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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    Not as bad as the spilled grits under the back seat of my '82 Tercel. After a long winter, things thawed out and the grits got very ripe.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    texases said:

    Spilled milk, yes, but the mess is still on the kitchen floor, and BOY does it stink!

    All spilled milk & stink aside, the three way love birds VW, EPA, CARB can't agree on how to agree or what they are really fighting about ! I am guessing that this tiff would possibly put the solution out past 2 to 3 years @ the very least!

    This might be good for a low budget Hollywood soap opera ?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited January 2016
    Using a Democrat Slogan " Never let a serious CRISIS go to waste"

    A new website called VWsham.com is selling magnetic bumper stickers bearing anti-VW slogans, such as “Another VW? No tanks,” “VW took me for a ride,” and “VW. German for FU.” Each magnet costs $7.50, with 5% of sales going to the International Council for Clean Transportation, according to the site.

    So far I would say there are more ambulance chasers than disgruntled VW TDI owners.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,105
    The quicker VW gets through this, the less grief they'll suffer from the nutjobs and ambulance chasers. They're a ready target right now, and they don't seem to be doing much to help themselves. Just the opposite...
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    texases said:

    The quicker VW gets through this, the less grief they'll suffer from the nutjobs and ambulance chasers. They're a ready target right now, and they don't seem to be doing much to help themselves. Just the opposite...

    You have to remember VW has more than one group to deal with in the USA. First and foremost CARB is far more powerful than the EPA. Until VW has a fix that satisfies CARB, there is no fix for the USA. With so many whining babies to attend to you just have to get one at a time.

    Germany approves emissions fix for first Volkswagen diesel model

    http://seekingalpha.com/news/3058556-germany-approves-emissions-fix-first-volkswagen-diesel-model
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    VW is still hanging in there ahead of GM.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    gagrice said:

    stevedebi said:

    gagrice said:

    ...


    If the CA emissions test for diesel was the same as for gas engines I don't think they would have gotten away with it. The gas test measures the exhaust while taking the vehicle up to speed on the rollers. As one of the car magazines showed that test was able to measure the excess NOx. So yes CARB did not do their job very well.
    ...

    The CA test for cars doesn't check the tailpipe emissions if the car has an OBD port. They just plug it in and retrieve the information. Same for diesel, I think.
    The gas test is much more comprehensive. They put your car on rollers. Stick a sniffer in the exhaust pipe. Run the car up to a couple different speeds. While hooked up to the cars computer. There are several different emissions levels tested and put on the form. It also goes directly to the state.

    With diesel they just plug in to the OBD and run the engine and look for visible emissions. The OBD looks to make sure there are no modifications according to the tester. The form has about 5 items that just say Pass. No levels tested. No way to compare if my diesel puts out more or less CO, CO2, PM, NOx etc etc than my gas vehicles.
    On my last gas smog test, they plugged into the OBD and read the data. That was all there was. They went to this system a few years ago.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    To make my point notice who follows who!

    Volkswagen says the rejected fix was submitted to regulators in December. The California state agency said the proposal was “incomplete, substantially deficient, and falls far short of meeting the legal requirements.” For its part, the EPA chimed in, agreeing with CARB that “Volkswagen has not submitted an approvable recall plan to bring the vehicles into compliance and reduce pollution.

    The other 49 states represented by the EPA are just monkeys following the ALL Powerful California. What California wants everyone else gets. If you do own a diesel and are lucky enough to live in one of the 41 states that do not test diesel emissions you are fortunate.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    I think EV advocates are scratching their heads, as to why the conversion rate is SO dismal ! While gas @ $ 1.01 which is @ the cheapest in a long time, electrical prices @ 3.5 cents per kWh & as low as 2.7 cents per kWh, are @ lows also!

