Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

isellhondas · January 2015

roadburner said:
@‌isellhondas
A friend is looking for a car for her son, one of the vehicles she is looking at is a 2004 CRV. Anything to watch out for? I steered her towards the car because I thought it would be the best choice based on how much she had to spend.

Nope, no trouble areas on those. We still have the 2003 we bought new.

Higher resale values than any other cars I can think of so be aware of that. Worth it though!

Craig

stickguy · January 2015

IMO, as always with cars that old, the unit (how it was taken care of) is more important than the name. Plus, as Craig noted, you will pay a steep premium for that name.

Getting it checked out, or having records, is important on a Honda especially, because I think there are owners that believe the "needs nothing but gas" theory. and if nothing breaks, nothing gets touched.

roadburner · January 2015

isellhondas said:

roadburner said:
@‌isellhondas
A friend is looking for a car for her son, one of the vehicles she is looking at is a 2004 CRV. Anything to watch out for? I steered her towards the car because I thought it would be the best choice based on how much she had to spend.
Nope, no trouble areas on those. We still have the 2003 we bought new.

Higher resale values than any other cars I can think of so be aware of that. Worth it though!

Craig

Thanks!

henryn · January 2015

isellhondas said:

roadburner said:
@‌isellhondas
A friend is looking for a car for her son, one of the vehicles she is looking at is a 2004 CRV. Anything to watch out for? I steered her towards the car because I thought it would be the best choice based on how much she had to spend.
Nope, no trouble areas on those. We still have the 2003 we bought new.

Higher resale values than any other cars I can think of so be aware of that. Worth it though!

Craig

I almost bought a new CR-V last year. I would have, but the dealer was $1,000 higher than I wanted to pay (bottom line). His top line was exactly where it should have been, but the bottom line (due to a dealer add-ons and bogus charges like inventory tax) was $1,000 too much.

A 1 or 2 year old CR-V goes for more than the brand new one, so that was out. And a 2005 CR-V would have cost me as much as I wound up paying for the 2005 Tahoe. And that Tahoe cost just about exactly twice as much when new! Yes, used Hondas have ridiculous resale value. Which is very good if you already own one, but very bad if you're thinking of buying one.

graphicguy · January 2015

henryn said:

isellhondas said:

roadburner said:
@‌isellhondas
A friend is looking for a car for her son, one of the vehicles she is looking at is a 2004 CRV. Anything to watch out for? I steered her towards the car because I thought it would be the best choice based on how much she had to spend.
Nope, no trouble areas on those. We still have the 2003 we bought new.

Higher resale values than any other cars I can think of so be aware of that. Worth it though!

Craig

I almost bought a new CR-V last year. I would have, but the dealer was $1,000 higher than I wanted to pay (bottom line). His top line was exactly where it should have been, but the bottom line (due to a dealer add-ons and bogus charges like inventory tax) was $1,000 too much.

A 1 or 2 year old CR-V goes for more than the brand new one, so that was out. And a 2005 CR-V would have cost me as much as I wound up paying for the 2005 Tahoe. And that Tahoe cost just about exactly twice as much when new! Yes, used Hondas have ridiculous resale value. Which is very good if you already own one, but very bad if you're thinking of buying one.

Inventory tax? Did you ask the dealer which government regulatory agency was responsible for levying that?

graphicguy · January 2015

driver100 said:

graphicguy said:
I think there's a luxury car buyer shift. The BMW and Benz marques are moving away from the sp;forty aspect of their mainstream lux cars and Cadillac is adding the performance that those brands abandoned. Just hearing drive and Mike talk about their E class, that seems readily apparent. Two different kinds of buyers.

Maybe Cadillac abandoned that demographic too soon. Maybe BMW and Mercedes know where their market is going (softer, cushier). Nothing wrong with their approach. But, Cadillac seems to be hell bent on sticking with the performance luxury product.

They've done a really good job with the product. They compete well with anything in their segments...especially the ATS and the CTS, in whatever guise you can find them.

Snap up theses cars at the prices they're charging, because I can't imagine this is going to last much longer. The market will notice. Doesn't happen very often....great car, exceedingly well built, great materials, great driving dynamics, ground breaking (and functional) tech, can cruise with the best of them, can rock with the best of them. Styling is subjective, but I don't know if there are any better looking cars in the segment these Caddies compete in.

I don't know of any other manufacturer whose warranty is better....with all maintenance included (BMW maybe?) for 4 years. My dealership is as nice as any I've been in, including Lexus (quite a turnaround from several years ago).

