Options

Stories from the Sales Frontlines

1194719481950195219532003

Comments

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,292

    @graphicguy said:
    Maybe Ford had it right all along. They fixed themselves.

    Or haven't been caught yet. I keep hearing lots of grumblings about the Ecoboost and MFT. Just wait until some drunk kills himself fumbling with trying to change the defroster settings with that disaster.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,593

    @ab348 said:The vehicle was designed at the time of GM's great dysfunction, when they were obsessed with taking cost out of vehicles ruthlessly because they were losing money hand over fist.

    Ignorance is no excuse for ignoring a safety issue that could kill people....even if the company was heading into bankrupcy. If a company is making egg cups and the egg cups are faulty that isn't too bad. But, a car company, where people are being killed, because the company is trying to stall over fixing it, is just wrong. Some of the people who had sons and daughters killed were told they couldn't afford to fight GM over this issue - to just drop it.

    No company wants to pay for a recall...that is profit lost. Somewhere there are executives who made a conscious decision to try to hide the serious flaw....and somewhere there were executives over them who told them to ignore the warnings.......it will be interesting to see if we find out who they are.

    There has to be stronger penalties for companies who are not responsible about protecting lives.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,388

    WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS, BLAME ANYONE!

    I posted how I felt about GM and the current issue about the faulty ignition switch. After reading several more posts, I began to reread everything posted about GM, Toyota, etc., and the recalls that some posters say are awaiting in line in the halls of the automotive industry that have yet to be announced.

    When I made mistakes when I was a teacher, a principal, a car salesman or manager of a dealership, I owned up to that mistake. Even in my very first job out of college when I was an unemployment insurance claims examiner in the Bronx, when I made a mistake, I owned up to it.

    Owning up to a mistake(s) not only means admitting the mistake to others and those affected by that mistake, but doing something about correcting the damage caused by that mistake, if any. It also means correcting ones behavior so that, in the future, that same mistake will not be repeated.

    Now, I ask, is or "has" the automobile industry OWNED UP to mistakes and has the industry, as a whole, not only corrected those mistakes, but have they done something to ease the pain or the affect those mistakes have had on its customers? Well, I guess in the strictest sense, the industry has owned up, but in many cases, only after being "forced" to own up by the Government Watchdogs and their Agencies.

    Corporate honesty and ethics are extremely important in a capitalistic society. How do I know? If you look at most, if not all, Mission Statements and Objectives of US corporations, you will always find something in there about honesty, integrity, ethics. concern for the public safety, concern for the consumer, etc. The problem is that the internal operations of a corporation have stop-gap measures to protect the Corporate Image as well as profits.

    GM is not the only automobile manufacturer that has had major problems, as I alluded to in my posts. All of them have had problems that are similar to GM - even Ford with the Firestone issues that were shielded for some time from the public and the government. GM just happens to be in the news this year, or this month, or this week. Toyota was there, Chrysler was there, Audi was there, etc.

    There is no conspiracy here to "hate" GM or blame GM for anything more than the other manufacturers have been blamed for. Yes, Congress gets tough only when there is a political reason to get tough.

    I don't hate GM - no one on this forum "hates" GM. I don't hate Toyota - no one here hates Toyota. But bringing to light the root causes for their faults has nothing to do with hate or prejudice.

    2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676

    @graphicguy said:
    Imid and MIke....I keep thinking about Bob Lutz's book regarding GM. I want them to succeed. Bad news for GM doesn't help anyone. Yet, they stubbornly continue to believe nothing is their fault. Even now, when they're clearly wrong about the Cruz issues, they are looking for excuses.

    Mary Barra said over and over that they are investigating as to where the information stopped within the company. The Representatives grandstanding for elections were trying to force her to say they were totally responsible for every accident, which would be used against them in any and all court cases. I watched part of the hearings live. If the Rep Shakowsky could have acted more like a -itch she would have had a broom. Is she so dumb that she thinks GM should just legally say, "It's all on us." I realize the lady is parading for election sound bites, but enough is enough. Barra said they were responsible morally and that something did not communicate within the company.

    First, they refused to acknowledge they had a problem. Then, when all the customers reported the problem to them, they tried to say it was "driver error" (as Imid points out, this was Toyota's answer, too).

    That's SOP at most, if not all of the companies. It's especially true with the service managers/tech writers at the stores. There's an ego problem with many of them rather than being a learner from what's being reported or said by the customers. The customer is treated like cow pies (remember Abaco's story). E.g., I just asked about my Cobalt which was added, according to the news media over the weekend. The writer looked it up and said, "Nope." However, it did have the key unit serviced 4 years ago. The weekend reports said GM is concerned some replacement modules may have been the deficient part numbers used for replacements.

    Mary Barra said not changing the part number for a running improvement in a part was a mistake.

    I've read more than one story stating that GM has tried to intimidate their customers with a blizzard of litigation if they tried to go up against them.

    That too is typical of courts and attorneys. If I sued Cincinnati Bell over my DSL service, I would be met with attorney after attorney and allegation after allegation.

    Now, they're saying "not our problem...we sold those cars when the company wasn't on good footing". Really? That makes it OK, then?

    But Mary Barra is not saying they are not responsible. It's just that Rep Shakowski wanted to make a grandstand for the elections

    I was for the auto bailouts. The "attitude" and lack of culpability is staggering. There are just too many execs left there that just don't get it. Maybe Ford had it right all along. They fixed themselves. But, when I hear of this stuff, I wonder if it wasn't time for a clean sweep.

    Some companies stall and ignore problems. That to my recollection involves certain the foreign companies. They never have certain problems because they are too reliable to have any problems. And the customers tend to go along with that especially if the company has special, secret recall fix for the problem that customer had.

    I hear Mary Barra as a person I would not want to be on the opposite side of the issue from if I were working at GM, past or present. She could not say that GM is legally at fault despite the pressuring from the dumb reps yesterday nor could she say she would release all of the information in the result of the current investigation, but I have no question she will release all that is germane to the public's
    interest. There may be information that is to be handled within the private business which GM is.

    E.g., has Honda released all the information from their internal investigations into their many transmission failures through the last couple of decades?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244

    abacomike

    Your above post was well written.. I agree with you.

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    edited April 2014

    @ab348 said:
    I keep hearing lots of grumblings about the Ecoboost and MFT. Just wait until some drunk
    kills himself fumbling with trying to change the defroster settings with that disaster.

    You mean if said drunk can't hit the two dedicated buttons on the dash that turn on the front defogger and rear defroster that are distinct from the buttons on MFT?

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351

    @abacomike said:
    WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS, BLAME ANYONE!

    Very well written post mike. Sums up my feelings as well. Good job.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,292

    @robr2 said:
    You mean if said drunk can't hit the two dedicated buttons on the dash that turn on the front defogger and rear defroster that are distinct from the buttons on MFT?

    Yes. The Congress would say that the design should be drunk-proof when they are busy witch-hunting Alan Mullally and Bill Ford.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,292

    @driver100 said:
    Ignorance is no excuse for ignoring a safety issue that could kill people....even if the company was heading into bankrupcy. If a company is making egg cups and the egg cups are faulty that isn't too bad. But, a car company, where people are being killed, because the company is trying to stall over fixing it, is just wrong. Some of the people who had sons and daughters killed were told they couldn't afford to fight GM over this issue - to just drop it.

    No company wants to pay for a recall...that is profit lost. Somewhere there are executives who made a conscious decision to try to hide the serious flaw....and somewhere there were executives over them who told them to ignore the warnings.......it will be interesting to see if we find out who they are.

    You need to understand the climate within GM at the time. Every quarter there was more and more bad news. They were in a constant battle with the UAW trying to get a handle on their legacy commitments to the union. Sales results kept getting worse and worse, and profits were a thing of the past. There was a revolving door for both management and professionals. Nothing was business as usual. People were worried if they would have a job next week. This likely wasn't a high-priority item in that environment when saving the company or their own butt is all people were thinking about. In that climate it is easy to see how this could get passed off, passed over, and generally ignored, especially since the redesigned part was put into service somewhere in the middle of all this.

    None of this excuses GM. They should have dealt with it differently. But you cannot equate their actions then with their actions now. It is a very different place.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • sterlingdogsterlingdog Member Posts: 6,984

    @imidazol97 said:

    The current GM saga is a poorly designed drama which, at best, could be reduced to a one act play. It is difficult to determine which actor(s) is the protagonist----Mary Barra or the Congressional Hearing Committee. Obviously, the antagonist appears to be Congress for good reason. Suddenly, with the fate of the elections looming over their heads, they want to stand up for America and be counted among the better heroes and heroines in our nation. They shout their accusations, make talking points with their body language in the form of beating their fists on the table and making ugly facial expressions, and exclaim that the American people should have been told thus and so. It proves to be the same sad one act play for every staged event----IRS hearings, Benghazi hearings, ACA hearings, etc. Who knew what when and where? None of the players admit guilt; at best they just agree to behave better in the future.

    Time, money, and energy could be saved by simply saying this: (1) Admit blame now or all top executives both past and present for GM will serve a 5 year prison term beginning at the end of this month. (2) Take the damn 50 cent part and fix all of the GM cars immediately. (3) Pay to the families of the 13 victims $10 million each plus a new GM car of their choice. (4) Run TV, radio, and print ads for one year in which you explicitly apologize to the American people for your greed and dishonesty. Case closed.

    As for Mary Barra, she is a 34 year veteran with GM, having started in a GM plant at the age of 18. Now she is at the top. Whether she knew of the situation or not we may never know. Even if she did, her hands may have been tied by those who rule. Personally, I like her responses. She is pretty close to saying that GM is guilty as hell for what happened. She promises investigation and correction of errors. I say give her a chance.

    There is one lesson that government and corporations have failed to learn: What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. If we exerted a strong spider bite each time that it happened, some of this crap would stop.

    Richard

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,292

    @graphicguy said:

    First, they refused to acknowledge they had a problem. Then, when all the customers reported the problem to them, they tried to say it was "driver error" (as Imid points out, this was Toyota's answer, too).

    Do we know that it wasn't? I have not heard of any reports of the switch spontaneously turning itself off. Maybe there are and I just haven't seen them. But everything I saw indicates the switch/key fob had to be nudged to turn off.

    This sounds not all that different from Ford's automatic transmission issues years ago when the shifter would go into reverse because the parking pawl was not designed correctly. Engineers are people and hence, not perfect.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 5,182

    RobR: Condolences from another Bostonian. Sounds like everyone involved is being strong, loving and supportive. If one looks for a silver lining, there it is.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited April 2014

    Here is something to think about.

    If you’re keeping score (and you should be) here’s a rundown of how some of the government’s largest auto industry investments turned out:

    GM: repaid the $49.5 billion it got from the U.S. Treasury, including all of its outstanding loans. But Treasury still owns 500 million shares, or 32%, of GM stock. To recoup its full investment, GM stock needs to hit $52.80 per share. It’s currently trading around $34.74.. GM also received a $106 million matching grant to build a battery factory in Brownstown, MI, where it is assembling battery packs for the Chevrolet Volt plug-in car using cells imported from Korea.

    The Wall Street Journal reported that taxpayers are expected to lose this year at least $10 billion on the bailout of GM, due to the company’s failure so far to repay the money and the fact that Treasury has closed its books with the outstanding debt listing on GM 's stock .

    Chrysler: repaid $9.2 billion, fulfilling its debt obligations to the U.S. and Canadian governments, and is now owned by Italian automaker Fiat (58.5%) and a health care trust for UAW retirees (41.5%). Overall, taxpayers lost $1.3 billion on the Chrysler bailout. In full recovery mode, Chrysler is currently the fastest-growing carmaker in the world. As of last year.

    Ford: used its $5.9 billion loan to convert two truck plants to small-car production and to develop more fuel-efficient vehicles like the Ford Focus EV and C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid, which went on sale last year... Loan repayments started in September 2012.. Ford says it will spend $14 billion over the next seven years on advanced-technology vehicles.

    Nissan: received a $1.4 billion loan to build a battery plant and modify an existing car factory in Tennessee to produce the electric Nissan Leaf (currently imported from Japan). Production of battery packs began September 2012; Leaf production started in December. Though it has sold only 14,000 Leafs in the U.S. since December 2010, the company hasn’t backed off its U.S. sales target of 150,000 Leafs per year... LOL.... Nissan claims it will start repaying its loan after U.S. production begins.

    Tesla: used its $465 million loan to build a battery plant and retool part of a former Toyota-GM factory to build the Model S, its second electric car. In 2012, only 100 cars have been built, well shy of its 2012 goal of 5,000. 2013 proved to be a very good year for Telsa with its production . Loan repayments started in December 2012. Tesla, which went public in July 2010, hopes to break even by 2014.

    Fisker: received only $193 million of its $529 million DOE loan because of missed milestones. Its first plug-in hybrid, the $100,000 Karma built in Finland, suffered quality problems. Its next model, the Nina, and a new factory in Delaware, are on hold while the company sorts out its problems and seeks alternative funding sources.

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • ray80ray80 Member Posts: 1,655

    @robr2 said:
    I was making sales calls in CT yesterday. Musings from the trip:

    Why is there a set of stop lights on Rt 9 in Middletown, CT? This is a 4 lane divided highway at 65 mph and all of a sudden - lights!!

    ~~At least they attempt to get everyone down to 40MPH or so before the lights, very congested spot for a mile or so.

    Rt 95 from New Haven to Niantic is a very pretty ride.

    ~~~ Hate that road, to skinny and they can't fix it. Also the drivers could be better aorund there.

    I entered a rotary in Stratford and discovered that cars in the rotary have to yield. Is that CT thing or just that one? In MA, the rule is cars in the rotary have the right of way.

    ~ I think it may depend on the roundabout (for those that don't call them rotarys), I think New York and/or New Hampshire may have some that seem a little strange also.

  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805

    @brian125 said:
    Here is something to think about.

    If you’re keeping score (and you should be) here’s a rundown of how some of the
    government’s largest auto industry investments turned out:

    GM: repaid the $49.5 billion it got from the U.S. Treasury, including all of its outstanding
    loans. But Treasury still owns 500 million shares, or 32%, of GM stock. To recoup its full
    investment, GM stock needs to hit $52.80 per share. It’s currently trading around $34.74..
    GM also received a $106 million matching grant to build a battery factory in Brownstown, MI,
    where it is assembling battery packs for the Chevrolet Volt plug-in car using cells imported
    from Korea.

    Ummm - The Treasury sold off the rest of the GM shares it owned back in December.

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676

    @sterlingdog said:

    Personally, I like her responses. She is pretty close to saying that GM is guilty as hell for what happened. She promises investigation and correction of errors. I say give her a chance.

    She passes the voice stress test for me for sincerity and honesty: a rare occurance in the things we get out of DC.

    She also passes the body language test about what she is saying. I understand the low IQ of the legislators keeps them from understanding if she just says GM is all at fault she would be fired for misfeasance or is it malfeasance for her duty to protect GM somewhat in this miserable set of circumstances.

    I also understand the legislators don't understand that she can't say she's going to make public each and every part of the results of the internal investiagation. What if they say a certain person was at fault for not handling correctly. That's a personnel matter with most companies and will be handled and then the announcement made that certain person has resigned to look for greener pastures or to spend more time with his family, etc.. AND I don't think we've seen any results of toyota's internal investigations about their problems; same w/ Honda.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,593

    @ab348 said:None of this excuses GM. They should have dealt with it differently. But you cannot equate their actions then with their actions now. It is a very different place.

    ab, you wrote a very good post (others have too btw...imid, Mike, rob etc), about this issue. I still find it is troubling that companies will risk peoples lives, for the sake of dollars. And, then they say, it won't happen again, we will see it doesn't happen again, we will investigate how it happened. It happened with Exxon (Valdez), happened with Ford (Pintos and Firestone Tires), happens when MCHM a chemical company spilled toxic chemicals into the water supply in West Virginia, a railway accident in
    Lac-Mégantic Quebec kills 15, and on it goes.

    If they find the people at GM who allowed this to happen....will there be penalties? Was it just a "freak accident" or was there a culture of secrecy and cover-up? GM may have been going through a troubling time....it is too easy to say, that was then, we won't let it happen again....so, we aren't responsible.

    Just me, but I think I would find it difficult to buy a GM or Toyota product considering what has happened.....even if it is a different company. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if a family member was injured or killed, because I bought a new one and there was a similar problem. It would take awhile, because I would want to see a track record of serious changes. The good news is, people forget very quickly.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602

    @driver100 said:

    If I recall correctly, the original 60's Mustangs used the top of the gas tank as the floor of the trunk. People burned to death and the fix was a piece of steel reinforcement that cost less than a dollar.

  • sterlingdogsterlingdog Member Posts: 6,984

    @driver100 said:

    In all fairness, we have to realize that not every GM model is on the list. Not to purchase a GM product is like blaming the entire barrel for one or two rotten apples. While I can appreciate your thinking, if we go with your philosophy, we would never again buy a domestic vehicle, nor a Toyota, BMW, or MB. They have all had their day in the dark shadows at one time or another. There isn't a vehicle made that is perfect because those who make them aren't perfect. When tragic things like this happen, we have to hope that lessons are learned and that things improve. It's the best that the human race can do.

    Richard

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386

    Hey, gang. Si pages at least of posts to catch up. We'll see.

    Mike - I know you were pulling my leg. My reply didn't show that. Pull as desired. I will say this sapphire earring is the biggest thing I've got. Must be a carat. That's almost an earlobe! But it is the most beautiful shade of blue. It would do BMW proud and they produce the nicest blues in the business.

    BTW - with Chevron as an option competitively priced I wouldn't buy anything else. It comes with Techron, the best detergent right in it. So does Texaco because Texaco is just Chevron under a different name. This comes from a big Costco fan.

    I don't know that GM is being bashed out of proportion. They got hit with a lot of things at once which doesn't help. I agree on the new CEO. Upfront and addressing the issue. Admitting they blew it. That's refreshing. And Richard is right - don't blame all GM vehicles. There are loads out there doing just fine.

    Monday I was up at Sloan. All the news was good. The same issues remain as have been for - my immune system isn't up to normal. I mean it works but neither the t nor b cells are where they should be and what they call the immune function is still low. I will now have the third summer in a row where I can't swim, can't even walk in bare feet on the edge of the ocean, can't do yard work. Doc kind of put in perspective saying something like "We saved your life. You have to do your part and don't grumble." She's got a point. She also observed when I mentioned mental/emotional state to not not discount Seasonal Disaffective Disorder which has been running rampant this year due to the drag out winter. She also made clear that as long as that immune system isn't right that I am disabled and should not even think of being considered

    I'll admit I felt great in Tallahassee. Were I living alone I'd already live down there. The pluses - warmth, favorable angle of the sun, longer days, hills, more trees in the city than in a lot of forests (mostly live oaks with Spanish moss) - outweigh the minuses (right now I have just over one hour to Philadelphia and two to New York with lots happening in between. There I have three hours to Jacksonville which, while is quite nice now which it didn't used to be, still isn't Philadelphia and a far cry from New York.

    After Sloan I met up at Hope Lodge with my old guitar playing buddy Alessandro who used to play with me almost every week for four months when i was there. Hadn't seen him in the better part of two years. The guitar I had donated to Hope Lodge was unplayable - needs work which he and I will make sure happens. They tell us that it was insanely popular - probably neck warp and rehumidifying. Not complicated but not something I can do. While there this fella is nearby liking what we were up to (fortunately Alessandro can also play piano so we worked together) wants more but we were supposed to be out of the room by then. I talk to him a little. He was bald and emaciated and it came up that he'd gone through what I did on January 31. I tell him, holding out my arms, "Here's you in two years." You could see his spirits lift. What a great feeling.

    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592

    @abacomike said:
    Good info, GG. I think I'll try a few tankfulls of Costco Premium. Their pricing is really the same as Chevron and BP down here at the moment. Premium is running $3.99 a gallon at Chevron and Costco is. $3.92.9.

    Premium around here is north of $4/gallon. Even Costco is $4.049/Gallon for premium and some places its close to $4.50. Some places in the city its approaching $5/gallon. RUG is running about 40 cents less.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,123
    edited April 2014

    @snakeweasel said:
    Premium around here is north of $4/gallon. Even Costco is $4.049/Gallon for premium and some places its close to $4.50. Some places in the city its approaching $5/gallon. RUG is running about 40 cents less.

    Snake....I was around your way a couple of weeks ago. Permium was running $4.50 in the city. I try to fill up in Merrilville where there is a Costco....once on the way into Chicago and once on the way back.

    I wasn't able to do that this trip as we didn't stop in Merrilville.
    I know you're a big Mercedes fan Mike. And the following isn't a reflection of the quality of the cars they build today. But, (you knew that was coming) at the time when the "merger of equals" happened, Chrysler had pallets of cash and probably the top $WD technology on the planet with the Jeep brand in its portfolio. Benz wanted a piece of the SUV 4WD market. Add in the hoards of cash, there wasn't anything positive Mercedes brought to the table with Chrysler.

    Mercedes shared a little suspension technology with Chrysler. But, even there it was older technology (underpinning the 300 from older E series models). It was far from a merger of equals. Then, after picking Chrysler's pockets, they sold them off to Cerebus, who had NO automotive or even engineering/manufacturing experience, and wanted to sell off the remaining pieces, but couldn't when the economic meltdown happened.

    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited April 2014

    robr2 said.

    Ummm - The Treasury sold off the rest of the GM shares it owned back in December.

    Sorry i did not fully explain..... In Dec, 2013 Treasury sold back the remaining shares at a loss. This in return along with interest and fee's will result in the 10 billion plus loss to the tax payer.

    This was one of the many articles i found explaining why the tax payers are at a loss of over 10 billion .

    By Angelo Young

    on November 13 2013 2:24 PM

    NY Times

    As the U.S. sells its remaining shares of GM at under the value of the stock needed to fully recover GM bailout funds, the losses rise. IBTimes/U.S. Treasury Department
    The taxpayer’s cost of rescuing General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM) is about to top $10 billion, but GM’s TARP era isn’t over yet.

    The U.S. Treasury Department’s latest estimate on the cost to the taxpayer for rescuing GM in 2009 is out and has officially hit almost $10 billion, and counting. The estimate was released Tuesday after markets closed. According to Deutsche Bank Markets Research, the government sold about 34 million GM shares in October, well above the monthly average since January of 12 million shares. This leaves about 67 million shares remaining.

    This is the sum taxpayers have so far forked over to the private sector for rescuing the world’s second largest automaker in the wake of the subprime mortgage meltdown, the global recession and the ensuing auto industry crisis. More precisely, GM’s too-big-to-fail quality has cost taxpayers $9.98 billion as of this week, but that figure will grow.

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,217

    @sterlingdog said:
    Thanks so much to all of my poster friends who gave me advice on the tune-up and the fuel flush. The Chrysler manual says to change the plugs on the 2.7L engine at 30K. The two other engine types aren't to be done until 100K. Mine is the 2.7L engine. Still, 30K seems like low mileage for a change of plugs.

    As a follow up to my previous post, my mechanic changed the plugs and gas filter on the Lincoln with 73k miles. Made a great difference. More power and 3mpg better milage.

    30k on plugs seems excessive. The Mitsu engine in my Cirrus which was the predecessor of the Sebring called for plug change @ 60k

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676
    edited April 2014

    @sterlingdog said:
    I need advice from any and all posters who are willing and who have time. This morning, I had the oil changed and the tires rotated on the Chrysler convertible.

    Which engine size does your car have under the hood? Is it a 2.4 Liter? 2.7 Liter?

    The 2.4 L does get plugs at 30,000 mi unless it's the PZEV version which along with the other sizes goes to 102,000 miles before plugs are necessitated.

    The 2.4 L is a 4-cylinder; the 2.7 L is a 6-cylinder engine.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,725
    edited April 2014

    Richard,
    Don't seem to be able to post a link. but I found a link to a dealer maintenance schedule for 2005-2010 Sebrings. No service level includes changing the spark plugs.
    Imid seems to have covered this just prior to my post.

    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,725

    @Ab348.
    The movement of other things attached to the ignition key wore out the mechanism (key chain with other keys on it). The 'nudge' was this movement after a period of time.
    This is what happened with my mother's car, which is not on the list.
    I am guessing it will be added and I hope she can get reimbursed for the expense.
    These were the same keys she had for the Chrysler she drove for 9 years, before her Chevy.
    Now she drives a Ford with push button start, so not an issue any more.

    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676

    @explorerx4 said:
    Don't seem to be able to post a link. but I found a link to a dealer maintenance schedule for 2005-2010 Sebrings. No service level includes changing the spark plugs.
    Imid seems to have covered this just prior to my post.

    Here's the text from the 2008 Owner Manual on intervals--only one listed unike my GM books which list a different interval for hard service like dusty.

    _"Replace the spark plugs on 2.4L engines (except PZEV* version of the 2.4 engine). 30,000
    Inspect and adjust the power steering pump belt tension
    on 2.4L engines. 30,000
    Inspect the generator belt on 2.4L engines, and replace
    if necessary. 30,000
    Change the automatic transaxle fluid & filter if using
    your vehicle for any of the following: police, taxi,
    fleet, or frequent trailer towing.
    60,000
    Inspect and replace the PCV valve if necessary. 90,000
    Flush and replace the engine coolant. 100,000
    **## Replace the spark plugs on 2.4L PZEV*, 2.7L and 3.5L engines. 102,000
    _**

    The earlier reference at 30,000 mi is for the 2.4 engine unless it's the PZEV (partial zero emissions vehicle) and then the PZEV version is at 102,000 mi.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,593

    @sterlingdog said:Not to purchase a GM product is like blaming the entire barrel for one or two rotten apples

    Good point. My concern is this......almost every auto manufacturer has to do recalls, it's the nature of our complex cars and government regulations. Most recalls though, are done immediately, and most don't result in deaths. And, I don't know if other companies got nasty when the fault was pointed out. Your right, we can't think all GM cars could have a problem, but, for many people, I think the "trust" has been broken.

    For some people, if they are in the market and considering buying a new Cadillac, this company attitude may affect my buying decision. Would I trust their attitude is really going to change? Mary seems honest and sincere, and I am sure she will try to keep this from happening again, but, usually when I get burned once, I am very careful after that (and this has worked well for me, especially in business - people seldom really change, I don't know if companies do).

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,593

    @jayrider said:
    If I recall correctly, the original 60's Mustangs used the top of the gas tank as the floor of the trunk. People burned to death and the fix was a piece of steel reinforcement that cost less than a dollar.

    That was in the Pinto....I believe the problem was fixed by the time the Mustang II (based on the Pinto) came out.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • mako1amako1a Member Posts: 1,855

    I listened to you guys talk about adding techroline to turn off a check engine light. Then mine came on in the hi mile Silverado. I took it to my repair guy who told me about the 4 different codes saying mine was just a dirty something or other that didn't need replaced as long as the truck is running properly (which it is). He turned off the light. A week later it came back on so I left it on. Today I went 20 miles to get non-ethanol gas for the zero turn and filled the truck with the same REC 90 @ $3.99/gal. All together the gas was $75 WOW. Anyway, on the way home...off goes the orange light and never came back on. Just like drivers TV and Mikes sprinklers...problem solved. I love it when a plan comes together.

    2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali

  • sterlingdogsterlingdog Member Posts: 6,984

    @mako1a said:
    I listened to you guys talk about adding techroline to turn off a check engine light. Then mine came on in the hi mile Silverado. I took it to my repair guy who told me about the 4 different codes saying mine was just a dirty something or other that didn't need replaced as long as the truck is running properly (which it is). He turned off the light. A week later it came back on so I left it on. Today I went 20 miles to get non-ethanol gas for the zero turn and filled the truck with the same REC 90 @ $3.99/gal. All together the gas was $75 WOW. Anyway, on the way home...off goes the orange light and never came back on. Just like drivers TV and Mikes sprinklers...problem solved. I love it when a plan comes together.

    Do you think that the gas was related to the light going off?

    Richard

  • sterlingdogsterlingdog Member Posts: 6,984

    @imidazol97 said:

    My manual also says that the 2.7 L V6 gets plugs at 30K. I'm really surprised to read that. I suppose that the technician knew what he was talking about yesterday.

    Richard

  • sterlingdogsterlingdog Member Posts: 6,984

    @driver100 said:

    I can certainly see your point about the trust level. If I owned one of the vehicles in question, I'm sure that I would have no trust in GM. I was once burned by GM on a Caddy as you know. My wife wanted to give them a second chance and it has paid off for us. Even when you try to do what is best, so many things in life can still be a throw of the dice. We can only hope that companies will have some sense of ethics and product pride in the future.

    Richard

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,593

    @mako1a said:Anyway, on the way home...off goes the orange light and never came back on.

    I guess a piece of dirt could have got lodged on the sensor...or a low amount of gas did something. It is wierd. I thanked my computer specialist...he said putting the headphone jack into the outlet could reset the remote........who could have known???????

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,593
    edited April 2014

    @sterlingdog said:I was once burned by GM on a Caddy as you know.

    Sometimes, these incidents can work to your advantage. Going forward, GM will probably be extra careful to see that this won't happen again. I don't think Ford has had a life threatening problem since the tires episode.
    We had a business flight after 9/11 and people asked if we were scared of going. We honestly answered, security is going to be better than ever, we have no concerns.
    Companies do learn that these problems will catch up to them one day, and, hopefully they will be more careful in the future.

    I read an article that said government regulations actually cause more people to lose their lives in GM cars. It is an interesting twist you GM people will appreciate. The government forces car companies like GM to make lightweight cars so they can meet fleet mileage goals. GM is not good at making small cars, they lose money on every small car they make, they have to have strict cost controls on small cars.....here's where it gets interesting....how many people have lost their lives because of flimsy lightweight, poorly constructed small cars the government required GM to make......much more than 13!

    One more observation. We bought an Audi......I don't think the car ever was at fault in those acceleration cases. People put their foot on the gas instead of the brake all the time...in Tampa it happens at least once a day...a car goes through a store window or runs over people.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,123
    edited April 2014

    Driver...IIRC, the final "result" of the Audi 5000 UA issues were based on Audi making their pedals ideal for "heel and toe" operation (braking while keeping engine revs high)....something Europeans do regularly, and U.S. drivers hardly do at all.

