@driver100 said:
Will they give you a space that is not near a sprinkler?
Actually, we have no spaces around our building unit that have no sprinklers within several feet of the parking space. You keep forgetting - this is Florida and we have "green" everywhere in this condo development. That's why our monthly maintenance fee is now $432 a month which includes grounds (mowing, planting, trimming, sprinklers, etc.) and costs associated with salaries and the like. This condo development has at least fifty 48 unit four story buildings and 30+ older 2-story condo buildings + an 18 hole golf course, two main swimming pools, and each "village" has a main Olympic pool, + a country club and dining area, ballrooms, 20 tennis courts, meeting rooms, and scores of clubs such as woodworking, metal shop, bridge, canasta, etc.
But they just finished replacing all the sprinkler heads around our building - they said there were 6 defective sprinkler heads and most were near my parking space.
When I took the car in for a wash today at the dealership, they had to use a special treatment on the hood and sides of the car to get the "blotches" off. Hopefully, the problem will be solved when the sprinklers go on this afternoon and again tonight.
Same issue here in my development. The sprinkler water comes from a lake on the golf course. Fithy, foul smelling and full of chemicals. Doesn't seem to bother the fish. There are monster bass living the good life because there is no fishing. We keep our cars garaged but the water does spray onto the driveway and stains it badly.
@driver100 said:
I was an elementary school teacher at one time in my illustrious career. I often thought, most of the kids I taught didn't really understand it was a privelege to be able to learn. I believe parents should instill that in their children.
As all of you know, I spent 22 of my 30 years in education in the public school system - 5 years in Chicago's inner-city and 17 years in a far southwest suburban school district (35 miles southwest of Chicago) where I was a school teacher and then a principal (4 years teaching and 13 years principaling) prior to going into private school education in California and Pennsylvania.
In the Chicago Public School System (I was there from 1968-1973) I was in a far west side inner city public school, all African American, where parental support was almost totally lacking with the exception of a small PTO (Parent/Teacher Organization). The toughest aspect of my job when I was teaching there was maintaining discipline and respect for teachers and for other students. Fights were common and I even had a male 6th grade student throw a chair at me while I was walking through the aisles teaching a math class.
There was always a shortage of duplicator paper, textbooks, classroom supplies, etc., so I spent quite a bit of my own money for those items so I could "teach".
Most of my class of 42 students could not read higher than 3rd grade level (I taught 4th, 5th and then 6th grades. I spent most of my time trying to teach my students to read. Math was not a major problem like reading and language. I had NO parental support at all. I took my life into my own hands by doing parent/teacher conferencing in the homes of my students in order to get parents involved in their child's education, both at home and in school. Slowly, but surely, I began to get some parental participation and support during my last year at the school. I was offered a Team Leader Position in a school in the far western suburbs and grabbed it.
In contrast, the schools in that suburban district had very strong parental involvement, both at home and at the school. I had so many parent volunteers on a daily basis, I frequently didn't know what to do with them all. The parent association was strong and very influential in running their schools. I had plentiful textbooks, supplies, teacher aides, and most of the teachers had Master's Degrees. The children were from upper middle income homes and really wanted to learn because they knew how dedicated their parents were to seeing to it they learned.
I always wanted to eventually go back to Chicago Public Schools with what I learned in the suburban schools, but I could never get any support from District Superintendents and there was never enough money to buy what was needed in those classrooms and in the school. So why bother - I had a family to support, mortgage payments, and 2 side jobs to help pay for everything.
When I finally went into administration, I started to earn enough so I could eventually give up the two part-time jobs.
Private schools are a total opposite of what I experienced in Chicago Public Schools. The parents paid the bills, wanted to run the school(s) the way they wanted them run. They go out and spent close to $100,000 a year for a solid Headmaster, and then they wouldn't let the Headmaster run his own school the way he/she thought best. There were always fundraising events to help pay for the expenses of a private school and I found myself involved more in fundraising than in actually running the school. Like I said, a total contradiction of public education.
As for children "wanting to learn" as a privilege, I'm not sure I agree with that philosophy. If you give a child a "reason" to learn, they will want to learn. If you give a child "successes" instead of constant failure, they will want to learn more because they are succeeding.
In the inner cities, children are exposed to "failures" and few successes in the average inner city school. So, if you fail most of the time, why want to learn. Why would they want to keep experiencing more and more failure.
So, the key to success in the inner city schools is to provide constant reinforcement to each child that they can succeed, and make sure they succeed more than they fail. Then, they would want to learn.
My post is getting too long, so I'll sign off and let the rest of you comment.
@graphicguy said:
Mike...is it worth it to get a car cover? Kind of a hassle putting it on and taking it off. But, with no garage.......
It is quite a hassle to put the cover on every evening and then take it off every morning - and then it takes up quite a bit of space in the trunk - so if I go food shopping or mall shopping, it sure limits cargo space.
Also, it has to be tied down under the bumpers, etc.. We have some horrific thunderstorms here in the summers with 60-70 mile an hour winds - I've seen car covers here in the condo community blowing through the streets and parking lots - so even if moderately secured, they still can be blown off. There are a few residents who leave their second cars here when they go north for the summer and they cover their cars.
Also remember, I usually don't keep my cars very long and those covers for Mercedes cars cost a bundle - but, mostly it is the hassle of putting it on and taking it off every day.
Here in southeast Florida, from December through May, is our dry season - very little rainfall. That requires sprinkliners to run twice a day. All parking spaces are in the front of the building adjacent to lots of grass and shrubs.
When one of this sprinkler heads breaks down, it spews less-than-clean water from our lakes all over my car. If I don't dry the car down early in the morning, when the water dries, it leaves these "blotches" all over the car.
This happens at least two or three times a year. Well, it happened Saturday. I called my building rep (luckily he is one of the VP's on the condo board) and they finally arrived this morning (grounds crew) to replace several sprinkler heads by my car.
Of course my car is once again about as soaked as it gets after a thunder storm. The aggravation is that all sprinkler water comes from the many lakes we have that surround the property as well as serve as water hazards for the 18 hole golf course in our condo development. That water is filthy and contaminated, as would be expected.
That's why I hate my parking space.
Mike, I'm confused. I noticed that Driver and Houdini sent their sympathy to Rob2. I sent mine to you. Wasn't it your son's girlfriend's mother who died of breast cancer? With this new software, I often find it confusing as to who posted what and who responded. If it was Rob2 I apologize to you and I send my condolences to him.
I need advice from any and all posters who are willing and who have time. This morning, I had the oil changed and the tires rotated on the Chrysler convertible. While there, they recommended a tune up with new plugs for $180 and a fuel system clean for $142.95. I declined both offers until I could talk with you guys. The car only has 42,168 miles and is six years old. That's an average of 7K miles per year. It seems to be running fine and I've had no problems. Should I spend $322 for these repairs or wait until some point later? Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
@sterlingdog said:
I need advice from any and all posters who are willing and who have time. This morning, I had the oil changed and the tires rotated on the Chrysler convertible. While there, they recommended a tune up with new plugs for $180 and a fuel system clean for $142.95. I declined both offers until I could talk with you guys. The car only has 42,168 miles and is six years old. That's an average of 7K miles per year. It seems to be running fine and I've had no problems. Should I spend $322 for these repairs or wait until some point later? Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
Richard
I'd say no to both. The fuel system cleaning, IMHO, is nothing but a profit maker. I've never done this to any of my cars, and I don't see how it would be any more effective than a bottle of fuel treatment (which I also do not use). On the plugs, I'd follow whatever is recommended in your owner's manual. My guess is they are good for 90-100K.
My 14 y/o Trans Am is still running in its original plugs and wires at 40K. Plug replacement isn't until 100K on this car, which is common on a GM vehicle. The car continues to run great, but I've been thinking of swapping both out strictly due to age.
2024 Ram 1500 Longhorn, 2019 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2019 Ford Mustang GT Premium, 2016 Kia Optima SX, 2000 Pontiac Trans Am WS6
Richard- go by what the manual calls for. Run a Top Tier fuel or a bottle of Techron ever 3-5 thousand miles and you'll be fine. As an aside, I can't believe the dealer wanted $142 for the fuel system cleaning; my BMW dealer charges @$90 for the proprietary BMW procedure- and that includes a 20 oz. bottle of Techron to add at the next fill-up...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
This morning, I had the oil changed and the tires rotated on the Chrysler convertible. While there, they recommended a tune up with new plugs for $180 and a fuel system clean for $142.95. I declined both offers until I could talk with you guys. The car only has 42,168 miles and is six years old.
Check your owners manual near the back for a listing of service intervals for replacement of various items. There is usually a hard use table, which includes shorts trips and lots of idle time, and a higher mileage more normal usage table. It will give a mileage interval for spark plugs. I, too, expect it will be 100,000 mi. Although on a car with low use per year, I would change my own by 80,000 miles because of the larger number of years AND because the spark plug wires deteriorate with time as well as mileage. The plug wires should be replaced at the same time.
