@stickguy said:
25 cars/year bought? Do you have time for a job?
I'm long retired.. Get alot of golf in depending where i'm staying either in Myrtle beach, or NY
My record was 10 vehicle bought in one month years ago. I averaged 2 to 3 cars some months for years for family and friends. I always loved to negotiate a new car deal. Remember i'm negotiating the deals via phone / internet so once a price is agreed on i'm done they went down to the dealership and completed the deal... I did the hard part for them getting them the best possible price in there targeted area..
@brian125: thanks for the kind comments, but you missed the key word in my post; I "used" to be like that.
I stopped being overly nice to customers because I'd provide them with all the info they wanted, let them walk because they asked, and then lost the sale to another dealer. Even though I did all the work in selling them that particular make/model. So no more of that. And I've sold more cars and made more money since.
So not that I'm pushy now, I'm just indifferent, but I don't go no extra mile for nobody unless there's something in it for me or I feel I owe that customer something. I will provide you with all the info you ask for, and all the info I need to disclose under the law.
If you come to my lot, I'll let you do all the work (sell yourself on a car we have), even go for a test drive yourself, sometimes not even offer a test drive if you don't ask. If a customer likes the car they'll volunteer to buy it. I will ask for the sale every time but I noticed the more indifferent I am the more times the customers offers to buy it.
I think the record time for me selling a used is spending less than 5 minutes with a customer. Honestly I didn't even know what his name was.
Walked in looking for a specific used car we had advertised, it was at an off site detail shop. I sent him with a lot guy to go there and show him the car, he liked it, put a deposit on it, came back to pick it up a few days later when I wasn't there. No test drive. The finance manager took the money, insurance guy did insurance, lot guy put the plates on and off he went. The less work the better for me.
@boomchek said:the first contact they make with me, before even seeing the car is what my best price is. I always tell them it's the one in the ad.
Boom, first I really liked your post about your approach to selling. If we were close on price I would have no problem buying from you. I just want to be treated right and fairly. The salesman who sold me the 535 told me, that was one of the easiest sales I have made. I said, I wanted a car, you wanted to sell a car, we got to a price that seemed fair, so why wouldn't I buy the car? He gave me the maximum discount I could hope for, and he gave me top dollar for the trade in, and I stretched it out a bit above that just to make sure he had to work at it a bit.
I can spot a wolfie and he isn't the kind of person I would buy from.
btw...does anyone know, how many people buy a car based solely on the monthly payment? I belive I read it was in the 60% range. Anything factual? I think those people could easily buy from a wolfie.
When I worked at a Chrysler dealer from 07-10, about 70-80% of buyers were payment buyers. Most were already in a loan on a car that they wanted to get out of. Most had the original finance contract still in the glove box, never removed it or looked at it since buying their car. And they wanted to "upgrade" or get something better, as long as their payments were close to what they were paying now.
Into a new car or truck they went, plus a chunk of negative equity = 96 month term = buried in payments for next 8 years. They understood the terms, but just itched for a new vehicle. Now that new Ram or Charger that retailed for $30k less $8k in rebates is worth $18k on trade if they were to turn around and try to get out of it a few months down the road . But the rebate covered some of their negative equity, add taxes, interest, etc.. = owing about $40k on a vehicle worth $18k.
"I meant it in a virtual, group-hug kind of way. It can be a lonely world when you're out there all by yourself, sporting nothing but a bad attitude."
That was beautifully stated, Kirstie. Have you ever applied to be an Ambassador to Russia or North Korea? We could sure use your obvious skills in diplomacy in one of those two countries that also sport bad attitudes!
@boomchek said:
When I worked at a Chrysler dealer from 07-10, about 70-80% of buyers were payment buyers. Most were already in a loan on a car that they wanted to get out of. Most had the original finance contract still in the glove box, never removed it or looked at it since buying their car. And they wanted to "upgrade" or get something better, as long as their payments were close to what they were paying now.
Into a new car or truck they went, plus a chunk of negative equity = 96 month term = buried in payments for next 8 years. They understood the terms, but just itched for a new vehicle.
I itch for a new vehicle so often that I'm thinking of seeing a dermatologist but buying cars like that is crazy. How could you sleep at night knowing that if you lost your job or got sick you could never pay off your debt.
I've financed cars in the past but I always knew that if necessary I had the cash in the mattress somewhere to pay off the note if necessary.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
One of the craziest calls I got when I worked there was a guy with bad credit (we advertised bad credit financing) who called and wanted to get a vehicle financed. He had a trade he owed money on. I asked him if he can bring in the trade, he said no, we'd have to get it ourselves from the impound lot.
He was behind on payments and his car got repoed the night before. So instead of figuring out a way of getting it back he calls us trying to trade it in for something else. I guess he thought we will pay off his old loan, get his car released, trade it in, and finance him on one of our vehicles, but we politely declined and told him he's on his own.
@brian125 said:
Here are my thoughts on the 54 mpg mandate by 2025. I think it will get done.
Oh I think we will get it done too, but at a price. That price being higher prices for cars and/or much smaller cars.
You may be right to assume higher prices for new tech features and better gas numbers in cars by
Once we learn about the pro's and cons of the intial faze.... prices should level off and drop. Just like a new tech TV. The Lcd TV"s were expensive at first , then 2 years later there not. Why? The new LED TV replaced it. Same will happen in the auto industry. AS our tech gets better it will drive the price down. Baby steps first.. It was just a hot minute ago we were walking on the moon.. Look where we are today.. 18 Trillion in debt... LOL Just joking here.. LOL.
However the new tech components are still going to add costs to average car. And while their prices would come down they will still be adding a lot to the price of the average car.
Chevrolet's inexpensive mini Spark car is a unlikely hit as many American buyers warm to this car, even though automaker that has traditionally struggled to sell small vehicles;The four-door Spark, made in South Korea, starts at $12,170 and get about 35 miles per gallon.
Again we are talking getting the Big Mac Meal Deal eating American into a smaller car to achieve that MPG average. Regardless of how many people like the small cars I really don't think that enough people will want them to put manufacturers over that high standard. If that happens the manufacturers will be fined and that too will put pressure to raise car prices.
Transmissions will get lighter in weight. Transmissions will get more gears.Transmission will have more electronics. And like you pointed out....Transmission will be more expensive at first to produce.
I think we are quickly approaching a transmission that has so many gears that it will be forever shifting. I think then the case can be strongly made for CVT's.
Prices may be higher on some vehicles at first but will level off. lets see in 10 years how far we come from today.. We have made great strides already.
Yes we have made great strides but there is something called the law of diminishing rates of returns. Applying that law to this subject will tell us that increasing a cars MPG from 35 to 36 would be harder and cost more than increasing it from 34 to 35 but not as much as increasing it from 36 to 37. You have to squeeze harder and harder to get each additional drop out of the sponge.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
@abacomike said:
So, I feel he would outlast most of us on this forum because people like him have tremendous stamina.
I may be reading him wrong as I only saw one of his posts (if he even made any other posts) but he does seem to have a larger than normal ego. If so for him to hold out here he would have to have his ego massaged by at least one other poster (maybe more). I have seen it in many forums, big ego enters and no one bows to him and they sulk out to someplace where they can be the big man in the forum. So if he comes in here with the attitude he showed in that one post I don't think he would stay here long.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
@graphicguy said:
First turn off....the new salesperson introduces himself, and immediately tells my friend he could "trust him". To which my friend replied..."I didn't know I couldn't trust you. Is there an experience I should know about which puts my trust in doubt?". The sales guy said he just wanted to reassure my friend. OK...whatever.
I learned a long time ago that when someone says "Trust me" it's best not to.
This story supports that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"I've financed cars in the past but I always knew that if necessary I had the cash in the mattress somewhere to pay off the note if necessary."
From 1968 to 1989, I financed all my cars. Back then, loans on autos were based on the rules of 78's which meant that the interest on the loan was calculated and you were pre-paying the interest up front over the first 3 years of a 5 year loan - if you traded your car during the first year or two, the payoff on the loan was quite high since you were not paying off much principal. This, the interest was "front-loaded" in the note for the loan.
It went to simple interest during the 1990's which meant you were paying only " earned interest, not prepaid interest .
I began leasing cars in 1990 through. 2004 mainly because it was wiser financially do do so for me at the time.
