@brian125 said:That seems to be a problem. maybe down the road it can be worked out where the vehicle knows your at a stop sign and not a light.
Not a big problem for me. When I start the car up I immediately turn off the stop/start feature.
If I come up to a "fresh" long light or a railway track, I turn it on again. It is annoying when it goes off and on all the time, but is nice if you have a long wait anyway.
@imidazol97 said:They are one of the companies doing a Friday Data Dump while everyone is focused on GM's trials.
Nissan recalls 1 million for airbags
Recalls are a fact of life these days....cars are complex and mistakes can be made. It is how the recall is handled and whether lives were lost that makes the difference.
Nissan had to recall 1 million cars and fix a faulty part, and they did it as fast as possible, and admit there is a problem. GM did not investigate, did not admit there was a problem, and tried to sweep it under the rug......there is a difference.
Now, if you own a suspect Cobalt or other fine GM car you are supposed to park your car until a new part is put in. I know there isn't much choice, but the statement was probably made for legal reasons.
@roadburner said:When all is said and done, I suppose it is inevitable that we will see an increasing number of regulations designed to protect careless, lazy, and stupid individuals from the consequences of their actions.
But, also 1000s of people are injured every year by people backing up. Also, many killed or injured are little kids who have no idea they can't be seen. If it costs $3 million and it saves my life it was money well spent!
"We tamper with the Law of Natural Selection at our peril..."
Darwin will probably have the last word......I suspect that the more we try to forstall it, the more pressure will build before it all blows up. That said, I like backup cameras, just not being told I have no choice.
He'd probably enjoy feedback, or an invitation to this discussion.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
He'd probably enjoy feedback, or an invitation to this discussion.
Hey Kirstie, where have you been? I invited Wolfie to come over and play with us, but I'm not so sure he'll stick around too long.
I wrote:
@wolfofcars said:Sometimes I do feel a little remorse and maybe even very greedy at times but this does not make me a scum...or a hustler...and certainly not a thief or liar.
>
Wolfie, I doubt if I would buy a car from you....I have walked out on less egotistical sales people. I know the value of my trade in and I know what I will pay for the new car, and I won't pay one penny more...even if you are the #1 salesman in the USA and talk like Count Dracula.
Now go over to Sales Frontlines and tell the guys your story:
@driver100 - I've been here, but a variety of other projects have eaten at my time. I read, but I read and dash without posting.
One of the things we've been working on is integrating the vehicle-specific forums content with other Edmunds pages, to help drive more traffic here. For example: http://www.edmunds.com/honda/accord/2014/?sub=sedan
If you scroll down to near the bottom of the page, you'll see "Talk about the 2014 Accord" with forums discussions listed. Not awesome placement, but until now we had none, and we're working on more improvements. This is pretty easy with new discussions about new models, but it takes some fixing for pre-2014 discussions.
Another thing we're working on is trying to get as many questions answered as we can in the forums. As you can see with the new software, when you post a new thread, you can see how many views it gets. It's pretty discouraging when a new member joins, asks a question, gets a bunch of views, and 0 feedback. There's not always a way to answer them all, but I usually scroll down the list of recent discussions and see if I can find an answer, or ask a relevant follow-up question, or if I not, I may know someone who has an opinion/advice. So, if any of you are so inclined, feel free to do the same. Mechanical questions baffle me, but sometimes the shopping questions are low-hanging fruit - perfect for my level of expertise!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
"Mechanical questions baffle me, but sometimes the shopping questions are low-hanging fruit - perfect for my level of expertise!:
Kirstie, this forum is about "sales experiences" at dealerships and stories that dissect the car buying process. We have several posters here who were sales people and/or managers in the car business.
If someone asks a question about car buying/shopping, you usually get at least 10 responses from the pit crew here - some car buyers and some car sales pros.
The problem is that we get hardly anyone joining the forum asking questions about shopping or the buying process. So, we all hang out here discussing just about everything relating to vehicles, problems in the industry, new cars, repairing vehicles, safety features, etc., and many non-auto topics, as you know.
I would welcome new posters looking for info, asking questions, etc. I believe all of us would.
The reason we don't discuss "stories" very much is because we related most of them to each other over the years.
Any suggtions from you I am sure would be welcomed by all.
I found that so incredible that I went and looked at the owner's manual on the wife's car with that engine. Yep, says change plugs @ 30,000. That's nuts!
Richard, forget everything I said.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
@graphicguy said:
Driver...IIRC, the final "result" of the Audi 5000 UA issues were based on Audi making their pedals ideal for "heel and toe" operation (braking while keeping engine revs high)....something Europeans do regularly, and U.S. drivers hardly do at all.
Result? acceleration and braking pedals on the same plane and closer together, causing the "issues".
It almost ruined Audi. And, 60 Minutes, who first reported the issue, had to make a retraction, but the damage was already done.
Regarding GM, not sure it was a weight savings, but probably going to the supplier that had the least expensive part. As my late Father used to say "I'd rather be good, than to be right".
GM perhaps thought they were right in saving every last fraction of a penny to get that ignition as cheaply as possible. However, they weren't very good when they kept denying it was an issue for years (actually, more than a decade).
From everything I've read, the switch itself was very weak, and poorly made. In addition, the sensors for the keys might be faulty, too. While it makes sense that "bumping" the keys in the ignition might turn the car off. There were other reports stating that the cars would keep running after the ignition was turned off and the key removed.
For decades we've heard that GM was run by "bean counters". They can't move away from that sort of thinking quickly enough, in my estimation.
The new CEO has her hands full. I believe she's sincere. But, there is a trust issue at play here, too. Years upon years of customer complaints on this very issue, all ignored or worse, dismissed with fatal consequences. I wish her well.
I've been tempted a couple of times to put my toes back into the GM waters. On the surface, they have some seemingly good products (Richard's CRX, my experiences driving an ATS). Even my own positive experience with the last GM product I owned, a Tahoe, should enter into it.
Then, all of a sudden, I read this sort of thing. I remember how flimsy the ignition switch felt, how it flopped about when putting in the key or taking it out, etc. and wonder if this was what they're talking about.
So, I stay away from GM.
Your post jogged some old memory in my pea brain.
Our school has 2 Chrysler TC vans we use as buses. It has a keyless fib that inserts in a slot on the dash. I assume this is just for show and the ignition is wireless.
Once when driving the van I knocked against the fib with my knee. The van stopped. I fiddled with it a bit and it started back up. To my memory it was also a flimsy affair.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I would welcome new posters looking for info, asking questions, etc. I believe all of us would.
The reason we don't discuss "stories" very much is because we related most of them to each other over the years.
Oh, I hope no one took that as a reprimand. Everything's fine, and I promise that if there's a discussion that pops up that I feel could really use some advice from members in here, I'll post a link and ask for help!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I certainly did not consider your post as a reprimand, Kirstie. It was informational and explained what has been happening at Edmunds and plans for the future.
I was merely supporting the concept of listing appropriate forums for readers using Edmunds to be directed to.
No, I did not sense any admonishments from you at all! Sorry that my post was misunderstood - I should have been clearer - my fault
I miss the Questions links that used to appear beside the forum posts. Occasionally I would see one from a Buick/Pontiac owner where I had some insight to help them. Also, I was signed up for the whole cluster of LeSabre and Bonneville topics. If a post was placed or a new topic added in the group, I saw the post. Sometimes I was able to share my expertise and experience.
