Tires, tires, tires

ashutoshsm · July 2004

Please post a review for us all, after you've used your new tires for a while.

They were on my shortlist, being as cheapa s they are, but a few reviews I read seemed to imply they wore unevenly and got quite shaky as the miles piled on.

I ended up choosing between the Goodyear F1-GS-D3 and the Toyo Proxes T1-S, and picked the Toyos. 1500 miles later, loving them - but they are noticeably more procy than those ES100!

kevin111 · July 2004

I have not put them on my car yet, but should soon. Generally, most of the reviews I have read have been quite positive. The latest reviews on Tire Rack have been very good, with uneven wear not being an issue. It seems tire noise has been the ES100's biggest complaint after wearing in the tire.

The Toyos are great tires, and would definitely be on my list if I was willing to spend more and was more widely available.

motownusa · July 2004

I own a 99 Corolla with Goodyear Integrity tires. It is ok but certainly not the quietest. My dealer told me to get Michelin if I want the least road noise but they cost a fortune. My Toy dealer quoted a price of $465. Is it worth it or are there less expensive alternative. Quietness is important for me.

sandman46 · July 2004

I put these on my small economy car and have been very happy with them. They stick like glue on wet or dry pavement and are a bit less expensive than Michelins. Give them a look see!

The Sandman :-)

imidazol97 · July 2004

I have had good results with Michelins. They are round and stay round in use. The quietness may vary with the tread. I've got 70K on my X-Ones and they're about 70% worn. They are worth the little bit extra for the quality.

jc1973 · July 2004

hi all i just bought douglas extra trac tires from walmart for my ford van does anyone know who makes them or if they are any good

driftracer · July 2004

no offense, but AFTER you bought them, isn't it a little late to worry about whether they're good or not? You're supposed to check 'em out BEFORE you spend your money...

stever · July 2004

To answer your question, Kelly-Springfield:

bretfraz Feb 11, 2004 10:26pm

Steve, Host

jc1973 · July 2004

well yeah i know but it was kinda of an emergancy situation had a blowout needed 4 tires anyway so i wen,t with those 35 per tire seemed okay

CapeCod · July 2004

I also was looking at Douglas.
The 205/55/16 size I was looking at had an
unusual tread. Two solid stripes down the middle,
Z shaped tread on one side, paw print tread on the other side. Sorry about my descriptions, I do not know the correct terms. Is there an advantage to this tread? One of my concerns is the road noise. Is there a preferred inside vs. outside when mounting. Final question... Does Walmart installation have the same lifetime rotate/balance deal if I bring in tires bought on tirerack? Most of the local tire dealers say they will mount TR tires for about $15 but with no free balance/rotate in the future which quickly eats up the TR savings. Thanks

corvette · July 2004

AFAIK they offer free lifetime rotation and balancing if you buy the premium tire mounting service, I don't think it matters if you buy your tires there or not.

kevin111 · July 2004

Capecod - they do offer lifetime balance and rotation. I am not sure what their mounting costs are, but their lifetime and rotation for all 4 tires is under $10 a tire, I believe.

kevin111 · July 2004

With the price you mentioned, I am assuming you are talking about the Micheline MXV4 Energys, which go for +$100. Great tire but pricey. They do help with gas mileage a little bit due to less role resistance. Also, they are very quiet, have a very good ride, and handle competently. You can do better for your size of tire at other tire shops or tire rack.

kevin111 · July 2004

Just had them installed, and upsized (went from 16" to 17" tires). Compared to the Pilot Sports I had before (16"), they ride better, yet handle extremely well. Have a softer sidewall than the Pilot Sports. Since I was looking for a tire that had a better ride than the Pilot Sports (even though upsizing), yet handled very competently, Great Tire!

See what happens a few thousand miles later.

ashutoshsm · August 2004

Wow - I'm loving these tires! They absolutely keep on gripping, in wet and dry. And are surprisingly comfortable for road-trips, to boot. Just got back from 1 1000-mile road trip, my first on these summer performance tires, and noticed barely any compromise in ride quality or noise compared to the TERRIBLE, Terrible (performance wise, but other wise ultra quiet) Michelin Pilot 205/60-16 stock tires that almost all Family Sedans seem to come with these days.