    So for example, Siri says the ( my) AVERAGE is app $.1534 per kWh! However in California, this is totally misleading due to a ridiculously complicated rate structures ! It's not hard to see that the EV people are getting ripped off big time.
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 262,061
    ruking1 said:

    I think EV advocates are scratching their heads, as to why the conversion rate is SO dismal ! While gas @ $ 1.01 which is @ the cheapest in a long time, electrical prices @ 3.5 cents per kWh & as low as 2.7 cents per kWh, are @ lows also!

    So for example, Siri says the ( my) AVERAGE is app $.1534 per kWh! However in California, this is totally misleading due to a ridiculously complicated rate structures ! It's not hard to see that the EV people are getting ripped off big time.

    When you talk about "conversion rate" are you talking about the number of folks who 'convert' from a gas/diesel car to an EV?

    IMO, I think it has to do with cost, convenience and range anxiety.

    Cost - EV's are, by and large, more expensive than a fossil fuel equivalent, even with the generous federal and state subsidies.

    Convenience - Most folks are used to obtaining another 300-600 miles of travel in a matter of minutes at a fuel station. EV's take many hours to charge (excluding the Tesla superchargers that are still few and far between for many parts of the country)

    Range Anxiety - While stats show that the average person drives less than XX miles per day, well within range of EV's, I think the thought of running out of energy weighs heavily on a lot of people.

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    ruking1 said:

    I think EV advocates are scratching their heads, as to why the conversion rate is SO dismal ! While gas @ $ 1.01 which is @ the cheapest in a long time, electrical prices @ 3.5 cents per kWh & as low as 2.7 cents per kWh, are @ lows also!

    So for example, Siri says the ( my) AVERAGE is app $.1534 per kWh! However in California, this is totally misleading due to a ridiculously complicated rate structures ! It's not hard to see that the EV people are getting ripped off big time.

    San Diego electric rates make an EV a very poor choice. Even with solar, you are likely to get screwed when the utilities do away with net metering. Our lowest rate as of my last bill was 17 cents per KWH. Top rate 42 cents. My bill was $146 for 610 KWHs used. All usage above 436 KWHs is at the top rate. So you can figure what it would cost to own an EV here. Looking at the Tesla Forum, they are getting about 3 miles per KWH. In San Diego about 14 cents per mile. That is more than my lifetime 13 cents per mile on my Touareg TDI with a minimum 600 mile range. Rumor has it with some of the new laws in CA our rates could go much higher.

    Most of my miles on the Touareg were with Diesel about $4 per gallon. Last fill was 8 cents a mile. That is why I own a diesel and would not buy a gas car again.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Range Anxiety - While stats show that the average person drives less than XX miles per day, well within range of EV's, I think the thought of running out of energy weighs heavily on a lot of people.

    I have talked to a fellow with a Leaf. He likes it, except when his wife comes close to running out of juice on the mostly uphill route home. We are 35 miles from where she works in San Diego. Round trip is real iffy. She has a CC plug-in at the Navy base. She plugs in there and charges while at work. More than once she has returned after work to find it unplugged where someone else had used it and left her with barely enough to get home.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    EV while seeming off topic is really a purposeful point for point contrast to diesels.

    In addition, many folks in flights of pure Hollywood fantasy, totally gloss over the fact that WHOLE NEW and HUGELY MASSIVE brick & mortar & parallel infrastructurals needs to be built!! The funniest flight of fantasy is that somehow EV religious converts think "someone else" is going to pay for it ! Look in the mirrors boys & gurls, one guess who is really paying for it!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    gagrice said:

    ruking1 said:

    I think EV advocates are scratching their heads, as to why the conversion rate is SO dismal ! While gas @ $ 1.01 which is @ the cheapest in a long time, electrical prices @ 3.5 cents per kWh & as low as 2.7 cents per kWh, are @ lows also!

    So for example, Siri says the ( my) AVERAGE is app $.1534 per kWh! However in California, this is totally misleading due to a ridiculously complicated rate structures ! It's not hard to see that the EV people are getting ripped off big time.

    San Diego electric rates make an EV a very poor choice. Even with solar, you are likely to get screwed when the utilities do away with net metering. Our lowest rate as of my last bill was 17 cents per KWH. Top rate 42 cents. My bill was $146 for 610 KWHs used. All usage above 436 KWHs is at the top rate. So you can figure what it would cost to own an EV here. Looking at the Tesla Forum, they are getting about 3 miles per KWH. In San Diego about 14 cents per mile. That is more than my lifetime 13 cents per mile on my Touareg TDI with a minimum 600 mile range. Rumor has it with some of the new laws in CA our rates could go much higher.

    Most of my miles on the Touareg were with Diesel about $4 per gallon. Last fill was 8 cents a mile. That is why I own a diesel and would not buy a gas car again.
    To address the Touareg's TDI 33 mpg $1.89/ gas 20 mpg. $2.37= .0573/.1185 cpmd:fuel. Over 180,000 miles that is $11,016 MORE!

    So anytime soon, I am NOT switching to gas hybrid, EV, gas.

    Since the Obama administration put Iran's oil & gas production back online, the prices in the foreseeable future will tend to stay VERY low! It's not like they do contract fashion work for the NYC Corporations fashion elites! )

    US policy is working hard to make a glut of ULSD with an already HUGE glut of RUG/PUG! ( don't forget the 42 gal barrel of oil boys & girls of 19 gal of RUG/PUG to 10 gals of diesel.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited January 2016
    To address the Touareg's TDI 33 mpg $1.89/ gas 20 mpg. $2.37= .0573/.1185 cpmd:fuel.

    I got a couple 32 MPG tanks early on with my Touareg TDI. After they ruined my Goodyear tire and I got the new set of Michelins, I have four tankfuls around 29 MPG. They are rated much higher mileage and LRR. They are more solid feeling. I am not complaining with mostly City freeway driving and over all 26.6 MPG. That is 15% better than EPA estimate and 45% better than the poor devils that bought a Touareg V6 gasser.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    edited January 2016
    ruking1 said:

    gagrice said:

    ruking1 said:

    I think EV advocates are scratching their heads, as to why the conversion rate is SO dismal ! While gas @ $ 1.01 which is @ the cheapest in a long time, electrical prices @ 3.5 cents per kWh & as low as 2.7 cents per kWh, are @ lows also!

    So for example, Siri says the ( my) AVERAGE is app $.1534 per kWh! However in California, this is totally misleading due to a ridiculously complicated rate structures ! It's not hard to see that the EV people are getting ripped off big time.

    San Diego electric rates make an EV a very poor choice. Even with solar, you are likely to get screwed when the utilities do away with net metering. Our lowest rate as of my last bill was 17 cents per KWH. Top rate 42 cents. My bill was $146 for 610 KWHs used. All usage above 436 KWHs is at the top rate. So you can figure what it would cost to own an EV here. Looking at the Tesla Forum, they are getting about 3 miles per KWH. In San Diego about 14 cents per mile. That is more than my lifetime 13 cents per mile on my Touareg TDI with a minimum 600 mile range. Rumor has it with some of the new laws in CA our rates could go much higher.

    Most of my miles on the Touareg were with Diesel about $4 per gallon. Last fill was 8 cents a mile. That is why I own a diesel and would not buy a gas car again.
    To address the Touareg's TDI 33 mpg $1.89/ gas 20 mpg. $2.37= .0573/.1185 cpmd:fuel. Over 180,000 miles that is $11,016 MORE!

    So anytime soon, I am NOT switching to gas hybrid, EV, gas.
    Not going to argue about diesel - we have a 2014 Passat TDI, and love it. For comparison, here are our costs per mile, including electric.

    2014 C-Max Energi: Raw 4.23 cents / with electric cost 6.53
    2014 Passat TDI: 7.37
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Yes, I credit the slightly better mpg that I get with 18 inch tires versus 19 inch tires. @ the time I had to change the OEM Goodyear tires, the local tire guru recommended Continental Cross Contact LX20's.