As for fuel system cleaning? I'd recommend stopping at your local Walmart and checking the shelf for a Techron product by Chevron. It's a black bottle with a narrow neck. There are two versions. I'd put in the Fuel System Cleaner version although the Fuel Injector Cleaner version would probably suffice as well. There are two sizes of those, but your store may not have both. There's a 12 oz size for 12 gallons of fuel and 20 oz size for up to 20 gal. You pour it into the tank before putting in fuel at the gas station. If your gas tank holds 18 gallons total, I'd use the 20 oz size. Purists recommend putting in premium gasoline when using the cleaners.
If you don't find these at your local Walmart, OReillys (Checkers), PepBoys, Advance Auto Parts, and Autozone, probably have them, but some carry only one size or one version.
@sterlingdog said:
I need advice from any and all posters who are willing and who have
time. This morning, I had the oil changed and the tires rotated on the Chrysler convertible. While there, they recommended a tune up with new plugs for $180 and a fuel system clean for $142.95. I declined both offers until I could talk with you guys. The car only has 42,168 miles and is six years old. That's an average of 7K miles per year. It seems to be running fine and I've had no problems. Should I spend $322 for these repairs or wait until some point later? Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
Richard
Unless you drive through dust storms, the car burns a lot of oil or it sits for many months it seems like overkill.
Are you having any problems like hesitation, lack of power or CEL? If not you can throw a bottle of techtron (may have spelled that wrong) in once a year.
Coincidently, I have the Lincoln in the shop today getting the door handle replaced and I told my mechanic to pull a few plugs to see how they look. He'll replace them if necessary and change the air and fuel filters. The car belonged to an old lady who only drove it about 3000 miles/year. I have seen a transient CEL that doesn't set a code so I thought I'd do some preventive tune up work.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
A short sales story. We shopped and decided to see if dealer could find a Malibu with the exact options we wanted. Saleslady and assured us they could. I had my one price in mind. I estimated the real invoice and subtracted the Open House Sale pricing and the rebates applicable to me. I then adjusted for my trade in. Saleslady was gone to the Pit Boss's office and I listened to the saleman in the next partition talking on the phone to a buyer. I adjusted my price down slightly based on what I learned by overhearing his conversation with the buyer on the phone.
I've always wondered if the offices are wired for sound to hear what people are saying as they wait while the salesman is in the manager's office. I suspected the salesguys on both sides of us could hear. So I told my wife our lowest price and that would be it. I said we could come back and order after the new color of red that's coming in Spring (Butte Red) was available and we could get the exact options we wanted, but maybe not as low a price. And I mentioned the past dealer with whom we dealt with our Buicks and who sells Chevies would give a low price for ordering. And I mentioned another neighboring couple of dealers we could shop later.
After a few minutes, I walked to the rest room and saw the neighboring sales guy in the manager's office with the others. So I wonder if he was there telling what he'd overheard that we weren't going to sit for bump after bump on the car pricing.
@sterlingdog said:Should I spend $322 for these repairs or wait until some point later?
The other guys here are right on. This is a real case of if it ain't broke, don't fix it. You could do some pre-maintenance by adding the fuel additive, might even get rid of some impurities or whatever it does. I remember when I used to drive my old broken down hoopties, I would add some fuel injector stuff, and it usually ruined the engine. But, these days they are probably formulated to do some good.
Most businesses these days are trying to sell you on stuff. Look at my TV, I called customer service and they could have told me to plug in the ear phone jack a couple of times, that sometimes works. Oh no, they would rather send the guy out who will charge $90 for a service call, and who knows how much more to solve the problem.
Every time I take the bmw in for free 4 year maintenance it seems there is something not covered they want to sell me....like wiper blades, alignment, or inside air purifier. You have to protect yourself these days.....always be on guard for the scamsters.
@imidazol97 said:I've always wondered if the offices are wired for soun
I think they used to do that a lot more, but, I always treat that situation as if they can hear me. I don't say anything like....hmmmmmm, that sounded like a good price. I try to say things that lead them to believe I think their price is too high. I find it hard to believe they would have listening devices these days, but, judging from the way my last bmw purchase went, I could swear they knew what I was saying to my wife.
In summary, it is doubtful they are listening...but, I would treat the situation as if they are listening in.
@robr2 said:
Lousy News - the Mom of my son's girlfriend passed away on Saturday. She was 48 YO and battled breast cancer for the past 11 months. It's not fair that someone so young has to leave us so soon.
Please pray for the family if you are so inclined.
Please accept my condolences and I will say a prayer for and all those left behind. May her departed soul rest in eternal peace.
The story just kern growing. Faulty ignition switches, bad power steering, 13 dead! GM tried to hide the truth?
What is it about this company? How many times have they refused to step up and deal with problems? Remember the Northstar engine blowing heads or the 3.8L with it's intake manifold leaks?
Makes it hard to ever trust them.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
No, no, no. You've got it all wrong. That was the old GM that was evil. The new GM's motto is, "Safety First". Of course, that was the old GM's motto also. And yes, it was just a coincidence that the gov. sold all their stake in GM just before this all came out !!
@houdini1 said:
No, no, no. You've got it all wrong. That was the old GM that was evil. The new GM's motto is, "Safety First". Of course, that was the old GM's motto also. And yes, it was just a coincidence that the gov. sold all their stake in GM just before this all came out !!
Now, now. You all heard that GM has announced another recall today - for the owners of the first generation Corvettes that came equipped with "only" a 6-cylinder engine. GM will pay for all of those still left to have a V8 installed into them.
@sterlingdog
My '02 Explorer has 140k on it and still has the original plugs. The engine still runs fine. They will most likely, never get changed.
I did have the plugs and wires changed on my 1991 Mustang last year. Would have done it, but I just couldn't get myself to just rip the old wires off. I'm sure that's what the mechanic did. If I had thought about it, maybe you could have done it for me?
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I've worked at numerous dealers, including used car lot and none of the places i was at had offices wired for sound. However it is normal practice for sales calls to be recorded and then reviewed by the sales manager.
@houdini1 said:
The new GM's motto is, "Safety First".
I never cease to be amazed at the level of animosity toward GM. There are many other companies announcing recalls right now. In fact, one of the "perfect" car companies--if we believe word-of-mouth reputation--has a recall to replace engines. They also had a recall on ignition switch problems in the past.
I ask was there this much animosity toward toyota with their sludging problem which they attempted to hide for a year or two, blaming the consumer for oil change errors when they were following the owner manual guidelines? -animosity toward toyota for their sudden unintended acceleration, which was mislabeled in reports to NHTSA as of short duration events which caused NHTSA to not categorize them higher and I recall that there was someone who had been with toyota who was in NHTSA at the time and I think I recall they were alleged to have been helping smooth over the SUA events at NHTSA.
Note at this time NHTSA is involved in the lack or recalls as well for the GM ignition switch wear or defect.
The committee hearing today was a campaign sham. I was appalled to see a female member of the committee today, was it a Senate committee, being as rude and ruthless toward the CEO of GM as she could be. She talked meanly about GM not taking responsibility and doing investigations in the past. And all I could think was about the lack of action from our Senate about people dying other places that Congress should be investigating and let Mary Barra have the independent investigation she kept telling them was in place. But I digress. Today was another campaign show to make people at home think the politicians are doing something. I see Mary Barra being a very serious and nasty boss for those who didn't make this a serious matter in the past. She'll do the job. She is a very effective leader as I read her voice and her body language.
So I suggest talking about the other recalls as well as this one with some tragic deaths involved. Let the investigation take place and let Ms. Barra run its course. It will be faster than Congress's getting around to investigating some of the awful things in our government they should investigate.
--soapbox off.
@boomchek said:
I've worked at numerous dealers, including used car lot and none of the places i was at had offices wired for sound. However it is normal practice for sales calls to be recorded and then reviewed by the sales manager.
When I worked as a salesman in the Lexus dealership, management would always record sales calls and then review them. If they found salesmen mishandling those calls, they were not allowed to take sales calls for 1 month until they attended special training classes.
When I was a sales manager at a dealership, we didn't record sales calls at all.
As for "wired" offices, never saw one, never heard of one, and there were none in any of the dealerships I worked.
Most dealerships now have all sales desks out on the floor with no walls - just glass partitions - with a desk and computer station and phone. This is a new way of doing business - no closed offices, etc. Even the finance offices have no doors. The concept is to "open" the dealerships up so they are not foreboding or ominous to the customers when they come inside.
@driver100 said:
Did you use the bookmark feature? Press on the star on the right side...just below your Edmunds name. It will tell you how many new messages there are. It will take you to the last message where you left off. If you have a problem many posters here can explain it way better than I can.
Thanks Driver. That's exactly what I do. But instead of taking me to the last message I read. It takes me to the last message that was available when I last logged in -- regardless of whether I read them or not.
@sterlingdog said:
I need advice from any and all posters who are willing and who have time. This morning, I had the oil changed and the tires rotated on the Chrysler convertible. While there, they recommended a tune up with new plugs for $180 and a fuel system clean for $142.95. I declined both offers until I could talk with you guys. The car only has 42,168 miles and is six years old. That's an average of 7K miles per year. It seems to be running fine and I've had no problems. Should I spend $322 for these repairs or wait until some point later? Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
Richard
I didn't change the plugs on my Sebring until a little over 80K miles where I changed the plugs and some of the filters.