I'd like to see a way to sign up for topic clusters like I used to be able to do.
@driver100 said:
I have thought that would be a nice feature to have...a way to mark what the last message was > that you actually read.
There is a way. The old software used to do that, but the new one doesn't. Big big miss as far as I'm concerned, but Mr. and Mrs. Edmunds didn't ask for my opinion, so I'm withholding my dues.
@nyccarguy said:
One of my customers has a Forester with the Eye Sight. He said it is amazing.
Thanks for the personal story, NYC. The Subie system is VERY different than the other makes, employing cameras mounted beside the rear view mirror rather than the more common radar systems for collision avoidance. It seemed like an odd technology contrasted against the other systems out there, but it seems to be working very well and reflects Subaru's quirky personality. For 2015 Subaru is making improvements to make EyeSight even more capable of avoiding accidents at even higher speeds. I would think that keeping the windshield relatively clean is important for EyeSight to function accurately, but I don't know that for certain.
One of the things I liked about the Volvo system is that a camera will identify and store the last speed limit sign you passed, so if you're in a new area and wondering what the speed limit is, a quick glance next to the speedo lets you know the most recently posted speed. Pretty cool.
@driver100 said:
.he made the case things like rear cameras could raise the price of cars and so people will drive older unsafe cars because they can't afford a new car. I think that's a stretch...those cameras just cost $200. Lane change warnings and the Eyesight feature don't add huge costs....and the benefits far outweigh any additional cost.
Here is the thing about it, yes one safety device doesn't add a lot to the price of the car but multiple safety devices add up quickly. IIRC I read one article that cost out anti lock brakes, stability control, backup assist and tire pressure monitors at well over $2K. Add automatic braking, lane departure warnings and others and its a lot more.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
@brian125 said:
In 10 years the advanced tech that will be in, and offered in vehicles will be amazing.
However there is only so much energy in a gallon of gas. In order to get to that 54.5 MPG either you will have to have such a technologically advance car that the average driver can't afford it or have a small car with a anemic engine.
Or you can make a mile 3,000 feet long.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
@roadburner said:
After all, the collective ignorance of the US has increased to the point that warning labels are required to warn people that battery acid is not a beverage, coffee is hot, and razor blades are sharp.
Several years ago while on vacation we got a small bag of peanuts for the wife, on that bag was the warning "May contain peanuts".
Now I don't know which worries me the most, that someone might think that a bag of peanuts won't have peanuts or that the "May contain peanuts" implies that there is a chance you bought a bag of something else.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
@snakeweasel said:
Now I don't know which worries me the most, that someone might think that a bag of peanuts won't have peanuts or that the "May contain peanuts" implies that there is a chance you bought a bag of something else.
LOL.
I spent the last year working in various committees examining how customers, scientists for the most part, could possibly injure themselves while interacting with our company's products. Interesting experience. Despite having an educated customer base, per regulatory compliance I had to assume they were incompetent Neanderthals with no common sense. And yes, that effort resulted in many of those seemingly nonsensical warning labels. Things like not placing your hand under a sharp suction needle as it's lowering into a sample.
@tyguy said:
. And yes, that effort resulted in many of those seemingly nonsensical warning labels. Things like not placing your hand under a sharp suction needle as it's lowering into a sample.
Warning: Peanuts - May contain nuts.
Puma shoe box - Average Contents: 2
International Yacht Varnish - Not suitable for marine use.
Birthday Card for a 2 year old - Not suitable for children under 3.
Superman outfit - Does not enable wearer to fly
Child's Scooter - This product moves when used.
Sleeping Pills - Warning, may cause drowsiness.
He'd probably enjoy feedback, or an invitation to this discussion.
Kirstie....I think.....ummmm.....maybe.....how should I put this? Wolfie would be welcome over here. However, based on his little diatribe, I doubt he'd last long.
@snakeweasel said:
Or you can make a mile 3,000 feet long.
However there is only so much energy in a gallon of gas. In order to get to that 54.5 MPG.
Here are my thoughts on the 54 mpg mandate by 2025. I think it will get done.
You may be right to assume higher prices for new tech features and better gas numbers in cars by 2025. Once we learn about the pro's and cons of the intial faze.... prices should level off and drop. Just like a new tech TV. The Lcd TV"s were expensive at first , then 2 years later there not. Why? The new LED TV replaced it. Same will happen in the auto industry. AS our tech gets better it will drive the price down. Baby steps first.. It was just a hot minute ago we were walking on the moon.. Look where we are today.. 18 Trillion in debt... LOL Just joking here.. LOL.
Chevrolet's inexpensive mini Spark car is a unlikely hit as many American buyers warm to this car, even though automaker that has traditionally struggled to sell small vehicles;The four-door Spark, made in South Korea, starts at $12,170 and get about 35 miles per gallon.
The Spark, made in South Korea, seats four, has room for groceries — and starts at $12,170, significantly less than the Fiat 500’s starting price of $16,100. It’s also inexpensive to run, getting about 35 miles to the gallon. Give the great minds in america the time and resources and we will have better gas mileage in cars by 2025.
Environmental Protection Agency has tucked proposal for fuel that is 30 percent ethanol, rather than standard 10 percent, inside plan to reduce sulfur in gasoline; hope is that 30 percent ethanol fuel could reduce emissions and lead to development of engines built to run efficiently on it.
Automakers are developing high-strength lightweight steel, aluminum and carbon fiber to make cars lighter and meet federally mandated fleet average of 54.5 miles per gallon by 2025
Average mileage of new vehicles sold in United States reached a high of 30.1 miles per gallon in August, as calculated for federal corporate average fuel economy standard; automakers are under pressure to reach government targets for fuel economy of 35.5 mpg for 2016 and 54.5 mpg by 2025. I think it can and will be done. Gm and Ford are using grant money and are testing lighter metals to build there vehicles for up comming gas mandates.
.Transmissions will get lighter in weight. Transmissions will get more gears.Transmission will have more electronics. And like you pointed out....Transmission will be more expensive at first to produce.
Prices may be higher on some vehicles at first but will level off. lets see in 10 years how far we come from today.. We have made great strides already.
@snakeweasel said:
However there is only so much energy in a gallon of gas. In order to get to that 54.5 MPG either you will have to have such a technologically advance car that the average driver can't afford it or have a small car with a anemic engine.
Since we already have hybrids that get 54 MPG, the question isn't whether it's possible, it's whether we can make them cheaply.
When the cost is largely about technology, rather than the materials, the answer is almost always "yes." It's not exactly like electronics, where we routinely manufacture items for $100 that cost $500 three years ago, but it's close. Much of the expense you're seeing in technologically advanced cars is learning how to make them and tooling costs, not the actual cost of building the car once you've paid those up-front costs.
As for the "so much energy" argument, internal combustion engines lose 70% of the energy in a gallon of gas to waste heat. That's why cars needs radiators. 100+ MPG is theoretically possible. Many electric cars already routinely get MPGe of 110 or more, because they generate very little waste heat. The power plants that generate the electricity do have that issue still, though they're more efficient than car engines in that regard. There are also transmission losses, but they turn out to be a very small part of the equation.
"Kirstie....Ithink.....ummmm.....maybe....how should I put this? Wolfie would be welcome over here. However, based on his little diatribe, I doubt he'd last long."
I read Wolfie's dissertation on how much of a customer's money he wants to line his pockets with.
I believe that anyone who wants to join this forum would be welcome to do so - which I know you support as do others here SFTSF.
