Engine Oil--A slippery subject

tonewheel · November 1999

I'll post this here for the third time. I contacted Mobil directly about the subject of using synthetic oil out of the gate. Here is their reply, word for word:

"You can start using Mobil 1 in new vehicles at any time. In fact, Mobil 1 is the factory fill in Corvette LS1, LT-1 and LT-5 engines. And Mobil and Porsche just announced a new partnership that will also have all Porsche cars manufactured at the Zuffenhausen plant lubricated with Mobil 1. One of the myths that persists about Mobil 1 is that new engines require a break-in period with conventional oil. Current engine
manufacturing technology does not require this break-in period. As the decisions by the engineers who design the Corvette and Porsche engines indicate, Mobil 1 can be used in an engine from the day you drive the car off the show room floor.

The 30 designation identifies that all three grades (0W-30, 5W-30 and 10W-30) will exhibit the same oil viscosity at normal engine operating
temperatures. The W designation identifies the low temperature viscosity. A smaller number indicates an ability to flow at lower temperatures. In summary, Mobil 1 0W-30 will provide the correct viscosity protection at normal engine operating temperatures, and BETTER
protection at low temperature extremes for any vehicle that calls for a 5W-30 or 10W-30 engine oil.

If you have any additional questions, you may contact us at our E-mail address: lubes@ffx.mobil.com or by phone at 1-800-ASKMOBIL."

lovejoy2 · November 1999

I apologize if this question has already been answered before,but is the oil change interval different for synthetic oils vs. mineral bassed oils.My new car owners manual calls for changing the oil every 4 months, or 4,000 miles. If I use a synthetic,do I still follow this schedule? Thank you....

rs_petty · November 1999

I've read most of the posts around on this. My take is there is no definitive answer. I think most would agree to follow the recommended schedule with either synthetic or dead dino, or change more frequently. A lot of folks still like the 3000 mile changes because they feel better about it. I'm going to switch my wife's car to Mobil 1 at 12,000 change and see how the monitor reacts to it. Some however have extended their change schedules based on synthetic. Your car, your choice basically.

terry43 · November 1999

I have a 1988 Mercury(5.0 Liter Engine) with 180,000 miles on it and it continues to run great with practically no oil consumption. It is our family car and I refuse to replace it until it shows some sign of a major problem being on its way. I use Amsoil 20w-50 synthetic and change the oil and filter every 10,000 to 12,000 miles. My son bought a F150 Truck and we have it on Amsoil 10w-30 100% synthetic. It has nearly 100,000 miles on it. I use to shutter at the thought of changing oil at those intervals but no more. Mercedes have an oil change monitor that I hear will allow you to go as far as 25,000 miles on a change if synthetic oil is used. When I buy a new car I plan to do the same as I have already proven works and save our natural resources and my time since I change my own oil.

isellhondas · November 1999

Is that a brand? This doesn't have anything (perish the thought) to do with Amway does it?

frozentundra1 · November 1999

One and the same.

Can I come into your house for a minute. . .

I used Amsoil and was very dissatisfied. It foamed on me. Thought I had a gasket leak. Changed back to Mobil 1 and it went away. Tried Amsoil a few years lates, and same thing.

I think it's a paraffin-based synthetic rather than Mobil 1's olefin-base, which as I read it, is preferable according to the literature.

I miss those Amway parties, and the Moonies at the airports. Man, I'm teary-eyed when I think of those great 70s. Jimmy Carter. Prime Rate of 19.5%. Hostages in Iran. But I digress. . .

