Stories from the Sales Frontlines

isellhondas · April 2014

A question for the crowd....

I got a survey yesterday from a well known company asking me a few questions.

I didn't respond to the survey but one question did pique my interest.

How much profit do you think a car dealership should make on the new cars they sell?

Costco averages between 5 and 15% on the stuff they sell.

Anyone?

crkyolfrt · April 2014

Yes, I have reread it a number of times before posting it, and since. I will concede that my contempt for the word 'store' when used to describe a car dealership, has been building and I have wanted to post what I posted for a long time. I still feel strongly about what I said, and I knew that there would be some who would be nodding their head in agreement (although I'll be surprised if anyone dare support me here) when they read it, and others (more here though because there is no small amount of...how may I say it...kumbaya).

I read about ? or whoever it was, listed their sales practices and it was all on their terms. My way or the highway. And of course that is their prerogative, but some of what they said..e.g."How can you make an offer if you haven't even SEEN the car?" is ridiculous. A new 2014 blue Corolla with such and such an option pkg list, is a new 2014 blue Corolla with such and such an option pkg list. What's so special about the VIN on their lot? It sorta boils down to being resistant to being patronized and assumed lacking intelligence. Ya know? This type (some..not always, fortunately) of treatment that you read about on these forums and in showrooms the nation over, makes responses and posts like the one I posted, a sensitive and even passionate topic.

You sales guys want to passionately defend...and then there are those who want to passionately indicate why they have feelings of distrust.

abacomike · April 2014

@crkyolfrt said:

"Yes, I have reread it a number of times before posting it, and since. I will concede that my contempt for the word 'store' when used to describe a car dealership, has been building and I have wanted to post what I posted for a long time. "

OK, that makes sense to me and I can see where you are coming from. You did not display anger or bitterness.

Sometimes, when we hold things inside for too long, it erupts out if us without us realizing it.

I personally hate most car dealerships, and most people here know that. It 'a like walking into a snakepit.

There are always several ways to "erupt " about something - your first post was an angry post and your follow up post was a more sincere and objective post.

Thanks for your feedback - I too erupt at times!

boomchek · April 2014

@brian125 said:

Wow Brian. Nothing against you and your car buying method, but from the view point of someone who works in the business I'll tell you how we view these "best price" requests. And now I know why the closing ratio on an anonymous internet lead is so low. Most customers tend to use our best price against us no matter how good or low it is, therefore there isn't really much incentive to bother responding with a number other than "come on down".

So here what I see:

Internet Lead comes in from a customer looking for a "best price, "bottom line price" on a new car. Sometimes we get a call, or a fax asking the same. If it's on a Saturday and the customer is expecting an immediate answer, then that fax, phone note, or email print out will go right to the garbage. Why? It's probably quite busy (sales people and managers) that nobody is going to be grinding the manager for a price on a car for an anonymous internet shopper when there are real live people in the showroom waiting to be helped. It could be a serious buyer in the email, but from experience it could also be a bored kid, bored worker somewhere killing time, or someone who isn't even sure what they are buying. I remember responding to these (when I wasn't busy with real in showroom customers) and many times the customer asking for rock bottom pricing hasn't even sat in the car they wanted quotes on. They didn't know if it would fit them, they didn't know if that's the make they wanted, some didn't know if their spouse would even like it in the first place (and it was a car they were buying for their spouse).

So there isn't any real commitment to buy (regardless of what is said in the email), except an anonymous message asking a dealer to drop their pants on a car they're selling. What's in it for the dealer?

But let's just assume that out of the flaky best price requests, the 10% will be a Brian125 who's ready to buy a car. Here's why a dealership has very little to gain by giving out a quote:

-Price can and usually is shopped at other dealers, no matter how good it is

-Slim to none profit margin on the deal

-After sale CSI scores tend to be very low from price shoppers

-Very little chance of repeat business

-Very little chance of referral business

-Very little chance of customer coming in for servicing

-When trade ins are thrown in at the last minute, these customers typically expect the world for them, and when a dealer already has no margin in the new car deal, he can't overallow on the trade, making this whole process a waste of everyone's time.

So when an email like this comes in, and there's a customer standing in the showroom, the showroom customer will always get the priority and more attention.

driver100 · April 2014

@crkyolfrt said:So....salespersons that refer to their car dealership as a store, automatically lose credibility

I don't see any reason to get upset about Ford or a salesman calling a dealership a store. This is just a technique companies use to make the experience sound friendly. In a sales course I took they said we shouldn't ask a perspective client to sign a "contract"...that's a scarry word. Better to say "agreement", far friendlier. John T Malloy who has written best sellers and advises companies on sales tactics (probably better to use the term techniques -friendlier) advises not to wear green when you are selling, and don't use green in your adds. Green reminds people about money and it makes them realize they are going to be losing some in a few minutes.

Many companies try to make the experience of selling less painful. Having sales associates is friendlier than salesperson. I think most of us are smart enough to know what "store" means, and we know why they use the term.

boomchek · April 2014

@abacomike‌

Regarding dealership staffing and turnover, the worst place I ever worked at was at a local GM dealer.

-15 sales guys in total (12 on the floor, 3 doing their own thing on their own schedule)

-At mid month (in May), the dealer had 15 total (new and used) cars out for the month between all 15 sales guys

-Out of the 15 sales guys, 7 of them started the same day I did

-Out of the remaining 8, 5 of them were there less than 3 months

-Out of the remaining 3, 2 of them were there a year, and one about 20 years (old timer working repeat customers)

I was there two days, and when not one up walked in the door for the whole dealership for the 2 days, I bailed. Not worth my time.

driver100 · April 2014

@oldfarmer50 said:
I think you worry too much about Craigslist killers coming to test drive. Yeah that happens but probably more people get car jacked just driving down the street.

