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Toyota Sequoia
This topic is a continuation of Topic 3256....
Toyota Sequoia - NEW SUV - II. Please continue
these discussions here. Thanks!
Front Porch Philosopher
SUV, Pickups, & Aftermarket and Accessories Host
Toyota Sequoia - NEW SUV - II. Please continue
these discussions here. Thanks!
Front Porch Philosopher
SUV, Pickups, & Aftermarket and Accessories Host
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Comments
1)Towing not recommended until after 2000 mile break-in period
2)When towing "do not exceed 45mph."
3)sway control device necessary for towing over 2000 pounds
None of these issues were mentioned by our dealer, who knew that we were buying the Sequoia as a tow vehicle for appx. 5000# horse-trailer.
Anybody talked to Toyota about these issues?
1) 500 mile break-in before towing
2) same "do not exceed 45mph"
3) same way control device recommendation
Regarding your issues, #1 seems odd, but #2 and #3 seem normal:
1) LC owner's manual also says 500 miles for the break-in period, not 2000 miles.
2) I don't believe the 45 mph issue relates to the inability of the vehicle to tow adequately at higher speeds; more of a driving safety recommendation. I suspect the manual for any towing vehicle would have a similar recommendation in order to avoid or limit the manufacturer's liability. The LC manual says that, because swaying increases as speed increases, exceeding 45 mph may cause loss of control. I have towed my 2-horse trailer (with one horse in it) with my LC at 60-65 quite comfortably.
3) Sway bars (aka load leveling bars). You WILL want to get these, as they will make the ride a lot smoother for your horse(s). Any horse trailer dealer in your area ought to have them. I forget how much they cost; on the order of $100-150, if I remember correctly. You'll also want to have trailer brakes installed. Again, any horse trailer dealer ought to be able to do this.
Hope this helps.
I have been taught that the faster you tow in any vehicle, the faster things happen...
Overall it confirmed everything I have been saying about the Sequoia and should help a prospective buying go down his checklist of things he needs his SUV to do.
There are definite "weaknesses" noted in the article but then no one should believe that the Sequoia is the ultimate SUV anyway. There are some strenghts as well, especially if you are new to driving a 4wd in adverse conditions.
-Di
;>
As for trailer brakes, sure, they are very helpful, but they are really completely irrelevant when it comes to listing maximum towing ability.
I, for one, would be very upset with Toyota and my dealer if I had to return the vehicle to the dealer, waste a day, and pay anything additional for optional sway bars.
As a comparison, I believe the Toyota Sienna will tow 2000 pounds or something close to that without any optional equipment (other than a hitch).
Toyota -- shame on you.
I'd be very interested to hear real life reports on how the Sequ performs with heavy towing.
By the way, the same site states that the Sienna can tow 2000 pounds, 3500 max.
Wow, a full-sized SUV capable of towing only 2000 pounds off the lot.
That is really pathetic and, more importantly, potentially dangerous too.
Keep in mind, a large number of things in your book were written by lawyers. These are the same type of lawyers who are responsible for notes like "warning, coffee is hot and can cause extreme burns"
Brakes are required in many states and are a good idea on anything that weighs over 1500 pounds. I actually have disc brakes on both axles of my trailer. That is my choice and it is most likely overkill.
Finally, one member here has once again demonstrated that they know nothing about one of our products. The Sienna is not a full sized SUV. It is a mid sized minivan built on a unibody platform. The standard towing capacity is 2000 pounds but most are built with a tow prep package the raises the capacity to 3500 pounds by the addition of a heavy duty radiator and transmission cooler.
My point was that the Sienna, a puny, 6 cyl minivan, has the same towing capacity off the lot as the full-sized 8 cyl Sequ does off the lot. A mere 2000 pounds.
Plus, I don't think Chrysler, Ford or GM recommends any additional sway bars for towing over 2000 pounds, or any other poundage limit for that matter -- and all of these full-sized vehicles can tow significantly more than Sequ in the first place.
Cliffy, sometimes, most times?, your bias simply gets in the way of plain common sense.
And, finally, it is NOT me.
I quote from Toyota's web site.
Sienna -- 2000 pounds off the lot towing capacity, 3500 with additional equipment.
Sequ -- 2000 pounds off the lot towing capacity, 6200 (4 wheel drive version) with additional equipment.
PATHETIC.
BTW, you're right about other mfrs. When I bought my 94 JGC (rated to tow 6500), I was issued the same recommendations by Chrysler about sway bars and trailer brakes. Same with my 91 GM product (which I got rid of promptly upon the expiration of the warranty).
*Your vehicle may require additional special equipment to tow the maximum trailer weight listed here. Maximum trailer ratings are calculated assuming a standard equipped base vehicle plus driver. The weight of optional equipment, passengers, cargo, and required trailering equipment will reduce the maximum trailer weight. Trailer tongue weight should be 10-15% of total loaded trailer weight. See the GMC Trailering Guide for details.
I guess GM has lawyers too.
1) JGC is at best a mid-sized SUV. It is not intended to do any serious towing.
2) 12,000 pounds is some serious poundage. This probably requires the diesel engine that is offered on the Yukon.
3) I have seen nothing that states, other than the "optional" towing hitch, that anything else is required to tow the STANDARD towing weight for a Suburban, which is 7,700 pounds by the way. Of course, if you option it up, you can go up from there. No lawyers there.
4) The more I listen to you, the more I think you really are just a bald face liar, just like the Tundra owners claimed you were in the Edmunds forum.
Want to wager some bucks on whether GM requires or even recommends optional sway bars to tow the 7,700 standard towing weight with a Suburban?
I'm in for whatever you are willing to put up.
You have to admit, that is pretty funny.
I bet you Cliffy ain't to happy some of his prospective customers discovered that little footnote.
3All figures reflect the weight of occupants, equipment and cargo. For each model, a Class III or IV receiver hitch and sway control device are either required or recommended additional equipment. See your Toyota dealer for details. \
Note the use of the word "recommended". It does not way anything about being required. If you plan on towing a large trailer with any vehicle, most trailer experts will recommend that you have a sway control devise. I have chosen to ignore this recommendation for my own towing but I understand that I do so at my own peril.
I have a hitch on my Tundra that is rated for towing 5000 pounds by simply mounting a ball. I choose to follow the manufacturers recommendation and have added a frame mounted hitch.
Why do we have to go through this? What is the point?
Oh yes, and when it says to see your dealer for details, that is exactly what I will tell you.
Be pretty tough to tow without one of those!!!!
What a joke.
6200 pounds to begin with is pretty pathetic. I, for one, would never attempt to tow close to maximum rated poundage. That brings it down to at least 5,000 pounds of comfortable towing poundage WITH all the extras -- meaning sway bars.
What a joke!!!!!
Man o man, I'm sorry. I can't stop laughing. This is better than the Giants win over the 'Skins yesterday.
Load leveling "spreads the weight" in effect beyond the hitch to the vehicle and trailer. The rear wheel sag can be taken out and ride height and handling restored (except for the extra weight).
Sway control help keep the trailer from, well...swaying back and forth.
Both can be used.
If you both are towing this kind of weight trailer brakes are important as well. Especially on the shorter wheelbased LC. The LC could be manhandled by a 5000lb trailer. If your trailer starts to push your rear out in slippery conditions or the trailer starts whipping the rear you need the breaks to save your life.
The Sequoia, despite being listed with a lower towing capacity, should be a better tow vehicle because of the longer wheelbase (it is longer I believe?).
Most of the pros in my state who tow use all three on thier trailers and never tow with a short wheel based vehicle at weights around 5000lb or more......thats asking for problems.
As to the load leveling/sway bars, I have heard the terms used interchangeably. Based on your description, if there is a difference between the two, I have load leveling bars. The other people I know who have bars have only what you call load leveling bars, and no one I know has a vehicle or trailer configured for 2 sets of bars (4 bars total). Could you please describe where, if you already have load leveling bars on, you would put the sway bars?
The price looks to be on the Limited about 2500 below MSRP? The only dealer that seems to be on this board is Diane. Any body elso want to make a deal?
Wouldn't the low numbers on the Seq have something to do with the fact that 4.7L engine is the smallest in its class?
Seq - 4.7L - 240hp 315 torque
Tahoe - 5.3L - 285hp 325 torque
Expedition - 5.4L - 260hp 350 torque
Suburban - 6.0L - 315hp 365 torque
Towing ability starts with Torque. I think the Seq needs a bigger engine to properly compete, considering its size and weight.
I know the 4.7 is the only DOHC of the group, but the numbers still don't lie.
These are two bars on either side of the hitch connected to the tongue of the trailer and help distribute the weight of the tongue on the rear of the vehicle thus preventing the "V" look.
Sway Bar:
This is one bar connected to the hitch and tongue of the trailer. It dampens the ability of the trailer to sway/jacknife etc.
I would not tow any vehicle over 2k lbs without breaks on the trailer, leveling bars and a sway bar. Toyota is stating this as a common sense and safety fact.
If any one needs more technical details on the above devices I will happy to provide it.
P.S. When comparing towing capabilities, remember the Sequoia has a 4.10 gear ratio rear end. Compare other vehicles towing capacity with the same gear ratio.
There is a trade off here though. If you beef up the suspension for towing, you create a harsher ride when empty. Its a balancing act. At 6500/6200 pounds, the Sequoia can handle most trailerable boats, most travel trailers (short of a 5th wheel) and any car hauling duties while retaining a fairly smooth and comfortable ride.
This is not to say you can tow anything. Trade offs do happen. There certainly are trailers you would not want to tow behind a Sequoia. I think Toyota was looking at capturing the maximum number of customer's trailering needs without sacrificing ride comfort. I think they did a fairly good job.
Finally, I would not hesitate to get up very close to the maximum trailer weight. After feeling what 4200 pounds feel like behind my Tundra, I would have a lot of confidence adding another 2000 pounds behind the Sequoia.
The Sequoia is made of 60% North American parts and 40% Japanese. Again, the engine and transmission are Japanese built.
clearly, this is not the best choice if you are looking to tow anything of great mass. The powerplant in the Toyota is a smooth efficient engine made for light duty. It is not a truck engine!!
The saying is still true, there is no substitute for CID. I bite my tongue saying this, but the engine/transmission set-up offered in GM products are really designed for towing, and as a result, probably the best choice for this application.
I would be very nervous getting close to the maximum rating. Variables, such as wind, hills, cargo, swaying resonance, etc. can easily put you over the limit and cause out of control situations.
Many factors must be considered for towing, e.g.,
a change of rear gearing from 3.73 to 4.10 with GM (a $50 option) increases the tow rating by 1,100 pounds to 8,800 pounds.
FYI: GM 1/2 ton products offer three types suspensions -- two are self leveling. The third is standard on low-priced base models. None of them increase the tow rating.
First, the truck had a 4.6L engine rated 210HP and 290 torque. The towing capacity was 7700lbs. When towing with the trailer empty or full, acceleration was fine on level surfaces but strained on sloped surfaces. Even with only one horse in the trailer, we could often only go max 45-50mph over mountain passes with the engine fully revved. I always wished I had more power--especially if I felt like I was holding up traffic.
Second, wheel base is key for towing safely. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. As soon as you have to brake or maneuver suddenly you'll know why. This happens more than you think because even if you leave enough room between you and the vehicle ahead of you on the road, others are always pulling in front of you and braking because they don't want to follow a trailer in tow-- same thing happens to big-rig drivers. For this reason, you should seriously re-consider trailering anything over 2000lbs with short wheelbased vehicles like 4runners, Cherokees, Explorers, etc. Sure, they may have just enough power and sufficient suspensions, but your safety will be greatly compromised. All the horse-related magazines we researched prior to our purchase emphasized this fact.
Third, most people who regularly tow agree that a manufacturers maximum tow rating is just that -- a maximum limit. A comfortable limit is probably more like 60-70% of the max. For this reason, when my wife and I had our first child we took the opportunity to trade in our truck for a 2000 Suburban (285HP, 325torque). Why a Suburban for 2 adults and a baby? We needed a SUV with a large wheelbase and more power since I always felt like we were pushing the truck's limit even though we technically were within its limits. The Suburban with 4.10 rear-end was rated 8800lbs and pulled our trailer like a dream. I couldn't believe the difference an extra 75hp and 35 torque made. Plus the Autoride and rear-leveling suspension was extraordinary. One could hardly tell a trailer was even behind.
We no longer have horses, so we sold the Suburban (very good resale) and purchased something smaller (an MDX). The Sequoia was of some interest to us, but since we don't have any towing needs the MDX suited us better. As our family grows, a Sequoia may be in our future down the road. As far as the Sequoia is concerned, I would never pull more than a ski boat or 2 horse trailer with it. It simply does not have the power or wheelbase in my opinion. This opinion stems from a lot of research, towing experience, and a strong safety bias (my wife towed the horse trailer most of the time by herself so safety was of utmost concern).
Finally, I think this forum is lucky to have an individual like yossarian participating. I personally valued many of his opinions (both positive & negative) in making my next vehicle decision. Too many others have shown little tolerance towards anything but positive affirmations. This doesn't help buyers make informed decisions. I think we can all learn a lesson from wmquan who has set an exemplary tone on the MDX forum for unbiased discussion. He is willing to consider and discuss pleasant and unpleasant attributes of his purchase without the need to defend it as the perfect suv. The Sequoia is a great vehicle and will fit the bill perfectly for many. Happy driving.
The Sequoia is well suited to light duty towing (which is more than most people ever do), is big enough for most family applications, is set up for icy and wet conditions, should perform quite well off road and is relatively well mannered and luxurious on road. I know this sets me up to be blasted so fire away.
Ditto when comparing SUV wheelbase?
To put things into perspective, I am interested by the Seq as a possible replacement for my wife's Expedition, but want to find any shortcomings to be able to make a better decision. That is why I am bringing up the issues that concern me. Not to be a smartass, but as one wise man previously posted here, if all you do is praise the vehicle on this site, the purpose has changed from 'information gathering' to 'fan club'. I hate fan clubs.
Its sounded like you said that most people will not need to tow more than the Seq can handle anyway. How do you know that?
Going from personal experience, I had a 97 F150 with the small V8 (4.6L). The hp and torque was comparable to the Seq 4.7. I had a lot of trouble towing the same size boat with that engine, compared to the 5.4 that is in our Expedition now. The difference is major.
Example: When on the highway and driving thru a deep valley, you would have to get up enough speed on the way down in order to not run out of juice on the way back up. With the 5.4, you can sometimes forget you are even towing the boat thru the same valley.
I would NEVER buy an Expedition with the 4.6 in it. I have the same concerns about the 4.7
(i) he lies or materially stretches the truth (such as the Sequoia has no foot rest for the drivers' left foot and the driver will be very uncomfortable on long drives, to name one of many inaccuracies),
(ii) he takes exception to either Toyota or a dealer making a profit (I do not work in the automobile industry and never buy a vehicle without hardball negotiation and making sure I got the best deal possible, but I do understand the forces of supply and demand),
(iii) he makes bizarre posts like the post in number 16 above (where is states “the Siena can tow 2000 pounds, 3500 max. Wow, a full-sized SUV capable of towing only 2000 pounds off the lot”), and then gets mad that someone reads it as written. Maybe he meant something else, but let's work on our English so people understand what you are trying to say, and
(iv) when he takes lawyerly language regarding recommendations and deduces that these are requirements (everyone knows that this type of language is meant to limit the liability of Toyota should someone sue them, and all car companies do it (or should do it)).