As to his not lasting very long here, I have a different opinion.
Being an 8 year veteran as a salesman and manager in dealerships, I've come across individuals like Wolfie who have no regrets about how much they want to make from a customer. They are like sharks surveying their next meal along the Florida reefs. They make no excuses - they just move in for the kill to satisfy their appetite for money.
So, I feel he would outlast most of us on this forum because people like him have tremendous stamina.
As to inviting Wolfie to join the forum, I would have to pass on that request but I would respect him and respond to his posts objectively and offer suggestions.
" I invited Wolfie to come over and play with us, but I'm not so sure he'll stick around too long."
Thanks for inviting Wolfie to come over here, driver. I am looking forward to hearing from him soon.
But after reading his dissertation, I could not, in all honesty, bring myself to invite him over here. If he wants to join the discussion, I'm open to reading his posts and I will then reassess my first impressions of him, if warranted.
Good for you, driver - you are a better man than I.
Mike....I have absolutely no issue with a salesperson trying to maximize their income. But, if like Wolfie says, he's there to "Spin my head around" or make me "laydown", that will never happen. Further, the attempt to do so, I will use our weapon of choice, our feet.
You want respect? You give respect in return. View me as a "mark"? You will never get my business.
While I don't know Wolfie, and won't claim to, I have run up against similar folks in my car buying. Know what? I just don't buy cars from those types.
Quick sales story...I was having dinner with a good college friend who I've known for a long time. He had just bought a new Avalon. He had a RAV4 previously that he had leased. He was way over on mileage and was hoping Toyota would forgive at least part of the overage. They did....but a small amount.
Anyway, as he was describing his sales experience, he went to the Toyota dealer nearest his home. He looked for the sales person he worked with 3 years prior. He found that the sales person had moved into finance, but was introduced to his replacement.
First turn off....the new salesperson introduces himself, and immediately tells my friend he could "trust him". To which my friend replied..."I didn't know I couldn't trust you. Is there an experience I should know about which puts my trust in doubt?". The sales guy said he just wanted to reassure my friend. OK...whatever.
Typical from that point....."what type of car do you want? What color? What options?"
After telling the sales person this, my friend was very up front with him and said he had a RAV4 as a lease turn in. But, he was over on mileage. He said the salesperson didn't seem to care about that.
Onwards....they didn't have the color or a car with the options my friend wanted, but put my friend in an Avalon that was sitting nearest their front door. Before my friend knew it, there was a dealer tag on the back and the sales person was starting the car to drive my friend around.
As my friend reiterated, the Avalon they were in, was not near to the one he wanted. Sales person states they can get any car he wants.
Comes time to get back to the dealership and talk about "the deal". Out comes the 4 square. My friend is a lot like me....He's done his research, he knows the price of the car he's willing to pay. He left about $500 of meat on the bone for the dealer. He upped his offer a little for the likelihood they'd have to truck the car in to get what he wanted.
The RAV4 is worth what it's worth in the lease contract. My friend owed about $1,200 in mileage overage. He wanted to split that with the dealer, but was prepared to pay $1,000 of that overage.
My friend presents his deal, bottom line number, including doc fee (state allows $250 max, my friend allowed $50), lic, etc.
Salesperson takes the deal to his boss, who comes back with a monthly payment. My friend, who has the residuals and "rent fee" has to reverse engineer the dealer's numbers to see what the bottom line deal is, which ends up being a $300 discount off the MSRP plus $500 to get the car he wants (which ends up being at a dealer less than 10 miles away), the full mileage charge and some kludgy etching fee.
My friend didn't waste any more time at this dealer. He showed his numbers to the dealer again and asked if they had a deal or not. Manager went back to his office and came back with yet another payment, $5 less than the first, but it was on the car they test drove, which my friend told the original sales person he didn't want.
My friend got up to leave. No one listened to what he wanted. They played with the numbers to disguise the price (even after my friend asked for bottom line numbers). The Manager acted surprised, as did the sales person, who followed my friend out to his car asking "what can we do to make this deal happen?" As my friend responded, "I already told you, but no seemed to care. I thought I could trust you?" And, he drove away.
@imidazol97 said:
I miss the Questions links that used to appear beside the forum posts. Occasionally I would see one from a Buick/Pontiac owner where I had some insight to help them. Also, I was signed up for the whole cluster of LeSabre and Bonneville topics. If a post was placed or a new topic added in the group, I saw the post. Sometimes I was able to share my expertise and experience.
I'd like to see a way to sign up for topic clusters like I used to be able to do.
Ooh, ooh, ooh! Can you post this in our "welcome" discussion? http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/15513/general/x/welcome-to-edmunds-forums#latest
I know the topic clusters thing is on the most recent list of improvements we want. The questions thing is something we've talked about. Hearing from members who are interested in such features tends to elevate them to a higher priority.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
@graphicguy said:
Kirstie....I think.....ummmm.....maybe.....how should I put this? Wolfie would be welcome over here. However, based on his little diatribe, I doubt he'd last long.
You never know. We've had a few salespeople who came here guns-a-blazin', and they chilled out later on. Then some didn't. Maybe he just needs a hug.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
"Mike....I have absolutely no issue with a salesperson trying to maximize their income. But, if like Wolfie says, he's there to "Spin my head around" or make me "laydown", that will never happen. Further, the attempt to do so, I will use our weapon of choice, our feet."
GG, I didn't mean to disagree with your post, but rather the fact that I think guys like that are so strong-willed and egotistical, based on his rather long post, that he will last as long as he wants or desires, no matter what we or he says in a post.
I don't know him either, but I've met many like him.
You know me and know I don't and won't let people like that intimidate me. I just walk out "with a wiggle of my tush" like a duck.
I agree with everything you said - but he might last longer than you think.
@abacomike said:I'm open to reading his posts and I will then reassess my first impressions of him, if warranted.Good for you, driver - you are a better man than I
Not really....I am just open to listening to anyone. For one thing, I am curious....I don't know if he is serious or not. I don't think he'll show up here anyway...he can try to intimidate people who aren't knowledgeable, but there are too may intelligent people here who can see right through him. Not to mention good decent salespeople who know he is a throwback to the 60s when sleezy sales skills may have worked.
Todays sales people are very different from the way they used to be. Everything used to be hardsell. Even in stores sales people would pounce on you when you came through the door. Car salesmen were pushy, and you couldn't trust them. The new salespeople are easy going, they listen to your needs, try to find a car that suits your needs, and they know they have matched you up with the car that will work for you. It doesn't take much to see thru wolfie...who is only out for himself.
"You never know. We've had a few salespeople who came here guns-a-blazin', and they chilled out later on. Then some didn't. Maybe he just needs a hug."
Kirstie, are you sure you meant to say "...Maybe he just needs a hug..."! If you did mean to say that, I'd rather leave the hugs part of your comment to his wife and children.
Car-to-car warning system set for America's roads (3:38)
April 4 - Vehicles that can communicate with each other and alert their drivers to traffic hazards may soon be seen on America's roads and highways. U.S. regulators are crafting a rule requiring all new vehicles to be able to ''talk'' to one another as they travel, using technology they say will significantly reduce road accidents. (Reuters). U.S. wants this in place by 2017.
@gus_smedstad said:
As for the "so much energy" argument, internal combustion engines lose 70% of the energy in a gallon of gas to waste heat. That's why cars needs radiators. 100+ MPG is theoretically possible. Many electric cars already routinely get MPGe of 110 or more, because they generate very little waste heat. The power plants that generate the electricity do have that issue still, though they're more efficient than car engines in that regard. There are also transmission losses, but they turn out to be a very small part of the equation.