Good gas has cleaning compounds in them and your fuel system should be OK and not in need of a cleaning.
I would wait for the plugs and not do the fuel system clean.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
@graphicguy said:
Richard...fiance is indeed a very caring and compassionate person. She always says she has the perfect job teaching 2nd graders. You don't often hear people say that, particularly given the status of the American Education System these days.
Hi GG,
Looks like I missed some important news. Congratulations on your engagement! I didn't quite understand the funding part, but congratulations there too.
@imidazol97 said:
I never cease to be amazed at the level of animosity toward GM.
I don't think there is animosity toward GM products, styling, or quality, imidazol. I think it is more of an animosity toward how big automakers handle problems with their products. Let me explain further.
Toyota's products have always been of top quality - and when they came out with the Lexus in 1989, it was further proof of their quality and workmanship. Toyota began to grow so quickly that they became insensitive to the complaints from the public about some of their products in the 2000's. It was the "attitude" of their management and administration that caused serious reservations about Toyota. They turned their noses up at those complaints, even in the face of some disastrous accidents and loss of life. It is not the product concerns so much as the ATTITUDE CONCERNS that have cost them billions and billions of dollars. Finally, they are starting to pay attention to problems and management is more sensitive to complaints and concerns.
As for GM, both old and new, it was not an attitude problem as it was for Toyota. It was a company "policy" to not divulge that there actually were problems with their vehicles, even after many deaths attributed to a faulty ignition. GM knew about the problem and its cause, but did not overtly deal with it as they should have. So, in retrospect, GM was being irresponsible by withholding that information, at least this is what I have found after several weeks reading as much as I could about both companies. Toyota had investigated the sudden acceleration problem and had found no problems - so they brushed aside the waves of complaints coming in and continued growing so big and so fast that they developed "elephantiasis" (a real word to describe a company's management that is slow to respond because of its size and/or policies).
Audi had problems with that sudden acceleration problem and did the same thing that Toyota did - they buried their heads in the sand since their engineers found no problems and look where that got them? It has taken Audi 30 years to finally recover from that misjudgment on their part.
Mercedes Benz suffered tremendously in the late 1990's and early 2000's because of Chrysler. They were paying so much attention to Chrysler that they forgot about their own brand. A friend of mine was a sales manager at a Mercedes Dealer in the Tampa area for several years during this time. He left because of the poor quality of the Mercedes and the number of lemon law buybacks that he had to deal with. The Mercedes name was now in jeopardy because of their inattention to the complaints about their product's quality. They were trying to bring Chrysler up to snuff and they found out quickly that they could not do two major operations at the same time - fix Chrysler and continue to build a truly great German luxury automobile. So management was changed, Chrysler was unloaded, and they learned their lesson. Mercedes struggled for a long time to come back from that disaster.
There are many other examples - but as usual, I have overstated what I wanted to share.
Every automobile manufacturer has faced similar situations, but GM didn't investigate the ignition problem and find nothing - they knew what it was! They just made a policy decision to withhold the information for as long as they could - but now when they got caught it could cost them like it cost Toyota and I am not sure if they can withstand that kind of drainage of capital.
GM produces one of the finest cars made - the Cadillac. It has come from the depths bowels of the earth to the top of the world in design, quality and performance. There are great things about GM, but we are not talking about their products here, we are talking about their "attitudes".
Not sure if I agree with you on everything. Audi's unintended acceleration was IMHO a hatchet job, as if it were true, same problems would have shown up in other markets than US. Toyota's problems had more to do with pursuit of rapid sales marketshare at expense of quality. GM's issues were result of long and slow deterioration in conditions, from increased competition to militant workforce, combined with inept, self-serving management unable/unwilling to address core problems, always full of lame excuses and ready blame somebody else. Many big Midwestern industrial manufacturers had similar problems to those GM had, but their managements cleaned up their houses some time in late 80s or early 90s, but GM was the worst of them all, years after Caterpillar, Cummins, or Emerson fixed their problems. The hostility to GM may be overdone today, but it runs so deep because the process of goodwill loss was so prolonged that it will now take one customer at the time, literally - and no complaints of currency manipulation, or similar nonsense excuses in the process.
I'm not conviced Benz's problems were all Chrysler. I think they started before. It was mostly policy decision on cutting longevity, while imcreasing complexity (now everybody seems to be suffering it), as they noticed their new car buyer kept the car for only few years. As warranties and "free stuff while new" grew, the product became a major nightmare after that period to point of detriment to new ones. The reason is simple - if one plans breakdows after say 4 or 5 years, probability of earlier ones also increased. I'm not convinced MB solved that yet. They may sware they did, but only time will tell.
@abacomike said:
It is not the product concerns so much as the ATTITUDE CONCERNS that have cost them billions and billions of dollars.
We'll disagree on toyota. After spending a couple of years trying to Firestone the sludge problem and blaming everything but faulty engine design, they finally condescended to a recall.
On the SUA, I still believe thre was more to it than floor mats and sticky accelerator sensors. A few have looked into electronics more than originally done. The NASA scam was a narrow check on radio frequency interaction with the car's electronics. The initial pictures when journalists went to headquarters to ask about the problems and were met by representatives of toyota outside with gauze masks over their nose and mouth as if these foreigners from America might be carrying the plague really turned me off. This was toyota's second major problem hitting the front page, and they are acting zenophobic.
In my latest shopping spree I did drive a 4-cyl Accord, but couldn't even bring myself to test drive a Camry. toyota has had deaths. Now GM has deaths that likely shouldn't have happened. Why such a disparate treatment? I think it goes to the media again with its treatment of the bailouts. And for some older folk it goes back to the 70s and the military/industrial complex animosity when GM was the 9th largest economy IIRC.
I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with everything I posted, Dino. You bring up additional points that I thought about, but felt they were of less importance than attitudes, subterfuge and organizations becoming so huge that there is a breakdown in the communications and controls internally.
Yes, unions, competition, and egotism etc., contributed - but one has to look at their corporate ethos as well - the big picture.
I'm a Ford guy, and people still bring up the 'Pinto thing'.
GM made decisions over a long term to ignore/cover up the ignition issue.
That's pretty bad. My opinion is that the list of vehicles affected is going to get quite a bit bigger. They are just expanding the group a bit at a time.
I don't believe the '13' number or the '300' number, but it's probably somewhere between them.
Mary Berra is currently facing the congressional music, but hopefully there is enough integrity to seek justice from the real perpetrators. (Yeah right, it is April Fools Day).:(
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
@explorerx4 said:
I'm a Ford guy, and people still bring up the 'Pinto thing'.
I had a 79 Mustang Pace Car that I won and when I got underneath there was the diaper over the front of the gas tank so the differential wouldn't puncture it in the event of a rear end collision. Really it was more of a protection against the secondary impact when the damaged tank is leaking fuel and the second impact causes sparks which ignites the fuel. Sad.
Another 1 million cars recalled. Oh wait. It's not GM. It's Nissan for air bag software problems. Just like in GM's if the air bags don't inflate, it's going to take the air out of your day.
Or the 900,000 for fire potential. That's not GM, it's Honda Odysseys. And the 10,000 for pinched tires on Civics. And then there's the Civic engine switch recall.
But the big focus is on GM. I'd think the MSM would cut them a break because of the UAW's involvement with GM and UAW's leanings.
@abacomike said:The concept is to "open" the dealerships up so they are not foreboding or ominous to the customers when they come inside.
Open can still be wired. Like I said, I don't think it is being done, but I wouldn't put it past a dealer to do it. I know I have been left in the office with my wife for a few minutes, and I am very careful about what I say. If I do want to discuss something with my wife we go fo a walk or a coffee. I know when we talked about getting a 328 or a 335 the discussion we had sounded similar to the comments the salesman made when he returned - probably a coincidence, but better to be safe than sorry, just in case.
@verdugo said:It takes me to the last message that was available when I last logged in -- regardless of whether I read them or not.
I thought that could be what you meant. It can't know where you left off, but I have thought that would be a nice feature to have...a way to mark what the last message was that you actually read. I guess you could write down the date and time of the last message - and the page number too. You have to decide if it is worth it, but you could miss out on a lot of valuable information if you don't have a system.
@dino001 said:Not sure if I agree with you on everything. Audi's unintended acceleration was IMHO a hatchet job
>
Good comments Dino and Mike. I think the Audi problem was just the gas and brake pedal were too close. There is a lot of truth in what you wrote.
It seems that GMs problems are particularly bad because there is direct proof they knew about the problem as early as 2001. They knew the part was faulty and not made to the proper standards and yet they still used them...the part was worth 57 cents. They made a decision they could fight the allegations and scare people into not going after them. At least 13 people...usually young people who wanted a sharp looking inexpensive new car. If you follow the paper trail this was not just a mistake, this was a calculated cover-up - and they were caught.
Mary Barra avoided answering the questions with real answers. It shouldn't have happened, it won't happen gain, I don't know why it happened etc. These days, when profits are the number 1 priority, companies will do anything to save dollars....unfortunately this one cost at least 13 lives....it should never have happened.