Keep your door locked.
-psycho

popepad · November 1999

You're okay. Need more like you on this page.

drshall · November 1999

I have a 1991 Mazda Miata and a 1991 Isuzu 4WD PU with the GMC 3.1 V6. Both have more than 150,000 miles, using Syntec from 1996 (Mobile 1 before that), with synthetic oils from the first oil change. I change oil as it starts to darken, about every 5,000 miles or so. Neither of the cars require oil between changes. Naturally, your mileage and experience may vary, but I'm happy with the results.

blugill · November 1999

Amway is NOT amsoil, and they are not related. Amway does sell a syntheitc, but comparing the price of amway oil to amsoil leaves to suspect amway is reselling mobil-1 or some other sysnthetic oil.

gus · November 1999

While it may not be related to Amway, is there any truth to the rumor that AmsOil is also some sort of multi-level marketing product? I'm not saying it is, and I'm not saying it's not. I'm just repeating what I've heard. Maybe someone can confirm or dispell this rumor.

te5 · November 1999

I see a lot of the posts for this topic indicate
that people are changing their oil at 3000 miles.
Now I know why filter and oil manufacturers
encourage this. I also know why garages and quick
lubes encourage this. (Money, money, money)

I have always (the last 23 years) followed the
manufacturer's recommendations and have never
changed oil more often than 6000 mile intervals. I
recall that Consumer Reports did a test on New York taxi cabs that proved no measurable difference in engine wear with more frequent oil changes than those recommended by the manufacturer. Do folks just like buying lots of oil, or am I missing something?

sadsack1 · November 1999

i was faced with the same dilemma.
everyone talks about 3000 mile oil changes, whereas my car owners manual specifies 5000 miles or 5 months. after a lot of pondering, i decided to go with synthetic oil and follow the manufactures recommendation of 5000 miles.
my dealer said that was ok.

markbuck · November 1999

Same people at work that:
1) sell diet products
2) belive and take in ginko shcmalbowa

now have "amsoil" dealerships.

Amsoil is sponsoring a MX racer for the 2000 series (my passion is motorcycles), so what the hell, I might give 'em a try.

PS My Silverado asks for an oil change every 3 to 4 thousand miles. It doesn't say, "oh, you are running synthetic, you can go further". I still believe in oil change every 2 to 3 months.

Hell, we change our wet clutch off road race 4stroke's oil every time we ride, and many of us use $5/qt synthetic.

ois99 · November 1999

I have a 1998 ISUZU TROOPER.

The dealer daid I have use 10W-40
At 2000 miles I changed to Castrol 10W-40
However I read article said that 10W-40 is not a good oil.

At 4000 miles I changed again Castrol 10w-40

At 6000 miles I changed to Mobil 1 5w-30

At 12000 miles I changed to Mobile 1 10w-30 (summer)

At 17000 miles I chnaged to Mobile 1 5w-30 for comming winter..

Should I use 0w-30 other than 5w-30 any disadvantage?

Among these oil I feel Castrol provide best mileage 19 to 20 highway. then Mobil 1 5w-30 18-19 then Mobil 1 10w-30 18. So better mileage means better oil? I will keep useing synthetic oil. Just need some connection between mileage vs systhetic oil.

any comment is welcome

gus · November 1999

re: new york taxis--

the standard comeback line to this test has always been "but new york taxis don't do the same number of starts as a regular, non-commercial vehicle." Start-ups put quite a bit of wear on the engine, and when oil breaks down (as it does when it gets old) even more wear occurs. This point about start-ups seems valid and important. Whether or not the cabs really do as many starts as a non-commercial car is up for debate.

I'd look at that test as just that--a test. I wouldn't accept it as the last word on oil changes, though.

dhoff · November 1999

The problem I have with the taxi test was that they only tested out to about 60,000 miles. They found that there was no significant wear with any of the oils they tested. This is pretty much what one would expect. This isn't the fifties anymore, and engines generally don't wear out anymore before 100,000 miles.

What they should have done was test out to 100,000 miles or beyond. Then they should have been able to really see the differences in wear between different oils.

Dave

edwardh3 · November 1999

Probably money.
Jiffy Lube has no third party data to support a change at 3000 miles, so their recommendation is based on "marketing" thats scary.
Garages say "it works" - I guess it does, changing at 2000 miles will work too, and so will changing every 500 miles.
I liked consumer reports testing (NYC cabs about 95 % of them shut off and cool down at night), so I switched to 5000 miles change frequency. The local mercedes dealer tells me many of their computers say change at 10,000.

jcwidman · November 1999

My daughter just bought a new Volkswagen Passat. I asked the Service Manager if there was any objection to using Mobil1. He said no, it is an excellent oil, but wait until the 10,000 oil change to start using it. (Mfr. policy is to have oil changed every 5,000 miles.) It needs this time of low (but not zero) wear to get the rings seated properly. His answer was prompt, giving me the impression it was company policy and not off the top of his head, so to speak.