True, I am just going to the extreme to make my point. But, lots can go wrong when you try to sell a car privately. You're right, and I wouldn't argue the point, developing a relationship doesn't mean anything for many buyers....but, it could for others. I know people who just go back to the same salesman every 3 years and buy a car and trust they will get a good deal.

driver100 · April 2014

@brian125 said:Do you think it would be possible to buy over 1000 vehicles in my day for myself, family, and friends of friends

Please give us a breakdown of how you purchased these 1000 cars...that is, how many a year for friends, yourself, friends of friends etc.

graphicguy · April 2014

@oldfarmer50 said:

OldFarmer...
In making my offers, I try to get a feel for stock situations that the dealers have. I keep up on if that particular brand, model I'm interested in has been selling, rebates, trunk money, etc.

I take all that and add tax, title, lic, and make one number offers. If they ask how I came up with my number, I ordinarily have a spreadsheet showing all the numbers (much like the dealerships have when they print out their contracts). That way, there is no question what my offer is, how I came up with the number(s), where the numbers came from. The most pushback I get is "see, you forgot the doc fee". I always reply..."no I didn't...I am paying the state mandated license and doc fees which I have a line item for". That's when they start with how their doc fee can't be removed. I know that we don't have a deal at that point. That's also why I tend to deal with the same dealer groups and sales people. They know I'm serious when I walk in the door, and that if they have the car I want, it's a quick and easy sale.

It doesn't happen often, but it has happened a couple of times that I've gone to 3 different dealers and all of them turned down my offer. I either misjudged the demand or the supply. In both instances, I was trying to buy a car that was both popular, and in short supply.

So yes, I readjusted my offer up and started the process all over again. If you don't make a deal the first time you visit, but return for a 2nd go round, the dealership has a pretty good idea you're serious.

I have found that unless you're in their dealership, willing to make a deal, you're not going to get the dealer's serious attention and serious pricing..

As Boom, Craig, etc have pointed out, anyone can give you any price on the pone or via an email. The price may or may not be doable. Their objective is to get you into the showroom, where money can change hands and signatures can be secured.

Is my way the only way to buy a car? Heavens no! Is it the right way? It's the right way for me, and has served me well. I know exactly how much I'm paying before I even walk into the dealership....down to the penny. I can't fathom making that kind of a purchase without knowing exactly what I'm paying before walking in their store.

abacomike · April 2014

@crkyolfrt said:
Yes, I have reread it a number of times before posting it, and since. I will concede that my contempt for the word 'store' when used to describe a car dealership, has been building and I have wanted to post what I posted for a long time. I still feel strongly about what I said, and I knew that there would be some who would be nodding their head in agreement (although I'll be surprised if anyone dare support me here) when they read it, and others (more here though because there is no small amount of...how may I say it...kumbaya).

I read about ? or whoever it was, listed their sales practices and it was all on their terms. My way or the highway. And of course that is their prerogative, but some of what they said..e.g."How can you make an offer if you haven't even SEEN the car?" is ridiculous. A new 2014 blue Corolla with such and such an option pkg list, is a new 2014 blue Corolla with such and such an option pkg list. What's so special about the VIN on their lot? It sorta boils down to being resistant to being patronized and assumed lacking intelligence. Ya know? This type (some..not always, fortunately) of treatment that you read about on these forums and in showrooms the nation over, makes responses and posts like the one I posted, a sensitive and even passionate topic.

You sales guys want to passionately defend...and then there are those who want to passionately indicate why they have feelings of distrust.

In all the years I have been posting here on Edmunds, I've never once been "cited" for a problem with my posts. But today, for the first time in 4 years, you "flagged" my post in response to your post with an ABUSE flag. You can do what you want, what you choose, what you desire, but you have alerted EDMUNDS to the fact that you think what I posted was ABUSIVE and unacceptable. Interesting that you would do that - I guess you were so very angry with me (like you were as evidence by your first post about stores and dealerships" that you chose to complain to EDMUNDS about me.

Well, there is nothing I can do to change that - you have a right to complain to the EDMUNDS folks that my posts are ABUSIVE but that's OK. If I get banned from this site, I get banned, it's no skin off my back. But I don't think anyone has ever given an ABUSIVE rating to a poster here as long as I can remember.

Do what you want, that's your choice. But you are still angry at just about everyone and everything associated with car sales - too bad - it just goes to show ya!!!!

abacomike · April 2014

POSTING HERE IS JUST NOT WORTH THE ABUSE

I guess I'm finished here - as evidenced by my receiving an ABUSE complaint. Been great knowing all of you - the emails I received from EDMUNDS tells it all.

Good luck all, see you sometime!

ab348 · April 2014

@crkyolfrt said:
And secondly, every time I see a salesman (actively employed or retired) refer to an automotive dealership as a "store" (a newly coined marketing term for a car dealership that has only been in use for less than a decade), I just wanna spit in contempt.

FWIW, when I was in university in the mid-70s I had to do a paper that involved interviewing a local businessman. I picked the owner of one of the Chevy dealers in town, who had a good reputation in the community. He amazed me by readily agreeing to the interview one evening in his office. I can tell you that in 1976, he used the term "store" constantly.

crkyolfrt · April 2014

I'm not saying I did, and I'm not saying I didn't, but you DID call me vindictive, obnoxious and bitter. NOWHERE did I indicate my post was directed to you. And you took my post the way you decided to take as indicated above. It doesn't make you correct. As a defender of the trade, you took offense.
Furthermore, no one appreciates having words put in their mouth, so that too might be why you got flagged.

Perhaps you will notice that I also got two posts flagged, and NEITHER one could be considered abusive by anyone's estimation unless they too had an axe to grind because the mirror was maybe held a little close for a too vivid reflection..I suspect that you were not the cause of my flagged posts however.