April is always a nice month here in Florida as the snowbirds follow the geese north for the warmer months. The parking lot is beginning to thin out and the traffic is ebbing, ever so slowly.
The roof replacement on our building is completed and the main entrance to the community is supposed to open in 2 weeks after bring closed for construction for 11 months. The sprinklers have been replaced so I won't have those blotches all over the car every morning.
Yes, April is a nice month here in Florida as things are finally looking up. Life has its ups and downs - but April is definitely an UP month!
@verdugo said:
Looks like I missed some important news. Congratulations on your engagement! I didn't quite understand the funding part, but congratulations there too.
Thanks , Verdugo!
It looks like Costco finally went for Top Tier status for their fuels...
"It looks like Costco finally went for Top Tier status for their fuels..."
Good info, GG. I think I'll try a few tankfulls of Costco Premium. Their pricing is really the same as Chevron and BP down here at the moment. Premium is running $3.99 a gallon at Chevron and Costco is. $3.92.9.
According to my newspaper, premium is up because of a shortage of ethanol forcing Florida to bid on gasoline coming out of the mid-Atlantic region. The oil spill near Houston has also created a problem for Florida because we usually receive our supplies from the gulf area refineries.
To all - thanks for your condolences. The wake is today and we have to park about a mile away and take a shuttle bus to the funeral home as they expect hundreds of guests. Our church is hosting the collation after the service tomorrow as the crowd is expected to be very big.
My 17 YO son is trying his best to provide support for his girlfriend. He's doing a great job and I hope he knows that. The positive thing is that the family is trying to keep things as normal as possible as per the Mom's wishes. His girlfriend was supposed to have hosted an exchange student from Italy last and this week. She is staying with another family as that made sense but the girlfriend is still involved with the visiting group. She performed in a play on Sunday, went to a Celtics game on Monday and went to NY with the Italian group on Tuesday. The other two kids have been going to school and have Aunts and friends shuttling them to dance and lacrosse.
This will be the third death/wake/funeral our family has dealt with in the past 10 days.
I was making sales calls in CT yesterday. Musings from the trip:
Why is there a set of stop lights on Rt 9 in Middletown, CT? This is a 4 lane divided highway at 65 mph and all of a sudden - lights!!
Rt 95 from New Haven to Niantic is a very pretty ride.
I entered a rotary in Stratford and discovered that cars in the rotary have to yield. Is that CT thing or just that one? In MA, the rule is cars in the rotary have the right of way.
@driver100 said:
It seems that GMs problems are particularly bad because there is direct proof they knew about the problem as early as 2001. They knew the part was faulty and not made to the proper standards and yet they still used them...the part was worth 57 cents. They made a decision they could fight the allegations and scare people into not going after them. At least 13 people...usually young people who wanted a sharp looking inexpensive new car. If you follow the paper trail this was not just a mistake, this was a calculated cover-up - and they were caught.
You've been taking the media reports at face value, always a mistake. You need to remember the context, first of all. The vehicle was designed at the time of GM's great dysfunction, when they were obsessed with taking cost out of vehicles ruthlessly because they were losing money hand over fist. That alone led to many bad decisions. Delphi, the supplier, was heading into bankruptcy years ahead of GM's own, so who knows what role they played. GM meanwhile was shedding white-collar engineering and management jobs like a dog shedding hair. It was a very bad time in their history.
No question that mistakes were made. As to the decisions made once the problem became known, who knows? Most of those people are likely no longer there. Hell, the company that made those decisions is technically no longer there. The mention of a cover-up sounds juicy, but was more likely one of assessing what was known about the incidents - which were coming to light mostly right as GM was spiraling down into bankruptcy, remember - versus what was required to fix it. Remember, the change to the part had already happened by that point. If there is a paper trail that confirms a "cover-up", then fine. But for now it sounds like a media/congressional sound bite more than fact.
We all know that once you get to the congressional hearing stage, any semblance of reality goes out the window. At that stage it is all about staging a media circus, with politicians trying to look good in front of the cameras while trying to find a scapegoat for whatever the issue is. And the media are only too happy to act as an accomplice for the political hacks. You have to be smart enough not to take everything they say at face value.
I notice that the early reports about many of these deceased drivers being drunk/stoned out of their gourds when they wrapped their Cobalts, around telephone poles have not been reported recently. Suddenly they are all just innocent victims. I think that tells you a lot. Mary Barra is not the culprit here. In a company the size of GM it is unlikely there is any single culprit, since all decisions were made and approved by committee in those days inside GM's byzantine structure. But she is now the company's CEO and quite rightly has to speak on its behalf. Just don't impute things to her that she had nothing to do with.
@ab348 said:
We all know that once you get to the congressional hearing stage, any semblance of reality goes out the window. At that stage it is all about staging a media circus, with politicians trying to look good in front of the cameras while trying to find a scapegoat for whatever the issue is. And the media are only too happy to act as an accomplice for the political hacks. You have to be smart enough not to take everything they say at face value.
x1: totally agree.
It's coming up on election time for some of these folks in DC. They have to show why they have been "working" for their constituents back home. One way is to get seen in a clip being nasty toward the awful CEO.
Second factor is that this is a serious matter with the deaths. However, at a time when toyota is still having court cases resisting payouts over their yet-to-be-totally-explained SUA, GM has acquired the services of the person who set up the financial settlements for 911, Boston Marathon, and BP spill. While the settlements won't bring back people dead or injured, they are most of what the families are after.
Third is that Mary Barra has said that it's a big incident over a long period of time within the company, 10 years, and it takes time for the independent investigator to unravel. The politicians are acting like they think it's CSI and should be unraveled with 30 minutes. Barra also said already that one part of the company didn't communicate information to another part where the flags might have gone up that there was more risk involved than just replacing bad contacts in an electrical part since it also powered the airbags.
Fourth is that the news media loves blood as long as it's not from one of their beloved folks. AND it's a time when they really want to take attention away from the administration and the failures here and abroad. So talking about Malaysia 370 and GM are great distractions until the Final Four this weekend. I'm still amazed how some of these elected folks in DC have no interest in other deaths in Libia or in the IRS misusing its powers, but they go nasty over a company that has admitted moral guilt to as great an extent possible without damaging any legal rights they have.
Sixth, look for other car companies to do Friday dumps of more recalls, which the media folks will mention hardly since all the attention is on GM.
A test that works is to switch the parties involved and predict how the media will cover a tragedy like this. Were this Ford which hadn't been involved in a bankruptcy, how would this be covered by CBS, NBC, ABC? --Honda? --VW? --Hyundai/Kia?
@robr2 said:
I was making sales calls in CT yesterday. Musings from the trip:
Why is there a set of stop lights on Rt 9 in Middletown, CT? This is a 4 lane divided highway at 65 mph and all of a sudden - lights!!
Ouch - I remember when there were stop lights on US 101 (also a 4 lane divided highway) in Santa Barbara. The powers that be wanted everyone to stop and spend some money there. It wasn't until the late 80's or so that they finally got rid of them.
I entered a rotary in Stratford and discovered that cars in the rotary have to yield. Is that CT thing or just that one? In MA, the rule is cars in the rotary have the right of way.
It's the same in Colorado - cars in the traffic circle have the right of way. Not that everyone understands that, however.
"It looks like Costco finally went for Top Tier status for their fuels..."
Good info, GG. I think I'll try a few tankfulls of Costco Premium. Their pricing is really the same as Chevron and BP down here at the moment. Premium is running $3.99 a gallon at Chevron and Costco is. $3.92.9.
According to my newspaper, premium is up because of a shortage of ethanol forcing Florida to bid on gasoline coming out of the mid-Atlantic region. The oil spill near Houston has also created a problem for Florida because we usually receive our supplies from the gulf area refineries.
Mike....some of the reasoning for gas price fluctuation borders on fantasy....to the point I don't believe any of the reporting I see. The simple facts remain, gas prices should be plummeting. The world is in a pretty steep decline for oil demand. The U.S. and Canada in particular are providing more and more of our own supply of gas.
Yet, the industry as a whole is still trying to prop up prices with insulting excuses for gas prices. I have stuck with Costco gas, almost exclusively (unless I'm traveling out of town) for a decade with zero problems. And, at worst, they're a penny or two a gallon less than everyone else. Usually, they're a nickel or a dime per gallon less. Lots of times, they're 30¢-40¢/gal less than everyone else. They don't play the "I'm raising prices because everyone else in the area is doing it" game.
They stand behind the product they sell. I have no doubt in my mind that if something ever did go haywire with my car that was fuel related, Costco would take care of it.
I had seen the "Top Tier" rating on their pump when I filled up last night. I came home to look up their rating at the Top Tier site....lo and behold, there they are.
Thanks so much to all of my poster friends who gave me advice on the tune-up and the fuel flush. The Chrysler manual says to change the plugs on the 2.7L engine at 30K. The two other engine types aren't to be done until 100K. Mine is the 2.7L engine. Still, 30K seems like low mileage for a change of plugs. I've never done this before on my other cars and think that I won't now. I figured that the fuel flush was a rip-off. We've discussed this one before. I am glad to know about the Techron by Chevron and will definitely buy a bottle of that. Thanks again for the good advice.