Finally, I own a Sequoia, but that doesn’t mean I don’t want to hear honest opinions either positive or negative about this vehicle. Why else would I read this board? I honestly do want to hear the negatives about this vehicle. It does me no good to be unaware of its shortcomings. I just want to see information presented in an unbiased, factual manner, not someone with a childish “gottcha” attitude that spins tales full of half-truths. I have never objected to any other posters negative comments, because they are generally based on facts and well-reasoned. If you look back you will notice that when an objection is made to Yoss’s inaccuracies he will not address his errors (or intentionally misleading statements), but rather he changes the subject, or he attacks the poster calling them “pathetic” or makes bizarre statements like equating the Seq. with a Hyundai.
In sum, reading Yoss’s comments is often like listening to Gore’s lawyers spin their story. I try to ignore it, but sometimes its difficult.
I also want to comment on your observation about how much most people need to tow. My statement that the Sequoia is sufficient for most people's needs is based on observation and nothing more. Take a serious look at what is being towed on todays roads. You will see a large number of "trailer boats" and small to mid sized travel trailers and the occasional car trailer. Perhaps I am making an assumption that since people don't tow more, they don't need to handle more but I think that is a fair assumption. I know of few "trailer boats" that exceed 5000 pounds and most come in around 3000 or less. I am not as familiar with travel trailers but I must assume that those also fall into the under 5000 pound range since I normally see them behind 1/2 ton trucks.
Now, if you have special trailering needs, don't buy the Sequoia. If you need a 5th wheel, get a crew cab 1 ton Chevy. If you regularly tow a 26 foot cabin cruiser, get the 3/4 ton Suburban.
I have already posted my personal reactions to towing a 4200 pound boat with the 4.7 V8 and you are welcome to ask me again. You will get an honest reaction.
I'm not trying to be combative here nor a cheerleader. I am trying to point out that many people seem to get very worked up over red herring issues. If the ability to tow 7000 pounds is important to you, then the 6200 capacity of the Sequoia is a big deal. If you are looking to tow 5000 pounds, I think you would be making a mistake in writing off this vehicle based on some of the comments posted here.
2) I found the left foot area in the Sequ to be uncomfortable for me, but I am tall with a long in-seam.
3) I was hammered unrelentingly for stating that the 2d row seat on the left side didn't flip and fold like the right side. I said this might be inconvenient to some. I was called a liar for posting this, only to be corrected by some owner later on stating that you had to go through a couple of steps to get it to fold. The salesman I was dealing with had no idea how to do it, and neither did I.
4) Some person on this board stated that the Sequ Owner's Manual stated that the Sequ could tow up to 2000 pounds, beyond that, she needed optional sway bars. She stated that this was confirmed by her dealer. Consequently, the Sienna and the Sequ have the same exact "off-the-dealer-lot without optional equipment" towing rating -- 2000 pounds. What is incorrect with that statement?
5) I still believe the Sequ A-Trac system is different than the LC's, other than having to push a button to turn it on. The LC's system is virtually transparent. I don't believe the Sequ's is. I offered to place a wager with Cliffy on this, but he hasn't accepted yet.
6) A 6200 max tow rating is absurd for a vehicle this size. An Explorer, for example, is rated at over 6,600 pounds with the 5.0 liter engine.
7) I still believe that there is no way a 4 foot wide piece plywood will fit flat in the back of the Sequ. I would love to know whether it would.
8) I think the Sequ is a great vehicle. But maybe not so great at $45k.
9) Profit is a great thing. But to claim a $45k full sized vehicle can tow 6200 pounds, and then equip the vehicle with a class III tow hitch only to drop a footnote stating that optional sway bars are either required or recommended (it doesn't say which) is pathetic.
I am in the market for a Sequoia right now and am counting the days till I get one.
I'm looking far and wide trying to locate a dealer that will "deal". I have some strong leads but am a bit puzzled by the out of state tax situation.
I was hoping to save some cash by buying out of state but that looks not to be the case. Can someone clarify this issue for me?
Also does anyone know what DMV registration fees run in Southern California?
So my question with the Sequoia is does this just happen with the optional limited EJ (6 CD) stereo, or does it also happen with the DJ (JBL 10 speaker Premium) stereo that is standard in the limited and optional in the SR5? And does it happen with the standard 6 speaker SR5 stereo? Has anyone tested this? Are these premium radios really bad deals?