Yes the softer sidewall makes 'extreme' tires like the Bridgestone PP S-03 or the Kumho MX or even the Falken Azenis more desirable for hard driving, but way less suitable to road-trippping AND performance driving compared to these Toyos.

Highly recommend them to anyone who wants an excellent peforming summer tire, and is willing to live with the somewhat shorter tread life (at 3500+ miles, I can notice wear - although there is still loads of tread left, of course - they just don't look brand new any more!) I fully expect over 15K miles, and perhaps even 20K (two summers for me) from these Toyos.

ruking1 · August 2004

Just goes to show there is a lot of variation.

I switched from Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar tires after 56,000 miles and treadwear of app 3.5/32 wear remaining: to, Toyo Proxes T1's.(8,000 miles ago)

1. SOTP's tells me that the Toyo's are app less 5% less capable in the dry traction department. F1's grip ferociously and are easily in the top three in the dry traction department!

2. It is hugely better (30%) in the wet traction department (Toyo).

3.Water resistence is night and day and I have driven both in driving rains and on this parameter there is almost no comparison (easily 40%better; Toyo).

4. While neither tire I would recommend in snow, I have driven the GY E F1 SC's is high altitude snow showers!

Not for the feign of heart. (I am guessing Toyo)

5. The GY's are about the BEST (of any high performance street tire) in cornering stability.

6. GY's are about the best (of any high performance street tire) in steering response.

7./8./Toyo takes the Ride and noise comfort parameters hands down.

9.In the treadwear department, while I think Toyo will do better; (220 vs 280 utoq) time will tell in my case.

Looking at all the parameters, I am satisfied so far with the mix.

ashutoshsm · August 2004

I knew I was sacrificing better (dry) grip and lateral stability at the limit when I opted for the Toyos over the Goodyear F1s - and that I stood to gain in terms of ride comfort and wet traction. This was accurate.

Otherwise, the construction and, indeed, apeparance, of the two tires is so similar that I feel the surprising high longevity of your Goodyear's *may* to some extent translate to my Toyos! This would be icing on the cake!

Out of curiosity - what car do you drive, and how hard do you drive? What size tires do you use? Did you rotate often? Did you unmount and remount the tires at all (since cross rotation is impossibly on these, and the 'outside' remains the 'outside' edge of the tread with fron-back same-side rotation?

I plan to rotate mine this weekend (front-back same-side) at 3500 miles, and every 3-4000 thereafter (twice for every oil change - isn't that weird!), and use them on 7" wide lightweight aftermarket cast aluminium wheels, on terrible city roads (DC Metro) on my 3100-ish lbs FWD Mazda 6i. And they're (all) 225/45-17. Does treadwear vary with profile and/or size across the Toyo Proxes line?

ruking1 · August 2004

and I get 56k? Would you say there is some variation?

Car is a 2001 Z06 Corvette. An anomoly also is since front and rear are different sizes, (265 40 17 and 295 35 18) and tires are assymetrical, I can only rotate left to right and right to left. Using calipers, the data showed the left side wore just a tad faster than the right, so at app 50k I did my first rotation left to right and right to left: to even out the wear.

The Toyo anomoly, (I thought long and hard about this, but the one 50k mile rotation was the tip off) since the tires are directional AND different sizes that each position is (pretty much) non rotational!

In so far as driving, I have seen the 12 western states and BC CN. While most runs and trips are shorter, I did one on one 4 July weekend of 963 miles that took 10 hrs of driving time San Jose CA area to Vancover BC. Still got 26 mpg with the AC roaring. (on GY E F1 SC's by the way) So far after app 8,000 miles I can tell no difference in gas mileage. The ride and noise levels are much more comfortable!