Explorer: Yes, I would have been the perfect person to pull the wires on your plugs. I've had considerable experience in that field.
Stickguy: You suggested that, instead of a tune-up, I just get a new car. I think that is going to happen this summer. We received intent letters yesterday from a Texas company who wants one of the plots for sale on our Alabama farm. Though it's not a contract yet, we are in negotiations over the price per acre. If my evil and dishonest BIL doesn't screw it up, we may do well on this deal. We would have done better on the last deal if I hadn't had to hire a real estate attorney to threaten my BIL with some jail time. At least now, he knows that my wife and I are watching him like a hawk. It's pretty sad when family turns out to be your worst enemy.
@sterlingdog - I missed the fact that the engine was the 2.7. That wasn't the greatest engine Chrysler ever sold, and they have a checkered history. If the manual calls for a plug change that early (which surprises me) I might do it. The fuel system thing I would handle with the Techron.
@robr2 said:
I was making sales calls in CT yesterday. Musings from the trip:
Why is there a set of stop lights on Rt 9 in Middletown, CT? This is a 4 lane divided highway at 65 mph and all of a sudden - lights!!
Rt 95 from New Haven to Niantic is a very pretty ride.
I entered a rotary in Stratford and discovered that cars in the rotary have to yield. Is that CT thing or just that one? In MA, the rule is cars in the rotary have the right of way.
Robr2, we call them "round-a-bouts" here in North Carolina. They are becoming quite the thing to do. Our rule is that once in the circle, you hold the right of way. The problem that I've noticed in some of our smaller towns is that the circles are too small in diameter. That makes for tight driving. We're building a new one in our downtown area. We'll see if they do it right.
Imid and MIke....I keep thinking about Bob Lutz's book regarding GM. I want them to succeed. Bad news for GM doesn't help anyone. Yet, they stubbornly continue to believe nothing is their fault. Even now, when they're clearly wrong about the Cruz issues, they are looking for excuses.
First, they refused to acknowledge they had a problem. Then, when all the customers reported the problem to them, they tried to say it was "driver error" (as Imid points out, this was Toyota's answer, too).
When your customers are reporting that your cars stop dead in their tracks, on the interstate, on the roadways, etc, you have a problem. I've read more than one story stating that GM has tried to intimidate their customers with a blizzard of litigation if they tried to go up against them.
Now, they're saying "not our problem...we sold those cars when the company wasn't on good footing". Really? That makes it OK, then?
I was for the auto bailouts. But, when I hear of this stuff, I wonder if it wasn't time for a clean sweep. The "attitude" and lack of culpability is staggering. There are just too many execs left there that just don't get it. Maybe Ford had it right all along. They fixed themselves.
Comments
Actually, we have no spaces around our building unit that have no sprinklers within several feet of the parking space. You keep forgetting - this is Florida and we have "green" everywhere in this condo development. That's why our monthly maintenance fee is now $432 a month which includes grounds (mowing, planting, trimming, sprinklers, etc.) and costs associated with salaries and the like. This condo development has at least fifty 48 unit four story buildings and 30+ older 2-story condo buildings + an 18 hole golf course, two main swimming pools, and each "village" has a main Olympic pool, + a country club and dining area, ballrooms, 20 tennis courts, meeting rooms, and scores of clubs such as woodworking, metal shop, bridge, canasta, etc.
But they just finished replacing all the sprinkler heads around our building - they said there were 6 defective sprinkler heads and most were near my parking space.
When I took the car in for a wash today at the dealership, they had to use a special treatment on the hood and sides of the car to get the "blotches" off. Hopefully, the problem will be solved when the sprinklers go on this afternoon and again tonight.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Same issue here in my development. The sprinkler water comes from a lake on the golf course. Fithy, foul smelling and full of chemicals. Doesn't seem to bother the fish. There are monster bass living the good life because there is no fishing. We keep our cars garaged but the water does spray onto the driveway and stains it badly.
As all of you know, I spent 22 of my 30 years in education in the public school system - 5 years in Chicago's inner-city and 17 years in a far southwest suburban school district (35 miles southwest of Chicago) where I was a school teacher and then a principal (4 years teaching and 13 years principaling) prior to going into private school education in California and Pennsylvania.
In the Chicago Public School System (I was there from 1968-1973) I was in a far west side inner city public school, all African American, where parental support was almost totally lacking with the exception of a small PTO (Parent/Teacher Organization). The toughest aspect of my job when I was teaching there was maintaining discipline and respect for teachers and for other students. Fights were common and I even had a male 6th grade student throw a chair at me while I was walking through the aisles teaching a math class.
There was always a shortage of duplicator paper, textbooks, classroom supplies, etc., so I spent quite a bit of my own money for those items so I could "teach".
Most of my class of 42 students could not read higher than 3rd grade level (I taught 4th, 5th and then 6th grades. I spent most of my time trying to teach my students to read. Math was not a major problem like reading and language. I had NO parental support at all. I took my life into my own hands by doing parent/teacher conferencing in the homes of my students in order to get parents involved in their child's education, both at home and in school. Slowly, but surely, I began to get some parental participation and support during my last year at the school. I was offered a Team Leader Position in a school in the far western suburbs and grabbed it.
In contrast, the schools in that suburban district had very strong parental involvement, both at home and at the school. I had so many parent volunteers on a daily basis, I frequently didn't know what to do with them all. The parent association was strong and very influential in running their schools. I had plentiful textbooks, supplies, teacher aides, and most of the teachers had Master's Degrees. The children were from upper middle income homes and really wanted to learn because they knew how dedicated their parents were to seeing to it they learned.
I always wanted to eventually go back to Chicago Public Schools with what I learned in the suburban schools, but I could never get any support from District Superintendents and there was never enough money to buy what was needed in those classrooms and in the school. So why bother - I had a family to support, mortgage payments, and 2 side jobs to help pay for everything.
When I finally went into administration, I started to earn enough so I could eventually give up the two part-time jobs.
Private schools are a total opposite of what I experienced in Chicago Public Schools. The parents paid the bills, wanted to run the school(s) the way they wanted them run. They go out and spent close to $100,000 a year for a solid Headmaster, and then they wouldn't let the Headmaster run his own school the way he/she thought best. There were always fundraising events to help pay for the expenses of a private school and I found myself involved more in fundraising than in actually running the school. Like I said, a total contradiction of public education.
As for children "wanting to learn" as a privilege, I'm not sure I agree with that philosophy. If you give a child a "reason" to learn, they will want to learn. If you give a child "successes" instead of constant failure, they will want to learn more because they are succeeding.
In the inner cities, children are exposed to "failures" and few successes in the average inner city school. So, if you fail most of the time, why want to learn. Why would they want to keep experiencing more and more failure.
So, the key to success in the inner city schools is to provide constant reinforcement to each child that they can succeed, and make sure they succeed more than they fail. Then, they would want to learn.
My post is getting too long, so I'll sign off and let the rest of you comment.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
It is quite a hassle to put the cover on every evening and then take it off every morning - and then it takes up quite a bit of space in the trunk - so if I go food shopping or mall shopping, it sure limits cargo space.
Also, it has to be tied down under the bumpers, etc.. We have some horrific thunderstorms here in the summers with 60-70 mile an hour winds - I've seen car covers here in the condo community blowing through the streets and parking lots - so even if moderately secured, they still can be blown off. There are a few residents who leave their second cars here when they go north for the summer and they cover their cars.
Also remember, I usually don't keep my cars very long and those covers for Mercedes cars cost a bundle - but, mostly it is the hassle of putting it on and taking it off every day.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Mike, I'm confused. I noticed that Driver and Houdini sent their sympathy to Rob2. I sent mine to you. Wasn't it your son's girlfriend's mother who died of breast cancer? With this new software, I often find it confusing as to who posted what and who responded. If it was Rob2 I apologize to you and I send my condolences to him.
Richard
No, Richard, it was robr's. I posted about my "wife's" passing of the same disease at the same age.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Richard
I need advice from any and all posters who are willing and who have time. This morning, I had the oil changed and the tires rotated on the Chrysler convertible. While there, they recommended a tune up with new plugs for $180 and a fuel system clean for $142.95. I declined both offers until I could talk with you guys. The car only has 42,168 miles and is six years old. That's an average of 7K miles per year. It seems to be running fine and I've had no problems. Should I spend $322 for these repairs or wait until some point later? Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
Richard
I'd say no to both. The fuel system cleaning, IMHO, is nothing but a profit maker. I've never done this to any of my cars, and I don't see how it would be any more effective than a bottle of fuel treatment (which I also do not use). On the plugs, I'd follow whatever is recommended in your owner's manual. My guess is they are good for 90-100K.
My 14 y/o Trans Am is still running in its original plugs and wires at 40K. Plug replacement isn't until 100K on this car, which is common on a GM vehicle. The car continues to run great, but I've been thinking of swapping both out strictly due to age.
