What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2015

New York is pretty safe. You can walk around there at night, at least Manhattan.

The 'burbs' are becoming the New Poverty. How ironic.

gagrice said:
Ruking: Another inexplicable truth is so called "walk able" cities (like Seattle, almost any city really) have utterly "FAILED" to make major parts of the (its') city "walkable. "

Not a city in the USA I would feel safe at night walking in. At least unarmed. There was a time when San Diego was safe at night. Not anymore.

Steve: Now, if we moved to California, in 14 years, we could take advantage of the fancy new high-speed rail service. Powered by advanced clean-diesel technology.

They cannot get the right of ways for the first leg to NOWHERE. They Cannot get the financing for that boondoggle. Only way it will EVER be built is if the Chinese come in and build it for the state.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersreact/la-le-0107-wednesday-high-speed-rail-20150107-story.html

The 29 mile train to NOWHERE.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/01/07/california-bullet-train-most-expensive-public-works-project-in-us-history/

ruking1 · January 2015

Becoming? Hardly !!! Some ARE, some aren't ! ? Stockton, CA, Detroit, MI are two examples of those that have been there a LONG while. It is really a matter of catching the correct trends @ the correct times, aka up to 2.5 GENERATIONS. This applies to cities also.

So really as it applies to the discount on fuel and specifically diesel prices, it is SAD (philosophically, on one point) to give/get discounts on what a VERY small minority uses in the PVF (less than 5 %). Sure for folks like me, grinning from ear to ear for a .50 discount on top of a .50 cent discount on ULSD (@ $2.59), even as I do wish for 1.85 per gal and BELOW. RUG/PUG discounts are seen as wider spread tax breaks ! Lots of special interest groups are confounded to LIVID as we are getting "tax cuts" with WAY less use !!! The intent is of course AMERICAN economic PUNISHMENT. With the way less use only 1% overage are causing these "massive price drops !!!! So yippee I say !! ??

ruking1 · January 2015

SOS/DD DOWNGRADE Trek, 210 miles, posted 35 mpg (6 gal est consumed) on the 12 VW T TDI. Off the mountains (highest altitude 7,382 ft, it was hugging 42.5 mpg, but I lost

that number @ app the 85 miles mark! Earlier in the mountains, I was several cars behind a fully LOADED industrial dirt hauler, and was happy to finally pass it on a longer two lane (passing lane) area.

elias · January 2015

Worst time ever for the diesel/gas fuel delta... diesel is so much more than gas.
I don't see that trend reversing any time soon, but it "should" mitigate somewhat this summer, if past trends are followed.

Will diesel ever be about the same price as gasoline?!?!
Seems like not, but i defer to the oil market experts and pundits who kindly join us in-between trading fuel futures for fun and profit.

48 cents diesel vs 87 cent gasoline is what got me interested in diesel cars in the late 1990s. Also it was fun to drive the VW TDIs to time the inevitable soot-cloud releases directly onto tailgaters. Oh the memories.

Saw A6 TDI last night. Nice! There are so many preferable gas-powered cars for less $, however...

gagrice · January 2015

Elias: 48 cents diesel vs 87 cent gasoline is what got me interested in diesel cars in the late 1990s. Also it was fun to drive the VW TDIs to time the inevitable soot-cloud releases directly onto tailgaters. Oh the memories.

It was the late 1990s that got me interested in diesel. I was fed up with getting 12 MPG in my full sized PU trucks and my 92 Toyota PU that never got over 16 MPG. I was not living anywhere that gas was under $1.50 in CA, HI or AK. Diesel never seemed to be much less, just a little. When two young Brazilian men drove into Prudhoe Bay Alaska on their trip from the tip of South America in a Ford Ranger diesel I was interested. They were averaging about 45 MPG for the trip. My first time on Edmunds in 1998 was to try and find one of those Ranger diesels. I soon learned that diesel for the masses was persona non grata in the USA. The attitude toward diesel has not changed. The states and Feds added more tax to diesel. The oil companies are not in favor of personal diesel vehicles for obvious reasons, so they export as much as they can to keep the prices high. No different than 100+ years ago when Rockefeller pulled a quick one on Henry Ford to get rid of his waste product, GASOLINE. It was crap then, it is even worse crap today with the ethanol mileage killer added. If any company offers a small PU with a diesel engine, I will trade my gas guzzling Nissan Frontier. I am loving the fact that our 20 cent price difference in San Diego is better than most of the USA.

gagrice · January 2015

Check this out. The station I use in Roseburg Oregon only 4 cents difference between RUG and ULSD. May be coming to a city near you soon.

http://www.sandiegogasprices.com/76_Gas_Stations/Roseburg/22136/index.aspx

stever · January 2015

"Cheap" and they even pump it for you. Bet they move a lot of diesel in that little town too since most of the logging trucks likely burn diesel (the ones near us in the UP did at least).

gagrice · January 2015

Logging could be a factor. Cottage Grove and Eugene seem to have higher prices on both RUG and diesel. Makes Roseburg look better all the time. It could be the lower taxes in Roseburg (Douglas county). I did not see a lot of logging activity while we were there. I think the Eco Nuts would rather lose that industry to Canada.

stever · January 2015

Fly over BC sometimes - I think all the easy pickings are gone.