If they got my attention, as an amateur car buff and higher end car shopper, I think they're going to be alright. Just have to stay the course.
GG, heres the average age of luxury car buyers, The average Lexus buyer is 61, compared with 61 for Lincoln, 54 for Mercedes, 49 for BMW, and 48 for Audi, and the average Cadillac buyer is 59. Cadillac is going for a younger customer, but my guess is bmw and Mercedes would like younger buyers, but are pushing to keep their aging fans. I think I am a good example, I like a car with great handling, but, now comfort and luxury are becoming more important to me. Mercedes attracted me more than bmw would. Cadillac seems strong on performance with a good balance of luxury, but seems to be going after a younger demographic with more performance.

Cadillac really has it's work cut out for i with bmw, Audi and Mercedes trying to grab more of the pie in that all important luxury car market. A really good article that explains it well is this one:
CAN THE NEW CADILLAC CATCH UP TO BMW

Driver....Except for the XTS, Cadillac is offering nothing in the way of a product that appeals to the Social Security crowd. Clearly, that's by design. Unfortunately, it's going to take a couple of years for people who are looking for the "sport" end of luxury sport sedans to wander into the Cadillac showrooms.

First step is to offer a product that can compete and even excel against the competition. I think they've done that.

Until they start showing up in the showroom, the "Ensure" customer will wander into their lical Caddy dealer and wander out just as quickly once they see Cadillac's new products.

driver100 · January 2015

graphicguy said:

driver100 said:

graphicguy said:
I think there's a luxury car buyer shift. The BMW and Benz marques are moving away from the sp;forty aspect of their mainstream lux cars and Cadillac is adding the performance that those brands abandoned. Just hearing drive and Mike talk about their E class, that seems readily apparent. Two different kinds of buyers.

Maybe Cadillac abandoned that demographic too soon. Maybe BMW and Mercedes know where their market is going (softer, cushier). Nothing wrong with their approach. But, Cadillac seems to be hell bent on sticking with the performance luxury product.

They've done a really good job with the product. They compete well with anything in their segments...especially the ATS and the CTS, in whatever guise you can find them.

Snap up theses cars at the prices they're charging, because I can't imagine this is going to last much longer. The market will notice. Doesn't happen very often....great car, exceedingly well built, great materials, great driving dynamics, ground breaking (and functional) tech, can cruise with the best of them, can rock with the best of them. Styling is subjective, but I don't know if there are any better looking cars in the segment these Caddies compete in.

I don't know of any other manufacturer whose warranty is better....with all maintenance included (BMW maybe?) for 4 years. My dealership is as nice as any I've been in, including Lexus (quite a turnaround from several years ago).

If they got my attention, as an amateur car buff and higher end car shopper, I think they're going to be alright. Just have to stay the course.
GG, heres the average age of luxury car buyers, The average Lexus buyer is 61, compared with 61 for Lincoln, 54 for Mercedes, 49 for BMW, and 48 for Audi, and the average Cadillac buyer is 59. Cadillac is going for a younger customer, but my guess is bmw and Mercedes would like younger buyers, but are pushing to keep their aging fans. I think I am a good example, I like a car with great handling, but, now comfort and luxury are becoming more important to me. Mercedes attracted me more than bmw would. Cadillac seems strong on performance with a good balance of luxury, but seems to be going after a younger demographic with more performance.

Cadillac really has it's work cut out for i with bmw, Audi and Mercedes trying to grab more of the pie in that all important luxury car market. A really good article that explains it well is this one:
CAN THE NEW CADILLAC CATCH UP TO BMW

Driver....Except for the XTS, Cadillac is offering nothing in the way of a product that appeals to the Social Security crowd. Clearly, that's by design. Unfortunately, it's going to take a couple of years for people who are looking for the "sport" end of luxury sport sedans to wander into the Cadillac showrooms.

First step is to offer a product that can compete and even excel against the competition. I think they've done that.

Until they start showing up in the showroom, the "Ensure" customer will wander into their lical Caddy dealer and wander out just as quickly once they see Cadillac's new products.

GG, right on! Cadillac is aiming for younger customers...bmw, Mercedes going after older customers (I'm not quite at the Ensure stage yet). It will be interesting to see which strategy works.

It seems around here at least, Cadillac is making nice headway with the younger group.

dino001 · January 2015

At this point Cadillac has a problem with aspirations not fitting the reality. They want to be considered equal to those marquis brands (as they used to be), but too many people see them more in line with Volvo, Acura. They can't act like "nothing happened", by that I mean the whole 40 years of over promising and under delivering culminated by the bailout. If they really are going after younger demographics, they need to scratch the "legacy", because for those folks it works against them. The 40-50 year old crowd doesn't even remember "good" Cadillac. All they remember, if anything, is string of disappointments by their parents (GG's mother and like), or older friends, who still had some brand affinity. With that kind of reputation, you can't price your product like equal, because you'd be laughed out, just like Phaeton was (perhaps for slightly different reasons).

When you add dealers with their old ways of doing business (lots of haggling, big discounts, oversupply, etc. - essentially not much different that their Chevrolet dealers), and marketing that totally misses the mark (the worst commercial ever with Egyptian and Indian slave owners, and Marie Antoinette figure is back - catchy tune, though), it has to underwhelm vs. the expectations.

Cadillac will wallow in underperformance territory until they completely scratch and rebuild their way of doing business. They may have the product, but that's not enough - just ask Volkswagen. A good model for them would be Lexus. When it was introduced by Toyota, the premium was rather small (cars were a lot of value for the money), but they over delivered experience (dealers, quality) at every corner, which allowed them to raise the prices over time. This is not an easy road to travel - Acura also tried, but never got quite to the same place, as it got stuck on that "aspirational" part, probably due to wrong offering - their cars are fine and they have their niche, just not exactly what the luxury crowd wanted. Lexus is much better in reading the market and adjusting (BTW, only in the US, they really can't crack Europe).

In other words - Cadillac has to UNDERpromise and OVERdeliver for years before they will really catch up with the premier league. Frankly, I don't think they are ready to do that - too much false pride, too much "but they..., but we...., but..." It will likely hover in that "also run" territory for years to come.

jsyodes · January 2015

roadburner said:
@‌isellhondas
A friend is looking for a car for her son, one of the vehicles she is looking at is a 2004 CRV. Anything to watch out for? I steered her towards the car because I thought it would be the best choice based on how much she had to spend.

Tell her to move up to the 2005, the 2005 had side airbags and VSA, which I don't believe the 2004's had, at least the 2004 LX like my mom's didn't.

Steve

nelsonf · January 2015

Well said Dino.

As a 50 year old, I love the idea of a CTS, but I just can't get past the Cadillac name plate. When I think "Caddy", I still think Old Guy Car, and salesmen with white shoes and matching belts.

In fairness, I haven't stepped into a Cadillac dealer, but I'm one of the guys that doesn't remember there being a good Caddy, and that makes me want to stay away.

Maybe a new name plate and business model is the answer.

Nelson

driver100 · January 2015

dino001 said:

When you add dealers with their old ways of doing business (lots of haggling, big discounts, oversupply, etc. - essentially not much different that their Chevrolet dealers), and marketing that totally misses the mark (the worst commercial ever with Egyptian and Indian slave owners, and Marie Antoinette figure is back - catchy tune, though), it has to underwhelm vs. the expectations.

.

LOL about the catchy tune Dino. Excellent analysis. I was just wondering if maybe Cadillac would have been better off keeping the Cadillac name for the XTS, and then use another name (say Eldarado or maybe something entirely different) for the newer sportier versions.

I guess some people associate Cadillac with older people's car, some younger people haven't even developed that image. When I was a kid, if you owned a Cadillac you had made it in life. Now, I am not sure if the image helps or hinders sales.

driver100 · January 2015

nelsonf said:
Well said Dino.

As a 50 year old, I love the idea of a CTS, but I just can't get past the Cadillac name plate. When I think "Caddy", I still think Old Guy Car, and salesmen with white shoes and matching belts.

In fairness, I haven't stepped into a Cadillac dealer, but I'm one of the guys that doesn't remember there being a good Caddy, and that makes me want to stay away.

Maybe a new name plate and business model is the answer.

Nelson

Funny nelson, we both had the same thought at the same time. I think they will get over the image problem if they keep building cars that can compete and are priced right, but, it may have been faster if they started fresh with a new nameplate.

robr2 · January 2015

nelsonf said:
Well said Dino.

As a 50 year old, I love the idea of a CTS, but I just can't get past the Cadillac name plate. When I think "Caddy", I still think Old Guy Car, and salesmen with white shoes and matching belts.

In fairness, I haven't stepped into a Cadillac dealer, but I'm one of the guys that doesn't remember there being a good Caddy, and that makes me want to stay away.

Maybe a new name plate and business model is the answer.

Nelson

As a 50 YO myself, when I think of Caddy, I think upstart company. IMHO, MB and BMW - other than a couple of performance models - have become old guy cars, staid and boring cruisers designed to coddle their riders - not drivers - from point to point. I'm more likely to step into a Caddy store as they are at least trying to do something new.

graphicguy · January 2015

All good points. In short, Cadillac has an identity problem. Great products...can compete and win against anything else in their segment....good looking iron to boot. You certainly won't mistake them for any other brand coming towards you....or going away from you....especially at night....

You have to get butts in the seats to make an impression, though. Maybe I'm becoming my Father, though.

I thought for certain my next car was going to be another Acura, or a Lexus IS-F. Here I am in a CTS and enjoying the ride immensely.

Truth told, I can't remember a time where the competition for the segment has been so fierce....Caddy ATS and CTS, Audi A/S4 and A/S6, Mercedes C and E class, BMW 3, 4, and 5 series, Lexus IS, ES, GS...heck, throw Lincoln in there if you want. They don't put out a bad product, it's just too derivative (from the Ford stable).