Not having a 'dislike' button, leaves someone no other option to indicate their disgruntlement. All it takes is for someone to decide they're going to be on your case and you can gain abuse flags in no time short..
In rereading your first reply to my first post, it is still evident to me that you really came on defensively and I'm not surprised you got flagged. Too bad about your last post, because prior to that I had taken your 2nd last post to heart. Anyway...true colours and all that perhaps is applicable.

crkyolfrt · April 2014

@abacomike said:
POSTING HERE IS JUST NOT WORTH THE ABUSE

I guess I'm finished here - as evidenced by my receiving an ABUSE complaint. Been great knowing all of you - the emails I received from EDMUNDS tells it all.

Good luck all, see you sometime!

Nah..you stay, Mike, I'll go.

brian125 · April 2014

Boomchek

I'm not surprised by the negitive feed back i get with my buying method. I usually will get a response like you posted about me from the sales front. My money is the same color wheather i'm in your store buying or seuring the deal on the phone.. The smart dealerships or MGR. takes my business. They always do............ always

Let me ask you a question... Your a sales guy or in the business. If Your the Int mgr. or the sales boss I call to speak with you. I let you know I'm looking for a immediate sale today if we could agree on a price. I tell you i'm not comming in but i will finance the vechicle thru your store if it nets you a few more dollars.

My offer to your dealership is X price for the sale that moment .. Yes or No.. Now i'm not asking you for your idea of a price or your best price. If you tell me you cant meet this price i may counter back with a lower price if i want the vehicle from your dealership. i may ask you to think it over and call me back otherwise good bye if you cant answer the calling bell... I'm bascially 10 moves ahead on you for what i'm looking for in price and some add on's if i cant get my price.

All negotiations are give and take on both sides.. Supply and demand, knowing how and when to buy and who has the leverage are all part of making a good deal.

Whats your response... You have a legit sale kissing you in the face.. I'm hoping its not ......... I'm to busy Brian or come down and we will talk.. Wrong answer you blew a sale..

Tell me how you handle my call knowing i will buy that moment.

. I'm not shopping your price around town and my price might be alot lower than all the un- educated buyers are paying in your dealership. Remember i'm calling you direct like i was sitting in your office. Can you close the deal with me..

abcomike, boomchek, Driver, Isel. i enjoy reading your posts and feedback even if i dont agree. I have the utmost repect for you all.. Were just on opposite ends of the table.

Driver................. to answer you question. I bought 10 vehicles on the last day of one month. Via phone sale.. Credit card deposit hold , buyers order fax buy, and for the closer dealerships my friends went right to the dealership check in hand.

Years ago i may have average 4 or 5 vehicles purchased a month online /via phone on the 2 to last day or last day of that month.. When i was younger i helped alot of folks buy vehicles... Some years close to 100 vehicles. Since then I slowed down.. These days You will find me on the golf coarse 3 to 5 times a week.. just love the game. I told my wife I wanted to go on the senior golf circut years ago but she threatened to leave me... she put me in place.. lol

boomchek · April 2014

@‌ Brian125

I know your money is the same whether you're sitting in an office or you're on the phone. The problem is when you're calling I do not know whether you're serious or not. I can tell just by talking to someone that walks on the lot within 5 minutes if they're buyers, tire kickers, or out for a stroll. So if you're calling on a busy weekend, and nobody gets back to you, it's probably because the showroom customers get more priority than phone ups.

Now I don't know how many times I've given price over the phone where someone asked if we can do $xxxxx on a car, we said yes, and then we never heard back from them again. They either shopped it or they're calling on behalf of grandmother's friend's cousin's daughter who isn't even sure if she's buying a car in the first place. So that's another reason there is reluctance of giving out numbers over the phone.

Now if you call, and make a ridiculous offer on the phone that I know can't be done, then I would tell you right away no. If you ask me for a counter offer, I won't even give one, because that shows me that your initial offer was pulled out of who-knows-where and you have no clue about what the car you want to buy sells for or the margins or incentives on it.

If you call and give me your name and number and sound serious, and the price is doable, then of course I'd say yes, but I would require you to put a credit card deposit over the phone right away to hold the car and the deal. At month end it does get hectic and typically dealers won't hold cars or low gross deals with zero commitment, especially for someone on the phone.

If the model you're calling about does have a unique option/color combo, or there is only one in town because it's month end, then it is likely that a dealer will say no to a low offer.

And when you call, a good salesperson knows to ask the right questions before agreeing to deal on the phone:

-have you seen the car you're buying in person?

-have you driven it?

-do you know which color/options you want?

-are you financing or paying cash?

-if we agree on the price, are you giving us a deposit?

-once we agree on the price, when can you come get the car?

-is there a trade?

-has your trade been appraised?

-do you owe money on it?

-if yes, how much?

-etc.....

So that's why most people price shopping need to come in to the dealership. There is a million things that need to be figured out before a deal can even take place. The price, in many cases, is the least to worry about.

brian125 · April 2014

boom said

If you call and give me your name and number and sound serious, and the price is doable, then of course I'd say yes, but I would require you to put a credit card deposit over the phone right away to hold the car and the deal. At month end it does get hectic and typically dealers won't hold cars or low gross deals with zero commitment, especially for someone on the phone.

Boomchek

This is how and why i buy so many vehicles via phone with credit card deposit.. for friends. Straight out deals.

Good job.... boom you sold me a vehicle.. A trade in is a different Transaction. Supply and demand vehicles and colors are a different kind of leverage for the dealers.. I may squeeze you for a certain color or model you dont have asking for that same price to swap or get for me..