You'd hate Eugene - big bike town. Good canoe shop there, under one of the bridges iirc. Boulder West.

Back to the "we're all gonna die" drumbeat, here's this tidbit:

Diesel exhaust a danger after 2 hours, indicates UBC study (cbc.ca)

Working in the yards and breathing the exhaust where the logging truck pile up the roll offs is probably more dangerous than the risk of getting smashed by a Douglas fir.

fintail · January 2015

Solution - hold commercial vehicles (including the coal rolling trucks loved by inbreds) to the same accountability standards as modern diesel cars. Of course, the "study" by patronizing bleeding heart academics seeks to paint with a broad brush and just whines about diesel overall, without proposing a real solution, just like the Frogs and Limeys

Eugene is kind of a cross between hipsterville and hippieville - you must own a fixed gear bike or a dirty LLC Prius, bathe weekly, have questionable facial hair, etc.

gagrice · January 2015

Steve: Back to the "we're all gonna die" drumbeat, here's this tidbit:

If I walk into a warehouse or shop where they are using a Herman Nelson gas heater, my chest gets tight in less than a minute. Being in a closed area with any kind of pollution is not smart. And for an asthmatic it could be deadly. Not sure the point of the article. No one says breathing exhaust of any sort is healthy. I wonder if the higher levels of PM2.5 in Oregon are from burning wood for heat. My air is pretty good where I am even with a few wood burners around, myself included.

Using Beijing as an example is crazy. Their air makes 1960s Los Angeles look clean. Even today in LA if the pollution don't get ya the pollen will.

http://classic.wunderground.com/DisplayPollen.asp?Zipcode=90745

stever · January 2015

I think @fintail has it right; just keep making it cheaper to run clean and force the old rigs to either upgrade or retire.

slorenzen · January 2015

"Cottage Grove and Eugene seem to have higher prices on both RUG and diesel. "

That's because Lane county is more ENLIGHTENED, dont'cha know?

(/sarc)

ruking1 · January 2015

elias said:
Worst time ever for the diesel/gas fuel delta... diesel is so much more than gas.
I don't see that trend reversing any time soon, but it "should" mitigate somewhat this summer, if past trends are followed.

Will diesel ever be about the same price as gasoline?!?!
Seems like not, but i defer to the oil market experts and pundits who kindly join us in-between trading fuel futures for fun and profit.

48 cents diesel vs 87 cent gasoline is what got me interested in diesel cars in the late 1990s. Also it was fun to drive the VW TDIs to time the inevitable soot-cloud releases directly onto tailgaters. Oh the memories.

Saw A6 TDI last night. Nice! There are so many preferable gas-powered cars for less $, however...

For sure right now IS a snap shot of the delta.

I am not sure how you see the trends reversing or...not, when you did not even see the price of crude CRASHING?

..."Will diesel ever be about the same price as gasoline?!?! "...

That is about as goofy a question as asking if MG and PUG will ever be the same price as RUG. Yes they can, BUT mostly NO ! This is especially true if you IGNORE the real drivers in each fuels' dynamic, not to mention the institutional HATE and real reasons taxation and profits of diesel in the system. Diesel can easily be .75 cents CHEAPER sans higher taxation, tax credits and write off to "equalized to RUG/PUG" (not exportable) due to ULSD EXPORT. So, Yes to mostly NO !! ??

So here is a snap shot of 20 mpg vs 33 mpg VW T gasser/TDI @ $2.64/ $3.09= .45 delta = .132 cents vs .0936 cents or PUG on the like model is 41 % more per mile driven. DIESEL getting 65% BETTER fuel mileage !!! ????

I do not have any anecdotal experiences with the 15 Audi A6 gasser, 18/27 mpg, nor TDI, 24/38 mpg. So just on EPA ratings ONLY (normally TDI's do much better) the A6 diesel gets 41% better fuel mileage? So if you like the A6 gasser better than the A6 TDI ( 53k + TDI =2.2k MORE, @ 55.2) , to each their own, they are after all, YOUR nickels !!! This might be true also, if one subscribes to using less fuel in name only, not practice and especially if the rules WILL allow you to burn more fuel !!?? But if you will spring that kind of money (53k + for the A6.... ???? (not to mention 325 # ft vs 428 # ft?) But then 95% of the PVF de facto have chosen to pay more per mile driven FUEL (like model) by RUG/PUG choice. Obvious YOU and I are fine with that. I am fine with (me) paying LESS.

ruking1 · January 2015

stever said:
I think @fintail has it right; just keep making it cheaper to run clean and force the old rigs to either upgrade or retire.