    I am glad you like the Michelin's. I vaguely recall that your tire vender made you a fantastic deal on the Michelin's.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    When they poked a hole in the side of my Goodyear, they could not find a replacement. So they sold me the full set of Michelin Latitude HP 111V, mounted and balanced for $375. Which was way more than I expected. So Discount Tire made a customer for life. The difference is in size. They could not find the OEM size in their network. So I got 255 /55 R19. They are slightly taller, so I am actually going 62 miles when the ODO clocks 60 miles. The OEM tires are 265/50-19.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Yes, the Toureg tires are expensive! The tire gurus recommended 5,000 mile rotations, which I let them do! (They even use torque wrenches! & that I run 3 PSI over placard)

    Non diesel, but Touareg related. The 7700 # rated hitch and light hook up's were installed recently ! The (Yelp highly rated) shop seemed to do an excellent job, for an aftermarket installation! It even looks OEM! it's ready to tow the big stuff. Actually, it will be used to move the toys back-and-forth.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,676
    gagrice said:

    When they poked a hole in the side of my Goodyear, they could not find a replacement. So they sold me the full set of Michelin Latitude HP 111V, mounted and balanced for $375. Which was way more than I expected. So Discount Tire made a customer for life. The difference is in size. They could not find the OEM size in their network. So I got 255 /55 R19. They are slightly taller, so I am actually going 62 miles when the ODO clocks 60 miles. The OEM tires are 265/50-19.

    They are only 10MM smaller in width, but that is a 4% reduction, so maybe you'll see a little better fuel economy given the smaller contact patches? Of course, that could be wiped out by the differences in friction properties of the tires (tread pattern, makeup of rubber, etc). We can always hope, though.... :)
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes, the H rated tire requirements for these mid sized CUV's are a study in extreme contrasts!

    To cut to the chase, I only hammer these A/S tires in the context of trying to get a reasonable set of miles on them! Giving the contrasts, 90,000 miles might be a bit much? But so far wear per 1/32nds is pretty good @ over 16,000 per!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    New tires sometimes mean worse fuel economy - more tread or grippier rubber or whatever can make for more rolling resistance.

    "Volkswagen has not found a way to reduce emissions that satisfies federal and California regulators. In any case, the company would still face legal claims from owners if the cars’ performance suffered and the vehicles lost resale value as a result. It may be simpler just to buy cars back, or offer owners generous trade-ins on new Volkswagen vehicles."

    Volkswagen Says a Diesel Fix May Not Be Possible for Some Cars (NY Times)

    Volkswagen Begins Recall of Diesel Cars in Europe (WSJ - free link at time of posting)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Ford Motor Co. appears to be gearing up to launch a diesel-powered version of the F-150, possibly as early as next year, and wrest the fuel efficiency crown from the hot-selling Ram 1500 EcoDiesel."

    Ford, aiming for pickup fuel economy crown, preps diesel-powered F-150 (autonews.com)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Confirming a recent rumor, Fiat-Chrysler boss Sergio Marchionne recently announced the Wrangler lineup will be expanded with hybrid and diesel powertrains after the new model goes on sale."

    Jeep’s Next Wrangler Will Come In Hybrid And Diesel Versions (digitaltrends.com)

  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    stever said:

    "Confirming a recent rumor, Fiat-Chrysler boss Sergio Marchionne recently announced the Wrangler lineup will be expanded with hybrid and diesel powertrains after the new model goes on sale."

    Jeep’s Next Wrangler Will Come In Hybrid And Diesel Versions (digitaltrends.com)

    2022 for the full hybrid Wrangler. The next one up is a mild hybrid that doesn't do much.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,105
    I can easily see a diesel Wrangler. Hybrid? Not so much.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Well, the hybrid in EV mode could see some duty shuttling guests around the hotel grounds at 6 miles an hour I suppose.

    Zee plane, zee plane!
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,105
    stever said:

    Well, the hybrid in EV mode could see some duty shuttling guests around the hotel grounds at 6 miles an hour I suppose.