The European market has many more small, fuel-efficient car models than we get in America, but even European versions of international cars like the Jetta are rated at higher MPG numbers. Why does a TDI Jetta in America struggle to make 45 mpg but a European TDI Jetta makes 65 easily?
I think the European cars don't go through the same tests as American cars do. The EPA's test attempts to mimic American driving conditions, while European cars go through a more European test. Most people do complain about the realism of either of the tests, but they're sure to account for further MPG differences between European and American market cars.
A major reason is that US emission standards are stricter than those in the EU. As a result the cars here require more emission equipment that hinders fuel economy to an extent. in particular, the US has strict soot emission standards, which more directly affects diesels, which as we all know are more popular in the EU. I know some who say this is bull.
Regardless 54, miles per gallon will be achieved in the U.S. in 2025... I think were on track..
@driver100 said:
April 4 - Vehicles that can communicate with each other and alert their drivers to traffic hazards may soon be seen on America's roads and highways. U.S. regulators are crafting a rule requiring all new vehicles to be able to ''talk'' to one another as they travel, using technology they say will significantly reduce road accidents. (Reuters). U.S. wants this in place by 2017.
I sure hope that requirement comes with an even stronger one for firewalls. I'm certain that crafty hackers will use interlinked vehicles to spread viruses with the potential to takeover drive-by-wire systems
Isn't 54.5 the gross number? Meaning the sticker number will be adjusted down. Isn't it about 30% now? So maybe 39 combined, which sounds much more doable.
Wolfie's method of pouncing on customers may work for some, may not for others.
For me, when I started in the biz 10 years ago I used to be nice and wanting respect from customers by going out of my way for them, letting them "sleep on it" and "think about it" only to get walked all over and price shopped over $50 or a set of floor mats. So this is why he, and most places act that way and try to close a customer on a first visit.
Most customers get so caught up in the process when buying a car that they call a million stores, test drive two dozen cars, and even if they do return to your dealer they probably won't remember they dealt with you in the first place, so your $150 flat commission will now be a split with another salesperson at $75 each (minus tax, and other deductions). So therefore most salespeople will push hard for that close on the first visit. Yes, they might lose some customers but they typically close a lot more than they lose.
I sell used cars now anyways and my methods are so different than when I started in the business that it saves me headaches and misunderstandings down the road. I am still nice and very laid back with customers but more firm and get the point right away:
-I don't go out of my way for customers unless I absolutely have to in order to get the deal done.
-I don't test drive people who are not ready to buy "now" or within the next few days. Used cars are unique so if the one you're test driving sells, there won't be a replacement on the lot you can buy. So we're wasting each other's time if you're not in the market any time soon and want to joyride our inventory. I will tell a customer to come back when they're ready to buy something.
-If you're under age and want to buy a car, you're not driving it either until your parents are here with you. We can't legally put a deal with you anyways.
-Our prices are firm (we price our cars cheaper by several thousand and move them quickly), and there's a doc fee and tax added on top. We disclose that up front on the lot. If the car is over your budget and your budget is firm, we're going to look at something else. And if you insist on a test drive I will ask you if you're ok with the price, and you are ready to buy if you like how it drives. If you're not ok, then we're not driving it.
-I will ask up front if a customer is paying cash or financing before they even sit in a car. If they're not sure then I ask them to figure that out pretty quickly before we look at cars, as some older cars you can't finance. No point looking at and driving cars you can't buy.
-And unlike many other dealers that beat around the bush, if the customer has a trade for which they want to get an unrealistic price for, we cut the conversation short and tell them up front what it's worth. No point going through a 1-2 hour sales process only to find out you're upside down on your trade more than is financeable or that you want some crazy amount for it. Most of us here have been in management roles before and are in tune with the market to be able to say those things to customers and save ourselves headaches, and time.
-If you have bad credit we'll do a pre approval. If you're financeable we'll look at cars. If not, then on to the next customer.
-If you email me and ask me to send you more pictures on a car for which there are 25 photos online already (covering every nook and cranny of the car), I will not take you seriously and consider you a picture collector and not a buyer, and very unlikely that I will send you more photos especially if you live in town and have no mobility issues. You're most likely just a nut job. 99.9% of people that ever emailed me asking for "more photos" never bought anything from me.
So I may be a bit abrupt but I am easy going to save you and me time. It seems to work for me and I do very good numbers as a result. Most customers seem to like the up front not-beating-around-the-bush attitude too.
@robr2 said:
Probably because Imperial gallons (4.546 L) are bigger than US gallons (3.79 L) and their testing is different than ours.
Robr2 you are correct.... Here is the breakdown
Part of that is that Imperial gallons are different than US gallons. 1 US gallon = .83 Imperial gallons. 45 US MPG = 54 Imp MPG. Or, 65 Imp MPG = 54 US MPG.
stickyguy- Very good point never thought of that. I would think combined city and hwy with a 54 mpg vehicle would have be close to your 39 + mpg assessment .
Seems to reason that Subaru would be embarrassed to be represented by a person like Wolfie. I sent his little diatribe to their corporate office as a friendly heads-up, but there's probably little they can do about it. Subaru used to have a factory rep on these boards collecting feedback from owners, which I really appreciated and admired as a Subaru owner.
I don't think Subaru really cares about Wolfie's post. It's guys like this that move units for the company. In the end it's the sales numbers that count, not how nice a salesperson was to a non buying customer on a test drive.
@abacomike said:
Kirstie, are you sure you meant to say "...Maybe he just needs a hug..."! If you did mean to say that, I'd rather leave the hugs part of your comment to his wife and children.
I meant it in a virtual, group-hug kind of way. It can be a lonely world when you're out there all by yourself, sporting nothing but a bad attitude.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I would love to see wolfie deal with the tech engineers that populate our area. These guys would come in groups and were only after one thing a low PRICE! They didn't care about building value or establishing any kind of a relationship. When their cars were out of warranty our Service Dept usually didn't see them again.
I'll admit, after spending a lifetime in retail management I had NO IDEA how brutal the car business can be nor how cutthroat.
I worked in a family owned store that had excellent management. I lasted 13.5 years and made excellent money. I was planning on working a few more years but I was becoming more and more unhappy.
I think wolfie may be a "one post wonder" but...I could be wrong!
I love the price shoppers especially when the first contact they make with me, before even seeing the car is what my best price is. I always tell them it's the one in the ad. Why in the world would I negotiate with my own price in the first place, for someone who has not even seen the car and might not even be a buyer. When people ask for "best price" before even seeing the vehicle, all they're doing is knocking down the asking price. It's a starting point for them when you thought it's the last price from you.
Boomcheck said..Wolfie's method of pouncing on customers may work for some, may not for others.
For me, when I started in the biz 10 years ago I used to be nice and wanting respect from customers by going out of my way for them, letting them "sleep on it" and "think about it" only to get walked all over and price shopped over $50 or a set of floor mats. So this is why he, and most places act that way and try to close a customer on a first visit
Your approach is good on how to sell a vehicle today. You are a good salesman . I'm the guy who looks for that internet manager, or sales mgr. with that Mentality . I wish the rest of the dealerships and sales guys would adapt this approach. What are they teaching these young people today?