We have been pointing out that heavy duty DIESEL trucks (or gassers for that matter) have little to no emissions controls and at BEST follow different standards (than PVF gassers/TDI's) . So if people want their truck based logistics to cost way more, aka GASSERS (delivery trucks FedX, UPS, tractor trailers, etc etc., make the standards tighter, so the switch to gassers (or whatever) will cost everyone way more !!! De facto again, no one really does want the price to rise !!

stever · January 2015

Maybe it boils down to whether you want to save money on freight or medical costs.

Oh, ship me a gallon of plastics will you? My 3D printer is running short and I need some gizmos.

fwiw, the delta at the Circle K where I filled up today was $2.86 - $1.73 or a dollar thirteen. My $29 fillup would have been closer to $45.

ruking1 · January 2015

Well for sure, IF one can actually flesh those distinctions out !! ??

With a delta of .52 cents @ my last fill, I was glad for the .50 cent OFF grocery discount, not to mention a 3 to 5% off that for a card discount !!!

Basically, it is a $12 discount (for 24 gals of ULSD)

I don't expect most folks to agree, care or heaven forbid, consider switching, let alone ACTUALLY switch. BUT for the kind of driving that I do, the diesels seem way better adapted and apropos !!!! I do especially like the TDI's' performance @ altitude.

The financial portions have been gravy. I do like NOT stopping as much for fuel, even as I realize that might not be noticeable, even if one stops a lot more or a lot less,

gagrice · January 2015

I think we are in for lower diesel prices very soon. Wholesale price of ULSD as of the 5th was down to $1.77 per gallon. It was $2.03 in December. Sounds like the crooks along the Interstate 10 corridor are raping the truck drivers. Only 34 cents difference on the wholesale market between RUG and ULSD. Looking across the county ours varies from 20 to 40 cents difference. Our cheapest CC gas is Costco at $2.25.

http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=diesel&months=120&commodity=gasoline

I contacted Costco to see if they were going to add diesel to more stations. They have them in various places across the USA to determine demand.

http://www.costco.com/gasoline-diesel.html

ruking1 · January 2015

gagrice said:
I think we are in for lower diesel prices very soon. Wholesale price of ULSD as of the 5th was down to $1.77 per gallon. It was $2.03 in December. Sounds like the crooks along the Interstate 10 corridor are raping the truck drivers. Only 34 cents difference on the wholesale market between RUG and ULSD. Looking across the county ours varies from 20 to 40 cents difference. Our cheapest CC gas is Costco at $2.25.

http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=diesel&months=120&commodity=gasoline

I contacted Costco to see if they were going to add diesel to more stations. They have them in various places across the USA to determine demand.

http://www.costco.com/gasoline-diesel.html

Does Costco have separate, (non pc, segregated) diesel pumps and/or do they have commingled diesel pumps @ some gasser pump positions?

Yippee for diesel pumps going on line @ Costco Folsom, CA (along SOS/DD path) !! 3% back on Costco card rates a yahoo ! $1.84 for a Polish, kraut, and a soft drink...whats not to like?

IF no separate pumps, the only disadvantage I can anticipate is having to wait behind a lot more gasser folks who are not waiting for diesel. A secondary issue might be having to wait for a specific diesel pump when a NON diesel opens. (a gasser type might use that opportunity to get PO'd) Diesel pumps @ ALL positions would make the secondary issue MOOT !!

stever · January 2015

I can see the benefit of separate pumps but best not make them "too" separate unless you want code enforcement on your case. (baltimoresun.com)

People across the pond are enjoying the lower prices that diesel users here have been seeing the last couple of months.

Diesel price dips below euro mark, again! (Luxemburger Wort)

gagrice · January 2015

Every pump has RUG, PUG & ULSD. Three pumps per lane and 7 lanes. Moves pretty fast. Most use Costco AMEX CC. I'll snap a pic of their fancy new pumps next time we go there.

PS
There is a green dispenser for diesel.

ruking1 · January 2015

gagrice said:
Every pump has RUG, PUG & ULSD. Three pumps per lane and 7 lanes. Moves pretty fast. Most use Costco AMEX CC. I'll snap a pic of their fancy new pumps next time we go there.

Thanks for the fast reply !! No worries ! ULSD at ALL positions creates a total moot point, albeit total overkill for PUG (@ 9 %) and ULSD (@ way less than 5 %)

Fuel hoses @ Costco are LONG enough to fuel on either/both the left/right sides.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/buyers-r-ready-first-500-new-volkswagen-golf-rs-sell-out-in-11-hours/

To me this article is inference "proof positive" a TDI, aka GTD/R AWD would do WILDLY well ! ? Funny how a sub $ 40k MSRP gasser has not a wit of issue??

ruking1 · January 2015

stever said:
Fly over BC sometimes - I think all the easy pickings are gone.

You'd hate Eugene - big bike town. Good canoe shop there, under one of the bridges iirc. Boulder West.

Back to the "we're all gonna die" drumbeat, here's this tidbit:

Diesel exhaust a danger after 2 hours, indicates UBC study (cbc.ca)

Working in the yards and breathing the exhaust where the logging truck pile up the roll offs is probably more dangerous than the risk of getting smashed by a Douglas fir.