PCH and all up and down the CA coast( Highway 1, 101 etc) has to be some of the best roads for the Corvette. Some would say the Corvette was made for precisely these kinds of roads!

kyfdx · August 2004

side to side... You just have to remount them each time. Not worth it, in my opinion.. Did the front and rear tires wear at the same rate on the Vette? On my car, the rears wear almost twice as fast.

regards,
kyfdx

ruking1 · August 2004

I understand that the wheels themselves would change positions, but that would not changed the rotation direction of the tire, unless I now wear them inside out?

The rears wore a tad bit faster. I am guessing that is the reason for the difference in size of 295mm (35/18) vs fronts of 265mm (40/17) If you run the car smoothly the wear tends to even out due to more contact rubber on the rear. So in fact the fronts had 3.5/32's and the rears 3/32 ins left.

kyfdx · August 2004

If you roll your tire around to the other side of the car, it will now be rolling opposite of the original direction...

ruking1 · August 2004

Yes that was as I visualized, but at same time that would go against having a V directional tire? i.e., you would now roll a reversed V?

So in fact to run this tire on the opposite side you would have to dismount from one rim and remount on opposite side rim and run this tire "inside out"?

kyfdx · August 2004

You would have to remount the tire on the wheel.. well, both tires.. Think of it as sliding the tire down to the other end of the axle.. On a right side tire, the outside of the wheel faces right.. If you want to slide it to the left side, the wheel has to face to the left, but the tire stays facing forward.

kyfdx · August 2004

recommend against rotating directional tires, except front to back.. and if you have different sizes front/rear, then you can't even do that. The only problems with them are uneven wear. Usually the main drive wheel on the rear will wear faster.

ruking1 · August 2004

Got it, thanks for getting me out of my 50,000 mile faster left side wear conundrum! At that time and mileage frame, I will take 3 measurements per tire with a caliper and do the mount/dismount i.e. run inside out (if needs be)and rebalance.

When the time comes, I will contact Toyo for their take on this issue.

Actually the issue surfaced on one or two Corvette specific sites, and it was the folks who track cars, (motivation: get MAX wear on their tires) that were able to shed light on assymetrical tire rotation; left to right and right to left. As you know, a further design difference in the F1 SC tires is the lug design is different left to right and or right to left so a dismount/ opposite side remount will have no value for the tire and in this case is counter or against the design of the tires, unlike the Toyo T1's which is an aggressive V design. I can visualize the dismount opposite side remount working.

kyfdx · August 2004

What kind of car do you have, that you get over 50K miles? Or did I miss that info earlier?

driftracer · August 2004

like many others nowadays, don't have a perfectly assymetrical tread pattern like the old Goodyear gatorbacks or the Bridgestone RE-71 - because of this, you can't just dismount and remount and run a right side tire on the left side - it WILL affect handling.

I suppose you could "flip" them, but many high performance, directinoal tires don't like to be run the "opposite" way that they've been run.

ashutoshsm · August 2004

You must drive quite sedately to get 50K+ miles on your RWD muscle' car

Or you just got a really anomalous (unGodly good) set of tires.

I know people with M3's and similar cars wearing right through Toyo T1-S in 10K -15K. The Goodyear's I'm comparing these to are the basolutely brand-new F1-GS-D3 - I thought these had not been in existence long enough to warrant a tested 56K life! Perhaps you had the 'milder' F1 GS-D or GS-D2 (forerunners)?

I don't 'track' my FWD Mazda 6 either, but have been known to spend time on some weekends dodging orange construction warning signs

kyfdx · August 2004

If the tire has a different tread design on the outside and inside of the tire, AND it is directional, then it will only be good for one side of the car.. There will actually be two models.. a left side tire and a right side tire.
AND if you have different sizes front/rear, then your tires will only be good for the corner of the car that they are installed on.

BMW recommends NOT rotating their tires at all, for whatever thats worth.

regards,
kyfdx

ashutoshsm · August 2004

Quick comparison of the Goodyear F1-GS-D3 and the Toyo Proxes T1-S shows them to be almost identical, or at least very similar - and definitely directional, but symmetrical about the central axis (left/right) - leading me to understand they CAN be flipped left-right and remounted, long as the directionality is respected!