Yes you said all the right answers for a sale with me .. Outside all the other stuff that i dont need, test drives etc.. This is how i buy.. I would bet our conversation and negotiation would be about 3 mins to agree on price. Is it possible to do this 10 times in one day?/ Yes. Considering all that other stuff you mentioned thats not how i buy or leave waiting in the wings for dealerships..

boomchek · April 2014

@brian125‌
>

I find the new generation salesman to be lazy not knowing there product , pricing or Incentives. These young folks cant answer the easiest questions how in the world are they going to sell me a vehicle. They cant... Most of these sales kids have no sales skills what so ever. They resort to lies and twisting truths to lure you in and holding you there to the real negotiator/ mgr. comes to close the deal.... The car industry takes advantage of the un-educated buyers with there shamless tactic's. These folks have nobody to blame but themselves for not educating themselves.

You know what the funny thing is about that statement? Many of the guys who know their product either left the business or moved on into upscale brands or higher positions, or into other areas of the automotive industry. And one of the biggest reasons is because of shoppers like you (not to be mean, but let me explain).

I've been in the business 10 years. I could tell you everything about the brands I was selling and how it competes to every other brand on the market. Being a car guy I knew my stuff, and I loved sharing it with my customers who walked in the showroom. But when I spent an hour or two with a client educating them about our new products, technologies, and walking them through the buying process only to lose a deal to another same brand dealer over $50-$100, then I basically spent my day volunteering info, giving my knowledge away for free. And it can get tiring, when I went through 5-6 such customers on a busy Saturday, get no deals, then I would start to think what is the point in being up to date on the newest technologies, products, incentives, etc when all that people care is about the price???? Even if I would get a deal after a grind down, I'd earn a whopping $150 or so commission.

There is no point then for me to be in an environment like this, trying to help someone find the right car only to be beat over the head with low ball offers, and threats to buy elsewhere even though it was me who helped the customer pick the car.

So basically by making skinny low ball, minimum margin offers, you are making a statement that intelligent, knowledgeable car guys who love their craft and know their stuff are not important to you. You don't need their expertise, or their knowledge because you do the research yourself. All you care about is the price. It's fine but then don't be wondering why all that's left is kids who don't care or know anything because all you need then is just a minimum wage order taker who will take your offer and make sure the car is washed before you pick it up. You get what you pay for my friend.

imidazol97 · April 2014

@graphicguy said:
The most pushback I get is "see, you forgot the doc fee". I always reply..."no I didn't...I am paying the state mandated license and doc fees which I have a line item for".

Actually there is NO state required doc fee in Ohio unless I've overlooked something. I read the ORC (Ohio Revised Code) when we bought the Cobalt and a year later I read it again. In fact, I had a copy of the relevant section in my briefcase. It applies to time contracts (borrowing the money) as a payment (in addition to the kickbacks, I guess) for filling in the loan contracts. (Aren't they done by a computer these days?) It does not applied to cash/cashier check/personal check.

It also doesn't mandate $250; it says it can be up to $250. I am fairly dumb but I can read the ORC better than the dealer association does. The dealer keeps saying they have to charge everyone the same amount and it has to be $250. I told them this time I had allocated $100 to cover their office work and they could do as they pleased however they worked it in.

brian125 · April 2014

boomchek

To many dealerships 2 sets of pricing = Trouble

I agree with your post.. I feel for you. THE Problem you described was created by your company. Setting 2 different prices for a vehicle . Telling me there is a dealer-hold back. This puts you in price wars with the public. A miserable position to be in.. Again thats your problem to coupe with.. Set one price for the car take it or leave it.. Dont make this a big game on price. Then adding more insults to the business adding another 100 dealerships. I think the auto industry needs fixing.

I find the younger gen puts no effort into knowing the basic's.. Why? Thats all I ask. How do these kids not know what there dealership doc fee charges are? The shopper who will waste 2 hours of your time and it leads to nowhere. Thats the bad about your business you meet them all.. I on the otherhand will tell you within 2 mins what i want and need if i walk into your dealership.. No beating arount the bush i need very little time.... for a book.... a sit in and i'm out.. If i do a test drive that dealership and salesman gets first opportunity to earn my busiiness.

imidazo197-- alway put your dealers high doc fee charge into your asking price to buy making it a wash on the bill of sale. Florida doc fee= 699. is that increditable or what

driver100 · April 2014

@brian125 said:Credit card deposit hold , buyers order fax buy, and for the closer dealerships my friends went right to the dealership check in hand.

Thanks for answering how you got to 1000 sales Brian. I don't know how you can please that many people and have no problems.

I bought my 1986 Celebrity from a broker. When I finally took delivery I discovered the car didn't have air conditioning. He was all embarrassed but he sent me to an after market place to have an a/c put in . Well, it wasn't quite the same. I would rather deal directly with the salesperson in these matters, if something is done wrong the dealership will have to fix it. You leave out something on the paperwork or get the wrong color and your "free" client will be very upset. I also wouldn't want to take on that responsibility of buying a car for someone else that way.

driver100 · April 2014

@abacomike said
I guess I'm finished here - as evidenced by my receiving an ABUSE complaint.

No one should let that bother them. You can't please all the people all of the time....and it is easy to be misunderstood. It's not worth taking anything here that serious. Since you have taught in some pretty rough schools Mike this should be like water off a ducks back. A flag means very little, now 10 flags, and there could be a problem. I didn't even know there was such a thing as a flag until it was mentioned.

brian125 · April 2014

Driver,

Hey boomchek just sold me a new vehicle.. Thats how easy it was.. and is.. i dont mess with used vehicles for folks..