Indeed I have any number of times (in light planes) . The answer is pretty easy, stop building new/old structures with ... new wood. My money is on AINT going to happen !!

Another is with CA wild fires, (READ nature will do what nature will do with or without MAN) shows the natural conditions are almost state WIDE WILD fires @ almost predicable intervals !! ???? Indeed the policy of almost "instantaneous" fire clamp down, create ever greater conditions for fire the longer it is delayed.

So that you can be fined and convicted of a felony for cutting down trees on ones' own property (without a permit) is an indication of how silly things have become. Being hounded to keeping ones property "defensible" against fire is another exercise in policy schizophrenia.

YEARS after a devastating wild fire in a national forest close to the end destination of the SOS/DD trek trees marked for logging are actually losing their marks. I am sure it is still being litigated. Needless to say, it keeps the area a very high fire hazard, when it does not need to be !! ??? So with CLEAR 20/20 hind sight, was it more or less mutually beneficial to allow ZERO logging and letting it burn to near catastrophic result or allow selective logging which if done correctly would have cut down the chances of it being a major catastrophe????? (remove the fuel load)

ruking1 · January 2015

Great (but boring?) Toyota COROLLA? BUT sub $ 33 k???

http://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-camry-hybrid-wonderfully-boring-1420827860?mod=WSJ_hp_EditorsPicks

Anecdotally, up 3 mpg from my 2004 Honda Civic @ $12,364 ???? (not a thing WRONG with 41 mpg C) @ the time, the local Toyota dealer (also bought a few Toyotas from them) would NOT come off $15,000. I don't even want to bore you (gasser types) on a B/E !!! 2004 Honda Hybrid gets $1k over the gasser. But at the time, they would not come off $18k.

F/F to 2015, 175,000 miles with 20,000 miles OCI's with Mobil One 0w20, 5w20 oil , Fram/WalMart oil filters.

Cost per mile driven DEPRECIATION @ .0322 cents per mile driven (GREAT actually) .

stever · January 2015

Such a granular article.

Next week the 200 mile charge Bolt will be revolting everyone at the Detroit auto show.

fintail · January 2015

I'd rather have the Camry than a Prius, anyway.

Like this line:

"I think the fact that the designers hung a broom mustache on the car like one of the pigs in Angry Birds"

Yes, designer sycophants, some of us see through your game.

avalon02wh · January 2015

Ruking1 - “This is especially true if you IGNORE the real drivers in each fuels' dynamic, not to mention the institutional HATE and real reasons taxation and profits of diesel in the system.”

If you do some searching you find that it was not hate but

“In 1984, Reagan signed the Deficit Reduction Act (raising taxes by $50 billion) into law, sharply cutting the use fee and raising the tax on diesel from $.09/gallon to $.14/gallon. A report from the Joint Committee on Taxation explained the rationale:
“Higher rates scheduled to take effect under the Highway Revenue Act of 1982 would have imposed a large tax on trucking operations which did not necessarily relate to the amount of business they might do, and that an alternative form of highway excise taxation should be devised which is more definitely correlated with the use of trucks. Therefore, Congress decided to substitute a high diesel fuel tax for a lower use tax.” http://www.businessinsider.com/why-diesel-costs-more-than-gasoline-2013-10

Gagrice – CR shows that the 1.8L Passat does 45 to 65 mph, in 5.5 sec to the 6.1 of the TDI.

Last week nation wide RUG was $2.21 and ULSD was $3.14. Locally RUG was $2.20 and ULSD was $3.00. Still a very large difference.

Will the difference remain? Hard to say. Right now here in ND the diesel demand is about 60,000 barrels a day over what is produced in state. Since 2/3 of the diesel is imported prices remain high. I also think that it easier to charge companies more for diesel than charge consumers for gasoline. You see that a bit with airlines. They charge more for business class. Maybe consumers complain more???

One thing that might reduce the diesel price in ND is the new refineries that are planned. http://billingsgazette.com/business/features/energy-company-plans-diesel-natural-gas-plants-in-n-d/article_cab725f0-32f3-5f08-810b-ed33a7bc723b.html I am taking a wait and see attitude on this. With ND sweet crude at only $35 a barrel (last week) it remains to be seen what the impact will be on production. We should know a bit more when the next director's cut comes out this week. https://www.dmr.nd.gov/oilgas/

ruking1 · January 2015

You mis-characterize the % DIESEL PVF % (cars) during Reagan's tenure. At that time, it was even a SMALLER minority (25% of the 5% diesels were cars) than it is NOW (less than 50 % or less than 2.5% of the diesel fleet ! So while you might not like the word HATE, ULSD is STILL and FURTHER being economically penalized (from a price per gal point of view).

STILL/unchanged, price per mile driven ppmd FUEL is still better for diesel (like model). So the distinction/hair splitting does not change nor alter the original points. The key point is LSD (500 ppm) can be EXPORTED, RUG/PUG can NOT !