I began buying cars in 2005 with loans because I prefer to own my cars. It was only recently on the past two years that I now own my cars outright - I sleep better at night knowing that my kids won't have to sell my car to pay off any loans. They will inherit a free and clear title.
@boomchek said:" or get something better, as long as their payments were close to what they were paying now.
Thanks for those observations. I find that unbelievable. Like oldfarmer, I always had money saved to keep ahead in case I lost my job, or the car was worth more than the money owing on it. The statistic I saw - and I wish I could remember it exactly - was over 60% of people are buying new cars over 84 months.
He was behind on payments and his car got repoed the night before. So instead of figuring out a way of getting it back he calls us trying to trade it in for something else.
I laughed my head off about that one. Any more of those kind of stories.
Like cdn said, our governments do that kind of stuff every day.
@abacomike said:I began buying cars in 2005 with loans because I prefer to own my cars.
>
Nothing wrong with leasing or owning or making payments. What I didn't say properly, and what I was really asking, was approx how many people buy a car based on what the monthly payment will be? They don't care what the price of the new car is, what their trade in is worth, whether they have equity in their car....they just want to know how to get their monthly payment to a certain level.
@driver100 said:
Nothing wrong with leasing or owning or making payments. What I didn't say properly, and what I was really asking, was approx how many people buy a car based on what the monthly payment will be? They don't care what the price of the new car is, what their trade in is worth, whether they have equity in their car....they just want to know how to get their monthly payment to a certain level.
That's a problem, a car payment is based on the price of the car, the down payment (cash or trade in less what is owed on it), the term of the loan and the interest rate. If you don't know and control those things and know how they affect the final payment you will get burned in almost any transaction.
This is getting real interesting with help from the sales guys Boom, Mike, Isell and the car buyers like myself and most others on this forum. I like hearing both sides of the pricing story.
Personally I believe every car has one true value which is auction price and anything above that is the cost of having a group of for sale autos all shiny and ready to go which a buyer will pay.
I just wish I had someone to "build value" on my trade-in. That was a joke.
"I laughed my head off about that one. Any more of those kind of stories. Like cdn said, our governments do that kind of stuff every day."
I don't remember if I related this story to everyone when I was sales manager at the Infiniti store, but if I did, my apologies for repeating it.
About 7:00 PM one Friday evening in the early spring, a couple entered the dealership looking at one of the new M35's that had just been released. So I guess it was in 2006 since the M35 was released in the spring of that year.
They had pulled up in a late model Lexus GS 300 (if memory serves me) - gray with light gray leather interior. The odometer showed 9,000+ miles so it was relatively new.
The salesman landed them on a car in the existing inventory and came to the sales desk with his paperwork and the keys to the trade. I was doing the appraisals that evening and the sun had already set by the time I was ready to go out and do the appraisal inspection.
I did a CARFAX on the car and it showed nothing unusual so, in theory, it was a clean car. The salesman had tried to call the bank for a payoff, but the bank was closed and did not have an automated payoff system. We would have to wait until Saturday before we could get an official and accurate payoff on the car. So if they bought the car, I would not be able to complete the deal until Saturday, at the earliest. The estimated payoff was. $31,000+.
I picked up the keys to the car and was walking out of the showroom when I saw this tow truck back up with a liftgate jaw, pick up the Lexus and drove off in a matter of 1 or 2 minutes. I was a little taken back by that, but a sinking feeling began in the pit of my stomach - I had seen this before, but never in front of my dealership.
If it looked like a "repo" and smelled like a "repo", by gosh it had to be a repo.
So I walked back into the showroom and approached the couple who were sitting with the salesman in his open cubicle. I asked them if they were making regular payments on the car and if they were behind on any of those payments. They looked at each other somewhat sheepishly and the man replied "...nope, we're not behind and of course we are making our loan payments." I then related that a tow truck had just pulled off with their car in tow and did not get a chance to ask the tow truck driver why he was towing the car away because it happened so quickly - he never left his driver's seat.
The two of them asked for their car key back and got on their cell phone, called a cab, and they were gone in 5 minutes.
I called the bank the next morning and found that they were behind 5 months in payments and had been notified that they were going to repossess the Lexus.
So they were using a car that was being commandeered by the bank as a down payment on one of my new cars. I learned that some people, if given the chance, will try to put things over on a car dealership if they can get away with it. I wonder if I was the first dealership they tried that shell game with or if I was just one dealership in a long line of dealerships they had visited.
@abacomike said:
So they were using a car that was being commandeered by the bank as a down payment on one of my new cars. I learned that some people, if given the chance, will try to put things over on a car dealership if they can get away with it. I wonder if I was the first dealership they tried that shell game with or if I was just one dealership in a long line of dealerships they had visited.
My guess is either they tried with at least one other dealership who found out that it was going to be repo'ed or they knew that by coming in late you wouldn't get that info from the bank until after the deal was done.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"My guess is either they tried with at least one other dealership who found out that it was going to be repo'ed or they knew that by coming in late you wouldn't get that info from the bank until after the deal was done."
I don't know myself, but I would have thought they would have been smarter than that.
If we had appraised the car and arrived at an agreeable sales price, they should have known we would have to pull a credit bureau report to get their FICO score. The report would have shown "collections" or missed payments or does not pay when due. The score would tell the whole story.
So how far on the process could they have gotten? In some cases I would "spot" a car if the credit score was 700 or higher and there were no late or missed payments. Spotting a car means the customer would sign a contract and a note that would be valid until the trade payoff was acquired from the bank, usually for 1-4 days. It was easy to estimate a payoff since the credit report would show remaining balances on both leases or loans and usually were accurate +/- 30 days.
Once the payoff was acquired, a new contract and note would be generated and signed by the buyer with the accurate numbers. I don't remember ever getting "burned" on spots.
But this couple should have had enough knowledge and experience that a credit report would be pulled.
What can I say - the car business is an interesting profession, to say the least.
Wow, that's funny. I also would have assumed that the late payment history would have come up when a credit check was going to be done at one point or another. I wouldn't be surprised if the tow truck followed them from their house to the dealership.
I think it's simple - some people have no brain and no shame. They think it's OK to do what they do because they got "screwed" (in their mind anyway) by banks, car dealers, George Bush and/or Barack Obama. Zero taking resposibility, every opportunity for a free load is great. Even if their schemes don't work, there is always a next one and act of indignation that somebody actually dared to check their credentials.
" I also would have assumed that the late payment history would have come up when a credit check was going to be done at one point or another."
Definitely!
What I always disliked about the car business when I was in it was how badly marginal and/or poor creditworthy buyers were treated by banks, car dealers, etc.
As a hypothetical, let's assume we have two buyers in a dealership at the same time wanting to buy identical cars and needing a car loan to consummate the sale.
The first buyer has a 785 FICO score and perfect credit history. The second buyer has a 685 FICO score and some late payment on his credit cards and a couple of times he was late with his car payments.
The first buyer will get a loan with interest at 1 point over prime. The second buyer will get a loan, but at 4 points over prime. So the low credit buyer will have a loan accruing interest at 6.99% APR while the high credit buyer will have a loan at 2.99% APR. That is significant in terms of monthly payments.
Also, when I worked as a salesman, I would see managers taking advantage of the buyer with low credit scores and not discount the car as deeply as the high credit buyer. I hated that.
So when I got into management, if I had a buyer with marginal credit, I would usually try to discount the car as much as I could to make up for the high interest loan. The owner of the dealership didn't like that but I did get the deal made if at all possible with an additional 1% discount.
I guess those who took advantage of those marginal credit buyers thought they could make a killing and line their pockets, so to speak to quote a poster we've read about.
I was lucky with poor credit customers because I was able to get their loans "bought" by the better banks . I had some great finance managers who had great working relationships with the loan officers .
You keep assuming these cars in 2025 are going to be outpriced. There are several midsize vehicles you could buy today 2014 for 20 to 25k that are getting close to 40 mpg. Were not that far off.. 11 years is a lifetime in tech yrs.
Buy a Honda Accord lx...40 mpg.................. its 20k plus tax.. In a couple of years you will be able to super size your big mac deal and be happy with the direction cars are headed.
Yes people with really poor credit don't even bargain. They're grateful that anyone is willing to fund them. Some will balk at 29.9% interest rate, others will do it because they're stuck, have $0 money down, and need to get to work somehow. 29.9% though is reserved for those with worst possible credit (400-500 beacon, late payments, collection, etc...)