Am I missing something?

ruking1 · August 2004

Sedate? NO! Smooth? I certainly try!

Goodyear actually designed the Goodyear Eagle F1 SC (Supercars) for the 2001 Corvette Z06. So since manufacturing started in 2000, (while I do not really know the chronology before this) they did come on my 00 manufactured 2001 Z06.

You are correct that the D3's are a later version.

One of the reasons for not getting the D3's was lack of OEM tire sizes for my application. I understand they are a fantastic balanced tire! Not to mention they are far cheaper than the GY F1 SC's.

ruking1 · August 2004

It occured to me some other folks might want the resolution to this issue. So I called, Toyo technical support 1-800-442-8696.

They said no concerns or problems in putting the left tire on the right and the right on the left (1. GIVEN the directional arrow going the right way or GIVEN) i.e., 1b. dismount and remount) (and size difference in front and rear.

So I don't misquote them: I did say Toyo Proxes T1's 265 45 17 fronts and 295 35 18 rears.(different size front than rear)

Left to right rotation (and vice versa) dismount and remount to the opposite side.

My take: Obviously you can and probably should rotate them if you have the same sized tires all around, if the impediment is not a concern.

Seems to me the only impediment is the cost for the demount and remount for rotation. (6.50-15 dollars; 26-60 dollars on up)

kyfdx · August 2004

Depending on how your tires wear, I'd be more inclined to just do the rear tires, rather than the front. With the rear, the main drive wheel is always wearing faster, and by rotating you may get significantly more mileage out of the pair. On the front, especially on high performance cars, the inside of the tire will wear faster than the outside. Although intuitively this seems like a perfect reason to rotate side to side, the increase in vibration while waiting for the tires to "even out" might not be worth it.

regards,
kyfdx

ruking1 · August 2004

I would concur! There is that element of risk and if you just spent the dismount remount and balance fees, that would have been wasted.

I had absolutely no problems when I did that with the assymetrical GY E F1 SC's!!

But then again, I didn't have 4 variables 1. dismount remount and balance 2. directional tires! 3. I did have dead on alignment and balance also. :)4. extra cost for an indeterminate result.

driftracer · August 2004

It depends on whether you have the variation that are strictly for the right or left sides of the car, or the ones that can be interchanged - both models of the Goodyear F1 were available, and ended up in both configurations on Corvettes between 2001 and 2003.

If your tires don't have a "right (or left) side use only" raised message on the tire, don't worry about it.

micweb · August 2004

Sorry for the delay in replying. I didn't subscribe to this thread and missed a lot of posts.

I now have a VW Golf. The Goodyear LS tires on it are reasonably quiet, but I wouldn't mind quieter tires (the Kumho 716's on the Scion are definitely quieter). Since the OEM tires are pretty good, I don't think I'll do a take-off, but when I do replace them, I might consider Bridgestone Turanzas which are supposed to be very quiet, and higher quality than the 716's. A "touring" class tire, but apparently good in the rain. See the Connor thread with Tirerack advice.

The Goodrich Traction T/A's on the Neon grip the best of any tires I have had, with the best "turn in" if that is the right term to use. The sidewalls are stiff and it's like I have faster steering than before. However, the Tractions (these are V rated) are much noisier than the other tires. Not horribly noisy, but if noise is important to you (as it is to me, on my smaller, less well-soundproofed cars) then you may want to consider the 716's or, if rumor is true, the Turanzas.

stever · August 2004

Are the local franchise shops in your area touting nitrogen tire fills?

Seems like a nice profit center.

Steve, Host

ruking1 · August 2004

Thanks for your heads up! I tell you there is so much choice even in just the H rating that on any given day I want to try all of them or have 5 sets and to change them at whim!

Back to reality, I have almost the same take on the OEM GY LS-H's. I don't know if this is related or not but the Goodyear tires F1 SC and LS-H are both noiser tires than almost any of the competitors I have been considering. Consequently, I would not rate either tire high marks on ride comfort also.