So, if you wish to use more (30 to 65% more) RUG/PUG when you can use LESS ULSD, to beat a dead horse, I am perfectly fine with that. In that sense, that was the longer term design which exists to this day. To be clear, I want to use LESS to even less AND cost less to EVEN less.

As for NEW processing plant's near to production and on US soil, I say yippee yahoo !! However, it is a Yogi Berra type issue: "it ain't processing product, till its up and processing product". So to me, a TOTAL non starter on effect/s on diesel or natural gas prices.

So yes, I hope that one correctly placed environmental lawsuit does NOT tie these intended plants up for an unknown term of YEARS or does not allow it even to run.

gagrice · January 2015

Avalon02WH: Right now here in ND the diesel demand is about 60,000 barrels a day over what is produced in state. Since 2/3 of the diesel is imported prices remain high. I also think that it easier to charge companies more for diesel than charge consumers for gasoline.

Interesting article on building refineries in ND for diesel. It does not say if it is ULSD. I wonder if it is more for heating, generating power, trucks or jet fuel? Maybe all of the above. 7k barrels out of 20K barrels sounds about right. I wonder if they will send the remainder to another refinery for extracting gas and other products?

Gagrice – CR shows that the 1.8L Passat does 45 to 65 mph, in 5.5 sec to the 6.1 of the TDI.

Not having much interest in the Passat, I was basing my assumption on the difference in the Touareg TDI vs the slower Touareg V6 gasser. 0-60 the TDI is 6.9 seconds and the V6 gasser is 7.9 seconds. The The 50-70 time for the Touareg TDI is even more impressive. My need in CA is a vehicle that will go 30-75 uphill in short order to get onto several freeways that do not slow down for people entering. The V8s I have driven Toyota, Lexus and GM were NOT close to the TDI in that capacity.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2014-jeep-grand-cherokee-summit-ecodiesel-4x4-vs-2013-volkswagen-touareg-tdi-2013-mercedes-benz-ml350-bluetec-4matic-2013-porsche-cayenne-diesel-2013-bmw-x5-xdrive35d-final-scoring-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-7

ruking1 · January 2015

I would concur, needs here are 30 to 90 mph UPHILL and @ altitudes up to 8,000 ft (7,388 ft is a frequent maximum) . The 2.1 L Twin Turbo TDI is slightly slower, but still no slouch.

I'd be dreaming to be able to do that in the GASSERS 94/96 TLC's. I am it would be labor for the 8 cylinder TLC's.

gagrice · January 2015

Ruking: So while you might not like the word HATE, ULSD is STILL and FURTHER being economically penalized

When it comes to CA and CARB, HATE is the word. Until they found out their Hater in Chief was a lying sack of you know what, getting approval of any diesel car was not happening. And he still has a job. What a corrupt state I live in.

Mary Nichols of the California Air Resources Board covered up fraud by CARB employee, Hien Tran. In what turned out to be a mail order Ph.D., Hien T. Tran was found to have lied about having a Ph.D. in statistics from University of California, Davis. But even with full knowledge of Tran’s phony credentials, in December 2008, CARB went ahead with the diesel emissions rules based on Tran’s report. Nichols claimed her intentions were good, and she and Hien Tran kept their jobs.

http://watchdogwire.com/california/2014/09/09/ca-the-lull-of-state-government-corruption-and-approval-by-the-legislature/

ruking1 · January 2015

gagrice said:
Ruking: So while you might not like the word HATE, ULSD is STILL and FURTHER being economically penalized

When it comes to CA and CARB, HATE is the word. Until they found out their Hater in Chief was a lying sack of you know what, getting approval of any diesel car was not happening. And he still has a job. What a corrupt state I live in.

Mary Nichols of the California Air Resources Board covered up fraud by CARB employee, Hien Tran. In what turned out to be a mail order Ph.D., Hien T. Tran was found to have lied about having a Ph.D. in statistics from University of California, Davis. But even with full knowledge of Tran’s phony credentials, in December 2008, CARB went ahead with the diesel emissions rules based on Tran’s report. Nichols claimed her intentions were good, and she and Hien Tran kept their jobs.

http://watchdogwire.com/california/2014/09/09/ca-the-lull-of-state-government-corruption-and-approval-by-the-legislature/

For me, that cuts a bit personal (family member graduated, not to mention one of my lawyers), as overall, Davis is an excellent University, love the vibe and GO AGGIES !!

I may have read that Tran guy did his undergrad @ Davis, still SLIMY !!

SADLY, integrity @ all levels was probably compromised to come to the EXACT conclusions the higher ups wanted to begin with (HATE DIESEL !?) ! Seems the anti diesel cabal is into burning more, polluting more, while professing to doing/using less !!!The right thing, reverse that data less and FLAWED decision !!! Stop the HATE !!!

By any way you cut it and in worst case, this is the DE FACTO (closer to the) truth.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/big-vehicles-put-u-s-auto-makers-back-in-drivers-seat-1421016992?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTWhatsNewsCollection

One teaser ..."Car makers, on average, net an operating profit of as much as $10,000 on every pickup truck sold."...

Mr_Shiftright · January 2015

Saudi Prince says "$100 a barrel oil 'Never Again' "

ruking1 · January 2015

Mr_Shiftright said:
Saudi Prince says "$100 a barrel oil 'Never Again' "

Some would say that RECORD US market car sales (with even better 2015 sales a distinct chance) is a coincidence with the (app -64%) crash of oil prices !!??? I am not on that bandwagon.

With the average mpg @ 24.1, it is not the 30, 40, 50 mpg segments that are hitting new records.

gagrice · January 2015

Mr_Shiftright said:
Saudi Prince says "$100 a barrel oil 'Never Again' "

I tend to believe him. I did not realize he was so anti Saudi government. Makes buying those big old PU trucks and SUVs the way to go. And with auto makers writing Sub prime loans to anyone with a heart beat, should be a great year for BIG auto sales.

PS
Reason I say that a friend barely getting by on disability got a brand new Ford Escort with NO money down. We have helped him with his rent. Not sure how he will make car payments.

elias · January 2015

When one has a surplus of cash, diesel is a fun hobby. I enjoyed it for about 450k miles and a decade, while putting a couple hundred thousand miles on gassers too.

But with recent vehicle offerings, and without the upfront cash to burn, it's just too costly to get into the diesel vehicle club.

When I next do have the upfront cash to burn on a lux/performance car or a small truck I will probably select a gasser vehicle with a stickshift, rather than a diesel.

This 4-time VW TDI owner says: boo to diesel vehicles, especially in winter. On frozen winter mornings, how many diesel owners in the "north country" have freezing legs/arms/hands along with overheated keysters & seat-heaters in their diesel cars?

Gassers are just so much better than diesels now, and with almost the same mpg, and less expensive to operate than diesels too, unless you live in Eugene Oregon and drive a logging bigrig and/or VW 2-reg TDI.

gagrice · January 2015

Elias says: When one has a surplus of cash, diesel is a fun hobby. I enjoyed it for about 450k miles and a decade, while putting a couple hundred thousand miles on gassers too.
On frozen winter mornings, many diesel owners have freezing legs/arms/hands along with overheated keysters & seat-heaters in their diesel cars?

I think your first statement about surplus cash solves your second problem. After working 37 years in the frozen Arctic I moved where it is warm and bought a diesel with my surplus cash. Online is the only place I am pro diesel. I NEVER recommend them to friends and family. I rarely recommend any kind of vehicle. I did recommend a Prius to a Pastor friend that was putting 50k miles a year around town on a Toyota Tacoma. He is on his second Prius and loves it. Why I have no idea as it would be way down my list of cars to buy. He only averages about 40 MPG as he is Not one of the Eco nuts that waddles along in the fast lane at 55 MPH. I followed him to Los Angeles and was worried about getting a ticket the whole trip. He moved to Boise, so waiting to hear if it works for him in the snow. Maybe after I have 450k miles on diesel vehicles I will reconsider. I don't think I will live that long though. I have managed to put 20k on the Touareg TDI in just over a year. Most miles for me in a year ever. Love driving the T-Reg diesel. Best vehicle I have ever owned.

PS
Diesel worked a lot better in the Arctic winters where vehicles are left idling 10-12 hours per day. They all get idling units that keep the RPM at about 1600 to keep the engine warm. Gas engines just do not last as long under those conditions. We also ran number one diesel (JetA) year round. That was all we could get. It did cause issues with the emissions crap on newer Ford Trucks. Seem to run fine with plenty of power.

ruking1 · January 2015

I think you touch on an essential truth, NEW cars (per se) are too expensive. Other than for use in business, as you have alluded, a sharp pencil with BIG erasers are good tools..(cheaper calculator is useful also)

Another obvious thing is to own 1 to 5 year old cars (USED).

Even in 2004 the AVERAGE AGE of a Honda Civic was 44 years old (mine was $12.6k). Since the "financial crash", it is hard to imagine that economic conditions have gotten much better. (To drop that age appreciably) To boot, the new 15 Toyota Corolla gasser/hybrid is app $ 33k MSRP !! ??

It also probably goes without saying that diesel's are market placed @ a premium (aka better margins) . We have not been destined (like Europe and other world markets) to achieve diesel/gasser population parity. So it makes (no US market) sense to sell diesels cheaper (than gassers) to make numbers and/or both %'s ???? Indeed diesel populations are more like less than 2.5% diesel cars to 95% RUG/PUG/gas hybrid.

Again,( ditto, since they are ones nickels) one's choice is ...one's choice. If one wants to use more RUG/PUG than a similar diesel model, again ditto.

I did spend $236 more dollars for my first diesel. The $$'s B/E was in the first quarter. Why I even spent brain cells on that calculation is almost inexplicable in 20/20 hind sight.