2024 Ram 1500 Longhorn, 2019 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2019 Ford Mustang GT Premium, 2016 Kia Optima SX, 2000 Pontiac Trans Am WS6
Richard- go by what the manual calls for. Run a Top Tier fuel or a bottle of Techron ever 3-5 thousand miles and you'll be fine. As an aside, I can't believe the dealer wanted $142 for the fuel system cleaning; my BMW dealer charges @$90 for the proprietary BMW procedure- and that includes a 20 oz. bottle of Techron to add at the next fill-up...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
This morning, I had the oil changed and the tires rotated on the Chrysler convertible. While there, they recommended a tune up with new plugs for $180 and a fuel system clean for $142.95. I declined both offers until I could talk with you guys. The car only has 42,168 miles and is six years old.
Check your owners manual near the back for a listing of service intervals for replacement of various items. There is usually a hard use table, which includes shorts trips and lots of idle time, and a higher mileage more normal usage table. It will give a mileage interval for spark plugs. I, too, expect it will be 100,000 mi. Although on a car with low use per year, I would change my own by 80,000 miles because of the larger number of years AND because the spark plug wires deteriorate with time as well as mileage. The plug wires should be replaced at the same time.
As for fuel system cleaning? I'd recommend stopping at your local Walmart and checking the shelf for a Techron product by Chevron. It's a black bottle with a narrow neck. There are two versions. I'd put in the Fuel System Cleaner version although the Fuel Injector Cleaner version would probably suffice as well. There are two sizes of those, but your store may not have both. There's a 12 oz size for 12 gallons of fuel and 20 oz size for up to 20 gal. You pour it into the tank before putting in fuel at the gas station. If your gas tank holds 18 gallons total, I'd use the 20 oz size. Purists recommend putting in premium gasoline when using the cleaners.
If you don't find these at your local Walmart, OReillys (Checkers), PepBoys, Advance Auto Parts, and Autozone, probably have them, but some carry only one size or one version.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Vote no also. Especially since it is not a DI engine. Do add the techron.
Actually, trade it in and buy something else.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
time. This morning, I had the oil changed and the tires rotated on the Chrysler convertible. While there, they recommended a tune up with new plugs for $180 and a fuel system clean for $142.95. I declined both offers until I could talk with you guys. The car only has 42,168 miles and is six years old. That's an average of 7K miles per year. It seems to be running fine and I've had no problems. Should I spend $322 for these repairs or wait until some point later? Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
Unless you drive through dust storms, the car burns a lot of oil or it sits for many months it seems like overkill.
Are you having any problems like hesitation, lack of power or CEL? If not you can throw a bottle of techtron (may have spelled that wrong) in once a year.
Coincidently, I have the Lincoln in the shop today getting the door handle replaced and I told my mechanic to pull a few plugs to see how they look. He'll replace them if necessary and change the air and fuel filters. The car belonged to an old lady who only drove it about 3000 miles/year. I have seen a transient CEL that doesn't set a code so I thought I'd do some preventive tune up work.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
A short sales story. We shopped and decided to see if dealer could find a Malibu with the exact options we wanted. Saleslady and assured us they could. I had my one price in mind. I estimated the real invoice and subtracted the Open House Sale pricing and the rebates applicable to me. I then adjusted for my trade in. Saleslady was gone to the Pit Boss's office and I listened to the saleman in the next partition talking on the phone to a buyer. I adjusted my price down slightly based on what I learned by overhearing his conversation with the buyer on the phone.
I've always wondered if the offices are wired for sound to hear what people are saying as they wait while the salesman is in the manager's office. I suspected the salesguys on both sides of us could hear. So I told my wife our lowest price and that would be it. I said we could come back and order after the new color of red that's coming in Spring (Butte Red) was available and we could get the exact options we wanted, but maybe not as low a price. And I mentioned the past dealer with whom we dealt with our Buicks and who sells Chevies would give a low price for ordering. And I mentioned another neighboring couple of dealers we could shop later.
After a few minutes, I walked to the rest room and saw the neighboring sales guy in the manager's office with the others. So I wonder if he was there telling what he'd overheard that we weren't going to sit for bump after bump on the car pricing.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The other guys here are right on. This is a real case of if it ain't broke, don't fix it. You could do some pre-maintenance by adding the fuel additive, might even get rid of some impurities or whatever it does. I remember when I used to drive my old broken down hoopties, I would add some fuel injector stuff, and it usually ruined the engine. But, these days they are probably formulated to do some good.
Most businesses these days are trying to sell you on stuff. Look at my TV, I called customer service and they could have told me to plug in the ear phone jack a couple of times, that sometimes works. Oh no, they would rather send the guy out who will charge $90 for a service call, and who knows how much more to solve the problem.
Every time I take the bmw in for free 4 year maintenance it seems there is something not covered they want to sell me....like wiper blades, alignment, or inside air purifier. You have to protect yourself these days.....always be on guard for the scamsters.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I think they used to do that a lot more, but, I always treat that situation as if they can hear me. I don't say anything like....hmmmmmm, that sounded like a good price. I try to say things that lead them to believe I think their price is too high. I find it hard to believe they would have listening devices these days, but, judging from the way my last bmw purchase went, I could swear they knew what I was saying to my wife.
In summary, it is doubtful they are listening...but, I would treat the situation as if they are listening in.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Please accept my condolences and I will say a prayer for and all those left behind. May her departed soul rest in eternal peace.
What's this about GM?
The story just kern growing. Faulty ignition switches, bad power steering, 13 dead! GM tried to hide the truth?
What is it about this company? How many times have they refused to step up and deal with problems? Remember the Northstar engine blowing heads or the 3.8L with it's intake manifold leaks?
Makes it hard to ever trust them.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
No, no, no. You've got it all wrong. That was the old GM that was evil. The new GM's motto is, "Safety First". Of course, that was the old GM's motto also. And yes, it was just a coincidence that the gov. sold all their stake in GM just before this all came out !!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Now, now. You all heard that GM has announced another recall today - for the owners of the first generation Corvettes that came equipped with "only" a 6-cylinder engine. GM will pay for all of those still left to have a V8 installed into them.
I call that going above and beyond!
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and let us know! Post a pic of your new purchase or lease!
MODERATOR
2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
@sterlingdog
My '02 Explorer has 140k on it and still has the original plugs. The engine still runs fine. They will most likely, never get changed.
I did have the plugs and wires changed on my 1991 Mustang last year. Would have done it, but I just couldn't get myself to just rip the old wires off. I'm sure that's what the mechanic did. If I had thought about it, maybe you could have done it for me?
I've worked at numerous dealers, including used car lot and none of the places i was at had offices wired for sound. However it is normal practice for sales calls to be recorded and then reviewed by the sales manager.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I never cease to be amazed at the level of animosity toward GM. There are many other companies announcing recalls right now. In fact, one of the "perfect" car companies--if we believe word-of-mouth reputation--has a recall to replace engines. They also had a recall on ignition switch problems in the past.
I ask was there this much animosity toward toyota with their sludging problem which they attempted to hide for a year or two, blaming the consumer for oil change errors when they were following the owner manual guidelines? -animosity toward toyota for their sudden unintended acceleration, which was mislabeled in reports to NHTSA as of short duration events which caused NHTSA to not categorize them higher and I recall that there was someone who had been with toyota who was in NHTSA at the time and I think I recall they were alleged to have been helping smooth over the SUA events at NHTSA.
Note at this time NHTSA is involved in the lack or recalls as well for the GM ignition switch wear or defect.
The committee hearing today was a campaign sham. I was appalled to see a female member of the committee today, was it a Senate committee, being as rude and ruthless toward the CEO of GM as she could be. She talked meanly about GM not taking responsibility and doing investigations in the past. And all I could think was about the lack of action from our Senate about people dying other places that Congress should be investigating and let Mary Barra have the independent investigation she kept telling them was in place. But I digress. Today was another campaign show to make people at home think the politicians are doing something. I see Mary Barra being a very serious and nasty boss for those who didn't make this a serious matter in the past. She'll do the job. She is a very effective leader as I read her voice and her body language.
So I suggest talking about the other recalls as well as this one with some tragic deaths involved. Let the investigation take place and let Ms. Barra run its course. It will be faster than Congress's getting around to investigating some of the awful things in our government they should investigate.
--soapbox off.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
When I worked as a salesman in the Lexus dealership, management would always record sales calls and then review them. If they found salesmen mishandling those calls, they were not allowed to take sales calls for 1 month until they attended special training classes.
When I was a sales manager at a dealership, we didn't record sales calls at all.
As for "wired" offices, never saw one, never heard of one, and there were none in any of the dealerships I worked.
Most dealerships now have all sales desks out on the floor with no walls - just glass partitions - with a desk and computer station and phone. This is a new way of doing business - no closed offices, etc. Even the finance offices have no doors. The concept is to "open" the dealerships up so they are not foreboding or ominous to the customers when they come inside.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Thanks Driver. That's exactly what I do. But instead of taking me to the last message I read. It takes me to the last message that was available when I last logged in -- regardless of whether I read them or not.
I didn't change the plugs on my Sebring until a little over 80K miles where I changed the plugs and some of the filters.
Good gas has cleaning compounds in them and your fuel system should be OK and not in need of a cleaning.
I would wait for the plugs and not do the fuel system clean.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Hi GG,
Looks like I missed some important news. Congratulations on your engagement! I didn't quite understand the funding part, but congratulations there too.
I don't think there is animosity toward GM products, styling, or quality, imidazol. I think it is more of an animosity toward how big automakers handle problems with their products. Let me explain further.
Toyota's products have always been of top quality - and when they came out with the Lexus in 1989, it was further proof of their quality and workmanship. Toyota began to grow so quickly that they became insensitive to the complaints from the public about some of their products in the 2000's. It was the "attitude" of their management and administration that caused serious reservations about Toyota. They turned their noses up at those complaints, even in the face of some disastrous accidents and loss of life. It is not the product concerns so much as the ATTITUDE CONCERNS that have cost them billions and billions of dollars. Finally, they are starting to pay attention to problems and management is more sensitive to complaints and concerns.
As for GM, both old and new, it was not an attitude problem as it was for Toyota. It was a company "policy" to not divulge that there actually were problems with their vehicles, even after many deaths attributed to a faulty ignition. GM knew about the problem and its cause, but did not overtly deal with it as they should have. So, in retrospect, GM was being irresponsible by withholding that information, at least this is what I have found after several weeks reading as much as I could about both companies. Toyota had investigated the sudden acceleration problem and had found no problems - so they brushed aside the waves of complaints coming in and continued growing so big and so fast that they developed "elephantiasis" (a real word to describe a company's management that is slow to respond because of its size and/or policies).
Audi had problems with that sudden acceleration problem and did the same thing that Toyota did - they buried their heads in the sand since their engineers found no problems and look where that got them? It has taken Audi 30 years to finally recover from that misjudgment on their part.
Mercedes Benz suffered tremendously in the late 1990's and early 2000's because of Chrysler. They were paying so much attention to Chrysler that they forgot about their own brand. A friend of mine was a sales manager at a Mercedes Dealer in the Tampa area for several years during this time. He left because of the poor quality of the Mercedes and the number of lemon law buybacks that he had to deal with. The Mercedes name was now in jeopardy because of their inattention to the complaints about their product's quality. They were trying to bring Chrysler up to snuff and they found out quickly that they could not do two major operations at the same time - fix Chrysler and continue to build a truly great German luxury automobile. So management was changed, Chrysler was unloaded, and they learned their lesson. Mercedes struggled for a long time to come back from that disaster.
There are many other examples - but as usual, I have overstated what I wanted to share.
Every automobile manufacturer has faced similar situations, but GM didn't investigate the ignition problem and find nothing - they knew what it was! They just made a policy decision to withhold the information for as long as they could - but now when they got caught it could cost them like it cost Toyota and I am not sure if they can withstand that kind of drainage of capital.
GM produces one of the finest cars made - the Cadillac. It has come from the depths bowels of the earth to the top of the world in design, quality and performance. There are great things about GM, but we are not talking about their products here, we are talking about their "attitudes".
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Not sure if I agree with you on everything. Audi's unintended acceleration was IMHO a hatchet job, as if it were true, same problems would have shown up in other markets than US. Toyota's problems had more to do with pursuit of rapid sales marketshare at expense of quality. GM's issues were result of long and slow deterioration in conditions, from increased competition to militant workforce, combined with inept, self-serving management unable/unwilling to address core problems, always full of lame excuses and ready blame somebody else. Many big Midwestern industrial manufacturers had similar problems to those GM had, but their managements cleaned up their houses some time in late 80s or early 90s, but GM was the worst of them all, years after Caterpillar, Cummins, or Emerson fixed their problems. The hostility to GM may be overdone today, but it runs so deep because the process of goodwill loss was so prolonged that it will now take one customer at the time, literally - and no complaints of currency manipulation, or similar nonsense excuses in the process.
I'm not conviced Benz's problems were all Chrysler. I think they started before. It was mostly policy decision on cutting longevity, while imcreasing complexity (now everybody seems to be suffering it), as they noticed their new car buyer kept the car for only few years. As warranties and "free stuff while new" grew, the product became a major nightmare after that period to point of detriment to new ones. The reason is simple - if one plans breakdows after say 4 or 5 years, probability of earlier ones also increased. I'm not convinced MB solved that yet. They may sware they did, but only time will tell.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
We'll disagree on toyota. After spending a couple of years trying to Firestone the sludge problem and blaming everything but faulty engine design, they finally condescended to a recall.
On the SUA, I still believe thre was more to it than floor mats and sticky accelerator sensors. A few have looked into electronics more than originally done. The NASA scam was a narrow check on radio frequency interaction with the car's electronics. The initial pictures when journalists went to headquarters to ask about the problems and were met by representatives of toyota outside with gauze masks over their nose and mouth as if these foreigners from America might be carrying the plague really turned me off. This was toyota's second major problem hitting the front page, and they are acting zenophobic.
In my latest shopping spree I did drive a 4-cyl Accord, but couldn't even bring myself to test drive a Camry. toyota has had deaths. Now GM has deaths that likely shouldn't have happened. Why such a disparate treatment? I think it goes to the media again with its treatment of the bailouts. And for some older folk it goes back to the 70s and the military/industrial complex animosity when GM was the 9th largest economy IIRC.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
"Not sure if I agree with you on everything."
I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with everything I posted, Dino. You bring up additional points that I thought about, but felt they were of less importance than attitudes, subterfuge and organizations becoming so huge that there is a breakdown in the communications and controls internally.
Yes, unions, competition, and egotism etc., contributed - but one has to look at their corporate ethos as well - the big picture.
I enjoyed reading your post, Dino.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
I'm a Ford guy, and people still bring up the 'Pinto thing'.
GM made decisions over a long term to ignore/cover up the ignition issue.
That's pretty bad. My opinion is that the list of vehicles affected is going to get quite a bit bigger. They are just expanding the group a bit at a time.
I don't believe the '13' number or the '300' number, but it's probably somewhere between them.
Mary Berra is currently facing the congressional music, but hopefully there is enough integrity to seek justice from the real perpetrators. (Yeah right, it is April Fools Day).:(
I had a 79 Mustang Pace Car that I won and when I got underneath there was the diaper over the front of the gas tank so the differential wouldn't puncture it in the event of a rear end collision. Really it was more of a protection against the secondary impact when the damaged tank is leaking fuel and the second impact causes sparks which ignites the fuel. Sad.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Another 1 million cars recalled. Oh wait. It's not GM. It's Nissan for air bag software problems. Just like in GM's if the air bags don't inflate, it's going to take the air out of your day.
Or the 900,000 for fire potential. That's not GM, it's Honda Odysseys. And the 10,000 for pinched tires on Civics. And then there's the Civic engine switch recall.
But the big focus is on GM. I'd think the MSM would cut them a break because of the UAW's involvement with GM and UAW's leanings.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Open can still be wired. Like I said, I don't think it is being done, but I wouldn't put it past a dealer to do it. I know I have been left in the office with my wife for a few minutes, and I am very careful about what I say. If I do want to discuss something with my wife we go fo a walk or a coffee. I know when we talked about getting a 328 or a 335 the discussion we had sounded similar to the comments the salesman made when he returned - probably a coincidence, but better to be safe than sorry, just in case.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I thought that could be what you meant. It can't know where you left off, but I have thought that would be a nice feature to have...a way to mark what the last message was that you actually read. I guess you could write down the date and time of the last message - and the page number too. You have to decide if it is worth it, but you could miss out on a lot of valuable information if you don't have a system.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
>
Good comments Dino and Mike. I think the Audi problem was just the gas and brake pedal were too close. There is a lot of truth in what you wrote.
It seems that GMs problems are particularly bad because there is direct proof they knew about the problem as early as 2001. They knew the part was faulty and not made to the proper standards and yet they still used them...the part was worth 57 cents. They made a decision they could fight the allegations and scare people into not going after them. At least 13 people...usually young people who wanted a sharp looking inexpensive new car. If you follow the paper trail this was not just a mistake, this was a calculated cover-up - and they were caught.
Mary Barra avoided answering the questions with real answers. It shouldn't have happened, it won't happen gain, I don't know why it happened etc. These days, when profits are the number 1 priority, companies will do anything to save dollars....unfortunately this one cost at least 13 lives....it should never have happened.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
April is always a nice month here in Florida as the snowbirds follow the geese north for the warmer months. The parking lot is beginning to thin out and the traffic is ebbing, ever so slowly.
The roof replacement on our building is completed and the main entrance to the community is supposed to open in 2 weeks after bring closed for construction for 11 months. The sprinklers have been replaced so I won't have those blotches all over the car every morning.
Yes, April is a nice month here in Florida as things are finally looking up. Life has its ups and downs - but April is definitely an UP month!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Thanks , Verdugo!
It looks like Costco finally went for Top Tier status for their fuels...
http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html
"It looks like Costco finally went for Top Tier status for their fuels..."