Yes people with really poor credit don't even bargain. They're grateful that anyone is willing to fund them. Some will balk at 29.9% interest rate, others will do it because they're stuck, have $0 money down, and need to get to work somehow. 29.9% though is reserved for those with worst possible credit (400-500 beacon, late payments, collection, etc...)
Why would someone with such a poor credit score even bother shopping a dealer? Why not just buy a CL junker to get to work for a few weeks and then buy something better later? Are you saying that these people don't even have a $1000 for basic transportation?
I've driven (and continue to drive) some god-awful junk in my lifetime. Sometimes by choice, sometimes by necessity but I'd never pay 29% interest.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
@abacomike said: this tow truck back up with a liftgate jaw, pick up the Lexus and drove off in a matter of 1 or 2 minutes.
I love these stories, although it is a sad commentary on our times. I wonder if these people really know they are doing something illegal, or if they just think they are clever and have found a way to ditch their old car and start out fresh again in a new car.
What do you say to them after their car is gone? Could we call a taxi for you?
Does anyone know how you can insert a picture these days? The format thing above....the one on the right, that used to be easy to use has changed. Seems you may have to download pictures to your computer and then put them on.....way too much trouble IMO.
@driver100 said:
Does anyone know how you can insert a picture these days? The format thing above....the one on the right, that used to be easy to use has changed. Seems you may have to download pictures to your computer and then put them on.....way too much trouble IMO.
You click on the attach picture link tool right above the posting box. It's the rectangular page with the right corner turned down. From the little triangle at the right you get a dropdown box with 3 choices: drag&drop into the top area, browse to find the picture on your computer, or at bottom insert URL to lift one from the internet.
The attach option now looks like a piece of paper with the upper right-hand corner folded over. If you can't see that, or can't see all 3 options, clear your browser's cache and reload the page.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I still have a problem. I paste the url (image location) onto the bottom line in the drop down box, but how do I select to use it? There isn't a button to actually post it or select it....that I can find.
Sorry....now I got it! You paste the URL into the lower box, and then you press ENTER on your keyboard. Thanks guys....I am a slow learner. Which brings me to this cartoon I wanted to post, referring to all of those posts about education a few days ago.
I re-read @wolfofcars' "Why do you fear me so much?". I think his boasting of his "skill level" and "W2 would make your eyes pop" were for the eyes of the readers here on edmunds only. I think the purpose of his post was to vent as well as brag. He's anonymous. He didn't indicate his dealership (according to the rules), his city, state, or even region of the country. I don't doubt that he puts in long hours. I don't doubt that he's "good at what he does" after "10 years" in a business that many struggle with. He also said he's "confident and proud." Which means he smiles, laughs at your jokes, and lets the buyer think they are in control when they are not. I don't agree with how he makes his money by "taking a big bite out of your checking/savings account." I also don't blame him for trying to close every sale before they walk out of the dealership.
Even our friends @abacomike and @isellhondas reached their breaking point. Mike with his dealer principal "forcing him to lie to a customer's face" (which he subsequently quite after which I have a tremendous amount of respect for) and Craig with newer customers' attitudes. I think we all agree that if we were permitted to, we'd all buy our Hondas, Lexuses, & Infinitis from them.
We are about the same age and I've been working at my job since 2002. I agree that you can't please everybody. I used to be super friendly and nice to every single person who walked in my store. I get similar BS from people all the time: "take this list down, price it up, let me know how much it is, lay it out. I'm going to get money from my customer and be by in an hour." So many times I either: don't hear back from them or I call them to follow up and they don't even pick up the phone. They show up hours later (toward the end of the day when they called in the morning when I'm super busy) and magically found 3/4 of the stuff they ordered in their shop or they return 3/4 of what they bought weeks later without their receipt.
I'm glad you came back and are posting regularly again.
I could never imagine someone trying to trade a car in that got repossessed while it was on another dealer's lot. It is equally appalling that they were shopping at another luxury car dealership. It never ceases to amaze me.
@isellhondas said all the time that people would come in and just "have to have" a loaded Accord EXL V6 w/ Navigation even though it would have been more fiscally responsible to buy an LX Accord, a Civic, or even a used Honda.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Not sure, but I must be waaaayyyyy in the minority when it comes to buying cars. The people I deal with when buying a car for myself are people I've had a long standing relationship with. My Acura and BMW sales people have both been with their respective dealerships for well over 15 years. They're respectful of me, and I am respectful of them. I buy at a skinny deal, yet they both have gladly sold me multiple cars. They've both gone out of their way to trade with other dealers if they have to.
I have a Mercedes sales person that always welcomes me, even though I've never bought a Mercedes. He's been at his dealership for well over 20 years. The running joke is that eventually, odds will catch up and I'll buy a car from him.
He's always been helpful, cordial, respectful towards me.
I always seek out the person who seems to have the most tenure at other dealerships. They value a business relationship. When I help someone buy a car, I always tell them to keep going to the same sales person, if still around, for any subsequent car purchases and to recommend their friends, too.
This was quite a few years ago, but I was shopping for a pickup with my Father...an F150. There were several trim levels available that neither of us were familiar with. The first Ford dealer we stopped at, the sales person approached my Father and I and before even introducing himself asked us if we were "buying today". My Father replied..."I'm not even sure you have what I want." So, the guy gives us a card and tells us to call him the day we're ready to buy. Yeah...sure....that's exactly what we'll do.
Fast forward a few days later, and we both buy an F150, from another dealer willing to put a package deal together for us.
Personally, the kind of treatment we received from the first dealer rolls right off my back. Not my Father, though. He paraded his new truck over to the first dealership, specifically asked for the sales manager, showed him the new truck, and the nthe salesman's card we had received. He made it a point to tell the manager that not only did the dealership miss out on selling him a new truck, but selling me a new truck, too. Not sure what good that did, but it sure made my Father feel better.
Snake...never thought about the posters who seem to blow into a thread, and grandly announce their presence (kind of like Wolfie) and just as quickly bow out, but you may be right.
I had a "stalker" of sorts in another thread here. If I posted the sky was blue, he emphatically said it was green. If I said it was daylight, he demonstrably said I was wrong, it was night.
I tried to reason with him. When that didn't work, I tried to ignore him. When finally that didn't work, I just decided to quit participating in that thread.
@brian125 said:
Boomcheck said..Wolfie's method of pouncing on customers may work for some, may not for others.
For me, when I started in the biz 10 years ago I used to be nice and wanting respect from customers by going out of my way for them, letting them "sleep on it" and "think about it" only to get walked all over and price shopped over $50 or a set of floor mats. So this is why he, and most places act that way and try to close a customer on a first visit
Your approach is good on how to sell a vehicle today. You are a good salesman . I'm the guy who looks for that internet manager, or sales mgr. with that Mentality . I wish the rest of the dealerships and sales guys would adapt this approach. What are they teaching these young people today?
I fight with Poster.... Isellhondas..... all the time thru these forums. Our posts toward each other are classic to say the least.. A good perpectus from both sides of the table But I'm right and he hates it.......LOL . He is a Good decent guy/ old school sales guy.. but he does not respect guys like me.. Dealers are not the only ones who know how to play this game.. A game that they set up.. We are only playing by your rules.. Guys like me Who know the art of the sale and how and when to make your best possible deal. The internet has change the game in the car buying world.. Isell thinks everybody wants to take his idea of a good price and we cant play the same tricks dealers pull on us.. Thats nonesense. You take your worst dealerships and pit one against the next and turn the table on them.. Treat folks right and you will be treated the same. Give your customers your best price and stop with all the lies and games. In the 5 mins I'm going to give you to earn my business all i want to hear is :........... Yes or NO on price. I'm not on the phone for a test drive I'm buying that minute.. Do you want the sale.
Mr brian we cant meet your offer of xxx price but if you want to buy from my dealership we will sell your model for this price.. thankyou for considering our dealership.. I dont need endless emails and talks back and forth for days with let me speak to my mgr.. Why waste all that time and effort if i'm a sales guy.. Time is money and your honesty even if its not the best price will earn you respect and alot of sucess in this business. If a customer wants to shop your price who cares... good bye you gave him your best and you move on. Dont take it personnal.