There really isn't a bad product in the bunch. I never thought I'd say this, but even the dealership experience with my Cadillac rose heads above what I had experienced with BMW, Acura and certainly Audi. Not sure how things are going with my sister's Mercedes experience, but I no news is good news.

roadburner · January 2015

Funny thing; I searched for a used CTS-V with three pedals and they are thin on the ground in the KY area. I still think I'd rather have a Challenger SRT8 if I ever get a decent part-time job.

henryn · January 2015

graphicguy said:

henryn said:

isellhondas said:

roadburner said:
@‌isellhondas
A friend is looking for a car for her son, one of the vehicles she is looking at is a 2004 CRV. Anything to watch out for? I steered her towards the car because I thought it would be the best choice based on how much she had to spend.
Nope, no trouble areas on those. We still have the 2003 we bought new.

Higher resale values than any other cars I can think of so be aware of that. Worth it though!

Craig

I almost bought a new CR-V last year. I would have, but the dealer was $1,000 higher than I wanted to pay (bottom line). His top line was exactly where it should have been, but the bottom line (due to a dealer add-ons and bogus charges like inventory tax) was $1,000 too much.

A 1 or 2 year old CR-V goes for more than the brand new one, so that was out. And a 2005 CR-V would have cost me as much as I wound up paying for the 2005 Tahoe. And that Tahoe cost just about exactly twice as much when new! Yes, used Hondas have ridiculous resale value. Which is very good if you already own one, but very bad if you're thinking of buying one.
Inventory tax? Did you ask the dealer which government regulatory agency was responsible for levying that?

http://ask.cars.com/2013/04/what-is-inventory-tax.html

Texas is among states that assess an inventory tax on automobile dealers based on the value of the vehicles they sell in each calendar year. The tax may vary by county and may not be a significant amount, but it is one of those irksome charges that dealers try to add to the purchase price of a vehicle, along with documentary fees.

As far as we can tell, nothing in Texas law says this tax has to be passed on to the consumer, but there may be nothing to stop dealers from trying. The Texas comptroller's office can shed more light on this tax, though it would probably help if you were a CPA or lawyer.

driver100 · January 2015

henryn said:

graphicguy said:

henryn said:

isellhondas said:

roadburner said:
@‌isellhondas
A friend is looking for a car for her son, one of the vehicles she is looking at is a 2004 CRV. Anything to watch out for? I steered her towards the car because I thought it would be the best choice based on how much she had to spend.
Nope, no trouble areas on those. We still have the 2003 we bought new.

Higher resale values than any other cars I can think of so be aware of that. Worth it though!

Craig

I almost bought a new CR-V last year. I would have, but the dealer was $1,000 higher than I wanted to pay (bottom line). His top line was exactly where it should have been, but the bottom line (due to a dealer add-ons and bogus charges like inventory tax) was $1,000 too much.

A 1 or 2 year old CR-V goes for more than the brand new one, so that was out. And a 2005 CR-V would have cost me as much as I wound up paying for the 2005 Tahoe. And that Tahoe cost just about exactly twice as much when new! Yes, used Hondas have ridiculous resale value. Which is very good if you already own one, but very bad if you're thinking of buying one.
Inventory tax? Did you ask the dealer which government regulatory agency was responsible for levying that?

http://ask.cars.com/2013/04/what-is-inventory-tax.html

Texas is among states that assess an inventory tax on automobile dealers based on the value of the vehicles they sell in each calendar year. The tax may vary by county and may not be a significant amount, but it is one of those irksome charges that dealers try to add to the purchase price of a vehicle, along with documentary fees.

As far as we can tell, nothing in Texas law says this tax has to be passed on to the consumer, but there may be nothing to stop dealers from trying. The Texas comptroller's office can shed more light on this tax, though it would probably help if you were a CPA or lawyer.

Interesting. What's next? Add on an additional amount to each car for "property tax", "state tax", federal tax", "payroll tax," "income tax", soon we will have taxes on taxes, oh wait, we already have that with gas.

dino001 · January 2015

graphicguy said:

I never thought I'd say this, but even the dealership experience with my Cadillac rose heads above what I had experienced with BMW, Acura and certainly Audi.

This is great. I think, the key word would be "consistency". For now there are too many "old style" dealerships, like those you had experienced when struggling with your mother's car, or Mike when he experienced "lost key". If they can weed out those, they have fighting chance. Perhaps they'd need to close some. Part of exclusivity is that dealer network can't be too dense. Access is good, but too much commonality is not. There are 3 or 4 Benz, Audi, or BMW dealerships each in entire Tampa Bay (Tampa, St. Petersburg, Clearwater) plus couple more within 50 miles (Sarasota, Lakeland), but about twice that for Cadillac, even if some are in the same hands. That alone sets the tone. Combine it with lack of consistency (hit or miss experience) and it shows you how much work is ahead.

graphicguy · January 2015

I would dismiss any inventory tax out of hand at the negotiating table. If the dealer wants to present it as a cost the consumer should bare, I would subtract the cost for the tank of gas it cost me to travel to the dealer in the first place.

driver100 · January 2015

Remember my IT friend whose Civic was rear ended, and he leased a new Honda Fit. His Civic was a 2002, it had 84k miles on it, no air or any other option. The insurance company is offering him $4568 for the Civic which they are writing off. He looked up similar cars on Auto Trader and they are all being sold at $2200 to $2600. He asked if he should take it.

I said, "Yes", before they change their mind.

That will be nice for him. It will pay for his lease payments for over a year, while he is still getting his new business off the ground.

isellhondas · January 2015

oldfarmer50 said:

roadburner said:
@‌isellhondas
A friend is looking for a car for her son, one of the vehicles she is looking at is a 2004 CRV. Anything to watch out for? I steered her towards the car because I thought it would be the best choice based on how much she had to spend.
Anything to watch out for? How about the price? Never saw people ask for so much for miled up old cars.

Hondas hold their value for a REASON!

You can certainly pay less and get some ratty Korean or domestic used car!

driver100 · January 2015

I got an email comparing the good old days to today. I found this line about cars had some truth to it:

There was a time when just one glance

Was all that it would take,

And you would know the kind of car,

The model and the make

They didn't look like turtles

Trying to squeeze out every mile;

They were streamlined, white walls, fins

And really had some style

dino001 · January 2015

driver100 said:

Interesting. What's next? Add on an additional amount to each car for "property tax", "state tax", federal tax", "payroll tax," "income tax", soon we will have taxes on taxes, oh wait, we already have that with gas.

Why stop at taxes. We could add dealer boat payment contribution (DBPC), or dealer property occupation surcharge (rent for the time dealer allows us onto their property)?

isellhondas · January 2015

jsyodes said:

roadburner said:
@‌isellhondas
A friend is looking for a car for her son, one of the vehicles she is looking at is a 2004 CRV. Anything to watch out for? I steered her towards the car because I thought it would be the best choice based on how much she had to spend.
Tell her to move up to the 2005, the 2005 had side airbags and VSA, which I don't believe the 2004's had, at least the 2004 LX like my mom's didn't.

Steve

Our 2003 CRV has side airbags.

isellhondas · January 2015

graphicguy said:
I would dismiss any inventory tax out of hand at the negotiating table. If the dealer wants to present it as a cost the consumer should bare, I would subtract the cost for the tank of gas it cost me to travel to the dealer in the first place.

Inventory tax? Never heard that one before!

driver100 · January 2015

dino001 said:

driver100 said:

Interesting. What's next? Add on an additional amount to each car for "property tax", "state tax", federal tax", "payroll tax," "income tax", soon we will have taxes on taxes, oh wait, we already have that with gas.

Why stop at taxes. We could add dealer boat payment contribution (DBPC), or dealer property occupation surcharge (rent for the time dealer allows us onto their property)?

How about a surcharge for owners retirement fund?

roadburner · January 2015

isellhondas said:

oldfarmer50 said:

roadburner said:
@‌isellhondas
A friend is looking for a car for her son, one of the vehicles she is looking at is a 2004 CRV. Anything to watch out for? I steered her towards the car because I thought it would be the best choice based on how much she had to spend.
Anything to watch out for? How about the price? Never saw people ask for so much for miled up old cars.
Hondas hold their value for a REASON!

You can certainly pay less and get some ratty Korean or domestic used car!

Exactly!

fezo · January 2015

On Cadillac. I fear they could fall into the Oldsmobile syndrome, pretty much leaving their existing customers behind while not attracting enough new customers to turn a profit.

Oldsmobile didn't die - it was beaten to death by the geniuses at GM. When they decided that would be their import fighter line and did all those 90s designs (which looked quite nice, actually, even if the mechanicals didn't live up to that they left their customer base behind. The didn't leave one model that would appeal to a guy who was a dyed in the wool Oldsmobile guy so they left. And the import buyers weren't fooled by nice sheet metal.

Obviously Cadillac is far more serious about reinventing itself than Olds was. Hope for their sake that they do. If not I'll be able to pick up a nice, low mileage ATS cheap which would be nice for me but terrible for GM and thus for the economy in general.

graphicguy · January 2015

Driver....good news for you IT friend. Insurance actually payng up the way they're supposed to is a rarity. Maybe there is hope for insurance companies.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2015

Cadillac will hopefully retire the XTS soon---that will help. The Germans have a whole new arsenal in the wings, so Cadillac needs to up their game.

henryn · January 2015

driver100 said:
Remember my IT friend whose Civic was rear ended, and he leased a new Honda Fit. His Civic was a 2002, it had 84k miles on it, no air or any other option. The insurance company is offering him $4568 for the Civic which they are writing off. He looked up similar cars on Auto Trader and they are all being sold at $2200 to $2600. He asked if he should take it.

I said, "Yes", before they change their mind.

That will be nice for him. It will pay for his lease payments for over a year, while he is still getting his new business off the ground.

I would expect it to be very hard to find a 2002 Civic with under 100k miles. Very difficult, almost impossible? Those "similar cars on Auto Trader", how many miles did they have?

ab348 · January 2015

Inventory tax is rare but not unheard of. The provincial liquor board I used to work for had to pay an annual inventory tax on our store inventory to each municipality we had retail outlets in. One of my accomplishments in my time working with them was convincing the government to repeal that measure, so they no longer have such a tax here.

ab348 · January 2015

fezo said:
On Cadillac. I fear they could fall into the Oldsmobile syndrome, pretty much leaving their existing customers behind while not attracting enough new customers to turn a profit.

Oldsmobile didn't die - it was beaten to death by the geniuses at GM. When they decided that would be their import fighter line and did all those 90s designs (which looked quite nice, actually, even if the mechanicals didn't live up to that they left their customer base behind. The didn't leave one model that would appeal to a guy who was a dyed in the wool Oldsmobile guy so they left. And the import buyers weren't fooled by nice sheet metal.

Obviously Cadillac is far more serious about reinventing itself than Olds was. Hope for their sake that they do. If not I'll be able to pick up a nice, low mileage ATS cheap which would be nice for me but terrible for GM and thus for the economy in general.

I used to feel the same way about Olds, being an Olds fan, that they abandoned their existing customer base. With time my views have changed a bit. The new products they introduced in the late 90s/early 2000s were crippled by GM's cost-cutting and parts-bin philosophy. Olds actually had more unique product than the other GM divisions but it was still struggling to compete in an engineering and quality sense with the mainstream imports. Cadillac has no such product issues by comparison.

I also wonder who exactly is making cars for the "traditional" buyer these days anyway. Even Lincoln gave up the Town Car and Ford discontinued the Grand Marquis. Avalon? Azera? Good luck to them. GM has the Lacrosse and the Impala, which comes closest I guess. But I can't see building a brand on that small base of customers these days.

driver100 · January 2015

henryn said:

driver100 said:
Remember my IT friend whose Civic was rear ended, and he leased a new Honda Fit. His Civic was a 2002, it had 84k miles on it, no air or any other option. The insurance company is offering him $4568 for the Civic which they are writing off. He looked up similar cars on Auto Trader and they are all being sold at $2200 to $2600. He asked if he should take it.

I said, "Yes", before they change their mind.

That will be nice for him. It will pay for his lease payments for over a year, while he is still getting his new business off the ground.
I would expect it to be very hard to find a 2002 Civic with under 100k miles. Very difficult, almost impossible? Those "similar cars on Auto Trader", how many miles did they have?

I checked Auto Trader for the province of Ontario, population just under 14 million. There were 5 2002 Civics listed, all with about 70k to 90k miles on them. Most had lots of extras on them, all had a/c but his car had no options except automatic. The lowest was $2800 and highest $4000, but some of these were pretty loaded up.
A few were sold as is.

So, yes, they are out there, they do hold onto their value for obvious reasons, but, $4568 for one with no a/c seems pretty reasonable to me.

driver100 · January 2015

ab348 said:

fezo said:
On Cadillac. I fear they could fall into the Oldsmobile syndrome, pretty much leaving their existing customers behind while not attracting enough new customers to turn a profit.

Oldsmobile didn't die - it was beaten to death by the geniuses at GM. When they decided that would be their import fighter line and did all those 90s designs (which looked quite nice, actually, even if the mechanicals didn't live up to that they left their customer base behind. The didn't leave one model that would appeal to a guy who was a dyed in the wool Oldsmobile guy so they left. And the import buyers weren't fooled by nice sheet metal.

Obviously Cadillac is far more serious about reinventing itself than Olds was. Hope for their sake that they do. If not I'll be able to pick up a nice, low mileage ATS cheap which would be nice for me but terrible for GM and thus for the economy in general.
I used to feel the same way about Olds, being an Olds fan, that they abandoned their existing customer base. With time my views have changed a bit. The new products they introduced in the late 90s/early 2000s were crippled by GM's cost-cutting and parts-bin philosophy. Olds actually had more unique product than the other GM divisions but it was still struggling to compete in an engineering and quality sense with the mainstream imports. Cadillac has no such product issues by comparison.

I also wonder who exactly is making cars for the "traditional" buyer these days anyway. Even Lincoln gave up the Town Car and Ford discontinued the Grand Marquis. Avalon? Azera? Good luck to them. GM has the Lacrosse and the Impala, which comes closest I guess. But I can't see building a brand on that small base of customers these days.

Don't forget Ford still has the Taurus...wish they gave it another name and I am not sure if there is a reason to make such a car. Only a real traditionalist could buy one. Chrysler 200s and Chargers are suitable for all age groups.

GM had to reduce lines and they had to keep their best seller, Chevrolet, and their best potential money maker Cadillac. They sell a ton of Buicks in China which is a growing market, so they had to dump Pontiac and Oldsmobile.

The average buyer of new cars is 50. Most people buy their first car at 38. Even though Hyundais are marketed to young people they have more older buyers than younger. As one exec said, you can market a younger persons car to older people, but you can't market an old man's car to younger people.

isellhondas · January 2015

driver100 said:

henryn said:

driver100 said:
Remember my IT friend whose Civic was rear ended, and he leased a new Honda Fit. His Civic was a 2002, it had 84k miles on it, no air or any other option. The insurance company is offering him $4568 for the Civic which they are writing off. He looked up similar cars on Auto Trader and they are all being sold at $2200 to $2600. He asked if he should take it.

I said, "Yes", before they change their mind.

That will be nice for him. It will pay for his lease payments for over a year, while he is still getting his new business off the ground.
I would expect it to be very hard to find a 2002 Civic with under 100k miles. Very difficult, almost impossible? Those "similar cars on Auto Trader", how many miles did they have?

I checked Auto Trader for the province of Ontario, population just under 14 million. There were 5 2002 Civics listed, all with about 70k to 90k miles on them. Most had lots of extras on them, all had a/c but his car had no options except automatic. The lowest was $2800 and highest $4000, but some of these were pretty loaded up.
A few were sold as is.

So, yes, they are out there, they do hold onto their value for obvious reasons, but, $4568 for one with no a/c seems pretty reasonable to me.

If that Civic doesn't have A/C, that means it's a lowly DX model. Crank windows too.

They were such poor sellers Honda dropped them a few years ago.

ab348 · January 2015

isellhondas said:

If that Civic doesn't have A/C, that means it's a lowly DX model. Crank windows too.

They were such poor sellers Honda dropped them a few years ago.

Not in Canada. Canadians love cheap cars. It is still sold here. It has power windows now but no automatic transmission or A/C, and is only available in one color, black.

Michaell · January 2015

ab348 said:

isellhondas said:

If that Civic doesn't have A/C, that means it's a lowly DX model. Crank windows too.

They were such poor sellers Honda dropped them a few years ago.
Not in Canada. Canadians love cheap cars. It is still sold here. It has power windows now but no automatic transmission or A/C, and is only available in one color, black.

Aren't those Quebec specials? I've heard there is an affinity for stripped out cars in that province.

graphicguy · January 2015

For the life of me, I never could understand GM dumping Olds and keeping Buick and GMC. GMC products are virtual clones of their Chevy counterparts. And, Olds at least had interesting products (the Auroral was pretty cool).

But, that's what they did.

I just saw a video of Jay Leno interviewing a Product Marketing guy for the new 'Vette. Jay made it a point of saying that GM is now being run by engineers vs accountants, as a result of the restructuring. It's showing in their exemplary products, including Cadillacs.

Sandman6472 · January 2015

I see a difference in dealers now that we've changed our fleet to Audi and VW. At Audi, they seem to want to make it "an experience" if you will. Drive ina nd you see the wife's name on the computer screens up above, a nice first impression. Free car wash/vacuum whenever she wants is a nice perk and it's right in our development, what's not to like. Their showroom is upscale and they do things "just right". Now VW, only get a wash/vacuum after a service visit and now that I'm having an issue they can't or don't want to fix, they tell me my issue "is the way the vehicle is supposed to run" because they have no clue how to fix it and don't want to spend anymore time or $ on it. A big difference between the two I'd say.
I had to open a case today with VW corporate and got a case #...a shame that I had to go over the dealerships head to get some attention but one must do what one must. Am thinking that Audi would have not let things go so far as to have to get corporate involved but who knows. Anyways, Audi has impressed so far...VW, not so much!

The Sandman

jayrider · January 2015

sandman_6472 said:
I see a difference in dealers now that we've changed our fleet to Audi and VW. At Audi, they seem to want to make it "an experience" if you will. Drive ina nd you see the wife's name on the computer screens up above, a nice first impression. Free car wash/vacuum whenever she wants is a nice perk and it's right in our development, what's not to like. Their showroom is upscale and they do things "just right". Now VW, only get a wash/vacuum after a service visit and now that I'm having an issue they can't or don't want to fix, they tell me my issue "is the way the vehicle is supposed to run" because they have no clue how to fix it and don't want to spend anymore time or $ on it. A big difference between the two I'd say.
I had to open a case today with VW corporate and got a case #...a shame that I had to go over the dealerships head to get some attention but one must do what one must. Am thinking that Audi would have not let things go so far as to have to get corporate involved but who knows. Anyways, Audi has impressed so far...VW, not so much!