I did get a $1,500 IRS tax credit on the 2nd diesel, so that Tax Credit made the diesel a wash, IF I had gotten the like model gasser (no IRS tax credit).

The last one was MSRP MINUS - $500 CHEAPER DIESEL. Fuel mpg on that one is easily 32% better than like model gasser (23.3 vs 30.7 fuelly.com) . (I get app 52% better) So to state the obvious, B/E was/is IMMEDIATE.

To use the 15 GOLF as an example, with 31/43 mpg EPA TDI, 25/36 mpg EPA gasser, over 100,000 miles, one will use between 3,226-2,326 ULSD gals vs 4,000 -2,778 RUG gals. The math indicates app 775 gal-452 gals MORE. So @ today's cornerstore prices (my) $3.04/$ 2.57.per gal. IF that is ALSO less expensive to you, ditto the nickels (EXTRA) . I/We am/are fine with you both using more fuel and @ higher costs. 95% of the passenger vehicle fleet also agree with you.

Over app 350,000 diesel miles, I can't say I have had issues starting the diesels in the cold. I have actually had more gasser starting issues, even as I will call them not memorable. Now I have had dead batteries, aka, not start in diesels and gassers.

NEWS FLASH: Talking heads on CNBC interviewing the Ford CEO got him to INFER that the 2025 CAFE standards will probably be WAY onerous to not CHANGE, albeit down ward. Taxes, jobs, union membership, industry health and infrastructure would be SOME of the KEY losses, as they ogled the new FORD F150 !

It makes the 12 VW Touareg TDI @ 35 mpg look like a fuel sipper !! Without a F150 diesel and no radical gasser technology innovations, me projects out loud that 25 mpg is about MAX for that traveling shoe box.

Meanwhile ,crude oil prices are crashing.

stever · January 2015

ruking1 said:
Another obvious thing is to own 1 to 5 year old cars (USED).

Sometimes it's cheaper to buy a new one though, expecially Hondas.

@gagrice, your pastor friend will maybe have trouble 2 or 3 days a year with snow, unless he tries to drive to it.

The new "Cummins" diesel Titan goes on display in Detroit this week. Autoweek has an early blurb.

gagrice · January 2015

The new "Cummins" diesel Titan goes on display in Detroit this week. Autoweek has an early blurb.

Still Over Kill for my needs and I would guess the needs of over half the PU owners. The T6 Ranger with a 2.2L TDCi looks perfect to me.

Our reader “Lonestar” caught the global Ford Ranger on a car carrier in Broward County, Florida. He said that rest of the transporter was filled with new Mercedes-Benz cars and crossovers. According to the badging on the quad-cab truck, this Ranger features the 3.2-liter, five cylinder turbo diesel that pumps out 197 hp and 347 lb-ft of torque. If this sounds familiar, it is because Ford has already certified this motor for North American use in the new full-size Transit van.

Still over kill for me. The four cylinder 2.2L will do just fine.

ruking1 · January 2015

stever said:

ruking1 said:
Another obvious thing is to own 1 to 5 year old cars (USED).
Sometimes it's cheaper to buy a new one though, expecially Hondas.

@gagrice, your pastor friend will maybe have trouble 2 or 3 days a year with snow, unless he tries to drive to it.

The new "Cummins" diesel Titan goes on display in Detroit this week. Autoweek has an early blurb.

Yes, another reason why I wish Honda did DIESEL like models. I am actually pretty happy with my .032 cent per mile driven: DEPRECIATION. Consumable parts on the VW lasts far longer !! b??

ruking1 · January 2015

gagrice said:
The new "Cummins" diesel Titan goes on display in Detroit this week. Autoweek has an early blurb.

Still Over Kill for my needs and I would guess the needs of over half the PU owners. The T6 Ranger with a 2.2L TDCi looks perfect to me.

Our reader “Lonestar” caught the global Ford Ranger on a car carrier in Broward County, Florida. He said that rest of the transporter was filled with new Mercedes-Benz cars and crossovers. According to the badging on the quad-cab truck, this Ranger features the 3.2-liter, five cylinder turbo diesel that pumps out 197 hp and 347 lb-ft of torque. If this sounds familiar, it is because Ford has already certified this motor for North American use in the new full-size Transit van.

Still over kill for me. The four cylinder 2.2L will do just fine.

There has to be huge forces holding back diesel engine companies like Cummins from all ahead full building of I 4, V & I 6 , to V8, PVF diesels engines ! Evidently the industry and job stimulation in this sector is little to no concern to the current administration, going back to 6 years and probably LONGER.
http://cumminsengines.com/cummins-5L-V8-turbo-diesel

But then here is an outlier Cummins TDI engine @ 896,000 miles ! ? No real TMI details.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro0Sy5ehXmg&spfreload=10

dudleyr · January 2015

Just got back from 4,600 miles of holiday driving. Diesel was pretty close to 50% more than gas for the trip. Biggest difference was in Ohio (picture).