Good info, GG. I think I'll try a few tankfulls of Costco Premium. Their pricing is really the same as Chevron and BP down here at the moment. Premium is running $3.99 a gallon at Chevron and Costco is. $3.92.9.
According to my newspaper, premium is up because of a shortage of ethanol forcing Florida to bid on gasoline coming out of the mid-Atlantic region. The oil spill near Houston has also created a problem for Florida because we usually receive our supplies from the gulf area refineries.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
To all - thanks for your condolences. The wake is today and we have to park about a mile away and take a shuttle bus to the funeral home as they expect hundreds of guests. Our church is hosting the collation after the service tomorrow as the crowd is expected to be very big.
My 17 YO son is trying his best to provide support for his girlfriend. He's doing a great job and I hope he knows that. The positive thing is that the family is trying to keep things as normal as possible as per the Mom's wishes. His girlfriend was supposed to have hosted an exchange student from Italy last and this week. She is staying with another family as that made sense but the girlfriend is still involved with the visiting group. She performed in a play on Sunday, went to a Celtics game on Monday and went to NY with the Italian group on Tuesday. The other two kids have been going to school and have Aunts and friends shuttling them to dance and lacrosse.
This will be the third death/wake/funeral our family has dealt with in the past 10 days.
I was making sales calls in CT yesterday. Musings from the trip:
Why is there a set of stop lights on Rt 9 in Middletown, CT? This is a 4 lane divided highway at 65 mph and all of a sudden - lights!!
Rt 95 from New Haven to Niantic is a very pretty ride.
I entered a rotary in Stratford and discovered that cars in the rotary have to yield. Is that CT thing or just that one? In MA, the rule is cars in the rotary have the right of way.
You've been taking the media reports at face value, always a mistake. You need to remember the context, first of all. The vehicle was designed at the time of GM's great dysfunction, when they were obsessed with taking cost out of vehicles ruthlessly because they were losing money hand over fist. That alone led to many bad decisions. Delphi, the supplier, was heading into bankruptcy years ahead of GM's own, so who knows what role they played. GM meanwhile was shedding white-collar engineering and management jobs like a dog shedding hair. It was a very bad time in their history.
No question that mistakes were made. As to the decisions made once the problem became known, who knows? Most of those people are likely no longer there. Hell, the company that made those decisions is technically no longer there. The mention of a cover-up sounds juicy, but was more likely one of assessing what was known about the incidents - which were coming to light mostly right as GM was spiraling down into bankruptcy, remember - versus what was required to fix it. Remember, the change to the part had already happened by that point. If there is a paper trail that confirms a "cover-up", then fine. But for now it sounds like a media/congressional sound bite more than fact.
We all know that once you get to the congressional hearing stage, any semblance of reality goes out the window. At that stage it is all about staging a media circus, with politicians trying to look good in front of the cameras while trying to find a scapegoat for whatever the issue is. And the media are only too happy to act as an accomplice for the political hacks. You have to be smart enough not to take everything they say at face value.
I notice that the early reports about many of these deceased drivers being drunk/stoned out of their gourds when they wrapped their Cobalts, around telephone poles have not been reported recently. Suddenly they are all just innocent victims. I think that tells you a lot. Mary Barra is not the culprit here. In a company the size of GM it is unlikely there is any single culprit, since all decisions were made and approved by committee in those days inside GM's byzantine structure. But she is now the company's CEO and quite rightly has to speak on its behalf. Just don't impute things to her that she had nothing to do with.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
x1: totally agree.
It's coming up on election time for some of these folks in DC. They have to show why they have been "working" for their constituents back home. One way is to get seen in a clip being nasty toward the awful CEO.
Second factor is that this is a serious matter with the deaths. However, at a time when toyota is still having court cases resisting payouts over their yet-to-be-totally-explained SUA, GM has acquired the services of the person who set up the financial settlements for 911, Boston Marathon, and BP spill. While the settlements won't bring back people dead or injured, they are most of what the families are after.
Third is that Mary Barra has said that it's a big incident over a long period of time within the company, 10 years, and it takes time for the independent investigator to unravel. The politicians are acting like they think it's CSI and should be unraveled with 30 minutes. Barra also said already that one part of the company didn't communicate information to another part where the flags might have gone up that there was more risk involved than just replacing bad contacts in an electrical part since it also powered the airbags.
Fourth is that the news media loves blood as long as it's not from one of their beloved folks. AND it's a time when they really want to take attention away from the administration and the failures here and abroad. So talking about Malaysia 370 and GM are great distractions until the Final Four this weekend. I'm still amazed how some of these elected folks in DC have no interest in other deaths in Libia or in the IRS misusing its powers, but they go nasty over a company that has admitted moral guilt to as great an extent possible without damaging any legal rights they have.
Sixth, look for other car companies to do Friday dumps of more recalls, which the media folks will mention hardly since all the attention is on GM.
A test that works is to switch the parties involved and predict how the media will cover a tragedy like this. Were this Ford which hadn't been involved in a bankruptcy, how would this be covered by CBS, NBC, ABC? --Honda? --VW? --Hyundai/Kia?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Ouch - I remember when there were stop lights on US 101 (also a 4 lane divided highway) in Santa Barbara. The powers that be wanted everyone to stop and spend some money there. It wasn't until the late 80's or so that they finally got rid of them.
It's the same in Colorado - cars in the traffic circle have the right of way. Not that everyone understands that, however.
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and let us know! Post a pic of your new purchase or lease!
MODERATOR
2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
Mike....some of the reasoning for gas price fluctuation borders on fantasy....to the point I don't believe any of the reporting I see. The simple facts remain, gas prices should be plummeting. The world is in a pretty steep decline for oil demand. The U.S. and Canada in particular are providing more and more of our own supply of gas.
Yet, the industry as a whole is still trying to prop up prices with insulting excuses for gas prices. I have stuck with Costco gas, almost exclusively (unless I'm traveling out of town) for a decade with zero problems. And, at worst, they're a penny or two a gallon less than everyone else. Usually, they're a nickel or a dime per gallon less. Lots of times, they're 30¢-40¢/gal less than everyone else. They don't play the "I'm raising prices because everyone else in the area is doing it" game.
They stand behind the product they sell. I have no doubt in my mind that if something ever did go haywire with my car that was fuel related, Costco would take care of it.
I had seen the "Top Tier" rating on their pump when I filled up last night. I came home to look up their rating at the Top Tier site....lo and behold, there they are.
Thanks so much to all of my poster friends who gave me advice on the tune-up and the fuel flush. The Chrysler manual says to change the plugs on the 2.7L engine at 30K. The two other engine types aren't to be done until 100K. Mine is the 2.7L engine. Still, 30K seems like low mileage for a change of plugs. I've never done this before on my other cars and think that I won't now. I figured that the fuel flush was a rip-off. We've discussed this one before. I am glad to know about the Techron by Chevron and will definitely buy a bottle of that. Thanks again for the good advice.
Explorer: Yes, I would have been the perfect person to pull the wires on your plugs. I've had considerable experience in that field.
Stickguy: You suggested that, instead of a tune-up, I just get a new car. I think that is going to happen this summer. We received intent letters yesterday from a Texas company who wants one of the plots for sale on our Alabama farm. Though it's not a contract yet, we are in negotiations over the price per acre. If my evil and dishonest BIL doesn't screw it up, we may do well on this deal. We would have done better on the last deal if I hadn't had to hire a real estate attorney to threaten my BIL with some jail time. At least now, he knows that my wife and I are watching him like a hawk. It's pretty sad when family turns out to be your worst enemy.
Richard
@sterlingdog - I missed the fact that the engine was the 2.7. That wasn't the greatest engine Chrysler ever sold, and they have a checkered history. If the manual calls for a plug change that early (which surprises me) I might do it. The fuel system thing I would handle with the Techron.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Robr2, we call them "round-a-bouts" here in North Carolina. They are becoming quite the thing to do. Our rule is that once in the circle, you hold the right of way. The problem that I've noticed in some of our smaller towns is that the circles are too small in diameter. That makes for tight driving. We're building a new one in our downtown area. We'll see if they do it right.
Richard
Imid and MIke....I keep thinking about Bob Lutz's book regarding GM. I want them to succeed. Bad news for GM doesn't help anyone. Yet, they stubbornly continue to believe nothing is their fault. Even now, when they're clearly wrong about the Cruz issues, they are looking for excuses.
First, they refused to acknowledge they had a problem. Then, when all the customers reported the problem to them, they tried to say it was "driver error" (as Imid points out, this was Toyota's answer, too).
When your customers are reporting that your cars stop dead in their tracks, on the interstate, on the roadways, etc, you have a problem. I've read more than one story stating that GM has tried to intimidate their customers with a blizzard of litigation if they tried to go up against them.
Now, they're saying "not our problem...we sold those cars when the company wasn't on good footing". Really? That makes it OK, then?
I was for the auto bailouts. But, when I hear of this stuff, I wonder if it wasn't time for a clean sweep. The "attitude" and lack of culpability is staggering. There are just too many execs left there that just don't get it. Maybe Ford had it right all along. They fixed themselves.