Trade ins, bad credit, not ready to buy, dont know what i want is not what i do. If you want x model i tell you do your homework first.. Find me the dealerships you want to go to.. Then i'll negotiate a good or great deal for you its your choice on price.... But you need to be ready to buy the day you say your ready.. If i have to find dealerships, get doc fee charges, call to find out dealers names, and numbers that to me seems like a job.. Thats what i make you do..... I'll negotiate the deal for you.

brian125 · April 2014

I enjoyed our talks today. I have a 630 am Tee time in NJ. tomm gotta rest.. See you guys around the dial...

berri · April 2014

I have to wonder whether over the next decade how Auto dealerships will change. I don't see them going away because of the trade-in, but wonder if they will be sized down to basically just do demo rides and sell used cars, while buyers will then go to the Internet and custom order what they want from the factory, but then take delivery at the dealer? The Amazon concept takes a lot of inventory cost out of the selling equation and a process like that would also enhance plant manufacturing by minimizing the cost of goods sold - get an order, Just In Time the parts from the vendor and make it (similar to the Dell computer approach). The manufacturer then pays the dealership a fixed fee for handling the vehicle. Consumers may like that approach, but I see it having possible drawbacks too - possible loss of impulse buyers and can the manufacturer promote the cars and selling process as well as dealer s can today? It seems like it can be done with high priced goods. For Sale By Owner sites are cutting into formal real estate broker turf these days. Interesting stuff to ponder.

snakeweasel · April 2014

@driver100 said:

I will say this, Einstein was wrong, not everyone is a genius, there are some pretty stupid people out there (our recent posts about warning labels proves that). Part of being a genius is the ability to have original, critical thoughts. There are way to many people out there that don't have a thought in their head until someone else puts it there.

This is why we have people who have sworn gluten without even knowing what gluten is or why some people should.

nyccarguy · April 2014

@sterlingdog‌

I'm with @boomcheck. I appreciate your kind words as always. I'm still the same Bradd you know & love. I just put up with a lot less crap than I used to (at work). The majority of my customers are good, honest, & hard working people. I tread them with the utmost care and respect that they expect & deserve. There are a few that just bother me a lot more than they used to.

snakeweasel · April 2014

@crkyolfrt said:
And secondly, every time I see a salesman (actively employed or retired) refer to an automotive dealership as a "store" (a newly coined marketing term for a car dealership that has only been in use for less than a decade), I just wanna spit in contempt.

Why? A store is a room or building where things are sold. Sounds like a dealership to me.

graphicguy · April 2014

@imidazol97 said:
Actually there is NO state required doc fee in Ohio unless I've overlooked something. I read the ORC (Ohio Revised Code) when we bought the Cobalt and a year later I read it again. In fact, I had a copy of the relevant section in my briefcase. It applies to time contracts (borrowing the money) as a payment (in addition to the kickbacks, I guess) for filling in the loan contracts. (Aren't they done by a computer these days?) It does not applied to cash/cashier check/personal check.

It also doesn't mandate $250; it says it can be up to $250. I am fairly dumb but I can read the ORC better than the dealer association does. The dealer keeps saying they have to charge everyone the same amount and it has to be $250. I told them this time I had allocated $100 to cover their office work and they could do as they pleased however they worked it in.

YEP....you're right.

Last time I had a dealer say that to me was when I was in their F&I office. The guy there told me it was a "state mandated" fee of $250. I asked him to show me where I could find that law, so I could look it up. Of course he couldn't. If there are legit state/local fees that are legitimately mandated by whichever gov't agency, I'll pay it.

It was several years ago, but the dealer in question insisted it was state required.. That deal fell apart quickly at the last minute.

I personally believe respect is a two way street. If a buyer wants respect, they should offer respect. If the sales person wants respect, the same is true.

I've heard dealership's referred to as "stores" for as long as I've been buying cars....25+ years.

Viewing car buying as an adversarial relationship benefits no one, on either side of the desk.

stickguy · April 2014

I don't see the buying process going all internet ordering. Many people will still want to buy something they can see, and take it that day (or the next). besides, dealers go on line now to locate what you want (at port, other dealers, etc.), and with many brands you can go to the brand site and locate anywhere in the country. So not much really is changing.

if you want a special configuration, you can order today (depending on the brand of course, forget it with a Honda!). Not many people want to wait 6 weeks for their new car though.

oldfarmer50 · April 2014

@isellhondas said:
A question for the crowd....

I got a survey yesterday from a well known company asking me a few questions.

I didn't respond to the survey but one question did pique my interest.

How much profit do you think a car dealership should make on the new cars they sell?

Costco averages between 5 and 15% on the stuff they sell.

Anyone?

I wouldn't participate in a survey that asked such a stupid question. In a capitalist economy a business is entitled to try to make as much profit as possible. It's also my right to try to pay as little as I can.

Wonder why no one ever complains about the mark up on a Gucci handbag or Prada shoes.

driver100 · April 2014

@snakeweasel said: Einstein was wrong, not everyone is a genius, there are some pretty stupid people out there

I don't think Einstein meant that. What he was saying, I believe is, you don't necessarily have to be good academically - in a formal educaional atmosphere, like a school, college or university, to be a genius. Einstein got terrible report cards. He was bored in school, he was thinking of things way beyond the classroom when he had to sit and listen to a teacher drone on

I guess the best way to say it is; Not all genius's are good academically. Apple was created by college dropouts Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, and there are lots of those kind of stories.

graphicguy · April 2014

Oldfarmer...you bring up a good point. Markups on items like designer handbags, or jewelry, or our beloved watches isn't something most think about. If you want it, you pay for it.

If you're a private entity (like most car dealers), it's none of my business what the dealer makes.

That being said, in the not so distant past, what a car cost was something of a mystery. There really wasn't a "price tag" (Monroney sticker) on cars. There was a certain amount of hucksterism in trying to buy a car.

Even with the birth of the MSRP, the dealer channel themselves invited the "grind" routine, birthing the "if I, will you?" routine. The consumer didn't make up "Invoice" pricing. That came from the manufacturers and dealerships. Then, they used it as a marketing tool, and came up with "supplier pricing", or "Family pricing", or whatever flavor of the month they want to use to get customers in the door.

I have no issue with any of that. It's capitalism.

Auto sales have almost taken on the plan "sell razors cheap, so we can sell more profitable razor blades" type business model. Dealerships may indeed go skinny on a new retail sale in order to get the customer into the more profitable service bay, or to buy very profitable warranty and financial products.

Someone mentioned that all the information one needs about a car is available on the internet. It is. I still want to test drive. If the test drive doesn't meet my expectations, what's the point in even consummating a deal? We won't even get to the offer or term sheet if I don't like the car. In today's world, there's no such thing as "What you see is what you get" as far as new car sales. Dealers always offer to find the car I want, or even order it for me (especially BMW) if they don't have the exact car I'm seeking. Again, I don't ask for this, it's offered.

While it's no longer just "presenting the specifics of the product" that sales people do, their roll to find a car that fits what I want is something that I would think is in their job description.

I don't want to tell anyone how to do their job. I'm not going to go through histrionics to try to find a car. I know what I'm going to pay going in. I WON'T do business with someone I don't trust. I'm not going to hide my trade (not that I could if I wanted to). This is a business transaction. Honesty, on both sides of the table, rules the day. That's why I buy from the people I do, and why, for the most part, they've been successful. They've built up a clientele who like doing business with them. They've been at their particular stores for a long, long time.

Those who just want me as a customer once, will not get the chance.

driver100 · April 2014

@graphicguy said: The dealer keeps saying they have to charge everyone the same amount and it has to be $250.

If the dealer has to charge $250 doc fee, that's OK, he just has to deduct $250 from the price of the car. Might even save you a few $$s sales tax!

oldfarmer50 · April 2014

"...but you are still angry about everyone and everything..."

Mike, what would you expect from a poster whose screen name spells out "cranky old fart"? Don't let a pot stirrer get your goat. Some people thrive on drama.

abacomike · April 2014

@oldfarmer50‌ said:

"Mike, what would you expect from a poster whose screen name spells out "cranky old fart"? Don't let a pot stirrer get your goat. Some people thrive on drama."

I was just flabbergasted that he would send notification to Edmunds that I was an abusive individual. He said "maybe I did, maybe I didn't". I would never do that to anyone.

Even he admitted his post was over the top, but that was after he sent the notification.

I am quite upset, to say the least.

imidazol97 · April 2014

I recommend both parties just ignore each other's posts. That's what I've done with people in the past when I didn't like something posted.

These posts have gone on since last evening. It's time we get on about the business of this forum. Time to move on. smiley

genericram · April 2014

The lion's share of the time I invest in trading cars is spent doing online research.

I like to arrive at the dealership in my well-polished trade and look up a no-nonsense internet-savvy sales person. I try to be as pleasant and appreciative as is possible while staying honest. I show him or her mine, and get shown what he or she has. I leave with an offer that is high, of course, taking no offense, and saying I'm going to do some more looking, but thank the sales person for his or her time. I say I'll get back to them, and I do, with what I feel is a low , but doable offer by email.... It's worked for me a couple of times. I don't think it hurts that I haven't taken up gobs of the sales person's time. I can usually beat TMV or Truecar all to pieces. Got to admit that picking the right dealer helps, too. It also helps that if I bought the car I'm trading at the same dealership, to refer them back to THAT deal, so they know from whence I'm coming.

No face to face arguing......I write them a check, shake hands........no sales floor ballet.

sterlingdog · April 2014

@abacomike said:
oldfarmer50‌ said:

"Mike, what would you expect from a poster whose screen name spells out "cranky old fart"? Don't let a pot stirrer get your goat. Some people thrive on drama."

I was just flabbergasted that he would send notification to Edmunds that I was an abusive individual. He said "maybe I did, maybe I didn't". I would never do that to anyone.

Even he admitted his post was over the top, but that was after he sent the notification.

I am quite upset, to say the least.

Mike, don't give it another thought. He was a flash in the pan I think; he's gone now. I never even understood his point----store, dealership? Why does either term make any difference? I don't even think that the term "car lot" is bad. I grew up using that term. After all, the cars are sitting on a lot, right? People get so hung up on words. HGTV has begun calling any bathroom within a mile of a bedroom an "ensuite". I laugh my head off when I hear that term. It takes a lot more than a shower and a "john" to make an "ensuite".

I did learn one thing from your experience. I didn't even know what those flags were about to be perfectly honest. I would click on one now just to see what happens, but I don't want to harm a poster. You know me. Just like pulling wires, there's no telling what damage I might do. Mike, I don't know about you but, at my age, if I got flagged here on Edmunds, it would only mean that my heart is still beating and that I have a pulse. Let's move on to more fun things.

Richard

boomchek · April 2014

@brian125‌

I totally agree with you about dealer oversaturation. Here in Vancouver, it takes about 1-1.5 hours to cross the whole city and its subrurbs from west to east, and about 1 hour north to south.

The Honda store I worked at had 3 other stores within a 20 minute drive.

The luxury brands are now even expanding building new showrooms but business is slow for them, and they wonder why, even though there is a lot of money floating around Vancouver.

I think a lot, if not most of the business these new dealers get is from servicing, rather than sales. I took my son for a drive and went to check out a new mini automall that was just built with BMW, Benz, and Audi dealers all side by side. It was a ghost town in there.

And yes, sales staff should know a bare minimum but it's how management trains them to answer calls.

I was talking with my brother in law who called a Kia dealership that had a used Infiniti G35. The ad he called off had no price or mileage.

All he did was ask what the price was. He got the "come on down" spiel, it's a nice car, you'll love it, we'll make sure you love it, etc.....

After being on the phone for 5 minutes and not being able to find out the price he hung up.

My old manager at another dealer I worked at was the same way. No price or mileage on any ads. We'd get a ton of calls from people just wanting the basics, price and mileage. Once they got it they said ok thanks and hung up.