I fight with Poster.... Isellhondas..... all the time thru these forums. Our posts toward each other are classic to say the least.. A good perpectus from both sides of the table But I'm right and he hates it.......LOL . He is a Good decent guy/ old school sales guy.. but he does not respect guys like me.. Dealers are not the only ones who know how to play this game.. A game that they set up.. We are only playing by your rules.. Guys like me Who know the art of the sale and how and when to make your best possible deal. The internet has change the game in the car buying world.. Isell thinks everybody wants to take his idea of a good price and we cant play the same tricks dealers pull on us.. Thats nonesense. You take your worst dealerships and pit one against the next and turn the table on them.. Treat folks right and you will be treated the same. Give your customers your best price and stop with all the lies and games. In the 5 mins I'm going to give you to earn my business all i want to hear is :........... Yes or NO on price. I'm not on the phone for a test drive I'm buying that minute.. Do you want the sale.
Mr brian we cant meet your offer of xxx price but if you want to buy from my dealership we will sell your model for this price.. thankyou for considering our dealership.. I dont need endless emails and talks back and forth for days with let me speak to my mgr.. Why waste all that time and effort if i'm a sales guy.. Time is money and your honesty even if its not the best price will earn you respect and alot of sucess in this business. If a customer wants to shop your price who cares... good bye you gave him your best and you move on. Dont take it personnal.
In well over 43 years I have bought over 1000 new vehicles for myself, family, friends and friends of friends. Mostly online with a faxed buyers order or some kind of conformation of the vehicle purchase and details.. Sorry to say but there are so many morons in your business its not funny. Clueless how to make a sale today from the educated buyer. . You could say the same for the customer side to. I cant believe how many dealership lie, twist the truth or decieve folks into sales numbers and vehicle info.. Its big business for the dealerships with the uneducated buyer.
@boomcheck, too bad you are so far away. I consider getting a 2nd job occasionally (gotta pay daughters college bills somehow!) but little seems to make sense. Working a few nights/week at a place like where you are could be fun! beats the heck out of Target.
@brian125 said:
In well over 43 years I have bought over 1000 new vehicles for myself, family, friends and friends of friends.
Well, let's see -- 1000 cars in 43 years works out to a little over 23 per year. You are a busy boy. Every two weeks you're buying a car. I stand in awe.
Perhaps one day I can touch the hem of your garment.
@boomchek said:
I don't think Subaru really cares about Wolfie's post. It's guys like this that move units for the company. In the end it's the sales numbers that count, not how nice a salesperson was to a non buying customer on a test drive.
So here's the obvious question, why are the dealers so preoccupied with their customer rating scores regarding the sales experience?
Comments
Not a big problem for me. When I start the car up I immediately turn off the stop/start feature.
If I come up to a "fresh" long light or a railway track, I turn it on again. It is annoying when it goes off and on all the time, but is nice if you have a long wait anyway.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Nissan recalls 1 million for airbags
Recalls are a fact of life these days....cars are complex and mistakes can be made. It is how the recall is handled and whether lives were lost that makes the difference.
Nissan had to recall 1 million cars and fix a faulty part, and they did it as fast as possible, and admit there is a problem. GM did not investigate, did not admit there was a problem, and tried to sweep it under the rug......there is a difference.
Now, if you own a suspect Cobalt or other fine GM car you are supposed to park your car until a new part is put in. I know there isn't much choice, but the statement was probably made for legal reasons.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
But, also 1000s of people are injured every year by people backing up. Also, many killed or injured are little kids who have no idea they can't be seen. If it costs $3 million and it saves my life it was money well spent!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
GM is now pulling their former subsidiary, Delphi, into this debacle. Delphi says GM designed the switch, they just built it to GM's specs.
This is the shuffling of blame GM has practiced in the past that isn't helping their case in the least.
"We tamper with the Law of Natural Selection at our peril..."
Darwin will probably have the last word......I suspect that the more we try to forstall it, the more pressure will build before it all blows up. That said, I like backup cameras, just not being told I have no choice.
I figured a few of you might be interested in our newest forums member who's a salesperson: http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/17658/general/x/why-do-you-fear-me-so-much#latest
He'd probably enjoy feedback, or an invitation to this discussion.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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Hey Kirstie, where have you been? I invited Wolfie to come over and play with us, but I'm not so sure he'll stick around too long.
I wrote:
>
Wolfie, I doubt if I would buy a car from you....I have walked out on less egotistical sales people. I know the value of my trade in and I know what I will pay for the new car, and I won't pay one penny more...even if you are the #1 salesman in the USA and talk like Count Dracula.
Now go over to Sales Frontlines and tell the guys your story:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Yea, verily.
It's been tampered with for years, if not decades, and here we are.
The morons are not killed off; more often than not, they're in charge.
@driver100 - I've been here, but a variety of other projects have eaten at my time. I read, but I read and dash without posting.
One of the things we've been working on is integrating the vehicle-specific forums content with other Edmunds pages, to help drive more traffic here. For example:
http://www.edmunds.com/honda/accord/2014/?sub=sedan
If you scroll down to near the bottom of the page, you'll see "Talk about the 2014 Accord" with forums discussions listed. Not awesome placement, but until now we had none, and we're working on more improvements. This is pretty easy with new discussions about new models, but it takes some fixing for pre-2014 discussions.
Another thing we're working on is trying to get as many questions answered as we can in the forums. As you can see with the new software, when you post a new thread, you can see how many views it gets. It's pretty discouraging when a new member joins, asks a question, gets a bunch of views, and 0 feedback. There's not always a way to answer them all, but I usually scroll down the list of recent discussions and see if I can find an answer, or ask a relevant follow-up question, or if I not, I may know someone who has an opinion/advice. So, if any of you are so inclined, feel free to do the same. Mechanical questions baffle me, but sometimes the shopping questions are low-hanging fruit - perfect for my level of expertise!
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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"Mechanical questions baffle me, but sometimes the shopping questions are low-hanging fruit - perfect for my level of expertise!:
Kirstie, this forum is about "sales experiences" at dealerships and stories that dissect the car buying process. We have several posters here who were sales people and/or managers in the car business.
If someone asks a question about car buying/shopping, you usually get at least 10 responses from the pit crew here - some car buyers and some car sales pros.
The problem is that we get hardly anyone joining the forum asking questions about shopping or the buying process. So, we all hang out here discussing just about everything relating to vehicles, problems in the industry, new cars, repairing vehicles, safety features, etc., and many non-auto topics, as you know.
I would welcome new posters looking for info, asking questions, etc. I believe all of us would.
The reason we don't discuss "stories" very much is because we related most of them to each other over the years.
Any suggtions from you I am sure would be welcomed by all.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
"2.4L replace plugs @ 30,000"
I found that so incredible that I went and looked at the owner's manual on the wife's car with that engine. Yep, says change plugs @ 30,000. That's nuts!
Richard, forget everything I said.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Your post jogged some old memory in my pea brain.
Our school has 2 Chrysler TC vans we use as buses. It has a keyless fib that inserts in a slot on the dash. I assume this is just for show and the ignition is wireless.
Once when driving the van I knocked against the fib with my knee. The van stopped. I fiddled with it a bit and it started back up. To my memory it was also a flimsy affair.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Oh, I hope no one took that as a reprimand. Everything's fine, and I promise that if there's a discussion that pops up that I feel could really use some advice from members in here, I'll post a link and ask for help!