In well over 43 years I have bought over 1000 new vehicles for myself, family, friends and friends of friends. Mostly online with a faxed buyers order or some kind of conformation of the vehicle purchase and details.. Sorry to say but there are so many morons in your business its not funny. Clueless how to make a sale today from the educated buyer. . You could say the same for the customer side to. I cant believe how many dealership lie, twist the truth or decieve folks into sales numbers and vehicle info.. Its big business for the dealerships with the uneducated buyer.
Brian, I realize that you hare a self appointed "expert" on how to buy cars. I know you consider the "good" stores to be the ones that cheap sell their cars.
I do not appreciate it when you try to patronize me or put words in my mouth now that you have migrated over to this forum from your usual haunts in the Prices Paid forums.
I know this is a crusade for you but I would appreciate it if you would leave me out.
@driver100 said:
What I didn't say properly, and what I was really asking, was approx how many people buy a car based on what the monthly payment will be? They don't care what the price of the new car is, what their trade in is worth, whether they have equity in their car....they just want to know how to get their monthly payment to a certain level.
Your question is "how many" buyers/lessees are interested in monthly payment only, not the cost or value of their trade.
When I was in the business back in 2000-2008, I would "guesstimate" that 1 in 20 customers had that monthly payment approach to buying/leasing a car. In today's market, I would guesstimate more like 1 in 50 customers buy that way. Let me explain briefly why I believe this:
Back prior to 2009, buyers/lessees of cars used the internet sites much less that those in the market for a car in today's market. Edmunds.com was around, but not as widely known as it it today. The same for cars.com or vehix.com or kbb.com and now truevalue.com. Some of these are no longer in existence or have changed the way they show invoices, options, etc.
As an example, when I want to buy a car, the first thing I do is arrive at a fair market value for my trade-in vehicle and then add $2000 to that figure because my cars are pristine and my dealer always gives me a premium on that over and above Manheim or Kbb. The next thing I do is go on to Edmunds.com and build the vehicle I had decided upon when I was at the dealership looking at cars. I price it exactly as the sticker showed on the car's window. Edmunds gives me invoice, or as close as you can get on the internet to was actual invoice is before considering any holdback, dealer incentives, my USAA pricing, etc.
I am now armed with sufficient information to go into the dealership, sit down with one of the managers I work with all the time, and discuss my figures compared to his figures. Our first numbers comparison is usually about $1500 apart. They then bring in the used car manager and he reviews auction pricing for a car similar to mind. He then physically inspects every inch of my trade. That is usually enough for the manager to get almost exactly to my numbers. If he has additional incentives that can be used "with" USAA pricing and my "MBCA" $500 certificate, he will tell me. He always opens his spiral notebook with all the incentives show by model and the USAA pricing by model. He is always up front with me because he is willing to sell me a vehicle at his dead cost less my fleet discounts, which brings the final pricing well below invoice.
What I am trying to explain is that "anyone" can do what I do to walk into any dealership with a price he is willing to pay based on book value for his trade and invoice pricing from Edmunds.
Why would anyone buy a car today without first building the car here on Edmunds? Besides, their true value pricing is usually higher than what you can buy a car for if you negotiate hard.
So, in answer to your question, driver, very, very few buyers are interested in monthly payment only. Today, you can find out money factors on leases, incentives on leases, and even a monthly payment here on Edmunds in the Forums for just about any car you want to lease.
@graphicguy said:
Not sure, but I must be waaaayyyyy in the minority when it comes to
buying cars. The people I deal with when buying a car for myself are people I've had a long standing relationship with. My Acura and BMW sales people have both been with their respective dealerships for well over 15 years. They're respectful of me, and I am respectful of them. I buy at a skinny deal, yet they both have gladly sold me multiple cars. They've both gone out of their way to trade with other dealers if they have to.
I like your "one offer" approach for it's simplicity but what do you do if all dealers reject it? Do you go back with a higher offer? I suppose it all boils down to how good your research is. Do you use public sites like Edmunds or True Car or do you have access to other sources?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
@oldfarmer50 said:
Why would someone with such a poor credit score even bother shopping a dealer? Why not just buy a CL junker to get to work for a few weeks and then buy something better later? Are you saying that these people don't even have a $1000 for basic transportation?
I've driven (and continue to drive) some god-awful junk in my lifetime. Sometimes by choice, sometimes by necessity but I'd never pay 29% interest.
That's exactly what I'm saying. People coming into a dealer to buy a car and don't even have $100 to their name to put a deposit on the car. A lot of people living paycheque to paycheque just looking for transportation to and from work. Many typically want something above their means.
Funny you mention a $1000 CL beater because that's what I drive. We have one nice car that my wife uses and I bought myself a $700 old Accord to drive to work in. Working in the car business taught me one thing regarding old cars. A $1000 beater will have same reliability as a $5000 used car. The $5000 car will just look better and maybe have nicer features, but for a work commuter I don't need a fancy car.
Edit add on: I've had people come onto the lot wanting one of our old big Range Rovers or old BMW 7 series. We get them in from time to time but both of these cars are notoriously unreliable and expensive to fix. Last Range Rover we sold was an 04 for about $12k. These car retailed for nearly $100k new. Same for the BMW.
I get calls from time to time from people wanting to finance them. They want to have $300/month payments. I tell them right up front that these cars are too old to finance. And if you can't afford more than $300/month then you can't afford to drive these cars as it'll cost additional $400-$500/month in maintenance to keep them on the road. So if you have $0 down and want an old luxury car then you better rethink if that's what you really want. That car can become an expensive lawn ornament pretty quickly and leave you more broke than you already are.
@abacomike said:Your question is "how many" buyers/lessees are interested in monthly payment only, not the cost or value of their trade.
Right on Mike, and I thank you for your answer.
Why would anyone buy a car today without first building the car here on Edmunds?
I certainly use Edmunds pricing when buying a car. But what percentage of the population knows about any of this stuff? I think it is very little. If I am talking to people and I tell them the experiences I have when buying a car...they are in disbelief. They practiacally say...you mean you don't just go in, get your tiny discount, believe what they tell you your trade is worth, and leave with a new car. I would guess less than 10% of the population would use a site like Edmunds.
@driver100 said:
Sorry....now I got it! You paste the URL into the lower box, and then you press ENTER on your keyboard. Thanks guys....I am a slow learner. Which brings me to this cartoon I wanted to post, referring to all of those posts about education a few days ago.
Driver - my wife has that exact quote on the wall of her office.
Brian, I realize that you hare a self appointed "expert" on how to buy cars. I know you consider the "good" stores to be the ones that cheap sell their cars.
I do not appreciate it when you try to patronize me or put words in my mouth now that you have migrated over to this forum from your usual haunts in the Prices Paid forums.
I know this is a crusade for you but I would appreciate it if you would leave me out.
Isell
I will do that if you promise to stay out of the art of the deal in that forum. A buyer who wants to save 300 or more, travel 2 or 4 hours to get there best deal is intittled to and is there decision and choice. Not yours. You know as well as I the Internet has change the game for Car buyers. Stop taken in personnal when i tell folks... Do not step into the dealerships when your ready to buy. Work online and via phone with all internet managers on pricing first etc. Your auto industry deceives and rips off enough un-educated buyers through out the year.. Let our little percentage of smart buyers have our day in the sun..
I call it like i see it in your business and life. What haunts you in your Auto business is a direct result of what your industry set up / created. Not what i do. I play by your rules. The only haunting words I heard in the prices paid forum was you telling folks how not to make your best possible deal.
I made the switch over to Win8 from XP. Took me a few times to get Edmunds to let me post again, so for better or worse, I'm able to now.
Keeping the old XP computers for now to make sure I don't need any files from the desktop. I'm still going to use the laptop as an off line computer.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Phew! I finally got caught up with this week's posts.
--Many good points were made on meeting the new 56.5 MPG requirements for 2025. Some hybrids already surpass this standard though so this is not a big deal I believe.
--A satirical piece penned by @Wolfie provoked a heated squabble on both sides
--Bashing GM again--and again continued unabated.
--Buying/selling an automobile based on monthly payments rather than the out the door price was particularly abhorrent especially when applied to consumers low FICO scores.
Big up to @Kirstie for expanding my vocabulary with the concept of "virtual hugs."
Don't know if it was discussed but the auto industry had a good month of March.
Jeep had its highest monthly sales ever. Ford sold over 70,000 F-Series trucks and Fusion saw terrific gains in March 2014.
GM sales were up 4%, with the Cruze making a rebound with a 14% increase. Not sure what happened at Cadillac but their sales were unremarkable.