    Zee plane, zee plane!

    I bet Las Brisas could use some new ones:
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 262,061
    stever said:

    Well, the hybrid in EV mode could see some duty shuttling guests around the hotel grounds at 6 miles an hour I suppose.

    Zee plane, zee plane!

    Funny you should make that reference. Apparently, today is the anniversary of the premiere of the TV show "Fantasy Island".

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    stever said:

    "Ford Motor Co. appears to be gearing up to launch a diesel-powered version of the F-150, possibly as early as next year, and wrest the fuel efficiency crown from the hot-selling Ram 1500 EcoDiesel."

    Ford, aiming for pickup fuel economy crown, preps diesel-powered F-150 (autonews.com)

    They need something. That 2.7L V6 is a gas hog. If I owned one I would jump on a class action lawsuit. The EPA says 22, average of 101 owners is a lousy 18 MPG. Didn't Honda and Kia get dinged for exaggerated mileage? Probably a gutless engine like my Ford Ranger V6.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    The articles and you guys are confirming what I've been saying all along: more OEMs and models are turning to diesel options! The reports of diesel's death are premature! It's actually turning out to be the exact opposite Here is another article.
    http://www.autoblog.com/2016/01/28/ford-f150-diesel-spied-video/
    If and when EPA/CARB stops their love bickering with the VW,, kiss & make up & certifies their diesel offerings, growth for the niche diesel segments will be explosive!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited January 2016
    On the other hand, it takes what, two or three years or more to design/build a "new" platform or engine/drivetrain combo? Some of the new diesel offerings may have been in the pipeline for a while and future research money may not be there for the next generation of diesel.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Not really, we already know from earlier articles that the reason why EPA/CARB did not certified 2016 VW diesels was for punitive reasons? So typically VW runs seven-year generation cycles, which in the plans was downgraded to five year generation cycles.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I'm thinking GM and Ford and the rest of 'em. They have stuff coming out that is new to the pipeline. Will they now switch more money to hybrid development thanks to the VW debacle?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I may go take a look at the Range Rover TD6. My local dealer has six of them. Priced from $100k to $114k. Hard to imagine they are worth $40k more than a BMW or MB diesel SUV.

    https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/655167254/overview/#modal-photoModal
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Counterintuitively no! If hybrids were as effective they have been reputed/ reported to be, they would've LONG ago been put on the products with the least mpg, i.e. big " light trucks". VW Toureg has a gas hybrid model. In their dreams, it gets 24 mpg (my TDI is @ 33 mpg) and costs $15,000 more than the TDI. Wake time, the gas hybrid posts more like 21 to 22 mpg! The gas hybrids mpg fantasy never matched the realities. The 2004 Toyota PIous brouhaha should have been the indicator.s.

    Howver, the real realities are the Prius' exists to sell gas guzzling Toyota trucks & large cars! This has always been in accordance with EPA/CARB's rules and regulations!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Big SUV hybrids are aimed at the same fat cats that can afford a Tesla. I know the dealer here that wanted to unload the Touareg Hybrid on me, had it for months. They finally sold at a loss to get rid of it. I see only 3 New Touareg Hybrids in the USA for sale. All back on the East Coast. A 2012, 2014 & 2015. $68k and up. Not a chance. I seriously doubt it will be a win for the environment. Just an ego thing.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,105
    Hybrids get very expensive once you're in something bigger than a Camry/Fusion or Rav4/Escape. Bigger vehicle = bigger battery = $$$$. That's where diesels come in.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    stever said:

    "Confirming a recent rumor, Fiat-Chrysler boss Sergio Marchionne recently announced the Wrangler lineup will be expanded with hybrid and diesel powertrains after the new model goes on sale."

    Jeep’s Next Wrangler Will Come In Hybrid And Diesel Versions (digitaltrends.com)

    2022 for the full hybrid Wrangler. The next one up is a mild hybrid that doesn't do much.
    gagrice said:

    stever said:

    "Ford Motor Co. appears to be gearing up to launch a diesel-powered version of the F-150, possibly as early as next year, and wrest the fuel efficiency crown from the hot-selling Ram 1500 EcoDiesel."