The Sandman

When I bought my Buick, had a similar situation with vibration on the highway. They had me bring it in and rebalanced and rotated the tires. Not sure if anything else. When I left, they said that if there was any further issues to please bring it back. There wasn't but I got the impression that they would work hard to make me happy.

roadburner · January 2015

GM kept Buick because it was their cash cow in China. Bob Lutz wanted to keep Pontiac instead, but the numbers allegedly didn't add up...

fezo · January 2015

Yeah, that was the word.

I always wondered why they chose Olds as their "import fighter." I would have thought Pontiac would have made more sense. Since all they were doing for the most part was redesigning sheet metal as opposed to seriously marketing a real competitor to their target I guess it doesn't matter.

Sandman6472 · January 2015

That's just the point, the problem and shaking still exists but hey said it was the road I was travelings fault!! Honestly, that's what they said and that i just have to live with it! I knew then and there that i was going to have to go further up the chain of command here and I did just that with going to the general manager which turned out to be a bust. Today, I hit up VW Customer Service and got a claim # so we'll see how they respond now. Personally, I don't care if they dislike me or what, this isn't normal by any stretch and I bet if the tables were turned, they'd do the same thing if I had given them such ludicrous answers!

The Sandman

thebean · January 2015

sandman_6472 said:

I see a difference in dealers now that we've changed our fleet to Audi and VW. At Audi, they seem to want to make it "an experience" if you will. Drive ina nd you see the wife's name on the computer screens up above, a nice first impression. Free car wash/vacuum whenever she wants is a nice perk and it's right in our development, what's not to like. Their showroom is upscale and they do things "just right". Now VW, only get a wash/vacuum after a service visit and now that I'm having an issue they can't or don't want to fix, they tell me my issue "is the way the vehicle is supposed to run" because they have no clue how to fix it and don't want to spend anymore time or $ on it. A big difference between the two I'd say. I had to open a case today with VW corporate and got a case #...a shame that I had to go over the dealerships head to get some attention but one must do what one must. Am thinking that Audi would have not let things go so far as to have to get corporate involved but who knows. Anyways, Audi has impressed so far...VW, not so much! The Sandman

I suspect @driver100 would have a different opinion about Audi Corporate working hard to solve problems and pleasing customers.

stickguy · January 2015

well Sandy, you are probably close to enough fruitless trips to the dealer to file a lemon law claim. Even if you don't, telling them that you are ready to might get some attention.

honestly, it will take so little time and effort (and negligible cost) to just swap out the wheels with another car, I don't know why they are resisting that so much.

nyccarguy · January 2015

I don't know why they don't just let him drive another car to see if it as the same problem. That's the easiest solution. Isolate the problem. If the other Golf he drives doesn't do the same thing, then Sandy's has a problem.

stickguy · January 2015

agreed Bradd. In my experience, that is the first thing I would expect them to do. take his out near the dealer to exhibit the problem, then take out another one on the same road at same speed. Very simple POC, and won't put more than 5 miles on the other unit, so basically a test drive. heck, doesn't even have to be a new Golf. just the same model.

jayrider · January 2015

This whole thing with Sandy seems so odd.
There just seems to be no effort by the dealer to resolve the problem. I would schedule a meeting with the GM to see if this kind of customer interaction behavior comes from the top.

driver100 · January 2015

thebean said:

sandman_6472 said:

I see a difference in dealers now that we've changed our fleet to Audi and VW. At Audi, they seem to want to make it "an experience" if you will. Drive ina nd you see the wife's name on the computer screens up above, a nice first impression. Free car wash/vacuum whenever she wants is a nice perk and it's right in our development, what's not to like. Their showroom is upscale and they do things "just right". Now VW, only get a wash/vacuum after a service visit and now that I'm having an issue they can't or don't want to fix, they tell me my issue "is the way the vehicle is supposed to run" because they have no clue how to fix it and don't want to spend anymore time or $ on it. A big difference between the two I'd say.
I had to open a case today with VW corporate and got a case #...a shame that I had to go over the dealerships head to get some attention but one must do what one must. Am thinking that Audi would have not let things go so far as to have to get corporate involved but who knows. Anyways, Audi has impressed so far...VW, not so much!

The Sandman

I suspect @driver100 would have a different opinion about Audi Corporate working hard to solve problems and pleasing customers.

Yes Mr bean, I was going to say, "Good luck with that one!".

Dealing with Audi corporate won't be any better.

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