He wondered why we were getting so many calls and small number of appointments. I told him that a bulk of the calls were just people calling for basic info. He believed that prices do not sell cars, people did. Of course now when I look at their website I see prices and mileage listed in their ads.

isellhondas · April 2014

@crkyolfrt said:
I'm not saying I did, and I'm not saying I didn't, but you DID call me vindictive, obnoxious and bitter. NOWHERE did I indicate my post was directed to you. And you took my post the way you decided to take as indicated above. It doesn't make you correct. As a defender of the trade, you took offense.
Furthermore, no one appreciates having words put in their mouth, so that too might be why you got flagged.

Perhaps you will notice that I also got two posts flagged, and NEITHER one could be considered abusive by anyone's estimation unless they too had an axe to grind because the mirror was maybe held a little close for a too vivid reflection..I suspect that you were not the cause of my flagged posts however.

Not having a 'dislike' button, leaves someone no other option to indicate their disgruntlement. All it takes is for someone to decide they're going to be on your case and you can gain abuse flags in no time short..
In rereading your first reply to my first post, it is still evident to me that you really came on defensively and I'm not surprised you got flagged. Too bad about your last post, because prior to that I had taken your 2nd last post to heart. Anyway...true colours and all that perhaps is applicable.

Well, I see you got me too. you flagged me as ABUSE!

I have to say, I've been on these forums since they started in (I think) 1996 and I have NEVER had anything like this happen.

I have had an occasional conflict but I try to temper my responses and pull my punches. I think the moderators know this.

To do such a thing was petty. Reminds me of the elementary school tattletale.

Probably made you feel like a big man.

From this point forward, please refrain from responding to anything I post.

isellhondas · April 2014

@abacomike said:
oldfarmer50‌ said:

"Mike, what would you expect from a poster whose screen name spells out "cranky old fart"? Don't let a pot stirrer get your goat. Some people thrive on drama."

I was just flabbergasted that he would send notification to Edmunds that I was an abusive individual. He said "maybe I did, maybe I didn't". I would never do that to anyone.

Even he admitted his post was over the top, but that was after he sent the notification.

I am quite upset, to say the least.

Mike, he did the same thing to me.

Maybe if ignored he will simply go away as people like him have gone away in the past.

He showed us what he is made of. Please join me in ignoring him.

crkyolfrt · April 2014

@oldfarmer50 said:
"...but you are still angry about everyone and everything..."

Mike, what would you expect from a poster whose screen name spells out "cranky old fart"? Don't let a pot stirrer get your goat. Some people thrive on drama.

I attempted to send this as a PM to oldfarmer50, abacomike, sterlingdog, imidazol97 and isellhondas - but it froze when sending and since you are still posting, it would appear you have not received the private message, so I will post it and the original post I was not going to post publically.

It is below:

I was going to post this but in an effort to let this drop (publically at least) I decided to send it to you both.

It starts with in reference to your post to me oldfarmer. FWIW, I see that someone has decided to really attack my character by shooting even more abuses at me. I find these anonymous acts quite cowardess. I guess it shouldn't come as any great surprise given the accusations and assumptions leveled at me so far.

I may express the odd opinion with passion, but I am NOT a pot stirrer! Why am I not, once in a blue moon, entitled to not unreasonable form of free speech on this forum, as is expressed by so many of the rest of you regulars? Is this an open forum or not? That is NOT a rhetorical question, farmer.

I get that you guys want to step in and stroke each other's ego and show support for your fellow kumbaya camp fire buddy. Unfortunately, that's whether he was right....or wrong. Since he was wrong and out of line, then for you to post what you did just now, makes YOU the pot stirrer. Do you not see that? Also not a rhetorical question.

If you think that I am some troll who doesn't deserve the same free speech as you do, think again and look over the hundreds of posts I have done in the past to try to help other members troubleshoot a problem with their cars. Often some of my input goes far beyond an automotive topic. I will admit that I have a strong personality, but if you met me in person, you simply would not meet a more genuine and sincere person. A bit too passionate at times, but I admit I am far from perfect. Four of my closest friends I have known for between 44 and 50 of my 59 years. Shallow, fake, pot-stirrers do not keep friends that long.

I come from a family of educators. They (not me) are among the most self-righteous group of personalities there is...and will never ever admit they were wrong about anything. I see this in politics too.

I have read this forum for YEARS, even though I don't post here very often and it is because you (assumedly all, since I don't seem to be getting not one speck of support from anyone yet...although they do take the effort to flag even non confrontational posts) all seem to support each other as long as you are either a car salesman or a pot licker...and simply don't allow anyone else to express an opinion.

I don't come on here and tell you how objectionable some of the egotistic idle yap is to me about fancy extravagant watches that cost more than my car, or your fancy cars that cost more than my home. It is because I try to allow others to live their lives their way, and I don't think I am too outta line in expecting others to allow me my opinion about some things. But when I decide to finally indicate an (admittedly strong) opinion about the term store being used when refering to a car dealership, Mike comes back with a hammer. Why do you feel the need to gang up and shoot me down? And the maturity level here is sorely lacking. I don't agree with anyone enabling Mike and his reaction to one abuse flag that he ASSUMED was generated by me, that if he can't have his own way, takes his ball and pouts off to go home. I've seen this happen to him previously on another forum. And I've seen it happen to others here and elsewhere too. You guys are not all as perfect as you seem to think you all are. You all come back eventually and then exchange hugs all around..."gee, we missed you!" That will happen once again when the dust settles. Let it settle already.

The disagreement had finished. It was done, but someone decided to PM Mike and point out that he got flagged. I don't see you accusing that guy of pot-stirring. So then Mike comes back disgruntled again.

And as for my screen name, I might be mistaken, but I could almost swear I have in years past seen you, farmer, refer to yourself as an old fart. And while I can't recall if you used 'cranky' or not, it might have been crotchey or curmudgeonly or some other self-labeled form of endearment not intended to be taken literally but often used with old fart. And I admit it may not have been you but you can't sit there with a straight face and tell me that you haven't see those types of terms used for older guys who have been through a lot in this world and rarely is the term ever intended to be taken literally.