Cheapest gas was $1.64.9, but I think it is even lower in St. Louis area now. This is an insane price drop.

ruking1 · January 2015

Yep ! I can't wait till it starts to effect ULSD prices (@ 1.88 ULSD !!!!! 30/35/38/40/50 would post CPMD: fuel of .0627/.0537/.0495/.047/.0376 cents !!!

Send that Ohio fuel price insanity to CA !!!!

Mr_Shiftright · January 2015

The Senate is contemplating a federal hike on gas taxes, and with the volatility of the global economy, and increased concerns of GW kicking in from the sober side of the spectrum, I wouldn't place any bets on gas or diesel staying cheap for too long. I mean, I hope it does, but I'm still trying to say in the 20 mpg range or above.

ruking1 · January 2015

Mr_Shiftright said:
The Senate is contemplating a federal hike on gas taxes, and with the volatility of the global economy, and increased concerns of GW kicking in from the sober side of the spectrum, I wouldn't place any bets on gas or diesel staying cheap for too long. I mean, I hope it does, but I'm still trying to say in the 20 mpg range or above.

Where is Senator Harry Reid when you need him !! ??? He should bury that gas tax hike !!

Unfortunately i agree. It is being done for geopolitical reasons only. So yes, travel while one can. $1.55 per gal in Oklahoma City, OK !! ??

Funny, these price surprises really are not altering my travel miles !! ??? With the CRASH in natural gas, coal prices it is also having no to little effect on both electricity prices and natural gas home heating prices, aka the utility company /s government agency's are the principle beneficiaries !! ??

API lists CA diesel taxes @ .6379 cents per gal. http://www.api.org/~/media/files/statistics/state-motor-fuel-taxes-report-january-2015.pdf

So if I am to take diesel fuel @ $2.63 (good price for here, right now?) , that means the retail price is app $ 1.99, taxes being a minimum of 32% !!!!! ???? So they want to raise TAXES !! ?????? GEEZZZZZZ !!!!

So we vilify oil companies IF they make 7 to 9% on a number lower than the 1.99 per gal EXAMPLE ???? So @ most up and down the food chain oil companies make . 18 cents and give half back in Corp taxation for after tax revenue of 9 cents or 5%???

Mr_Shiftright · January 2015

https://youtube.com/watch?v=SKRma7PDW10

gagrice · January 2015

ruking: Funny, these price surprises really are not altering my travel miles !! ???

Me neither. Though I do like to find the cheapest stations before I hit the road. Our April trip we will hit the coast around Eureka, CA and I see Bandon/Qoquille have good diesel prices. In fact they are selling diesel for the same or less than RUG. Ain't that a switch? RUG $2.49 Diesel $2.33 so eat your heart out in Ohio.

http://www.oregongasprices.com/Chevron_Gas_Stations/Bandon/144176/index.aspx

http://www.oregongasprices.com/Chevron_Gas_Stations/Coquille/35540/index.aspx

I would not mind another dime a gallon if it is ONLY for fixing roads and bridges. You know how politicians are once they get a buck of your money. They use it to buy more votes.

ruking1 · January 2015

gagrice said:
ruking: Funny, these price surprises really are not altering my travel miles !! ???

Me neither. Though I do like to find the cheapest stations before I hit the road. Our April trip we will hit the coast around Eureka, CA and I see Bandon/Qoquille have good diesel prices. In fact they are selling diesel for the same or less than RUG. Ain't that a switch? RUG $2.49 Diesel $2.33 so eat your heart out in Ohio.

http://www.oregongasprices.com/Chevron_Gas_Stations/Bandon/144176/index.aspx

http://www.oregongasprices.com/Chevron_Gas_Stations/Coquille/35540/index.aspx

I would not mind another dime a gallon if it is ONLY for fixing roads and bridges. You know how politicians are once they get a buck of your money. They use it to buy more votes.

I also do not see the majority of drivers going nutso and vacationing in Oklahoma because fuel right now is $1.55 a gal? Regression to the mean is one HUGE barrier. So 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year will probably be 2015's AVERAGE on the 15 NHTSA FARS data page in say 3 years (AKA NO CHANGE.) http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx (formula VMT (B)/ RLD (T) ) Arithmetically was a TAD over 14,000 miles in 2012.

I had a brain fart or should I say got locked out, when I tried to correct the mistake, and used the wrong figure for diesel taxation, which should be @ 65 cents per gal, rather than @ the .6379 RUG/PUG taxation. So, .... taxation on YOUR $2.33 example will be more like 39% !!!! A .10 cent bump would up that to 47%

nyccarguy · January 2015

I don't want to get into the whole political debate about the price of ULSD and why it isn't going down at the same rate as RUG/PUG. What I do know is that I paid A LOT less to fill up my oil tank (275 gal #2) back in December ($2.47/gal x 200 gal) as opposed to the last time I filled up ($3.54/gal x 200 gal) back in September. So ULSD should be going down, but it ain't. Something's fishy in Denmark:)

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