By the way, the Big Three, in terms of market share for March, are: GM 16.7%; Ford 15.8%; and Toyota 14.0%. The Chrysler Group at 12.6% is not far behind.
@graphicguy said:
My Acura and BMW sales people have both been with their respective dealerships for well over 15 years. They're respectful of me, and I am respectful of them. I buy at a skinny deal, yet they both have gladly sold me multiple cars.
What a joy it would be to deal with the same salesperson over a period of years. In Arizona the turnover at the car dealerships is measured in days, not weeks, let alone years. I am very loyal to people I buy things from, but they turn over so quickly in this "wonderful" sunbelt area that I rarely get the chance to prove it.
@bwia said:
Phew! I finally got caught up with this week's posts.
GM sales were up 4%, with the Cruze making a rebound with a 14% increase. Not sure what happened at Cadillac but their sales were unremarkable.
Over at Autoextremist Peter M. De Lorenzo is thinks the problem is that Cadillac is now a serious competitor to the Germans and Cadillac has priced the ATS and CTS accordingly. However,he also opines that most US consumers don't think Cadillac is "there" yet, and Cadillac has to stick large rebates and heavily subvented leases on the cars to move them, which chips away at their luxury status.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
mike, I would bet your estimate (1 in 20 or 1 in 50) is way low. Maybe not where you worked (mid level luxury), but in the overall market, there are plenty. They are just buying Kias, and other cheaper cars!
I also suspect a large percentage don't do any serious pricing research on the internet sites like this. Look at colors? Sure. maybe get as far as build and price (TMV).
"mike, I would bet your estimate (1 in 20 or 1 in 50) is way low."
You might be right stick! Yes, I was in Lexus and Infinity and really don't know what is/was going on in the other dealerships.
Then I would revise my response to driver's question to maybe 1 on 10, then and now when you consider many buyers are marginal buyers and need to keep their monthly payments within a budget.
"What a joy it would be to deal with the same salesperson over a period of years. In Arizona the turnover at the car dealerships is measured in days, not weeks, let alone years."
You are right, CDN! I usually hired salespeople in groups of 10-15 because we needed 30+ salesmen on staff. I put them through a 2-week training program learning the basics in car sales such as:
*meet and greet *information gathering from the customer *product selection by customers in the new car lots *product. peesentation and product knowledge for each model *use of the computer programs designed to generate completed forms *payoff quotes *dealership knowledge and who's who on the store *demo drives and what routes to take *using key trac and how to access car keys and replace them in key trac
As you can see, it took at least 2 weeks to learn this since I tended to stay away from hiring people with previous experience because they had learned bad habits and were usually untrainable.
After 2 months, I would be lucky if I had 3 salespeople left of the original 15-20.
People want to sell cars because they think the can make tons of money. That is not going to happen in today's vehicle dealerships. It takes years to build clientele with repeat business.
That's the major reason for the high turnover - they think that in 2-3 months, they will be making $100K - then when they work 50-60 hours a week and are making $1500-$2000 a month those first 2-6 months, they're gone.
Every so often I would hire and train a salesman who worked hard and. "smart" and handled customers correctly by listening and not rushing to make the sale who stuck it out. After 8-10 months, they were making $60K-$70K a year . They knew how to make bonuses and additional money in "spiffs" (mini-bonus for selling 5 cars on a weekend or selling cars in stock for more than 120 days - usually $100 - $500 a pop).
I can count the number of successful salesman on just the fingers of my 2 hands over a period of 5 years.
Comments
I'm long retired.. Get alot of golf in depending where i'm staying either in Myrtle beach, or NY
My record was 10 vehicle bought in one month years ago. I averaged 2 to 3 cars some months for years for family and friends. I always loved to negotiate a new car deal. Remember i'm negotiating the deals via phone / internet so once a price is agreed on i'm done they went down to the dealership and completed the deal... I did the hard part for them getting them the best possible price in there targeted area..
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
@brian125: thanks for the kind comments, but you missed the key word in my post; I "used" to be like that.
I stopped being overly nice to customers because I'd provide them with all the info they wanted, let them walk because they asked, and then lost the sale to another dealer. Even though I did all the work in selling them that particular make/model. So no more of that. And I've sold more cars and made more money since.
So not that I'm pushy now, I'm just indifferent, but I don't go no extra mile for nobody unless there's something in it for me or I feel I owe that customer something. I will provide you with all the info you ask for, and all the info I need to disclose under the law.
If you come to my lot, I'll let you do all the work (sell yourself on a car we have), even go for a test drive yourself, sometimes not even offer a test drive if you don't ask. If a customer likes the car they'll volunteer to buy it. I will ask for the sale every time but I noticed the more indifferent I am the more times the customers offers to buy it.
I think the record time for me selling a used is spending less than 5 minutes with a customer. Honestly I didn't even know what his name was.
Walked in looking for a specific used car we had advertised, it was at an off site detail shop. I sent him with a lot guy to go there and show him the car, he liked it, put a deposit on it, came back to pick it up a few days later when I wasn't there. No test drive. The finance manager took the money, insurance guy did insurance, lot guy put the plates on and off he went. The less work the better for me.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Boom, first I really liked your post about your approach to selling. If we were close on price I would have no problem buying from you. I just want to be treated right and fairly. The salesman who sold me the 535 told me, that was one of the easiest sales I have made. I said, I wanted a car, you wanted to sell a car, we got to a price that seemed fair, so why wouldn't I buy the car? He gave me the maximum discount I could hope for, and he gave me top dollar for the trade in, and I stretched it out a bit above that just to make sure he had to work at it a bit.
I can spot a wolfie and he isn't the kind of person I would buy from.
btw...does anyone know, how many people buy a car based solely on the monthly payment? I belive I read it was in the 60% range. Anything factual? I think those people could easily buy from a wolfie.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
When I worked at a Chrysler dealer from 07-10, about 70-80% of buyers were payment buyers. Most were already in a loan on a car that they wanted to get out of. Most had the original finance contract still in the glove box, never removed it or looked at it since buying their car. And they wanted to "upgrade" or get something better, as long as their payments were close to what they were paying now.
Into a new car or truck they went, plus a chunk of negative equity = 96 month term = buried in payments for next 8 years. They understood the terms, but just itched for a new vehicle. Now that new Ram or Charger that retailed for $30k less $8k in rebates is worth $18k on trade if they were to turn around and try to get out of it a few months down the road . But the rebate covered some of their negative equity, add taxes, interest, etc.. = owing about $40k on a vehicle worth $18k.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
But the rebate covered some of their negative equity, add taxes, interest, etc.. = owing about $40k on a vehicle worth $18k.
This, by the way, is how a country can end up 17 trillion in debt with the majority wondering what the big deal is.
"I meant it in a virtual, group-hug kind of way. It can be a lonely world when you're out there all by yourself, sporting nothing but a bad attitude."
That was beautifully stated, Kirstie. Have you ever applied to be an Ambassador to Russia or North Korea? We could sure use your obvious skills in diplomacy in one of those two countries that also sport bad attitudes!
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
@cdnpinhead said:
X2
Excellent point. Priceless.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I should point out that I'm in Canada, but I'm pretty sure this situation repeats itself even more frequently in dealerships across the US.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I itch for a new vehicle so often that I'm thinking of seeing a dermatologist but buying cars like that is crazy. How could you sleep at night knowing that if you lost your job or got sick you could never pay off your debt.
I've financed cars in the past but I always knew that if necessary I had the cash in the mattress somewhere to pay off the note if necessary.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Oh yeah, many people don't lose sleep over it.
One of the craziest calls I got when I worked there was a guy with bad credit (we advertised bad credit financing) who called and wanted to get a vehicle financed. He had a trade he owed money on. I asked him if he can bring in the trade, he said no, we'd have to get it ourselves from the impound lot.
He was behind on payments and his car got repoed the night before. So instead of figuring out a way of getting it back he calls us trying to trade it in for something else. I guess he thought we will pay off his old loan, get his car released, trade it in, and finance him on one of our vehicles, but we politely declined and told him he's on his own.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Oh I think we will get it done too, but at a price. That price being higher prices for cars and/or much smaller cars.
However the new tech components are still going to add costs to average car. And while their prices would come down they will still be adding a lot to the price of the average car.
