an "SUV". The Legacy rides better, handles better, is quieter, gets better mpg, is faster and costs less. The Outback has some plastic cladding and more ground clearance. The cladding does nothing and the ground clearance helps a small percentage of people a small percentage of the time. Yet the Outback outsells the Legacy by 10 to 1. Don't get me wrong - the Outback is a fine vehicle, but the Legacy is better for the vast majority of people. Yes there are always the exceptions that actually do go off road and for them the Outback makes more sense, but they are an extreme minority.

And no you don't need a ton of ground clearance to get around when in snows. I drive snow tire equipped FWD cars (like a very low Integra) in South Dakota snow and have had no problem for 20 years here. The 4wd's are in the ditch way before I have any trouble. If you are serious about getting around in the snow you get snow tires. Of course other people are not impressed if you drive by with snow tires on - hence the choices many people make.

Rant over.

You might not know this, but to ME you are preaching to the choir on the issues posted. (aka I agree with you, understand the example, but have no realities in the two Subaru's) As you probably would agree, in ANY model line's iterations "options" can SUBSTANTIALLY increase the prices. On resale one is not likely to recoup costs, aka HIGH depreciation. Another is one BEST keep these systems working, for IF they are not on sale, depreciation is normally even GREATER.

nyccarguy

I'm here at the Chevy dealer with my Dad's Tahoe getting some warranty work done.  They have a used 2014 Cruze LS with a 6-Speed stick.  Asking $14K & change.

Michaell

nyccarguy said:

I'm here at the Chevy dealer with my Dad's Tahoe getting some warranty work done.  They have a used 2014 Cruze LS with a 6-Speed stick.  Asking $14K & change.

Yeah, but that's got the 1.8L engine. Rather get the 1.4L turbo.

ray80

nyccarguy said:

I'm here at the Chevy dealer with my Dad's Tahoe getting some warranty work done.  They have a used 2014 Cruze LS with a 6-Speed stick.  Asking $14K & change.

Rumor has it my oldest daughter is picking up a used 13' MT Cruze in the next hour or two. No idea on the particulars yet.

stever

ray80 said:

I don't plan on being in the market again soon, but this looks like it might be an interesting one to me.

Yeah, a square, small (but "roomy") box. Will be interested to see them on the road.

Michaell

stever said:

ray80 said:

I don't plan on being in the market again soon, but this looks like it might be an interesting one to me.

Yeah, a square, small (but "roomy") box. Will be interested to see them on the road.

I dunno how roomy it will be .. I think the dimensions are smaller than a Kia Soul.

stever

Snaps like this give me hope (the new HR-V is probaby going to be better for gear too, if not any bigger):



Ah well, I doubt my wife would want to try shifting with her bum left leg much anyway.

ray80

stever said:

Snaps like this give me hope (the new HR-V is probaby going to be better for gear too, if not any bigger):



Ah well, I doubt my wife would want to try shifting with her bum left leg much anyway.

Just fold those back sets forward, much more room I think

xwesx

stever said:

This one has possibilities:

2015 Jeep Renegade

Ah, relegating the MT to the low end again. Figures! I'm a little surprised that they didn't photograph a MT interior vs. the auto. It's amusing to me that auto transmission shifters have gone one of two ways these days: A little knob that doesn't even remind one of a gear selector of old, or a pseudo-manual looking thing.

Meh; I don't know. This "subcompact SUV" explosion is interesting, yet it kinda misses the mark for me. I'm still thinking that my next car will be a larger rig, AWD, diesel. Basically, I'm not sure why I would buy something with half the space that gets the same or worse economy as something larger and more versatile. Less expensive? Yes, to a point, at least on initial purchase, but that is a smaller and smaller part of the equation the longer you keep it.

stever

TruckTrend has a pic with the rear seats down but it's not letting me post it here. The floor could be a bit flatter but I don't see much in the way of gaps like some hatchbacks have.

Thecarconnection.com has a pic of the manual shifter if you can get their gallery to work.

ruking1

xwesx said:

stever said:

This one has possibilities:

2015 Jeep Renegade

Ah, relegating the MT to the low end again. Figures! I'm a little surprised that they didn't photograph a MT interior vs. the auto. It's amusing to me that auto transmission shifters have gone one of two ways these days: A little knob that doesn't even remind one of a gear selector of old, or a pseudo-manual looking thing.

Meh; I don't know. This "subcompact SUV" explosion is interesting, yet it kinda misses the mark for me. I'm still thinking that my next car will be a larger rig, AWD, diesel. Basically, I'm not sure why I would buy something with half the space that gets the same or worse economy as something larger and more versatile. Less expensive? Yes, to a point, at least on initial purchase, but that is a smaller and smaller part of the equation the longer you keep it.

Essentially (depending on wants, needs, purposes, etc.) that is why I have been, am ok with a so called "station" wagon" SUV/CUV large,mid,small, and do not really like "car" station wagons. Also the TDI's offer higher fuel mileage over that segments gassers. The last time I have seen a M/T in the segment was a 1987 TLC (28 years ago and 12 mpg was about normal). Since then I would not be the only driver, it almost dials out a 6/7 speed M/T.

dudleyr

I find the small SUV concept interesting up to a point - and that point is usually mpg. The HRV seems very nice. Love the space utility, but it gets about the same mpg as a much larger and more powerful Accord. It gets 28/35 while the Fit that it is based on gets 33/41 with just a little bit less room. And as efficient as it is for packaging it could be even better if wasn't trying to look like an SUV.