Your respondant quoting Mobil Corporation opinion may be well be right. But there is obviously not agreement about this subject. Since VW has a 100,000 mile/10 year drive train warranty, which we don't want to cast doubts on about proper treatment of the engine, my inclination would be to follow their (VW) advice and take the minimal wear of the first 10,000 miles of using conventional oil.

You may be better off following the recommendation of those who are warranting your vehicle.

gus · November 1999

It's a sales gimmick. If a manufacturer can point to their car and say, you'll only spend x on maintenance over the life of this vehicle, and if their "x" value is lower than a competitor's "y" value, then don't you think their car is more attractive to a cost-conscious buyer? How do you lower that maintenance value? By extending oil changes and major service items like timing belts, spark plugs, fuel filters, valve adjustments, etc. Some cars have components that'll last that long, and some don't.

Many people regard a 3000 mile oil change as a "safe" period. The oil probably hasn't broken down that much, but why let it. 5000 miles for an oil change is not bad either, although you're more likely to be "pushing the envelope" in terms of oil break-down. 10,000 miles seems a bit much. Maybe a MBZ engine can take it, but I'd tend to doubt it.

dhoff · November 1999

Volkswagon (as well as Honda) uses a specially formulated "break-in oil". This oil should be kept in until the factory recommended first change interval. It would surprise me if the first change was supposed to be at 10,000 miles though.

There are usually 2 maintenance schedules in the owner's manual. One is for "severe" duty (which is what most people actually do) and one is for strictly highway driving. I'm guessing the 10,000 mile figure is based on the highway-only schedule. The other schedule probably recommends oil changes at half the mileage.

I listen to a local radio show hosted by a well-respected automotive specialist. He recommends changing to synthetic oil on a new car between 4,000 and 40,000 miles. Sounds reasonable to me.

Dave

jcwidman · November 1999

Perhaps you misunderstood. The 10,000 mile oil change is the second oil change. I never meant to suggest that we would skip the first oil change at 5,000 miles.

Part of the deal at VW is *they* (VW) change the oil for the first 24,000 miles. So they are in control of what goes into it until we give them Mobil1 to put in. He is saying wait until the second oil change at 10,000 miles to start M1.

inky · November 1999

It is no wonder that no one seems to have bought a couple of modern dohc V-6's, put in a lab with varying startup and temperature, and varied the oil type and interval and then tear engine apart at 100,000 miles. This oil subject seems so opinionated. I tend to believe that a lack of data exists because the oil companies know that over 100,000 miles that synthetic, dino or 3,000 vs 7,500 makes no significant difference for most of us. Consumer reports is probably right about the longer intervals and any oil with a starburst recommendation. I cannot prove it, so why do I feel it necessary in my being to buy an expensive synthetic for my Lexus when there may be no real benefit over the long term?
INKY

snowman · November 1999

I don't know how others feel about synt.oil when they drive their cars but I have been using synt.oil since last 5 years and I feel my car runs smooter. Even I get the end of interval which is 5k no sound from valves. I remember that when I was using dino oil, the valves were getting noisy after 2.5K. Now I have 99 Accord, I feel the difference when I push the gas pedal.

frozentundra1 · November 1999

Regarding the 0-W30 question, it's not the fact that it's synthetic that gives you the gas mileage. It's the viscosity that makes the difference. BS you say. Well you're half right. The Synth.oil is indeed slipprier than mineral.oil, but compared with viscosity grade it's a second order effect. Try it yourself -- on an old car -- if you're suspicious. Run a premium synthetic (say Mobil 1 15-w50) for 5000 mi and then run good old Valvoline 5 W30. You'll get better gas milage with any 5W30 (synth or not) compared with a 10W or 15W.

The point is, synthetics still retain their protective properties at those low viscosities, so you should always use the lowest Synth viscosity allowed by your owner's manual.

Most syth oil manuf recommend that you NOT use their product until at least after 10K miles because the synth is too slippery and does not allow the rings to seat properly. i've never understood the Corvette's use of Mob 1 from the beginning. There's nothing special about the break-in oil, since about 1975. It's just that you need enough friction (and wear) to set things right before you use synth.oil and slow things down.

I use synth and I change it every 5000-6000 miles, despite claims of longevity. Click and Clack, the Tappet Bros, from CAR TALK, used to adamently recommend an oil change on all cars at 3K. They've changed their tune to 5K based on the superior quality of oil since about the SG and SH grades.

Relax. Forget about the car. Go outside tonight and check out the Leonid meteor shower, perhaps the best showing in 33 years, with an estimated 1000 falling stars per hour (one every 3 seconds?)

More later, gents.
-psycho.

cheapowner · November 1999

Both BMW and MB have larger oil capacity compare to comparable US or Japanese Engine. The newer MB 3 valve engines have about 8.5 quart and use dieletric to measure oil quality. The dealer said most of oil change reminder occurs between 7500 to 12000 miles.

inky · November 1999

After reading for days from manufacturer specs and the famous oil filter comparo done by the electrical engineer, I have become convinced that using a good synthetic and a rather average filter like fram is not smart. The data for AC delco duraguard gold (8.99 at pep boys!) shows superior flow and filtering of 8-10 micron size particles. Good medium priced filters seem to be pureone by purolator, tough guard by Fram and other purolator clones. I just put mobil 5w30 and a duraguard gold fitler on my Lexus. Cost was high ($30) but will see if oil stays any cleaner and run for 5-6,000 miles before changing.
INKY check out tests at acdelco.com

rs_petty · November 1999

inky, I would really appreciate getting your comments. I'm looking at the same combination for my Tundra.

kewldude · November 1999

A buddy of mine has a degree in Petro-Chemical Engineering. He and I have discussed the issue of changing oil since I bought a brand new Honda in March. He says that the break in oil that some manufacturers put in their cars is just a non-detergent oil. There are no special, mysterious qualities to break in oil. They just use non-detergent oil because there is no need for detergents in a brand new engine. Obviously, you don't want to use non-detergent oil past the initial break in.

inky · November 1999

has anyone tried mobil 0w30? I guess this is for very cold climates?
INKY

mitch888 · November 1999

I purchased a 1999 honda accord lx sedan late in August and it now has about 1500 miles on it. The manufacturer recommends an oil change at 3500 miles. When should I change the oil? What kind to use? Castrol 10/30 for winter? I live in the northwest. What about additives? Anyone got any ideas? Thanks.

vac23 · November 1999

I usually have my first oil change on a new car at about 1000 miles. This help get rid of any particles that may be in the oil from a new engine being broken in. I would use whatever oil the manuel says. I use synthetic oil on my vehicle

sadsack1 · November 1999

i'm currently using valvoline synthetic, but plan on switching to mobil 1 during my next oil change on my 99 mazda protege.
my manual recommends 5w30 in the winter and 10w30 otherwise.
if you use synthetic, manufacturers recommend against using any oil additives (check out the faq section on the castrol website www.castrol.com)

edwardh3 · November 1999

try

http://minimopar.simplenet.com/oilfilterstudy.html

they don't like Fram, or Champion.

clintonjohn · November 1999

for those who say they're switching to a high end filter and will then look to see how 'clean' the oil is at the next change, I would have to think you'd have to look under a microscope to see any appreciable difference between oil filtered through a $10 vs. $2.50 filter. At what point does the size of the contaminants become redundant? I cannot imagine that a filter that filters 5 micron particles will be that much more protective than a 10 micro filter. We're talking minute particles. Are these the ones that cause engine damage or is it the bigger particles that the cheaper filters would catch? I've used the el cheapo filters with regular oil changes at 3-5k. I also typically use the cheaper oils like wal marts tech 2000(not the remanufactured oil). 168k on my 92 geo tracker with no problems. i suppose if you've got a MB or lexus, then the peace of mind for you investment is worth the additional cost of the expensive oils and filters. I do switch to semisyn in the winter, though(my little peace of mind.)

markbuck · November 1999

with the previous post.....

edwardh3 · November 1999

most of the differences seem to be in filter area, case strength, and in construction of anti drain back valves and the pressure relief valves and if or not metal is used vs "cardboard" as in the fram filters.
I agree about the size, I have heard that below 25 microns it does not hurt anything. There are differences in the filters tho and in some cases u get what u pay 4.
Suggest read the site.

mwikle · November 1999

I work for a major oil company, and based on info from OEMs, we generally teach that the "nominal" filtration of 20 to 25 microns provided by a typical auto filter is fine to prevent damage. This is base on the clearances typical in the "tighest" bearings in and engine. The OEM spec's this a part of the design.

Note that "extra filtration" and large capacity filtration is not necessarily a bad thing at all, kinda like "insurance", and may provide some benefit. But, I don't put 200K+ on my engine befor the rest of it is likely to be in a state of disrepair (& sale). Good quality oils and filters will get a good life from the average vehicle.

My personal opinion, based on looking inside some filters, is that some of the internal construction of the $2 filters of some national brands may not be as good as i'd prefer (especially paper endcaps, and poor anti-drainback valves). I'm assuming most do a decent job filtering, and the bigger risk is failure or wear from oil drainback at start.

mxylplik2 · November 1999

Instead of conventional oil from the Toyota dealer, I want to start using Mobil 1 Synthetic. But I fear that the outside mechanic may decide to mess around with car by creating problems (more business for him), switching parts, etc. There is much less incentive for the Toyota dealer to do such things as they comes across the same exact car everyday and they have to fix anything that's broken (still under warranty).

I can't really watch "everything" that the outside mechanic does and I don't want to / can't change the oil myself.

1. Does the benefits from switching to synthetics outweigh the potential that the outside mechanic will mess around with something on the car?

2. How honest / dishonest are the average mechanics out there? Do I have unfounded worries or has someone experienced those very same problems? Your feedback is much appreciated.

Ed
edandty@msn.com

mxylplik2 · November 1999

Instead of conventional oil from the Toyota dealer, I want to start using Mobil 1 Synthetic. But I fear that the outside mechanic may decide to mess around with car by creating problems (more business for him), switching parts, etc. There is much less incentive for the Toyota dealer to do such things as they comes across the same exact car everyday and they have to fix anything that's broken (still under warranty).

I can't really watch "everything" that the outside mechanic does and I don't want to / can't change the oil myself.

1. Does the benefits from switching to synthetics outweigh the potential that the outside mechanic will mess around with something on the car?

2. How honest / dishonest are the average mechanics out there? Do I have unfounded worries or has someone experienced those very same problems? Your feedback is much appreciated.

Ed
edandty@msn.com

div2 · November 1999

I think your fears are largely unfounded. A good independant can be just as competent- if not better- than a dealer. I use independents for my Nissan and BMW maintenance with no regrets. The key is to find a good mechanic who is familiar with your car. Ask around, get references, check with the BBB. And remember, dealer service can often be a joke. If you trust your dealer, why not simply buy the Mobil 1 and bring it to him to change?

igloomaster · November 1999

I bought a new 99 Honda Civic Hatchback in August.
The Owners Manual indicates that it is not necessary to warm the engine up for longer than 2 minutes, even in cold weather. The manual goes so far as to say that the car will warm up faster if you simply drive it shortly after ignition.

This seems to contradict everything I have been taught over the years about letting an engine warm up, ESPECIALLY in the winter, so that the oil can thin out and reach the top of the cylinders. I thought this was necessary to prevent excessive engine wear.

Have I been misinformed all these years? Am I doing my little 4 cylinder engine harm by ignoring what the manual says, and allowing it a good 5 minutes or more of warm-up time in the cold winter morning? I like to see that temperature gauge start to move before I go racing off to work.

dhoff · November 1999

I think how long you warm up the car depends on how cold it is. My rule of thumb is to let the car warm for 10 minutes or so if it is below zero F. I don't let it warm up at all if it above this temperature. I would just drive very gently until it started to warm up. I really don't think it is necessary to always let it warm up. The exception may be if you live on a major thoroughfare or highway where you have to really get on the gas soon after starting the car.

I formerly owned a 91 Mercury Tracer with a 1.9 liter 4 cylinder engine that went 156,000 miles with no engine trouble, so I don't think this method is too bad. I sold it to my brother in law, and it's still going near 200,000 miles and not using any oil.

Dave

bobbybe · November 1999

200K miles on a 1.9L Ford Engine!!!
God Bless You! I have 1 too. No drips,
no leaks so far. I hope I don't jinx myself.

The newer engines come up to operating temp.
much faster than earlier models. My 99 is in the
normal range within a 1/2 mile. Newer cars are
also more sensitive to operating temperature.
The old days of taking out a 195 degree thermostat and putting in a 180 degree one
will screw up all the sensors being monitored by
the onboard computers.

Your advice is good...most car experts say to
drive slowly until reaching operating temp.
But below 0 it is wise to let it sit for a short
time.

igloomaster · November 1999

maybe it's my musician-ears, but I hear a difference in sound that makes me want to let the car warm up when its 30ish degrees out there. when the engine parts are cold, and the oil is thick, the engine sounds slightly different.
it certainly doesn't sound like it's psyched to journey forth even at a slow speed. it sounds like it's telling me to hang out and wait!
so the question remains: even if it is for my own conscience, am I harming my vehicle in any way by letting it warm up for a few minutes before take off?

rs_petty · November 1999

Just visited the Pennzoil web site and it appears that Penn and QS are under the same parent company. Any comments that it is probably the same oil in the yellow and green bottles?

dhoff · November 1999

200K on that Ford engine... Hard to believe but true. If you had told me when I bought the car new I wouldn't have believed it. Did I really want it to last that long? Don't know, but it makes me believe in changing the oil every 3,000 miles. My brother in law sure appreciates it!

Igloomaster, if you think your engine sounds louder at 30 degrees, just wait until you start it at -20. You'd swear it was a diesel! No, you are not harming your engine by letting it warm for a few minutes. It will just cost you a bit ao gas mileage and time, but give you a little peace of mind. You may also be contaminating the oil a bit more, but if your commute is long enough to warm the oil to operating temperature, this shouldn't be a problem.

Dave

dhoff · November 1999

Igloo, depending on where you live & park your car, you may want to consider installing a block heater. (Just put it on a timer so it's not heating all night, those things suck a lot of power). This will keep your engine toasty warm and give you heat as soon as you start the car.

Just remember to unplug it before you drive off.

Dave

spokane · December 1999

I, too, have enjoyed good engine longevity on several engines and heartily endorse the points made by dhoff. Avoidance of hard acceleration during the first few miles, even in warm weather, is important for long engine life.

Another related suggestion: Avoid, as much as is practical, starting a cold engine and then stopping it before it reaches operating temperature. The "classic" error is moving the cold-engined car from the driveway into the garage late each evening. Such a practice accentuates the accumulation of condensed products of combustion in the crankcase.

igloomaster · December 1999

all are very good points, and well taken. Grazie, Saluti, Igloo

clintonjohn · December 1999

I've heard the shift in conventional wisdom as well. from what i've gathered, it's now suggested that rather than letting the car idle for 5 minutes, you're "better off" starting and driving relatively slow for a few minutes. I would think this would be the way to go because doesn't driving, even at slow rpms, increase the oil pressure and thus oil to the needed parts, more so than idling? As far as winter goes, I like to mix 2 quarts synthetic in the case. Probably not necessary, but cheap peace of mind. My car sits out every chicago or minneapolis winter and haven't had any problems even at 170k miles so far. I must confess, though, that when I lived in MN, I did let the car warm up for 15 minutes with the heat on just so I could get in a warm car with windows defrosted.

Engine Oil--A slippery subject

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