Again we are talking getting the Big Mac Meal Deal eating American into a smaller car to achieve that MPG average. Regardless of how many people like the small cars I really don't think that enough people will want them to put manufacturers over that high standard. If that happens the manufacturers will be fined and that too will put pressure to raise car prices.
I think we are quickly approaching a transmission that has so many gears that it will be forever shifting. I think then the case can be strongly made for CVT's.
Yes we have made great strides but there is something called the law of diminishing rates of returns. Applying that law to this subject will tell us that increasing a cars MPG from 35 to 36 would be harder and cost more than increasing it from 34 to 35 but not as much as increasing it from 36 to 37. You have to squeeze harder and harder to get each additional drop out of the sponge.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I may be reading him wrong as I only saw one of his posts (if he even made any other posts) but he does seem to have a larger than normal ego. If so for him to hold out here he would have to have his ego massaged by at least one other poster (maybe more). I have seen it in many forums, big ego enters and no one bows to him and they sulk out to someplace where they can be the big man in the forum. So if he comes in here with the attitude he showed in that one post I don't think he would stay here long.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I learned a long time ago that when someone says "Trust me" it's best not to.
This story supports that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"I've financed cars in the past but I always knew that if necessary I had the cash in the mattress somewhere to pay off the note if necessary."
From 1968 to 1989, I financed all my cars. Back then, loans on autos were based on the rules of 78's which meant that the interest on the loan was calculated and you were pre-paying the interest up front over the first 3 years of a 5 year loan - if you traded your car during the first year or two, the payoff on the loan was quite high since you were not paying off much principal. This, the interest was "front-loaded" in the note for the loan.
It went to simple interest during the 1990's which meant you were paying only " earned interest, not prepaid interest .
I began leasing cars in 1990 through. 2004 mainly because it was wiser financially do do so for me at the time.
I began buying cars in 2005 with loans because I prefer to own my cars. It was only recently on the past two years that I now own my cars outright - I sleep better at night knowing that my kids won't have to sell my car to pay off any loans. They will inherit a free and clear title.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Thanks for those observations. I find that unbelievable. Like oldfarmer, I always had money saved to keep ahead in case I lost my job, or the car was worth more than the money owing on it. The statistic I saw - and I wish I could remember it exactly - was over 60% of people are buying new cars over 84 months.
I laughed my head off about that one. Any more of those kind of stories.
Like cdn said, our governments do that kind of stuff every day.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
>
Nothing wrong with leasing or owning or making payments. What I didn't say properly, and what I was really asking, was approx how many people buy a car based on what the monthly payment will be? They don't care what the price of the new car is, what their trade in is worth, whether they have equity in their car....they just want to know how to get their monthly payment to a certain level.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That's a problem, a car payment is based on the price of the car, the down payment (cash or trade in less what is owed on it), the term of the loan and the interest rate. If you don't know and control those things and know how they affect the final payment you will get burned in almost any transaction.
Now for your irony story for today
https://www.facebook.com/abc7chicago/posts/10152350231231162
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
This is getting real interesting with help from the sales guys Boom, Mike, Isell and the car buyers like myself and most others on this forum. I like hearing both sides of the pricing story.
Personally I believe every car has one true value which is auction price and anything above that is the cost of having a group of for sale autos all shiny and ready to go which a buyer will pay.
I just wish I had someone to "build value" on my trade-in. That was a joke.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
"I laughed my head off about that one. Any more of those kind of stories. Like cdn said, our governments do that kind of stuff every day."
I don't remember if I related this story to everyone when I was sales manager at the Infiniti store, but if I did, my apologies for repeating it.
About 7:00 PM one Friday evening in the early spring, a couple entered the dealership looking at one of the new M35's that had just been released. So I guess it was in 2006 since the M35 was released in the spring of that year.
They had pulled up in a late model Lexus GS 300 (if memory serves me) - gray with light gray leather interior. The odometer showed 9,000+ miles so it was relatively new.
The salesman landed them on a car in the existing inventory and came to the sales desk with his paperwork and the keys to the trade. I was doing the appraisals that evening and the sun had already set by the time I was ready to go out and do the appraisal inspection.
I did a CARFAX on the car and it showed nothing unusual so, in theory, it was a clean car. The salesman had tried to call the bank for a payoff, but the bank was closed and did not have an automated payoff system. We would have to wait until Saturday before we could get an official and accurate payoff on the car. So if they bought the car, I would not be able to complete the deal until Saturday, at the earliest. The estimated payoff was. $31,000+.
I picked up the keys to the car and was walking out of the showroom when I saw this tow truck back up with a liftgate jaw, pick up the Lexus and drove off in a matter of 1 or 2 minutes. I was a little taken back by that, but a sinking feeling began in the pit of my stomach - I had seen this before, but never in front of my dealership.
If it looked like a "repo" and smelled like a "repo", by gosh it had to be a repo.
So I walked back into the showroom and approached the couple who were sitting with the salesman in his open cubicle. I asked them if they were making regular payments on the car and if they were behind on any of those payments. They looked at each other somewhat sheepishly and the man replied "...nope, we're not behind and of course we are making our loan payments." I then related that a tow truck had just pulled off with their car in tow and did not get a chance to ask the tow truck driver why he was towing the car away because it happened so quickly - he never left his driver's seat.
The two of them asked for their car key back and got on their cell phone, called a cab, and they were gone in 5 minutes.
I called the bank the next morning and found that they were behind 5 months in payments and had been notified that they were going to repossess the Lexus.
So they were using a car that was being commandeered by the bank as a down payment on one of my new cars. I learned that some people, if given the chance, will try to put things over on a car dealership if they can get away with it. I wonder if I was the first dealership they tried that shell game with or if I was just one dealership in a long line of dealerships they had visited.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
My guess is either they tried with at least one other dealership who found out that it was going to be repo'ed or they knew that by coming in late you wouldn't get that info from the bank until after the deal was done.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"My guess is either they tried with at least one other dealership who found out that it was going to be repo'ed or they knew that by coming in late you wouldn't get that info from the bank until after the deal was done."
I don't know myself, but I would have thought they would have been smarter than that.
If we had appraised the car and arrived at an agreeable sales price, they should have known we would have to pull a credit bureau report to get their FICO score. The report would have shown "collections" or missed payments or does not pay when due. The score would tell the whole story.
So how far on the process could they have gotten? In some cases I would "spot" a car if the credit score was 700 or higher and there were no late or missed payments. Spotting a car means the customer would sign a contract and a note that would be valid until the trade payoff was acquired from the bank, usually for 1-4 days. It was easy to estimate a payoff since the credit report would show remaining balances on both leases or loans and usually were accurate +/- 30 days.
Once the payoff was acquired, a new contract and note would be generated and signed by the buyer with the accurate numbers. I don't remember ever getting "burned" on spots.
But this couple should have had enough knowledge and experience that a credit report would be pulled.
What can I say - the car business is an interesting profession, to say the least.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
Wow, that's funny. I also would have assumed that the late payment history would have come up when a credit check was going to be done at one point or another. I wouldn't be surprised if the tow truck followed them from their house to the dealership.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
I think it's simple - some people have no brain and no shame. They think it's OK to do what they do because they got "screwed" (in their mind anyway) by banks, car dealers, George Bush and/or Barack Obama. Zero taking resposibility, every opportunity for a free load is great. Even if their schemes don't work, there is always a next one and act of indignation that somebody actually dared to check their credentials.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
" I also would have assumed that the late payment history would have come up when a credit check was going to be done at one point or another."
Definitely!
What I always disliked about the car business when I was in it was how badly marginal and/or poor creditworthy buyers were treated by banks, car dealers, etc.
As a hypothetical, let's assume we have two buyers in a dealership at the same time wanting to buy identical cars and needing a car loan to consummate the sale.
The first buyer has a 785 FICO score and perfect credit history. The second buyer has a 685 FICO score and some late payment on his credit cards and a couple of times he was late with his car payments.
The first buyer will get a loan with interest at 1 point over prime. The second buyer will get a loan, but at 4 points over prime. So the low credit buyer will have a loan accruing interest at 6.99% APR while the high credit buyer will have a loan at 2.99% APR. That is significant in terms of monthly payments.
Also, when I worked as a salesman, I would see managers taking advantage of the buyer with low credit scores and not discount the car as deeply as the high credit buyer. I hated that.
So when I got into management, if I had a buyer with marginal credit, I would usually try to discount the car as much as I could to make up for the high interest loan. The owner of the dealership didn't like that but I did get the deal made if at all possible with an additional 1% discount.