    Ford, aiming for pickup fuel economy crown, preps diesel-powered F-150 (autonews.com)

    They need something. That 2.7L V6 is a gas hog. If I owned one I would jump on a class action lawsuit. The EPA says 22, average of 101 owners is a lousy 18 MPG. Didn't Honda and Kia get dinged for exaggerated mileage? Probably a gutless engine like my Ford Ranger V6.
    Which V6 was in your Ranger? I owned one with the 4.0 back in the early 90's. That thing was a rocket.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Which V6 was in your Ranger? I owned one with the 4.0 back in the early 90's. That thing was a rocket.

    Mine was a 1999 with automatic. V6 4.0L FFV. I could not pull my 3500 lb utility trailer up our hill with one pallet of blocks on it. My Nissan V6 4.0L goes up without a problem. To be fair I bought the Ranger used with 106K miles on it. Seemed fine on the test drive without a load in the box or a trailer.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The only thing that would get me back into a Ford would be a diesel engine with a few years to work out the bugs. A T6 Ranger diesel or an Explorer diesel.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    texases said:

    Hybrids get very expensive once you're in something bigger than a Camry/Fusion or Rav4/Escape. Bigger vehicle = bigger battery = $$$$. That's where diesels come in.

    The same has been true with the 2004 Prius (smaller) gas hybrid ! The 1.9 L TDI was fine then. So, no real change & no new revelation! So, small to large diesels makes sense in most to all segments!

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,105
    ?  Prius has a small battery and paid off when gas was $3. Had the TDI cost included needed pollution controls the econs would be similar. Neither pay at $1.70/gal. 
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    Both cars met all pollution laws! The price of fuel really was not the issue. The issue was $ 5,000 to $7000 more for the Prius & 43 mpg vs 50 mpg, TDI. Still years off from B/E.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,105
    Wow. Cheater met the regs. Okey dokey. 
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    texases said:

    Wow. Cheater met the regs. Okey dokey. 

    Yep the Prius was the cheater at that time ! So yeah, you got that right!
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,105
    EPA changed the mpg test for all cars, not just the Prius. No regs were broken, anyway. 
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    EPA/CARB said they changed it specifically to favor hybrid cars! The 3 to 4 decade old test was perfectly fine! It did defacto make the hybrid look bad! No, diesel did not break any regulations! So yeah, you got the diesel portion correct. 2004 Prius owners sued & won against Toyota for inflating Prius mpg figures!
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,105
    edited January 2016
    What does a 2004 mpg problem, long solved, have to do with anything?  A car buyer today can choose between a Prius that gets 50 mpg and, when cleared, a TDI that might do as well.  Price won't be much different, but VW's cheating will push lots of folks to the Prius.   VW knows this, hence their big push into hybrids and EVs recently announced. 
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2016
    texases said:

    What does a 2004 mpg problem, long solved, have to do with anything?  A car buyer today can choose between a Prius that gets 50 mpg and, when cleared, a TDI that might do as well.  Price won't be much different, but VW's cheating will push lots of folks to the Prius.   VW knows this, hence their big push into hybrids and EVs recently announced. 

    IF had bought a 2004 Pruis I still would NOT have B/E'd against the 2003 VW TDI or 2004 Civic, gasser! Yes that is OVER 12 years & 180,000 miles!! If one chooses to ignore the history, doesn't want to do the math, or is just fine paying a lot more than one has to, ...then, absolutely nothing! A mythical buyer can buy a lot more than a Pruis or VW. Toyota has done NOTHING to entice VW customers, due to the diesel gate.

    On a global basis, VW is still # 2, (& not by much) behind Toyota! But then not much is static? http://news.yahoo.com/toyota-may-halt-japan-car-output-february-due-072843360--finance.html
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