I do appreciate that it has the stick though, and it could be a good first new car for one of my kids some day, just frustrating that it could be so much better.

Also good for Jeep for offering a stick.

Maybe I will someday have a truck or SUV after all if they wind up being the last place to find a manual. Although now that I have a Miata I am more at peace with the lack of choices for a stick. If I ever want to shift that is one fun shifter. Love the super short throws - just have to flick my fingers. Driving me crazy while it sits in the garage for the winter.

xwesx

dudleyr said:

Maybe I will someday have a truck or SUV after all if they wind up being the last place to find a manual. Although now that I have a Miata I am more at peace with the lack of choices for a stick. If I ever want to shift that is one fun shifter. Love the super short throws - just have to flick my fingers. Driving me crazy while it sits in the garage for the winter.

That's as good point. I guess it isn't really necessary to have a MT in *all* my vehicles if I can have it in some. The problem I see is that the options for said choice are continually whittled down to the point where I have one choice: If I want a new car, I have to settle for something. That's not a promising prospect when faced with spending a huge wad of cash.

stever

I have room in my garage down here and I'd be happy to exercise it for you.

ruking1

xwesx said:

dudleyr said:

Maybe I will someday have a truck or SUV after all if they wind up being the last place to find a manual. Although now that I have a Miata I am more at peace with the lack of choices for a stick. If I ever want to shift that is one fun shifter. Love the super short throws - just have to flick my fingers. Driving me crazy while it sits in the garage for the winter.

That's as good point. I guess it isn't really necessary to have a MT in *all* my vehicles if I can have it in some. The problem I see is that the options for said choice are continually whittled down to the point where I have one choice: If I want a new car, I have to settle for something. That's not a promising prospect when faced with spending a huge wad of cash.

While there are folks that agree, they (you) are a niche group within a niche group. So for example, most folks who have an A/T are both willing to pay for the option and EVEN if they are NOT, wind up paying for it anyway. Most folks wanting a MT would probably balk at paying an A/T premium for a MT. Another is some oems and some lines only now offer A/T's.

When I got a 2001 Corvette, the A/T take rate was @ 67% PLUS. Z06 @ that time ONLY came with a 6 speed manual and that was 5,200 units?

So IF sales were app 34,000, 67% is app 22,780 units. Assuming 67% of 5,200 being A/T, IF given a choice, CHOICE in the matter would have shifted the over all A/T take rate to more like 77% PLUS. Again, purely a guess on my part. I know that is also true with Porsche.

xwesx

ruking1 said:

Most folks wanting a MT would probably balk at paying an A/T premium for a MT.

I'm not so sure about that. *If* the options structures are as they are, *and* the OEMs wanted a premium for MT, yes, that's "balkable." But, if MT is an option, and a buyer can get it at any level of the model's lineup w/ said premium, I don't think many buyers who actually want the MT would forgo it due to a premium. Clearly, they don't for AT, and I doubt they would for the other.

As far as the Renegade goes, they don't specifically say in the article what additional restrictions might be involved with the MT transmission choice. I suspect, however, that they may limit that option to FWD versions only in those lower two trims.

This "death of the MT" thing is a self-fulfilling prophecy. After all, ceding vehicular control to the driver is really the antithesis of the current direction of automotive manufacturing.

ruking1

I am not sure about what you are not sure of. Let me put it another way, IF Z06 (5,200) 6/7 speed M/T COST more money over a more monied 8 speed A/T, you would say there would be MORE M/T's than A/T's ?

Of course, dwindling MT inventories is/are self fulfilling !! If larger number of folks do NOT buy them, why would an oem in their right mind make excess inventory, that will not sell?

xwesx

ruking1 said:

I am not sure about what you are not sure of.

I'm saying that people want what they want. If there were a premium to get a MT for a given model, the people who want the MT will pay the premium to get it.

dudleyr

I would pay a premium for an MT.

dudleyr

stever said:

I have room in my garage down here and I'd be happy to exercise it for you.

Just driving it down there and back would double its yearly mileage. I just hit 27k before winter - on a 1995. Should last another 20 years pretty easily.

Low mileage Miatas are not super rare since so many of them were summer only up in the midwest.

stever

I don't remember any when I lived in the UP.

Then again, I don't remember any summer up there either.

That's crazy low miles. I thought I was doing good just to wind up with 99k on my '97 Outback when I sold it last year.

ruking1

xwesx said:

ruking1 said:

I am not sure about what you are not sure of.

I'm saying that people want what they want. If there were a premium to get a MT for a given model, the people who want the MT will pay the premium to get it.

Then it is more than clear why MT PVF is shrinking ! So in that sense there is agreement.

elias

nyccarguy said:

I'm here at the Chevy dealer with my Dad's Tahoe getting some warranty work done.  They have a used 2014 Cruze LS with a 6-Speed stick.  Asking $14K & change.

New ones are avaible for $17k probably with low rates. I drive a 2011 M6 LS, and would buy another Cruze. Recently I rented a 2015 LT which was nice, and much quicker than the LS, of course.

benjaminh

The new VW Golf SportWagen has just one manual transmission gas model—the base model with an msrp of $21,395. That's only $400 more than the comparable Golf 4-door model, which seems like a bargain. And it's actually pretty well equipped for that price, including alloy wheels, satellite radio, etc. The transmission is a 5-speed manual matched to a 1.8 turbo. Gets a good rating from C &

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-volkswagen-golf-sportwagen-first-drive-review

VW press release on the model:

http://media.vw.com/release/944/