I guess those who took advantage of those marginal credit buyers thought they could make a killing and line their pockets, so to speak to quote a poster we've read about.
I was lucky with poor credit customers because I was able to get their loans "bought" by the better banks . I had some great finance managers who had great working relationships with the loan officers .
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
snakeweasel,
You keep assuming these cars in 2025 are going to be outpriced. There are several midsize vehicles you could buy today 2014 for 20 to 25k that are getting close to 40 mpg. Were not that far off.. 11 years is a lifetime in tech yrs.
Buy a Honda Accord lx...40 mpg.................. its 20k plus tax.. In a couple of years you will be able to super size your big mac deal and be happy with the direction cars are headed.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
@abacomike
Yes people with really poor credit don't even bargain. They're grateful that anyone is willing to fund them. Some will balk at 29.9% interest rate, others will do it because they're stuck, have $0 money down, and need to get to work somehow. 29.9% though is reserved for those with worst possible credit (400-500 beacon, late payments, collection, etc...)
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Why would someone with such a poor credit score even bother shopping a dealer? Why not just buy a CL junker to get to work for a few weeks and then buy something better later? Are you saying that these people don't even have a $1000 for basic transportation?
I've driven (and continue to drive) some god-awful junk in my lifetime. Sometimes by choice, sometimes by necessity but I'd never pay 29% interest.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I love these stories, although it is a sad commentary on our times. I wonder if these people really know they are doing something illegal, or if they just think they are clever and have found a way to ditch their old car and start out fresh again in a new car.
What do you say to them after their car is gone? Could we call a taxi for you?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Does anyone know how you can insert a picture these days? The format thing above....the one on the right, that used to be easy to use has changed. Seems you may have to download pictures to your computer and then put them on.....way too much trouble IMO.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
You click on the attach picture link tool right above the posting box. It's the rectangular page with the right corner turned down. From the little triangle at the right you get a dropdown box with 3 choices: drag&drop into the top area, browse to find the picture on your computer, or at bottom insert URL to lift one from the internet.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The attach option now looks like a piece of paper with the upper right-hand corner folded over. If you can't see that, or can't see all 3 options, clear your browser's cache and reload the page.
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Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
I still have a problem. I paste the url (image location) onto the bottom line in the drop down box, but how do I select to use it? There isn't a button to actually post it or select it....that I can find.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Sorry....now I got it! You paste the URL into the lower box, and then you press ENTER on your keyboard. Thanks guys....I am a slow learner. Which brings me to this cartoon I wanted to post, referring to all of those posts about education a few days ago.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I re-read @wolfofcars' "Why do you fear me so much?". I think his boasting of his "skill level" and "W2 would make your eyes pop" were for the eyes of the readers here on edmunds only. I think the purpose of his post was to vent as well as brag. He's anonymous. He didn't indicate his dealership (according to the rules), his city, state, or even region of the country. I don't doubt that he puts in long hours. I don't doubt that he's "good at what he does" after "10 years" in a business that many struggle with. He also said he's "confident and proud." Which means he smiles, laughs at your jokes, and lets the buyer think they are in control when they are not. I don't agree with how he makes his money by "taking a big bite out of your checking/savings account." I also don't blame him for trying to close every sale before they walk out of the dealership.
Even our friends @abacomike and @isellhondas reached their breaking point. Mike with his dealer principal "forcing him to lie to a customer's face" (which he subsequently quite after which I have a tremendous amount of respect for) and Craig with newer customers' attitudes. I think we all agree that if we were permitted to, we'd all buy our Hondas, Lexuses, & Infinitis from them.
@boomcheck
We are about the same age and I've been working at my job since 2002. I agree that you can't please everybody. I used to be super friendly and nice to every single person who walked in my store. I get similar BS from people all the time: "take this list down, price it up, let me know how much it is, lay it out. I'm going to get money from my customer and be by in an hour." So many times I either: don't hear back from them or I call them to follow up and they don't even pick up the phone. They show up hours later (toward the end of the day when they called in the morning when I'm super busy) and magically found 3/4 of the stuff they ordered in their shop or they return 3/4 of what they bought weeks later without their receipt.
I'm glad you came back and are posting regularly again.
@abacomike
I could never imagine someone trying to trade a car in that got repossessed while it was on another dealer's lot. It is equally appalling that they were shopping at another luxury car dealership. It never ceases to amaze me.
@isellhondas said all the time that people would come in and just "have to have" a loaded Accord EXL V6 w/ Navigation even though it would have been more fiscally responsible to buy an LX Accord, a Civic, or even a used Honda.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Not sure, but I must be waaaayyyyy in the minority when it comes to buying cars. The people I deal with when buying a car for myself are people I've had a long standing relationship with. My Acura and BMW sales people have both been with their respective dealerships for well over 15 years. They're respectful of me, and I am respectful of them. I buy at a skinny deal, yet they both have gladly sold me multiple cars. They've both gone out of their way to trade with other dealers if they have to.
I have a Mercedes sales person that always welcomes me, even though I've never bought a Mercedes. He's been at his dealership for well over 20 years. The running joke is that eventually, odds will catch up and I'll buy a car from him.
He's always been helpful, cordial, respectful towards me.
I always seek out the person who seems to have the most tenure at other dealerships. They value a business relationship. When I help someone buy a car, I always tell them to keep going to the same sales person, if still around, for any subsequent car purchases and to recommend their friends, too.
This was quite a few years ago, but I was shopping for a pickup with my Father...an F150. There were several trim levels available that neither of us were familiar with. The first Ford dealer we stopped at, the sales person approached my Father and I and before even introducing himself asked us if we were "buying today". My Father replied..."I'm not even sure you have what I want." So, the guy gives us a card and tells us to call him the day we're ready to buy. Yeah...sure....that's exactly what we'll do.
Fast forward a few days later, and we both buy an F150, from another dealer willing to put a package deal together for us.
Personally, the kind of treatment we received from the first dealer rolls right off my back. Not my Father, though. He paraded his new truck over to the first dealership, specifically asked for the sales manager, showed him the new truck, and the nthe salesman's card we had received. He made it a point to tell the manager that not only did the dealership miss out on selling him a new truck, but selling me a new truck, too. Not sure what good that did, but it sure made my Father feel better.
Snake...never thought about the posters who seem to blow into a thread, and grandly announce their presence (kind of like Wolfie) and just as quickly bow out, but you may be right.
I had a "stalker" of sorts in another thread here. If I posted the sky was blue, he emphatically said it was green. If I said it was daylight, he demonstrably said I was wrong, it was night.
I tried to reason with him. When that didn't work, I tried to ignore him. When finally that didn't work, I just decided to quit participating in that thread.
I do not appreciate it when you try to patronize me or put words in my mouth now that you have migrated over to this forum from your usual haunts in the Prices Paid forums.
I know this is a crusade for you but I would appreciate it if you would leave me out.
Your question is "how many" buyers/lessees are interested in monthly payment only, not the cost or value of their trade.
When I was in the business back in 2000-2008, I would "guesstimate" that 1 in 20 customers had that monthly payment approach to buying/leasing a car. In today's market, I would guesstimate more like 1 in 50 customers buy that way. Let me explain briefly why I believe this:
Back prior to 2009, buyers/lessees of cars used the internet sites much less that those in the market for a car in today's market. Edmunds.com was around, but not as widely known as it it today. The same for cars.com or vehix.com or kbb.com and now truevalue.com. Some of these are no longer in existence or have changed the way they show invoices, options, etc.
As an example, when I want to buy a car, the first thing I do is arrive at a fair market value for my trade-in vehicle and then add $2000 to that figure because my cars are pristine and my dealer always gives me a premium on that over and above Manheim or Kbb. The next thing I do is go on to Edmunds.com and build the vehicle I had decided upon when I was at the dealership looking at cars. I price it exactly as the sticker showed on the car's window. Edmunds gives me invoice, or as close as you can get on the internet to was actual invoice is before considering any holdback, dealer incentives, my USAA pricing, etc.
I am now armed with sufficient information to go into the dealership, sit down with one of the managers I work with all the time, and discuss my figures compared to his figures. Our first numbers comparison is usually about $1500 apart. They then bring in the used car manager and he reviews auction pricing for a car similar to mind. He then physically inspects every inch of my trade. That is usually enough for the manager to get almost exactly to my numbers. If he has additional incentives that can be used "with" USAA pricing and my "MBCA" $500 certificate, he will tell me. He always opens his spiral notebook with all the incentives show by model and the USAA pricing by model. He is always up front with me because he is willing to sell me a vehicle at his dead cost less my fleet discounts, which brings the final pricing well below invoice.