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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"Oh, I hope no one took that as a reprimand. "
I certainly did not consider your post as a reprimand, Kirstie. It was informational and explained what has been happening at Edmunds and plans for the future.
I was merely supporting the concept of listing appropriate forums for readers using Edmunds to be directed to.
No, I did not sense any admonishments from you at all! Sorry that my post was misunderstood - I should have been clearer - my fault
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
I miss the Questions links that used to appear beside the forum posts. Occasionally I would see one from a Buick/Pontiac owner where I had some insight to help them. Also, I was signed up for the whole cluster of LeSabre and Bonneville topics. If a post was placed or a new topic added in the group, I saw the post. Sometimes I was able to share my expertise and experience.
I'd like to see a way to sign up for topic clusters like I used to be able to do.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There is a way. The old software used to do that, but the new one doesn't. Big big miss as far as I'm concerned, but Mr. and Mrs. Edmunds didn't ask for my opinion, so I'm withholding my dues.
Thanks for the personal story, NYC. The Subie system is VERY different than the other makes, employing cameras mounted beside the rear view mirror rather than the more common radar systems for collision avoidance. It seemed like an odd technology contrasted against the other systems out there, but it seems to be working very well and reflects Subaru's quirky personality. For 2015 Subaru is making improvements to make EyeSight even more capable of avoiding accidents at even higher speeds. I would think that keeping the windshield relatively clean is important for EyeSight to function accurately, but I don't know that for certain.
One of the things I liked about the Volvo system is that a camera will identify and store the last speed limit sign you passed, so if you're in a new area and wondering what the speed limit is, a quick glance next to the speedo lets you know the most recently posted speed. Pretty cool.
Here is the thing about it, yes one safety device doesn't add a lot to the price of the car but multiple safety devices add up quickly. IIRC I read one article that cost out anti lock brakes, stability control, backup assist and tire pressure monitors at well over $2K. Add automatic braking, lane departure warnings and others and its a lot more.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
However there is only so much energy in a gallon of gas. In order to get to that 54.5 MPG either you will have to have such a technologically advance car that the average driver can't afford it or have a small car with a anemic engine.
Or you can make a mile 3,000 feet long.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Several years ago while on vacation we got a small bag of peanuts for the wife, on that bag was the warning "May contain peanuts".
Now I don't know which worries me the most, that someone might think that a bag of peanuts won't have peanuts or that the "May contain peanuts" implies that there is a chance you bought a bag of something else.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
LOL.
I spent the last year working in various committees examining how customers, scientists for the most part, could possibly injure themselves while interacting with our company's products. Interesting experience. Despite having an educated customer base, per regulatory compliance I had to assume they were incompetent Neanderthals with no common sense. And yes, that effort resulted in many of those seemingly nonsensical warning labels. Things like not placing your hand under a sharp suction needle as it's lowering into a sample.
Warning: Peanuts - May contain nuts. Puma shoe box - Average Contents: 2 International Yacht Varnish - Not suitable for marine use. Birthday Card for a 2 year old - Not suitable for children under 3. Superman outfit - Does not enable wearer to fly Child's Scooter - This product moves when used. Sleeping Pills - Warning, may cause drowsiness.2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Kirstie....I think.....ummmm.....maybe.....how should I put this? Wolfie would be welcome over here. However, based on his little diatribe, I doubt he'd last long.
However there is only so much energy in a gallon of gas. In order to get to that 54.5 MPG.
Here are my thoughts on the 54 mpg mandate by 2025. I think it will get done.
You may be right to assume higher prices for new tech features and better gas numbers in cars by 2025. Once we learn about the pro's and cons of the intial faze.... prices should level off and drop. Just like a new tech TV. The Lcd TV"s were expensive at first , then 2 years later there not. Why? The new LED TV replaced it. Same will happen in the auto industry. AS our tech gets better it will drive the price down. Baby steps first.. It was just a hot minute ago we were walking on the moon.. Look where we are today.. 18 Trillion in debt... LOL Just joking here.. LOL.
Chevrolet's inexpensive mini Spark car is a unlikely hit as many American buyers warm to this car, even though automaker that has traditionally struggled to sell small vehicles;The four-door Spark, made in South Korea, starts at $12,170 and get about 35 miles per gallon.
The Spark, made in South Korea, seats four, has room for groceries — and starts at $12,170, significantly less than the Fiat 500’s starting price of $16,100. It’s also inexpensive to run, getting about 35 miles to the gallon. Give the great minds in america the time and resources and we will have better gas mileage in cars by 2025.
Environmental Protection Agency has tucked proposal for fuel that is 30 percent ethanol, rather than standard 10 percent, inside plan to reduce sulfur in gasoline; hope is that 30 percent ethanol fuel could reduce emissions and lead to development of engines built to run efficiently on it.
Automakers are developing high-strength lightweight steel, aluminum and carbon fiber to make cars lighter and meet federally mandated fleet average of 54.5 miles per gallon by 2025
Average mileage of new vehicles sold in United States reached a high of 30.1 miles per gallon in August, as calculated for federal corporate average fuel economy standard; automakers are under pressure to reach government targets for fuel economy of 35.5 mpg for 2016 and 54.5 mpg by 2025. I think it can and will be done. Gm and Ford are using grant money and are testing lighter metals to build there vehicles for up comming gas mandates.
.Transmissions will get lighter in weight. Transmissions will get more gears.Transmission will have more electronics. And like you pointed out....Transmission will be more expensive at first to produce.
Prices may be higher on some vehicles at first but will level off. lets see in 10 years how far we come from today.. We have made great strides already.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
Since we already have hybrids that get 54 MPG, the question isn't whether it's possible, it's whether we can make them cheaply.
When the cost is largely about technology, rather than the materials, the answer is almost always "yes." It's not exactly like electronics, where we routinely manufacture items for $100 that cost $500 three years ago, but it's close. Much of the expense you're seeing in technologically advanced cars is learning how to make them and tooling costs, not the actual cost of building the car once you've paid those up-front costs.
As for the "so much energy" argument, internal combustion engines lose 70% of the energy in a gallon of gas to waste heat. That's why cars needs radiators. 100+ MPG is theoretically possible. Many electric cars already routinely get MPGe of 110 or more, because they generate very little waste heat. The power plants that generate the electricity do have that issue still, though they're more efficient than car engines in that regard. There are also transmission losses, but they turn out to be a very small part of the equation.
"Kirstie....Ithink.....ummmm.....maybe....how should I put this? Wolfie would be welcome over here. However, based on his little diatribe, I doubt he'd last long."
I read Wolfie's dissertation on how much of a customer's money he wants to line his pockets with.
I believe that anyone who wants to join this forum would be welcome to do so - which I know you support as do others here SFTSF.
As to his not lasting very long here, I have a different opinion.
Being an 8 year veteran as a salesman and manager in dealerships, I've come across individuals like Wolfie who have no regrets about how much they want to make from a customer. They are like sharks surveying their next meal along the Florida reefs. They make no excuses - they just move in for the kill to satisfy their appetite for money.
So, I feel he would outlast most of us on this forum because people like him have tremendous stamina.
As to inviting Wolfie to join the forum, I would have to pass on that request but I would respect him and respond to his posts objectively and offer suggestions.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
" I invited Wolfie to come over and play with us, but I'm not so sure he'll stick around too long."
Thanks for inviting Wolfie to come over here, driver. I am looking forward to hearing from him soon.
But after reading his dissertation, I could not, in all honesty, bring myself to invite him over here. If he wants to join the discussion, I'm open to reading his posts and I will then reassess my first impressions of him, if warranted.
Good for you, driver - you are a better man than I.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Mike....I have absolutely no issue with a salesperson trying to maximize their income. But, if like Wolfie says, he's there to "Spin my head around" or make me "laydown", that will never happen. Further, the attempt to do so, I will use our weapon of choice, our feet.
You want respect? You give respect in return. View me as a "mark"? You will never get my business.
While I don't know Wolfie, and won't claim to, I have run up against similar folks in my car buying. Know what? I just don't buy cars from those types.
Quick sales story...I was having dinner with a good college friend who I've known for a long time. He had just bought a new Avalon. He had a RAV4 previously that he had leased. He was way over on mileage and was hoping Toyota would forgive at least part of the overage. They did....but a small amount.
Anyway, as he was describing his sales experience, he went to the Toyota dealer nearest his home. He looked for the sales person he worked with 3 years prior. He found that the sales person had moved into finance, but was introduced to his replacement.
First turn off....the new salesperson introduces himself, and immediately tells my friend he could "trust him". To which my friend replied..."I didn't know I couldn't trust you. Is there an experience I should know about which puts my trust in doubt?". The sales guy said he just wanted to reassure my friend. OK...whatever.
Typical from that point....."what type of car do you want? What color? What options?"
After telling the sales person this, my friend was very up front with him and said he had a RAV4 as a lease turn in. But, he was over on mileage. He said the salesperson didn't seem to care about that.
Onwards....they didn't have the color or a car with the options my friend wanted, but put my friend in an Avalon that was sitting nearest their front door. Before my friend knew it, there was a dealer tag on the back and the sales person was starting the car to drive my friend around.
As my friend reiterated, the Avalon they were in, was not near to the one he wanted. Sales person states they can get any car he wants.
Comes time to get back to the dealership and talk about "the deal". Out comes the 4 square. My friend is a lot like me....He's done his research, he knows the price of the car he's willing to pay. He left about $500 of meat on the bone for the dealer. He upped his offer a little for the likelihood they'd have to truck the car in to get what he wanted.
The RAV4 is worth what it's worth in the lease contract. My friend owed about $1,200 in mileage overage. He wanted to split that with the dealer, but was prepared to pay $1,000 of that overage.
My friend presents his deal, bottom line number, including doc fee (state allows $250 max, my friend allowed $50), lic, etc.
Salesperson takes the deal to his boss, who comes back with a monthly payment. My friend, who has the residuals and "rent fee" has to reverse engineer the dealer's numbers to see what the bottom line deal is, which ends up being a $300 discount off the MSRP plus $500 to get the car he wants (which ends up being at a dealer less than 10 miles away), the full mileage charge and some kludgy etching fee.
My friend didn't waste any more time at this dealer. He showed his numbers to the dealer again and asked if they had a deal or not. Manager went back to his office and came back with yet another payment, $5 less than the first, but it was on the car they test drove, which my friend told the original sales person he didn't want.
My friend got up to leave. No one listened to what he wanted. They played with the numbers to disguise the price (even after my friend asked for bottom line numbers). The Manager acted surprised, as did the sales person, who followed my friend out to his car asking "what can we do to make this deal happen?" As my friend responded, "I already told you, but no seemed to care. I thought I could trust you?" And, he drove away.
Ooh, ooh, ooh! Can you post this in our "welcome" discussion? http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/15513/general/x/welcome-to-edmunds-forums#latest
I know the topic clusters thing is on the most recent list of improvements we want. The questions thing is something we've talked about. Hearing from members who are interested in such features tends to elevate them to a higher priority.
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You never know. We've had a few salespeople who came here guns-a-blazin', and they chilled out later on. Then some didn't. Maybe he just needs a hug.
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"Mike....I have absolutely no issue with a salesperson trying to maximize their income. But, if like Wolfie says, he's there to "Spin my head around" or make me "laydown", that will never happen. Further, the attempt to do so, I will use our weapon of choice, our feet."
GG, I didn't mean to disagree with your post, but rather the fact that I think guys like that are so strong-willed and egotistical, based on his rather long post, that he will last as long as he wants or desires, no matter what we or he says in a post.
I don't know him either, but I've met many like him.
You know me and know I don't and won't let people like that intimidate me. I just walk out "with a wiggle of my tush" like a duck.
I agree with everything you said - but he might last longer than you think.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Not really....I am just open to listening to anyone. For one thing, I am curious....I don't know if he is serious or not. I don't think he'll show up here anyway...he can try to intimidate people who aren't knowledgeable, but there are too may intelligent people here who can see right through him. Not to mention good decent salespeople who know he is a throwback to the 60s when sleezy sales skills may have worked.
Todays sales people are very different from the way they used to be. Everything used to be hardsell. Even in stores sales people would pounce on you when you came through the door. Car salesmen were pushy, and you couldn't trust them. The new salespeople are easy going, they listen to your needs, try to find a car that suits your needs, and they know they have matched you up with the car that will work for you. It doesn't take much to see thru wolfie...who is only out for himself.
So far, we haven't seen wolfie join us.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
"You never know. We've had a few salespeople who came here guns-a-blazin', and they chilled out later on. Then some didn't. Maybe he just needs a hug."
Kirstie, are you sure you meant to say "...Maybe he just needs a hug..."! If you did mean to say that, I'd rather leave the hugs part of your comment to his wife and children.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Car-to-car warning system set for America's roads (3:38)
April 4 - Vehicles that can communicate with each other and alert their drivers to traffic hazards may soon be seen on America's roads and highways. U.S. regulators are crafting a rule requiring all new vehicles to be able to ''talk'' to one another as they travel, using technology they say will significantly reduce road accidents. (Reuters). U.S. wants this in place by 2017.
Car-to-car warning system set for America's roads
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The European market has many more small, fuel-efficient car models than we get in America, but even European versions of international cars like the Jetta are rated at higher MPG numbers. Why does a TDI Jetta in America struggle to make 45 mpg but a European TDI Jetta makes 65 easily?
I think the European cars don't go through the same tests as American cars do. The EPA's test attempts to mimic American driving conditions, while European cars go through a more European test. Most people do complain about the realism of either of the tests, but they're sure to account for further MPG differences between European and American market cars.
A major reason is that US emission standards are stricter than those in the EU. As a result the cars here require more emission equipment that hinders fuel economy to an extent. in particular, the US has strict soot emission standards, which more directly affects diesels, which as we all know are more popular in the EU. I know some who say this is bull.
Regardless 54, miles per gallon will be achieved in the U.S. in 2025... I think were on track..
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
I sure hope that requirement comes with an even stronger one for firewalls. I'm certain that crafty hackers will use interlinked vehicles to spread viruses with the potential to takeover drive-by-wire systems
Probably because Imperial gallons (4.546 L) are bigger than US gallons (3.79 L) and their testing is different than ours.
Isn't 54.5 the gross number? Meaning the sticker number will be adjusted down. Isn't it about 30% now? So maybe 39 combined, which sounds much more doable.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Wolfie's method of pouncing on customers may work for some, may not for others.
For me, when I started in the biz 10 years ago I used to be nice and wanting respect from customers by going out of my way for them, letting them "sleep on it" and "think about it" only to get walked all over and price shopped over $50 or a set of floor mats. So this is why he, and most places act that way and try to close a customer on a first visit.
Most customers get so caught up in the process when buying a car that they call a million stores, test drive two dozen cars, and even if they do return to your dealer they probably won't remember they dealt with you in the first place, so your $150 flat commission will now be a split with another salesperson at $75 each (minus tax, and other deductions). So therefore most salespeople will push hard for that close on the first visit. Yes, they might lose some customers but they typically close a lot more than they lose.
I sell used cars now anyways and my methods are so different than when I started in the business that it saves me headaches and misunderstandings down the road. I am still nice and very laid back with customers but more firm and get the point right away:
-I don't go out of my way for customers unless I absolutely have to in order to get the deal done.
-I don't test drive people who are not ready to buy "now" or within the next few days. Used cars are unique so if the one you're test driving sells, there won't be a replacement on the lot you can buy. So we're wasting each other's time if you're not in the market any time soon and want to joyride our inventory. I will tell a customer to come back when they're ready to buy something.
-If you're under age and want to buy a car, you're not driving it either until your parents are here with you. We can't legally put a deal with you anyways.
-Our prices are firm (we price our cars cheaper by several thousand and move them quickly), and there's a doc fee and tax added on top. We disclose that up front on the lot. If the car is over your budget and your budget is firm, we're going to look at something else. And if you insist on a test drive I will ask you if you're ok with the price, and you are ready to buy if you like how it drives. If you're not ok, then we're not driving it.
-I will ask up front if a customer is paying cash or financing before they even sit in a car. If they're not sure then I ask them to figure that out pretty quickly before we look at cars, as some older cars you can't finance. No point looking at and driving cars you can't buy.
-And unlike many other dealers that beat around the bush, if the customer has a trade for which they want to get an unrealistic price for, we cut the conversation short and tell them up front what it's worth. No point going through a 1-2 hour sales process only to find out you're upside down on your trade more than is financeable or that you want some crazy amount for it. Most of us here have been in management roles before and are in tune with the market to be able to say those things to customers and save ourselves headaches, and time.
-If you have bad credit we'll do a pre approval. If you're financeable we'll look at cars. If not, then on to the next customer.
-If you email me and ask me to send you more pictures on a car for which there are 25 photos online already (covering every nook and cranny of the car), I will not take you seriously and consider you a picture collector and not a buyer, and very unlikely that I will send you more photos especially if you live in town and have no mobility issues. You're most likely just a nut job. 99.9% of people that ever emailed me asking for "more photos" never bought anything from me.
So I may be a bit abrupt but I am easy going to save you and me time. It seems to work for me and I do very good numbers as a result. Most customers seem to like the up front not-beating-around-the-bush attitude too.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Robr2 you are correct.... Here is the breakdown
Part of that is that Imperial gallons are different than US gallons. 1 US gallon = .83 Imperial gallons. 45 US MPG = 54 Imp MPG. Or, 65 Imp MPG = 54 US MPG.
stickyguy- Very good point never thought of that. I would think combined city and hwy with a 54 mpg vehicle would have be close to your 39 + mpg assessment .
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
Seems to reason that Subaru would be embarrassed to be represented by a person like Wolfie. I sent his little diatribe to their corporate office as a friendly heads-up, but there's probably little they can do about it. Subaru used to have a factory rep on these boards collecting feedback from owners, which I really appreciated and admired as a Subaru owner.
I don't think Subaru really cares about Wolfie's post. It's guys like this that move units for the company. In the end it's the sales numbers that count, not how nice a salesperson was to a non buying customer on a test drive.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I meant it in a virtual, group-hug kind of way. It can be a lonely world when you're out there all by yourself, sporting nothing but a bad attitude.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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Boom, you and I operate in much the same way.
I would love to see wolfie deal with the tech engineers that populate our area. These guys would come in groups and were only after one thing a low PRICE! They didn't care about building value or establishing any kind of a relationship. When their cars were out of warranty our Service Dept usually didn't see them again.
I'll admit, after spending a lifetime in retail management I had NO IDEA how brutal the car business can be nor how cutthroat.
I worked in a family owned store that had excellent management. I lasted 13.5 years and made excellent money. I was planning on working a few more years but I was becoming more and more unhappy.
I think wolfie may be a "one post wonder" but...I could be wrong!
I love the price shoppers especially when the first contact they make with me, before even seeing the car is what my best price is. I always tell them it's the one in the ad. Why in the world would I negotiate with my own price in the first place, for someone who has not even seen the car and might not even be a buyer. When people ask for "best price" before even seeing the vehicle, all they're doing is knocking down the asking price. It's a starting point for them when you thought it's the last price from you.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Boomcheck said..Wolfie's method of pouncing on customers may work for some, may not for others.
For me, when I started in the biz 10 years ago I used to be nice and wanting respect from customers by going out of my way for them, letting them "sleep on it" and "think about it" only to get walked all over and price shopped over $50 or a set of floor mats. So this is why he, and most places act that way and try to close a customer on a first visit
Your approach is good on how to sell a vehicle today. You are a good salesman . I'm the guy who looks for that internet manager, or sales mgr. with that Mentality . I wish the rest of the dealerships and sales guys would adapt this approach. What are they teaching these young people today?
I fight with Poster.... Isellhondas..... all the time thru these forums. Our posts toward each other are classic to say the least.. A good perpectus from both sides of the table But I'm right and he hates it.......LOL . He is a Good decent guy/ old school sales guy.. but he does not respect guys like me.. Dealers are not the only ones who know how to play this game.. A game that they set up.. We are only playing by your rules.. Guys like me Who know the art of the sale and how and when to make your best possible deal. The internet has change the game in the car buying world.. Isell thinks everybody wants to take his idea of a good price and we cant play the same tricks dealers pull on us.. Thats nonesense. You take your worst dealerships and pit one against the next and turn the table on them.. Treat folks right and you will be treated the same. Give your customers your best price and stop with all the lies and games. In the 5 mins I'm going to give you to earn my business all i want to hear is :........... Yes or NO on price. I'm not on the phone for a test drive I'm buying that minute.. Do you want the sale.
Mr brian we cant meet your offer of xxx price but if you want to buy from my dealership we will sell your model for this price.. thankyou for considering our dealership.. I dont need endless emails and talks back and forth for days with let me speak to my mgr.. Why waste all that time and effort if i'm a sales guy.. Time is money and your honesty even if its not the best price will earn you respect and alot of sucess in this business. If a customer wants to shop your price who cares... good bye you gave him your best and you move on. Dont take it personnal.
In well over 43 years I have bought over 1000 new vehicles for myself, family, friends and friends of friends. Mostly online with a faxed buyers order or some kind of conformation of the vehicle purchase and details.. Sorry to say but there are so many morons in your business its not funny. Clueless how to make a sale today from the educated buyer. . You could say the same for the customer side to. I cant believe how many dealership lie, twist the truth or decieve folks into sales numbers and vehicle info.. Its big business for the dealerships with the uneducated buyer.
I like your sales approach .. Boomchek
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
25 cars/year bought? Do you have time for a job?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
@boomcheck, too bad you are so far away. I consider getting a 2nd job occasionally (gotta pay daughters college bills somehow!) but little seems to make sense. Working a few nights/week at a place like where you are could be fun! beats the heck out of Target.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Well, let's see -- 1000 cars in 43 years works out to a little over 23 per year. You are a busy boy. Every two weeks you're buying a car. I stand in awe.
Perhaps one day I can touch the hem of your garment.
So here's the obvious question, why are the dealers so preoccupied with their customer rating scores regarding the sales experience?