Anyway, it looks like no one other than me is anxious to let this drama drop. Sometimes people take pleasure out of seeing other's pain. Why not let it drop? Your comment: "Some people thrive on drama" is more than just a bit ironic. I wasn't going to post again and Mike would have come back when his pout was over and you guys could have had your got-yer-back-buddy hugs and carried on in your own private little stroke-party here..and you still can...but please resist the urge to put words in my mouth and not make personal unfair and inaccurate accusations.

sent to: oldfarmer50, abacomike

Michaell · April 2014

isell / mike -

Here's my take. On our old forum software there really wasn't a way to 'flag' posts. The new software we rolled out in December does. Kind of like a shiny new toy - something for people to play with.

While we're encouraging our members - both old and new - to try out the new software, don't read anything into the abuse flag. We all get frustrated from time to time, and now there is a way to note this frustration if it pertains to a specific post.

Just like you shouldn't get too excited when someone does a 'thumbs up' on a post.

Keep calm and post away.

jayrider · April 2014

With all due respect, I love all this conflict . It's much more entertaining that everyone patting each other on the back.

fezo · April 2014

@Michaell@Edmunds said:
isell / mike -

Here's my take. On our old forum software there really wasn't a way to 'flag' posts. The new software we rolled out in December does. Kind of like a shiny new toy - something for people to play with.

While we're encouraging our members - both old and new - to try out the new software, don't read anything into the abuse flag. We all get frustrated from time to time, and now there is a way to note this frustration if it pertains to a specific post.

Just like you shouldn't get too excited when someone does a 'thumbs up' on a post.

Keep calm and post away.

I know there had been a way to just delete posts that devolve into chaos.

For quick and easy negotiating my Mazda 6 wins some kind of prize. I just happened on it at a dealer 60 miles away. He was asking about $8,500. I emailed and said how far away and that I wasn't interested at that price but was at $6,500. He sent an email that said he was sure we could "work something out." I responded that I wasn't going that far for a vague "work something out." I did say that if the car was as advertised and passed a mechanic's inspection (I'd already found a mechanic in his town) I'd be there check in hand. He responded that $6,500 it is. He did then mention "you know it's a stick, not an automatic." I replied that had it been an automatic I wouldn't have contacted him.

Once we found the dealership (wedged in a little spot but chock full of nice cars) the deal was done in nothing flat.

Let's get off this distracting stuff and someone explain this to me. Why in every restaurant you see there are signs saying employees must wash hands before going back to work yet in hospitals there aren't?

boomchek · April 2014

Maybe because in hospitals it's a given that they do wash hands, not just for the patient's safety but for their own as well.

crkyolfrt · April 2014

@Michaell@Edmunds said:
isell / mike -

Here's my take. On our old forum software there really wasn't a way to 'flag' posts. The new software we rolled out in December does. Kind of like a shiny new toy - something for people to play with.

While we're encouraging our members - both old and new - to try out the new software, don't read anything into the abuse flag. We all get frustrated from time to time, and now there is a way to note this frustration if it pertains to a specific post.

Just like you shouldn't get too excited when someone does a 'thumbs up' on a post.

Keep calm and post away.

I'd like to express an opinion on the 'abuse' button and how it functions. First of all if it is going to be the loan icon to express dislike, then it should not be labelled "Abuse". I felt this from the beginning of the new vanilla forum, and expressed my opinion then. But now we can see the damage it does. I got nailed with a few abuse hits a few months ago. They might have been deserved but personally I didn't see it. At the VERY least, they were NOT abusive comments. The guy maybe didn't 'like' what I said, but abuse it was not. A 'thumb down' icon would make a LOT more sense in my opinion, and it would also more accurately reflect a persons feeling about a post than 'abuse'. Abuse is a confrontational icon in its own right. This seems very counter-intuitive for the reason of its existence in the first place. It should be reserved for truely honest abuse, not the ONLY means for someone to say they don't agree.

Also, the effect that one abuse hit had on Mike, I can relate to, and I told Steve and Karen this a few months ago when I got hit with a few all at once. I told them that they are not going to have the affect they hoped it would. Instead it will promote a stifling of activity. Is that what they want? Instead, coincidently, Mike's reaction to want to just quit posting and leave, I can relate to because that is exactly what I felt like doing, and did. The difference was, I got about 5 or 6 hits all at once. He got but one. Since the Abuse button exists and is the ONLY negative type expression available it is prone to mis-use and should either be abandoned or supported with a properly named THUMB DOWN alternative. Not 'dislike' but THUMB DOWN. Thumb down is about as gentle way of showing a lack of support as you can get and should be the alternative choice.

And further, I don't know if it is possible, but a button icon as severe as Abuse, (if Edmunds continues to intend to use it) should be password protected. Again..IMO.

abacomike · April 2014

@crkyolfrt said:
I don't come on here and tell you how objectionable some of the egotistic idle yap is to me about fancy extravagant watches that cost more than my car, or your fancy cars that cost more than my home. It is because I try to allow others to live their lives their way, and I don't think I am too outta line in expecting others to allow me my opinion about some things."

So, the real "colors" come through - jealousy was the route of my "abuse" and Edmunds emails to me. So be it!

I have never sent Edmunds an abuse on anyone at anytime. I guess it's just something I have to get used to.

crkyolfrt · April 2014

@abacomike said:
So, the real "colors" come through - jealousy was the route of my "abuse" and Edmunds emails to me. So be it! I have never sent Edmunds an abuse on anyone at anytime. I guess it's just something I have to get used to.

So add another inaccurate assumption to your list. I wouldn't want to be you, Mike.

Anyway, can we please stop this? I know you are sick, as am I. This is not healthy for either one of us.

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