What I am trying to explain is that "anyone" can do what I do to walk into any dealership with a price he is willing to pay based on book value for his trade and invoice pricing from Edmunds.
Why would anyone buy a car today without first building the car here on Edmunds? Besides, their true value pricing is usually higher than what you can buy a car for if you negotiate hard.
So, in answer to your question, driver, very, very few buyers are interested in monthly payment only. Today, you can find out money factors on leases, incentives on leases, and even a monthly payment here on Edmunds in the Forums for just about any car you want to lease.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
buying cars. The people I deal with when buying a car for myself are people I've had a long standing relationship with. My Acura and BMW sales people have both been with their respective dealerships for well over 15 years. They're respectful of me, and I am respectful of them. I buy at a skinny deal, yet they both have gladly sold me multiple cars. They've both gone out of their way to trade with other dealers if they have to.
I like your "one offer" approach for it's simplicity but what do you do if all dealers reject it? Do you go back with a higher offer? I suppose it all boils down to how good your research is. Do you use public sites like Edmunds or True Car or do you have access to other sources?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
That's exactly what I'm saying. People coming into a dealer to buy a car and don't even have $100 to their name to put a deposit on the car. A lot of people living paycheque to paycheque just looking for transportation to and from work. Many typically want something above their means.
Funny you mention a $1000 CL beater because that's what I drive. We have one nice car that my wife uses and I bought myself a $700 old Accord to drive to work in. Working in the car business taught me one thing regarding old cars. A $1000 beater will have same reliability as a $5000 used car. The $5000 car will just look better and maybe have nicer features, but for a work commuter I don't need a fancy car.
Edit add on: I've had people come onto the lot wanting one of our old big Range Rovers or old BMW 7 series. We get them in from time to time but both of these cars are notoriously unreliable and expensive to fix. Last Range Rover we sold was an 04 for about $12k. These car retailed for nearly $100k new. Same for the BMW.
I get calls from time to time from people wanting to finance them. They want to have $300/month payments. I tell them right up front that these cars are too old to finance. And if you can't afford more than $300/month then you can't afford to drive these cars as it'll cost additional $400-$500/month in maintenance to keep them on the road. So if you have $0 down and want an old luxury car then you better rethink if that's what you really want. That car can become an expensive lawn ornament pretty quickly and leave you more broke than you already are.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Right on Mike, and I thank you for your answer.
I certainly use Edmunds pricing when buying a car. But what percentage of the population knows about any of this stuff? I think it is very little. If I am talking to people and I tell them the experiences I have when buying a car...they are in disbelief. They practiacally say...you mean you don't just go in, get your tiny discount, believe what they tell you your trade is worth, and leave with a new car. I would guess less than 10% of the population would use a site like Edmunds.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Driver - my wife has that exact quote on the wall of her office.
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2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
Isellhondas said,
Brian, I realize that you hare a self appointed "expert" on how to buy cars. I know you consider the "good" stores to be the ones that cheap sell their cars.
I do not appreciate it when you try to patronize me or put words in my mouth now that you have migrated over to this forum from your usual haunts in the Prices Paid forums.
I know this is a crusade for you but I would appreciate it if you would leave me out.
Isell
I will do that if you promise to stay out of the art of the deal in that forum. A buyer who wants to save 300 or more, travel 2 or 4 hours to get there best deal is intittled to and is there decision and choice. Not yours. You know as well as I the Internet has change the game for Car buyers. Stop taken in personnal when i tell folks... Do not step into the dealerships when your ready to buy. Work online and via phone with all internet managers on pricing first etc. Your auto industry deceives and rips off enough un-educated buyers through out the year.. Let our little percentage of smart buyers have our day in the sun..
I call it like i see it in your business and life. What haunts you in your Auto business is a direct result of what your industry set up / created. Not what i do. I play by your rules. The only haunting words I heard in the prices paid forum was you telling folks how not to make your best possible deal.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
I made the switch over to Win8 from XP. Took me a few times to get Edmunds to let me post again, so for better or worse, I'm able to now.
Keeping the old XP computers for now to make sure I don't need any files from the desktop. I'm still going to use the laptop as an off line computer.
I switch last year from Xp to Win8, althou it has better features it is frustrating at times.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
Phew! I finally got caught up with this week's posts.
--Many good points were made on meeting the new 56.5 MPG requirements for 2025. Some hybrids already surpass this standard though so this is not a big deal I believe.
--A satirical piece penned by @Wolfie provoked a heated squabble on both sides
--Bashing GM again--and again continued unabated.
--Buying/selling an automobile based on monthly payments rather than the out the door price was particularly abhorrent especially when applied to consumers low FICO scores.
Big up to @Kirstie for expanding my vocabulary with the concept of "virtual hugs."
Don't know if it was discussed but the auto industry had a good month of March.
Jeep had its highest monthly sales ever. Ford sold over 70,000 F-Series trucks and Fusion saw terrific gains in March 2014.
GM sales were up 4%, with the Cruze making a rebound with a 14% increase. Not sure what happened at Cadillac but their sales were unremarkable.
By the way, the Big Three, in terms of market share for March, are: GM 16.7%; Ford 15.8%; and Toyota 14.0%. The Chrysler Group at 12.6% is not far behind.
What a joy it would be to deal with the same salesperson over a period of years. In Arizona the turnover at the car dealerships is measured in days, not weeks, let alone years. I am very loyal to people I buy things from, but they turn over so quickly in this "wonderful" sunbelt area that I rarely get the chance to prove it.
Over at Autoextremist Peter M. De Lorenzo is thinks the problem is that Cadillac is now a serious competitor to the Germans and Cadillac has priced the ATS and CTS accordingly. However,he also opines that most US consumers don't think Cadillac is "there" yet, and Cadillac has to stick large rebates and heavily subvented leases on the cars to move them, which chips away at their luxury status.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
mike, I would bet your estimate (1 in 20 or 1 in 50) is way low. Maybe not where you worked (mid level luxury), but in the overall market, there are plenty. They are just buying Kias, and other cheaper cars!
I also suspect a large percentage don't do any serious pricing research on the internet sites like this. Look at colors? Sure. maybe get as far as build and price (TMV).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
"mike, I would bet your estimate (1 in 20 or 1 in 50) is way low."
You might be right stick! Yes, I was in Lexus and Infinity and really don't know what is/was going on in the other dealerships.
Then I would revise my response to driver's question to maybe 1 on 10, then and now when you consider many buyers are marginal buyers and need to keep their monthly payments within a budget.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
"What a joy it would be to deal with the same salesperson over a period of years. In Arizona the turnover at the car dealerships is measured in days, not weeks, let alone years."
You are right, CDN! I usually hired salespeople in groups of 10-15 because we needed 30+ salesmen on staff. I put them through a 2-week training program learning the basics in car sales such as:
*meet and greet
*information gathering from the customer
*product selection by customers in the new car lots
*product. peesentation and product knowledge for each model
*use of the computer programs designed to generate completed forms
*payoff quotes
*dealership knowledge and who's who on the store
*demo drives and what routes to take
*using key trac and how to access car keys and replace them in key trac
As you can see, it took at least 2 weeks to learn this since I tended to stay away from hiring people with previous experience because they had learned bad habits and were usually untrainable.
After 2 months, I would be lucky if I had 3 salespeople left of the original 15-20.
People want to sell cars because they think the can make tons of money. That is not going to happen in today's vehicle dealerships. It takes years to build clientele with repeat business.
That's the major reason for the high turnover - they think that in 2-3 months, they will be making $100K - then when they work 50-60 hours a week and are making $1500-$2000 a month those first 2-6 months, they're gone.
Every so often I would hire and train a salesman who worked hard and. "smart" and handled customers correctly by listening and not rushing to make the sale who stuck it out. After 8-10 months, they were making $60K-$70K a year . They knew how to make bonuses and additional money in "spiffs" (mini-bonus for selling 5 cars on a weekend or selling cars in stock for more than 120 days - usually $100 - $500 a pop).
I can count the number of successful salesman on just the fingers of my 2 hands over a period of 5 years.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger