Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

houdini1 · August 2015

There is only one Lexus dealer in KC with 2 locations, one in Kansas and one in Missouri. I have bought several cars there, but with a good bit of haggling. I have also bought cars from the Lexus dealer in Omaha and in St. Louis when I felt I could not get a fair price in KC. I don't mind a little drive at all.

isellhondas · August 2015

The first Saturns weren't "bad" cars but as they evolved they got worse. The also picked some oddball locations for their stores. a know a lot of shoppers DIDN'T like paying full price.

I used to work with a guy who called them "Plastic Vegas".

nelsonf · August 2015

If the dealers set the prices, I don't know how this would work.

If I go to dealer "A", and a new Lexus IS350 is $39,500, and I go to dealer "B" and his price is $39,750, I doubt he's going to let me walk away over 250 bucks.

So, it's back to haggling.

If Lexus sets the price, dealers would have to compete for customers with better service.

Michaell · August 2015

As a prior owner of 4 (count 'em!) Saturns - with one still in the family with over 125K on the clock - I can speak better than most about the Saturn buying and ownership experience.

The first one was the L300 I bought in 2002. I had been shopping V6 sedans for a while - Accord, Passat - and found the L-series to be a great value. Add in the 0% financing that GM was offering and it was a done deal. Wife commented that it was the easiest buying experience she'd ever had.

Then came two VUE's and an ION. Three of the four cars we bought had the injection molded side panels. Yes, the panel gaps were huge compared to a steel bodied car, but they didn't dent and didn't rust. An OK trade off, if you ask me.

Were they perfect? No. Is any car? Again, no. They filled a need for us at the time and we're happy we owned them. The service was pretty good at the dealers I visited.

Yes, the product got a little dated, but I think that was attributed more to the fact that GM simply didn't have enough money to support the seven or eight brands they had with new and differentiating product.

I really thought that Saturn should have become an American Opel. They did bring over the Astra for a year or two, but it never caught on. When GM was faced with bankruptcy, it was an easy decision for them to kill it off.

RIP ...

robr2 · August 2015

nelsonf said:
If the dealers set the prices, I don't know how this would work.

If I go to dealer "A", and a new Lexus IS350 is $39,500, and I go to dealer "B" and his price is $39,750, I doubt he's going to let me walk away over 250 bucks.

So, it's back to haggling.

If Lexus sets the price, dealers would have to compete for customers with better service.

This test will not pit competing dealers. Over the course of the test, Lexus will discover the street prices for their cars. If the decision is made to go national with this plan, I wouldn't be surprised to see the street price become the MSRP.

Michaell · August 2015

robr2 said:

nelsonf said:
If the dealers set the prices, I don't know how this would work.

If I go to dealer "A", and a new Lexus IS350 is $39,500, and I go to dealer "B" and his price is $39,750, I doubt he's going to let me walk away over 250 bucks.

So, it's back to haggling.

If Lexus sets the price, dealers would have to compete for customers with better service.
This test will not pit competing dealers. Over the course of the test, Lexus will discover the street prices for their cars. If the decision is made to go national with this plan, I wouldn't be surprised to see the street price become the MSRP.

I'm wondering if this will be like the Scion pricing model ... not that many Scions are being sold, mind you.

snakeweasel · August 2015

abacomike said:
Carpet layers just left. The place is magnificent! It is so much brighter in the apartment and smells clean.

Ah yes that new rug smell. We had the upstairs carpet replaced a few months ago and the house had that new ~~car~~ house smell to it. It was great.

explorerx4 · August 2015

@snakeweasel, did you sleep on the floor for a while?

snakeweasel · August 2015

explorerx4 said:
@snakeweasel, did you sleep on the floor for a while?

Nope but the dog really likes the carpet, we even took a piece of the extra and have it down where he likes to lie down during the day. he spends a lot of time on it.

bwia · August 2015

Isn't the one price ~~model~~ strategy relegate the dealer to be a glorified order taker? A clever ploy but it will never work on such a high price product. By the way, this sounds not much different from the Tesla pricing approach that does not run a fowl of state dealership franchise arrangements.

carnaught · August 2015

Best Buy isn't really a one price electronics store. They are supposed to meet or beat by 10% any advertised competitor store's price. They haven't stopped doing that to my knowledge.

robr2 · August 2015

bwia said:
Isn't the one price ~~model~~ strategy relegate the dealer to be a glorified order taker? A clever ploy but it will never work on such a high price product. By the way, this sounds not much different from the Tesla pricing approach that does not run a fowl of state dealership franchise arrangements.

IMHO, not it does not relegate the dealer to an order taker. The Lexus still has to be sold against MB, Audi, Cadillac, BMW, et al.

Fixed pricing at the dealer level by the manufacturer is not illegal. Manufacturers can add a MAP (minimum advertised price) policy into the dealer contract and it's perfectly acceptable.

driver100 · August 2015

In Canada Honda pretty much has one price. When my IT guy needed a new Fit he found all the dealers basically give you $500 off, and Honda had a special sale for an extra $500 off. The dealer he went with through in floor mats, but basically all dealers would sell for one price.

My guess is Mercedes (in Canada at least) gives you 2% off if you ask for a discount, and they say 2% more off if you are a repeat customer. But, I think if they feel you are going to walk they'll throw that in too. If all the dealers do they same they keep the value of the cars higher, and they make more profit. A person buying a Lexus, MB, BMW etc just needs a bit of a discount so they know they aren't a sucker paying full MSRP, but, they aren't going to drive 50 miles to save $75.

The more you give deep discounts the more you cheapen your product...if it is priced right to begin with.

driver100 · August 2015

Talk about service. I went in this morning for my 12k mile service including oil change. I prepaid, $1200 for all the servicing. Drove in at 8 a.m., read my newspaper, sat in a few diffewrent models, watched the sports hilights, had a coffee.

Service guy came to get me at 10 a.m. Told me the car was in beautiful condition and it all checked out nicely. My car was washed, interior vacuumed, windows cleaned, tires black. Drove extra nicely when it was all sparkly cleaned. With prepay plan .........cost $0!

ab348 · August 2015

driver100 said:
Talk about service. I went in this morning for my 12k mile service including oil change. I prepaid, $1200 for all the servicing. Drove in at 8 a.m., read my newspaper, sat in a few diffewrent models, watched the sports hilights, had a coffee.

Service guy came to get me at 10 a.m. Told me the car was in beautiful condition and it all checked out nicely. My car was washed, interior vacuumed, windows cleaned, tires black. Drove extra nicely when it was all sparkly cleaned. With prepay plan .........cost $0!

That's nice, isn't it? My Cadillac dealer does the same thing, all at no charge. I normally have them drive me home when I drop it off and later on pick me up when it's ready, but I could wait if I wanted. It's impressive to me that they dress the tires - I don't know why that always makes me feel special.

explorerx4 · August 2015

12k service? That's 2 oil changes/tire rotations for my Fords. Maybe $80 with a coupon.

Michaell · August 2015

driver100 said:

Talk about service. I went in this morning for my 12k mile service including oil change. I prepaid, $1200 for all the servicing. Drove in at 8 a.m., read my newspaper, sat in a few diffewrent models, watched the sports hilights, had a coffee. Service guy came to get me at 10 a.m. Told me the car was in beautiful condition and it all checked out nicely. My car was washed, interior vacuumed, windows cleaned, tires black. Drove extra nicely when it was all sparkly cleaned. With prepay plan .........cost $0!

Yeah, but did they hand wash it?

isellhondas · August 2015

With pre pay plan...cost $0!

Well...except you did prepay for this, right?

houdini1 · August 2015

robr2 said:

bwia said:
Isn't the one price ~~model~~ strategy relegate the dealer to be a glorified order taker? A clever ploy but it will never work on such a high price product. By the way, this sounds not much different from the Tesla pricing approach that does not run a fowl of state dealership franchise arrangements.
IMHO, not it does not relegate the dealer to an order taker. The Lexus still has to be sold against MB, Audi, Cadillac, BMW, et al.

Fixed pricing at the dealer level by the manufacturer is not illegal. Manufacturers can add a MAP (minimum advertised price) policy into the dealer contract and it's perfectly acceptable.

They should just charge $10,000. for an LS 460 and then tack on $75,000 shipping and handling, floor mats, prepaid service, etc. Just look at the money we would save on taxes !!

driver100 · August 2015

ab348 said:

driver100 said:
Talk about service. I went in this morning for my 12k mile service including oil change. I prepaid, $1200 for all the servicing. Drove in at 8 a.m., read my newspaper, sat in a few diffewrent models, watched the sports hilights, had a coffee.

Service guy came to get me at 10 a.m. Told me the car was in beautiful condition and it all checked out nicely. My car was washed, interior vacuumed, windows cleaned, tires black. Drove extra nicely when it was all sparkly cleaned. With prepay plan .........cost $0!
That's nice, isn't it? My Cadillac dealer does the same thing, all at no charge. I normally have them drive me home when I drop it off and later on pick me up when it's ready, but I could wait if I wanted. It's impressive to me that they dress the tires - I don't know why that always makes me feel special.

Honestly, I feel like a king with the service I get. I think it is very clever, unless I really liked another car or got a deal I couldn't refuse - which probably will never happen - why would I change dealerships.

They would have brought me home but I prefer to read my newspaper, my book, look at the different cars, and people watch. The tires on my 535 went a red brown color. These stay pretty black, but something about them looking like new that feels good.

driver100 · August 2015

Michaell said:

driver100 said:

Talk about service. I went in this morning for my 12k mile service including oil change. I prepaid, $1200 for all the servicing. Drove in at 8 a.m., read my newspaper, sat in a few diffewrent models, watched the sports hilights, had a coffee.

Service guy came to get me at 10 a.m. Told me the car was in beautiful condition and it all checked out nicely. My car was washed, interior vacuumed, windows cleaned, tires black. Drove extra nicely when it was all sparkly cleaned. With prepay plan .........cost $0!

Yeah, but did they hand wash it?

I am not sure how they do it, but it is a really good wash...even the wheels are all done perfect. I don't have special wheels like Mike, so I don't care how they wash it...whatever they do it was 10 out of 10.

dino001 · August 2015

houdini1 said:

robr2 said:

bwia said:
Isn't the one price ~~model~~ strategy relegate the dealer to be a glorified order taker? A clever ploy but it will never work on such a high price product. By the way, this sounds not much different from the Tesla pricing approach that does not run a fowl of state dealership franchise arrangements.
IMHO, not it does not relegate the dealer to an order taker. The Lexus still has to be sold against MB, Audi, Cadillac, BMW, et al.

Fixed pricing at the dealer level by the manufacturer is not illegal. Manufacturers can add a MAP (minimum advertised price) policy into the dealer contract and it's perfectly acceptable.
They should just charge $10,000. for an LS 460 and then tack on $75,000 shipping and handling, floor mats, prepaid service, etc. Just look at the money we would save on taxes !!

You pay tax on those.

driver100 · August 2015

isellhondas said:
With pre pay plan...cost $0!

Well...except you did prepay for this, right?

My brother would take his Honda Civic in for it's yearly check up and oil fill and he often paid around $400 or $500 for that. They do a lot more than change the oil, the car was there for 2 hours....all systems are checked.

I realize I prepay, but it is nice to know I have paid for 4 years, and i don't have to sit in the waiting room fearful I am going to be charged for something that they will try to say was my fault.

Besides, I prepaid, so I feel good...almost guilty getting all this service and ambiance and getting a bill that says $0.

roadburner · August 2015

Today a friend of mine asked if I'd go with him while he went to buy a car(a new Explorer- Meh.); I agreed of course and off we went to the dealer he had been negotiating with. The price on the new Exploder was good, but they hit his trade(an immaculate KIA Forte SX)at $1800 under the offer he had received from CarMax. They gave all sorts of BS excuses as to why, even saying KIAs aren't hot sellers in Louisville- guess that's why there are only four KIA dealers in the area. My buddy is retired Army and has a very low tolerance for BS and almost walked. The dealer eventually matched CarMax and the deal was done. The remainder of the buying process was smooth and low pressure; he already had financing and the F&I lady didn't push anything.
As for the truck, he wanted me to drive it home. It was a nice sled for what it is, but probably close to ten millionth on my list of cars I'd like to own.

qbrozen · August 2015

So I posted my info to a handful of websites regarding the Fit. Got lots of online offers that were ridiculously low and a huge range from other places. Autolenders has been harassing me nonstop every day since, so I ran over there today, knowing I was probably wasting my time. And I was. Granted, they were $1k above carmax, but still too low for my liking.

I've now posted it on craigs and ebay to see what happens. I've advertised it for only about $1500 above Manheim value, so it should technically be a better deal than any dealer is going to offer; however, it isn't all that much lower than you could buy a new one for. That does seem to be the Honda way, though. But, hey, I'm negotiable.

[Deleted User] · August 2015

driver100 said:
The tires on my 535 went a red brown color. These stay pretty black, but something about them looking like new that feels good.

That brown finish is a substance called antiozonant and it's a good thing to see, though a bit unsightly compared to a nice black tire. Have you noticed modern tires resist cracking better than tires from decades ago? That's the antiozonant at work. The substance is loaded throughout the tire and constantly works towards the surface as you drive along and cause the tire to flex. An all-wheel cleaner safe for aluminum followed by some 303 Aerospace Protectant or other dressing will keep the tires looking nice.

venture · August 2015

roadburner said:
Today a friend of mine asked if I'd go with him while he went to buy a car(a new Explorer- Meh.); I agreed of course and off we went to the dealer he had been negotiating with. The price on the new Exploder was good, but they hit his trade(an immaculate KIA Forte SX)at $1800 under the offer he had received from CarMax. They gave all sorts of BS excuses as to why, even saying KIAs aren't hot sellers in Louisville- guess that's why there are only four KIA dealers in the area. My buddy is retired Army and has a very low tolerance for BS and almost walked. The dealer eventually matched CarMax and the deal was done. The remainder of the buying process was smooth and low pressure; he already had financing and the F&I lady didn't push anything.
As for the truck, he wanted me to drive it home. It was a nice sled for what it is, but probably close to ten millionth on my list of cars I'd like to own.

I share your anguish. When a girl t-boned my Regal I had an Explorer rental for a few weeks. I guess if you have people to move they are OK, but not my style.

I've seen a BMW i8 in the neighborhood a few times in the last week. Always a lady driving it and she is always smiling.

A few days ago a Polaris Slingshot went by. Talk about nudging both ends of the automotive (motorcycle) spectrum.

driver100 · August 2015

qbrozen said:
So I posted my info to a handful of websites regarding the Fit. Got lots of online offers that were ridiculously low and a huge range from other places. Autolenders has been harassing me nonstop every day since, so I ran over there today, knowing I was probably wasting my time. And I was. Granted, they were $1k above carmax, but still too low for my liking.

I've now posted it on craigs and ebay to see what happens. I've advertised it for only about $1500 above Manheim value, so it should technically be a better deal than any dealer is going to offer; however, it isn't all that much lower than you could buy a new one for. That does seem to be the Honda way, though. But, hey, I'm negotiable.

My memory isn't as good as it used to be abrozen....why are you trading in a 2015 Fit? It is really hard to sell a used....especially privately.....car, if you can buy a new one for a little bit more.

Usually the dealer has financing, you have a better chance of solving problems, you could be selling it because of a major problem which a dealer would have to disclose, the 2016s will be out soon, etc. . Driving the car off the lot decreases the value by 20%, now 1 year depreciation decreases value by 15%.

driver100 · August 2015

roadburner said:
Today a friend of mine asked if I'd go with him while he went to buy a car(a new Explorer- Meh.); I agreed of course and off we went to the dealer he had been negotiating with. The price on the new Exploder was good, but they hit his trade(an immaculate KIA Forte SX)at $1800 under the offer he had received from CarMax. They gave all sorts of BS excuses as to why, even saying KIAs aren't hot sellers in Louisville- guess that's why there are only four KIA dealers in the area. My buddy is retired Army and has a very low tolerance for BS and almost walked. The dealer eventually matched CarMax and the deal was done. The remainder of the buying process was smooth and low pressure; he already had financing and the F&I lady didn't push anything.
As for the truck, he wanted me to drive it home. It was a nice sled for what it is, but probably close to ten millionth on my list of cars I'd like to own.

I guess the old fashioned car dealers still try the old tactics. That is the very reason people dread buying a new car....sleazy dealerships. But, I guess they see it as they might as well try, someone will accept their appraisal for the used car. That is inside information I would like to know - how many people actually just go along with the prices they give. Are there some people who are totally nonconfrontational who will just accept whatever the dealer comes up with?

What exactly are the reasons you didn't like driving the Explorer.

abacomike · August 2015

I dropped my car off at the dealer so they could refinish my left wheels. They had to send the wheels to a company in Tampa who specializes in wheel refinishing. It will take about 5 days. So they gave me an E 350 to drive until they complete the job.

bwia · August 2015

Remember the dealer assumes all the risks in a trade. When the dealer resells the vehicle he gives his assurances, implied or express, that car is fit for the purpose it was intended. Not to mention in the event that the trade does not sell quickly enough the dealer has to sell at auction sometimes at a loss.

bwia · August 2015

driver100 said:
Talk about service. I went in this morning for my 12k mile service including oil change. I prepaid, $1200 for all the servicing. Drove in at 8 a.m., read my newspaper, sat in a few diffewrent models, watched the sports hilights, had a coffee.

Service guy came to get me at 10 a.m. Told me the car was in beautiful condition and it all checked out nicely. My car was washed, interior vacuumed, windows cleaned, tires black. Drove extra nicely when it was all sparkly cleaned. With prepay plan .........cost $0!

Nice service experience but at a huge cost. No? If I'm not mistaken, doesn't BMW offer 4 years of free service? Even our decidedly down market Buick Encore came with 2 years of free service, free coffee, high speed internet and HD TV...and did I mention free loaner.

Sounds great until you realize that translate to two free oil changes and tire rotations per year. Cars are so well made today that they require little maintenance extending the ownership experience to over 11 years on average.

qbrozen · August 2015

driver100 said:

My memory isn't as good as it used to be abrozen....why are you trading in a 2015 Fit? It is really hard to sell a used....especially privately.....car, if you can buy a new one for a little bit more.

Usually the dealer has financing, you have a better chance of solving problems, you could be selling it because of a major problem which a dealer would have to disclose, the 2016s will be out soon, etc. . Driving the car off the lot decreases the value by 20%, now 1 year depreciation decreases value by 15%.

Some people want to save a few bucks. We'll see what happens. I'm not trading, just selling. Buying a new house and all, so just trying to clean up the income:expense ratio. Not that I necessarily need to. If it doesn't sell, it doesn't sell. It is a 2015 with 7200 miles, so still plenty of factory warranty, and the car is like new still. According to the dealer auctions, 20% depreciation just doesn't apply to small Hondas.

Honestly, I would have asked for less, but then people would be suspicious. So I'm asking at least a believable price to make shoppers feel better. Makes sense, doesn't it?

As it is, some 2015s are going across the block with less than 100 miles and getting in the mid $14s. How dealers are planning on making a decent profit on those is beyond me, but the numbers are what the numbers are. Mine would likely bring right around $13.5k. I'd be perfectly content taking that for it, but carmax was at $11.5, autolenders was at $12.5, and I got a bid of $12.2 using the truetrade app. Kind of wish there was a way a private citizen could just sell their car at dealer auction. No idea why they would pay more for it there, then pay fees and transport on top of it, rather than if i drive it to them. Oh well.

A private buyer paying $14.5, let's say, would be saving a little over $2k from new. That's not a bad deal for them at all on a Honda since most economy vehicles see about a $2500 difference in value year over year.

Like I said, I really have no problem keeping it. If that happens, then I'll probably try to trade it in October for a CPO S60 for the wife.

driver100 · August 2015

bwia said:

driver100 said:
Talk about service. I went in this morning for my 12k mile service including oil change. I prepaid, $1200 for all the servicing. Drove in at 8 a.m., read my newspaper, sat in a few diffewrent models, watched the sports hilights, had a coffee.

Service guy came to get me at 10 a.m. Told me the car was in beautiful condition and it all checked out nicely. My car was washed, interior vacuumed, windows cleaned, tires black. Drove extra nicely when it was all sparkly cleaned. With prepay plan .........cost $0!
Nice service experience but at a huge cost. No? If I'm not mistaken, doesn't BMW offer 4 years of free service? Even our decidedly down market Buick Encore came with 2 years of free service, free coffee, high speed internet and HD TV...and did I mention free loaner.

Sounds great until you realize that translate to two free oil changes and tire rotations per year. Cars are so well made today that they require little maintenance extending the ownership experience to over 11 years on average.

BMW does offer 4 years complete service...though, the dealer will usually find something they can charge you for......but, generally 4 years of carefree driving.

Mercedes decided to offer a service package as an option. I guess they found they wanted to be more in line with BMW. This way the car appears to have a lower MSRP, and when you buy the car the chances are you will take the service package. It ends up costing a lot less than if you brought the car in each time and did it on your own. They like it too because it brings you back to their dealership rather than going to an indie - they do the work and may sell you something else.

Cost sounds high but they do a complete diagnosis of the car to make sure everything is running at optimum efficiency. It isn't just drain the oil and put some new oil in. It may be my imagination, but, the car seems to run better now.

Making the waiting room experience more pleasant probably pays off in the long run. I remember my old Chrysler dealer having a tiny room with old broken down furniture, ancient magazines, a vending machine for coffee and candy, threadbare furniture and carpets.

I like the peace of mind...I paid my money up front to protect my investment, and i don't have to worry about them finding something I wasn't counting on.

On the other hand...we lost on the Audi because we paid for 4 years of service but traded it after 2 years. But, those are the chances one takes.

driver100 · August 2015

qbrozen said:

driver100 said:

My memory isn't as good as it used to be abrozen....why are you trading in a 2015 Fit? It is really hard to sell a used....especially privately.....car, if you can buy a new one for a little bit more.

Usually the dealer has financing, you have a better chance of solving problems, you could be selling it because of a major problem which a dealer would have to disclose, the 2016s will be out soon, etc. . Driving the car off the lot decreases the value by 20%, now 1 year depreciation decreases value by 15%.

Some people want to save a few bucks. We'll see what happens. I'm not trading, just selling. Buying a new house and all, so just trying to clean up the income:expense ratio. Not that I necessarily need to. If it doesn't sell, it doesn't sell. It is a 2015 with 7200 miles, so still plenty of factory warranty, and the car is like new still. According to the dealer auctions, 20% depreciation just doesn't apply to small Hondas.

Honestly, I would have asked for less, but then people would be suspicious. So I'm asking at least a believable price to make shoppers feel better. Makes sense, doesn't it?

As it is, some 2015s are going across the block with less than 100 miles and getting in the mid $14s. How dealers are planning on making a decent profit on those is beyond me, but the numbers are what the numbers are. Mine would likely bring right around $13.5k. I'd be perfectly content taking that for it, but carmax was at $11.5, autolenders was at $12.5, and I got a bid of $12.2 using the truetrade app. Kind of wish there was a way a private citizen could just sell their car at dealer auction. No idea why they would pay more for it there, then pay fees and transport on top of it, rather than if i drive it to them. Oh well.

A private buyer paying $14.5, let's say, would be saving a little over $2k from new. That's not a bad deal for them at all on a Honda since most economy vehicles see about a $2500 difference in value year over year.

Like I said, I really have no problem keeping it. If that happens, then I'll probably try to trade it in October for a CPO S60 for the wife.

Another reason "new" is more appealing is you get your choice of colors and options etc. A fit may not lose a full 20% depreciation but you do have half a years mileage on the car and that is worth at least $1000 off the top. Person can buy from the dealer and get special financing or lease. Carmax has to offer less because they have to clean it to their standards, market it, guaranty it, and still make a profit. But, the big difference to me is if you buy a 2016 for $2000 more you save between $1000 and $2000 in depreciation at trade in time.

In your favor....there might be someone who really wants to buy a Fit, and they may really need that extra $2000. I don't know if that person will have the cash or will get a bank loan though, if their situation is that fine.

houdini1 · August 2015

driver100 said:

bwia said:

driver100 said:
Talk about service. I went in this morning for my 12k mile service including oil change. I prepaid, $1200 for all the servicing. Drove in at 8 a.m., read my newspaper, sat in a few diffewrent models, watched the sports hilights, had a coffee.

Service guy came to get me at 10 a.m. Told me the car was in beautiful condition and it all checked out nicely. My car was washed, interior vacuumed, windows cleaned, tires black. Drove extra nicely when it was all sparkly cleaned. With prepay plan .........cost $0!
Nice service experience but at a huge cost. No? If I'm not mistaken, doesn't BMW offer 4 years of free service? Even our decidedly down market Buick Encore came with 2 years of free service, free coffee, high speed internet and HD TV...and did I mention free loaner.

Sounds great until you realize that translate to two free oil changes and tire rotations per year. Cars are so well made today that they require little maintenance extending the ownership experience to over 11 years on average.
BMW does offer 4 years complete service...though, the dealer will usually find something they can charge you for......but, generally 4 years of carefree driving.

Mercedes decided to offer a service package as an option. I guess they found they wanted to be more in line with BMW. This way the car appears to have a lower MSRP, and when you buy the car the chances are you will take the service package. It ends up costing a lot less than if you brought the car in each time and did it on your own. They like it too because it brings you back to their dealership rather than going to an indie - they do the work and may sell you something else.

Cost sounds high but they do a complete diagnosis of the car to make sure everything is running at optimum efficiency. It isn't just drain the oil and put some new oil in. It may be my imagination, but, the car seems to run better now.

Making the waiting room experience more pleasant probably pays off in the long run. I remember my old Chrysler dealer having a tiny room with old broken down furniture, ancient magazines, a vending machine for coffee and candy, threadbare furniture and carpets.

I like the peace of mind...I paid my money up front to protect my investment, and i don't have to worry about them finding something I wasn't counting on.

On the other hand...we lost on the Audi because we paid for 4 years of service but traded it after 2 years. But, those are the chances one takes.

I would think you should have gotten a partial refund on the prepaid service.

graphicguy · August 2015

This and that....Q, I've always found that Hondas and Acuras hold their value so well that I've often wondered how the used market on a model really would be appealing in that 2 MY old range? Hard to see a dealer making much on used Honda/Acura products given a new one doesn't cost all that much more than a year old used one.

Pre-paid service....if you plan on keeping a premium car for long, I think it can be a good deal. But, if you swap like most of us do in this forum, it might not be that good of a deal. Keep the car for the term of the service contract? Yeah.....go for it. That said, I've got a good independent mechanic who is probably better than 95% of the dealer service techs, even for premium brands. He even keeps all my service records for me in case I need them if the car's service comes into question. If my service isn't included, I'm taking my car to him.

I just popped for a Samsung 4K TV. Really nice pic. Went to Best Buy/Magnolia and they indeed were willing to price match on any ADVERTISED price of any reputable online retailer (i.e. Amazon). HH Gregg, where I actually bought the TV got around this by advertising the same TV at the same price at BB/Magnolia. But, they had instore coupons that beat the BB price. BB would not match because it wasn't HH Gregg's ADVERTISED price.

More bad news on the Caddy....nice day in the OHIO Valley today. Got up early. Went to my local park and walked for 3 miles. On the way home, I stopped at Starbucks drivethough for a Venti Coffee. Pulling out of their parking lot, the CTS stalled, I cranked it. No start. Cranked it again. No start. People behind me starting to honk. Enough is enough. Have some extra time on my hands today. Called their roadside assistance, who showed up surprisingly in about 15 minutes to tow my car to the same place that can't/won't fix the other issues. Road with the tow driver to the dealership. Service writer was very apologetic.

He immediately wrote up the ticket (I did take a phone pic of the dash lit up like a Christmas tree). He put me into an XTS with ~200 miles to drive around. He said he doubted they'd get to it today as they aren't open late. But, they'd take a look at it on Monday.

BTW...the XTS is a big car, and it drives big. Handles pretty well for its size. Then again, I'm not pushing it in any way, shape or form.

Never ending saga.

nyccarguy · August 2015

@graphicguy - at least now you have a loaner. Don't give it back until yours is fixed or bought back:)

qbrozen · August 2015

GG - I'd love to know what they've checked/replaced on the car thus far, if anything.

I'm sitting at the Chrysler dealer now. We have a bit of an ongoing saga ourselves with the T&C's lights. Not sure what I shared before, but we've had issues with headlights and marker lights coming and going. They already replaced the control module, then told me it was my trailer harness, so they disconnected that last time here and replaced the fuses they claim it blew. Well, yup, a damned headlight is out again. So they told me it was a bulb. What? An HID bulb in just 1 year? OK... fine, go for it. Came back out an hour later to tell me the bulb didn't fix it. They claim to have an electrical expert here today and asked if I could hang out longer. Been here 3 hours already. This is the 3rd visit for this problem.

roadburner · August 2015

driver100 said:

What exactly are the reasons you didn't like driving the Explorer.

It's big and heavy- and feels it. Woolly steering and brakes; just dull and uninvolving to drive. I know it's not supposed to be a sports car, but other companies can make CUVs and SUVs that are fun to drive, so there's no way I'd consider one.

roadburner · August 2015

bwia said:
Remember the dealer assumes all the risks in a trade. When the dealer resells the vehicle he gives his assurances, implied or express, that car is fit for the purpose it was intended. Not to mention in the event that the trade does not sell quickly enough the dealer has to sell at auction sometimes at a loss.

Did you steal that dealer's talking points? CarMax assumes the identical risks as well, yet the Ford dealer initially threw out a number 36% lower. Then they played "let me talk with my manager/we'll call some KIA dealers/that's all the money for that car" charade. Actually, my friend was more patient than me. I would have put the CarMax offer on the desk initially and told them that they had one chance to match the offer or I was walking.

Oh yeah, the guy pulled the "Your sales tax is reduced by the trade-in's value." cr@p. I guess he thought I couldn't figure that out. Lets see... you receive $1800 less than CarMax offered but-wait for it- you save the 6% sales tax on $3,200- a whole $192!!!

That short-sighted attitude might have cost them another sale; if I decide to get a Mustang GT or a Focus RS, I've already eliminated one dealer I might have otherwise shopped.

qbrozen · August 2015

Been here 4 hours now. They came out to tell me it is the HID computer. Hmmm... yet another part that has to be ordered and I have to come back a 4th time. SIGH

driver100 · August 2015

houdini1 said:

driver100 said:

bwia said:

driver100 said:
Talk about service. I went in this morning for my 12k mile service including oil change. I prepaid, $1200 for all the servicing. Drove in at 8 a.m., read my newspaper, sat in a few diffewrent models, watched the sports hilights, had a coffee.

Service guy came to get me at 10 a.m. Told me the car was in beautiful condition and it all checked out nicely. My car was washed, interior vacuumed, windows cleaned, tires black. Drove extra nicely when it was all sparkly cleaned. With prepay plan .........cost $0!
Nice service experience but at a huge cost. No? If I'm not mistaken, doesn't BMW offer 4 years of free service? Even our decidedly down market Buick Encore came with 2 years of free service, free coffee, high speed internet and HD TV...and did I mention free loaner.

Sounds great until you realize that translate to two free oil changes and tire rotations per year. Cars are so well made today that they require little maintenance extending the ownership experience to over 11 years on average.
BMW does offer 4 years complete service...though, the dealer will usually find something they can charge you for......but, generally 4 years of carefree driving.

Mercedes decided to offer a service package as an option. I guess they found they wanted to be more in line with BMW. This way the car appears to have a lower MSRP, and when you buy the car the chances are you will take the service package. It ends up costing a lot less than if you brought the car in each time and did it on your own. They like it too because it brings you back to their dealership rather than going to an indie - they do the work and may sell you something else.

Cost sounds high but they do a complete diagnosis of the car to make sure everything is running at optimum efficiency. It isn't just drain the oil and put some new oil in. It may be my imagination, but, the car seems to run better now.

Making the waiting room experience more pleasant probably pays off in the long run. I remember my old Chrysler dealer having a tiny room with old broken down furniture, ancient magazines, a vending machine for coffee and candy, threadbare furniture and carpets.

I like the peace of mind...I paid my money up front to protect my investment, and i don't have to worry about them finding something I wasn't counting on.

On the other hand...we lost on the Audi because we paid for 4 years of service but traded it after 2 years. But, those are the chances one takes.

I would think you should have gotten a partial refund on the prepaid service.

I forgot to mention it when we traded it for the GLK. But, I believe the Audi service came from the dealer and it may not have been transferable...in fact, I seem to remember telling the salesman after the fact and he said it wasn't transferable. I know the bMW and MB service is transferable.

In any case, I was glad we found the new car and it wasn't too much of a hit dumping the A4.

graphicguy · August 2015

qbrozen said:
GG - I'd love to know what they've checked/replaced on the car thus far, if anything.

I'm sitting at the Chrysler dealer now. We have a bit of an ongoing saga ourselves with the T&C's lights. Not sure what I shared before, but we've had issues with headlights and marker lights coming and going. They already replaced the control module, then told me it was my trailer harness, so they disconnected that last time here and replaced the fuses they claim it blew. Well, yup, a damned headlight is out again. So they told me it was a bulb. What? An HID bulb in just 1 year? OK... fine, go for it. Came back out an hour later to tell me the bulb didn't fix it. They claim to have an electrical expert here today and asked if I could hang out longer. Been here 3 hours already. This is the 3rd visit for this problem.

Q...they've replaced the steering rack and pump. They updated some sort of firmware that was supposed to fix the power steering going out, but neither the steering rack and pump, nor the firmware fixed the issue.

They did something to the steering column, but not sure if there were actual parts replaced.

They've installed some sort of software update that I think caused some of the CUE issues as the XTS' CUE seems to operate correctly.

They cleaned the injectors.

At first they claimed I was using the wrong gas. I explained that I only used Premium, and always used Tier 1 brnads of gas, so that's a crock. It really irritates me that Cadillac and the dealers are trying to blame me for some of the car's problems.

So, for all their "no code, no problems" rhetoric, they've certainly replaced a lot of parts.

driver100 · August 2015

graphicguy said:
This and that....Q, I've always found that Hondas and Acuras hold their value so well that I've often wondered how the used market on a model really would be appealing in that 2 MY old range? Hard to see a dealer making much on used Honda/Acura products given a new one doesn't cost all that much more than a year old used one.

Pre-paid service....if you plan on keeping a premium car for long, I think it can be a good deal. But, if you swap like most of us do in this forum, it might not be that good of a deal. Keep the car for the term of the service contract? Yeah.....go for it. That said, I've got a good independent mechanic who is probably better than 95% of the dealer service techs, even for premium brands. He even keeps all my service records for me in case I need them if the car's service comes into question. If my service isn't included, I'm taking my car to him.

I just popped for a Samsung 4K TV. Really nice pic. Went to Best Buy/Magnolia and they indeed were willing to price match on any ADVERTISED price of any reputable online retailer (i.e. Amazon). HH Gregg, where I actually bought the TV got around this by advertising the same TV at the same price at BB/Magnolia. But, they had instore coupons that beat the BB price. BB would not match because it wasn't HH Gregg's ADVERTISED price.

More bad news on the Caddy....nice day in the OHIO Valley today. Got up early. Went to my local park and walked for 3 miles. On the way home, I stopped at Starbucks drivethough for a Venti Coffee. Pulling out of their parking lot, the CTS stalled, I cranked it. No start. Cranked it again. No start. People behind me starting to honk. Enough is enough. Have some extra time on my hands today. Called their roadside assistance, who showed up surprisingly in about 15 minutes to tow my car to the same place that can't/won't fix the other issues. Road with the tow driver to the dealership. Service writer was very apologetic.

He immediately wrote up the ticket (I did take a phone pic of the dash lit up like a Christmas tree). He put me into an XTS with ~200 miles to drive around. He said he doubted they'd get to it today as they aren't open late. But, they'd take a look at it on Monday.

BTW...the XTS is a big car, and it drives big. Handles pretty well for its size. Then again, I'm not pushing it in any way, shape or form.

Never ending saga.

I hope they find a code GG.

That is unbelievable. I hope you are making notes with dates and records. Even a phone photo would help - that was smart getting the picture. A picture of the car being towed would have been impressive.

I think that car needs a exorcist to remove the demon.

thebean · August 2015

GG, I can't imagine how you've kept your patience as much as you have. What a nightmare.

imidazol97 · August 2015

graphicguy said:
He immediately wrote up the ticket (I did take a phone pic of the dash lit up like a Christmas tree). He put me into an XTS with ~200 miles to drive around. He said he doubted they'd get to it today as they aren't open late. But, they'd take a look at it on Monday.

This is really a sad story about this car and dealer.

graphicguy · August 2015

imidazol97 said:

graphicguy said:
He immediately wrote up the ticket (I did take a phone pic of the dash lit up like a Christmas tree). He put me into an XTS with ~200 miles to drive around. He said he doubted they'd get to it today as they aren't open late. But, they'd take a look at it on Monday.
This is really a sad story about this car and dealer.

Imid....two dealers, one (allegedly) premium car manufacturer and brand that can't give the service and reliability of my son's bottom rung Ford Fiesta. Sad indeed!

mako1a · August 2015

My 2 cents. GG, keep the XTS until they settle and do a buyback. I wouldn't even open the door on that CTS ever again.
Roadburner, I'd rather you didn't buy a Mustang GT. You seem to have this european motocross mindset going and that is NOT what the GT does well. It does straight line light to light real well. You are more of a sharp turn on hugger tires type. Maybe a Boss Mustang, but not a GT.

imidazol97 · August 2015

I know lots of people here have cars with fancy wheels and some do their own detailing.

I have wheels that have a recess around the exposed lug nuts. Does anyone have a
recommendation of a good lug nut brush to wash the brake dust and dirt out of
the recess? Cheapness is not the main consideration: I want
one that will work nicely and last.

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