    Result? acceleration and braking pedals on the same plane and closer together, causing the "issues".

    It almost ruined Audi. And, 60 Minutes, who first reported the issue, had to make a retraction, but the damage was already done.

    Regarding GM, not sure it was a weight savings, but probably going to the supplier that had the least expensive part. As my late Father used to say "I'd rather be good, than to be right".

    GM perhaps thought they were right in saving every last fraction of a penny to get that ignition as cheaply as possible. However, they weren't very good when they kept denying it was an issue for years (actually, more than a decade).

    From everything I've read, the switch itself was very weak, and poorly made. In addition, the sensors for the keys might be faulty, too. While it makes sense that "bumping" the keys in the ignition might turn the car off. There were other reports stating that the cars would keep running after the ignition was turned off and the key removed.

    For decades we've heard that GM was run by "bean counters". They can't move away from that sort of thinking quickly enough, in my estimation.

    The new CEO has her hands full. I believe she's sincere. But, there is a trust issue at play here, too. Years upon years of customer complaints on this very issue, all ignored or worse, dismissed with fatal consequences. I wish her well.

    I've been tempted a couple of times to put my toes back into the GM waters. On the surface, they have some seemingly good products (Richard's CRX, my experiences driving an ATS). Even my own positive experience with the last GM product I owned, a Tahoe, should enter into it.

    Then, all of a sudden, I read this sort of thing. I remember how flimsy the ignition switch felt, how it flopped about when putting in the key or taking it out, etc. and wonder if this was what they're talking about.

    So, I stay away from GM.

    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • @driver100 said:
    People put their foot on the gas instead of the brake all the time...in Tampa it happens at least once a day...a car goes through a store window or runs over people.

    I find the frequency of unintended acceleration to be a bit scary. I'm willing to bet the majority of those drivers never thought they would do something like that, fully confident in their abilities. I believe I'm now sold on the new electronic nannies for our next car, like the Subaru EyeSight monitor. A system like Subaru's would detect the object (person, window, wall, etc), cut power to the engine and engage the brakes. I'm sure it's a scary experience, but I'd rather be shocked and embarrassed rather than run someone down.

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,593

    @graphicguy said:
    The new CEO has her hands full. I believe she's sincere. But, there is a trust issue at play here, too.

    You know GG, I saw this headline in todays newspaper:
    Why victims claims may have died with the ‘Old GM’
    The article went on to say as you all probably know...when a company goes into Chapter 11 Bankruptcy, the new company comes out with a clean slate. Now, if it can be shown, there was a direct cover up...lawyers may be able to sue for compensation. However, that won't be easy to prove. Ms Barra has been very careful about what she has said, I am sorry, we will investigate, it didn't happen on my watch etc....nothing about reimbursing victims - the lawyers have coached her on what she can and can't say.

    About the Audi pedals, a friend was telling me he drove a Toyota product and he found the pedals were very close and not easy to differentiate. That could have been a problem in some of those cases.

    I agree with you about the bean counter mentality. That was very true for many years at GM. They seem to be trying to put more heart and soul into their cars lately, but the Cobalt was made at the height of the bean counter years.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,593

    @tyguy said:I'm now sold on the new electronic nannies for our next car,

    In the article I read about the government getting involved making cars more unsafe....he made the case things like rear cameras could raise the price of cars and so people will drive older unsafe cars because they can't afford a new car. I think that's a stretch...those cameras just cost $200. Lane change warnings and the Eyesight feature don't add huge costs....and the benefits far outweigh any additional cost.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,388
    @driver100 said:

    "those cameras just cost $200. Lane change warnings and the Eyesight feature don't add huge costs...."

    Individually, the costs may be nominal, but in total, they add up to quite a bit.

    *rear camera
    *lane departure warning (camera)
    *blind spot monitors (radar)
    *accident avoidance (radar)
    *front and rear parking sensors (radar)

    These are just a few. If you add them up, it's probably a thousand or more, depending upon which safety features you want to add to the average car.

    There are systems which will apply brakes when in cruise control to avoid hitting another car. There are backup systems that apply brakes when backing up and there is a padestrian or another car or object.

    Adding safety features cost money - I'll pay the price for many of those features but it will increase the cost of all vehicles. It's worth the price - but not everyone can afford a few thousand dollars added to a new car's price.

    I guess we could increase the outreach of the federal government by mandating these featured - but is that what we want?

    2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger

  • @abacomike said:
    I guess we could increase the outreach of the federal government by mandating these featured - but is that what we want?

    That does see to be the trend. Seat belts, air bags, ABS, and more. I could see the federal government requiring the new safety monitors, not that I'm an advocate of fed regulation, just that I foresee a time they may require them. I'm betting insurance companies will act first, charging much higher premiums for vehicles not equipped with the proactive safety systems and citing additional risk as the reasoning for the difference.

  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,388
    @tyguy said:

    "I'm betting insurance companies will act first, charging much higher premiums for vehicles not equipped with the proactive safety systems and citing additional risk as the reasoning for the difference."

    Good point, tyguy. But what the insurance companies do is they provide "discounts" for safety features rather than charging policy holders more if they don't have certain features. The net result is the same, but it's a less invasive way of doing business.

    The only way you can require certain safety features in a vehicle is for the federal government to mandate them - enforcement would otherwise be impossible.

    2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386

    Boy, no comments at all..... I thought there's be something in that post worth commenting on.....

    I think it's just GM's turn in the barrel. It happens to any big company that makes stupid decisions. Nissan seems to have some sort of Teflon, If you say company with recalls people will say GM, Toyota, Ford but you never hear Nissan and it's not like they've never had them.

    I still say if you are in a Chevron state and it's competitively priced go with it and nothing else.

    Funny thing. I had a CEL problem intermittently with the Mazda. Techron seemed to cure it either instantly of within a day or two. For my 12 day 3,00 mile trip using only top tier and Chevron when available no issue. I come back, fill at the local Exxon and ding! goes the light. Exxon is top tier. I used it more than once on the trip. The particular one in my town must have a tank problem. I had though those days were over. Costco going top tier solves the problem. Way cheaper, too. Maybe 12 cents a gallon. The difference varies a lot but Costco is always the cheapest.

    30K on a set of plugs? I thought those days were over. Does your Sebring have a slant six in it?

    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited April 2014

    Stop-Start

    By 2025, new cars and trucks sold in the U.S. will have to average 54.5 miles per gallon (4.3 liters per 100 kilometers) of gasoline, up from the current 30.8 mpg (7.6 liters). One feature will almost be a must-have: A “stop-start” device that shuts off the engine at a stop light and automatically turns it on when the driver releases the brake.

    Alex Molinaroli, a vice president with Johnson Controls Inc., which makes batteries that power the systems, estimates they raise gas mileage by a minimum of 5 percent.

    Stop-start first surfaced in Europe, where gas prices are far higher. Now, nearly all gas-electric hybrid vehicles have it, as do some cars and trucks with conventional engines. The BMW 3-Series has a simple system, helping the four-cylinder version with an automatic transmission get 28 miles per gallon (8.4 liters per 100 kilometers) in combined city and highway driving. A high-mileage version of Chrysler’s Ram pickup also has it, boosting combined mileage by 1 mpg to 21 (11.2 liters per 100 kms).

    In 10 years the advanced tech that will be in, and offered in vehicles will be amazing.

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,388
    @brian125 said:

    "One feature will almost be a must-have: A “stop-start” device that shuts off the engine at a stop light and automatically turns it on when the driver releases the brake."

    My CLS 550 has the "stop/start" function as did my last E 350. It is a great feature and the only way my V8 gets 28.5 mpg on the highway. Around town (I live in a suburban area) it drops to 17-18 mpg.

    The only aspect of the system I don't like is when you approach an intersection that is "stop sign" controlled and you make a 2 or 3 second stop before proceding, it can be annoying when the engine stops and then almost immediately starts up again. I can disable the system by pressing a button, but that defeats the purpose of the system.

    2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 17,504

    @tyguy‌

    One of my customers has a Forester with the Eye Sight. He said it is amazing. He was trying to exit the highway in the right lane and someone came over 3 lanes of traffic (from the left), across the zebra stripes, and cut right in front of him. He said he was astonished when his Forester "Just Stopped." He said there is absolutely NO WAY he could have stopped the car as fast as it stopped itself.

    @abacomike‌

    While insurance companies to give you discounts for having lots of safety equipment, they will also charge you more if your car is equipped with radar or laser cruise control. Replacement costs for sensors, electronics, and the man hours to install new ones are quite pricey.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD

  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited April 2014

    abacomike

    That seems to be a problem. maybe down the road it can be worked out where the vehicle knows your at a stop sign and not a light.

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676

    @fezo said:
    I think it's just GM's turn in the barrel. It happens to any big company that makes stupid decisions. Nissan seems to have some sort of Teflon, If you say company with recalls people will say GM, Toyota, Ford but you never hear Nissan

    They are one of the companies doing a Friday Data Dump while everyone is focused on GM's trials.

    Nissan recalls 1 million for airbags.
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCoQqQIwAA&url=http://www.chron.com/cars/article/Nissan-recalls-more-than-1M-vehicles-for-air-bags-5357972.php&ei=2ps9U6KkMciV2QWZtoCACQ&usg=AFQjCNHLCYi0Lh3ci8lWtv-3P2KRyh6b6A&bvm=bv.64125504,d.b2I

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,338

    @abacomike said:
    I guess we could increase the outreach of the federal government by mandating these featured - but is that what we want?

    I crunched the numbers on those back up cameras and depending on the figures you use the cost comes out to between one and three million dollars per life "saved."

    When all is said and done, I suppose it is inevitable that we will see an increasing number of regulations designed to protect careless, lazy, and stupid individuals from the consequences of their actions.

    After all, the collective ignorance of the US has increased to the point that warning labels are required to warn people that battery acid is not a beverage, coffee is hot, and razor blades are sharp.

    We tamper with the Law of Natural Selection at our peril...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

This discussion has been closed.