I like the design and ratings of the BFG Traction T/A, but have to admit the Kumho Ecsta HP4-716 are an excellent bang for the buck set of tires!!! GY GT HR has also been rated highly but I get the feeling GY probably hasn't done much in the ride comfort department.

I'd give a hearty thumbs up for the Bridgestone Turanza's. My BIL had them on a BMW 330I. He swapped them for the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S, but as you know the A/S are in another leaque!

As much as the GY LS-H's have been vilified, I am on track for a 85k-96k mile run. (10/32start- 2/32 legally bald with 8/32 of treat wear) This is both from a brand new perspective and also a 36,000 mile evaluation. VW and GY must have messed up and given me a stellar set of GY and VW messed up by delivering almost a perfect alignment and dead on balance of the tires.

ashutoshsm · August 2004

Although I know people who autocross and track their vehicles regularly, no one is actually using the Nitrogen refill (to my knowledge!)

A lot of aftermarket whels are now out with dual valve stems to make purging/refilling with Nitrogen that much easier.

I know Pep Boys is one of the stores that offers this, but there seem to be none in the DC area. And almost no one seems to care to use this 'trick either'. Think they're spreading FUD (or at least great advertising) making it more prevalent in other areas?

ashutoshsm · August 2004

... Whew! So those weren't the GY F1-GS-D3! I'm sure the F1-SC were different enough to justify the mileage.

The D3 and the Toyo T1-S have the same advertised Treadwear rating of 280 (not that means ANYTHING AT ALL when compared across manufacturers, but still!)

kyfdx · August 2004

Tire Discounters in the Cincinnati area built their whole marketing campaign around it.

http://www.tirediscounters.com/

stever · August 2004

Your post over in Ask Conner was why I asked, Kyfdx :-)

Steve, Host

kyfdx · August 2004

Yeah, I figured.. that is why I posted the link.

regards,
kyfdx

imidazol97 · August 2004

Since air is 80% nitrogen approximately, what's the big deal about filling the tire with 100% N2?

Do they evacuate the tire with a vacuum pump after mounting it and then refill with N2? If not, the tire still have oxygen and other minor gases in it.

The Tire Discounters group has had 'silly' advertisements for a long time. Just like a carpet guy in this area who finally gave up the ghost and disappeared to be replaced by a lady who screams the ads for the store.

This is another in a series from a tire store I don't care much for. I liked NTB owned by Sears in the end.

stever · August 2004

The ad seems misleading to me since properly inflated tires won't be any more economical whether they have air or N₂ in them.

Steve, Host

kyfdx · August 2004

I think the idea is... your tires STAY properly inflated longer.. since most people never check them.

imidazol97 · August 2004

inflated longer? They already have 80% nitrogen in them. I'll have to look up the actual percentage in the air at sea level.

I doubt the 12% oxygen or whatever it is deteriorates properly build tires from the inside.

It's a gimmick that many people would fall for. AND they inflate them FREE when you overspend for 4 of their tires along with FREE alignment at the local chain doing that.

I put it up there with unscrupulous car salesmen. I know that belongs in another forum...

kyfdx · August 2004

Don't you check your tires for inflation pressure? Why? Because, with temperature, inflation varies and eventually tires lose air. If by using nitrogen, you do away with the variation and they lose less air, then they stay inflated to the proper pressure longer. It is marketing hype, but in theory, it works.. I doubt racing teams use it for no reason... Of course, that doesn't mean it makes a difference for passenger cars, but the theory is sound.

regards,
kyfdx

imidazol97 · August 2004

"Because, with temperature, inflation varies and eventually tires lose air. If by using nitrogen, you do away with the variation and they lose less air, then they stay inflated to the proper pressure longer."

Have you checked the temperature expansion coefficient for Nitrogen vs normal air? I doubt it's noticeable. I'll look it up when there's time.

stever · August 2004

since most people never check them

Very true... I'm lax about that as well.

Steve, Host

Tires, tires, tires

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