A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

Mr_Shiftright · September 2016

I didn't even understand what he was talking about. What does THIS even mean?

"There is a part on each side of the car and bolts react the same, however the tech says only one is bad? "

Is he saying that parts that have a left and a right must fail at the same time? He makes no sense.

qbrozen · September 2016

He is saying they currently are in the same condition, as far as he can tell, yet the tech is claiming only 1 is bad.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2016

I guess we don't know what "they" are.

thecardoc3 · September 2016

Apparently he doesn't know what they are either, otherwise you would think that he would have written down what they are. If I had to guess, sway bar links would fit the description. This is just one more example of how people make claims of competency in auto repair that just don't measure up.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2016

or struts, or control arm bushings, or......

thecardoc3 · September 2016

About that smart_tag.js From mono.vizu apparently its an add that isn't loading correctly from the page. Here is a discussion about it. http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1271745

So if it isn't malicious to make the bar go away should it just be saved? Here is a screen shot of what I am seeing.

stever · September 2016

Are you using Internet Explorer or Firefox for your browser?

thecardoc3 · September 2016

I have several different computers and browsers. It's happening on an 8.1 with Explorer, an older 7 with IE and a newer one with edge on it. I have to be careful about using browsers like crome or firefox because of O.E. vehicle software conflicts.

stever · September 2016

Thanks, I've put some feelers out. Maybe it is one of our ads.

thecardoc3 · September 2016

OK, I think I know which add is doing it. It only shows up when a State Farm add is displayed on the screen.

stever · September 2016

We'll make a coder out of you yet.

thecardoc3 · September 2016

stever said:
We'll make a coder out of you yet.

LOL, I'm already way to busy to take on another career.

thecardoc3 · September 2016

An article with some numbers. Do you want to know what it takes to try and keep up with the demands that the trade, or in this authors perception "Profession" is facing?

http://www.searchautoparts.com/automechanika-chicago/commitment-training/focus-billed-labor-correct-rate-and-your-life-will-change?cid=95882

Mr_Shiftright · September 2016

I think the author is quite correct as far as he takes it---the problem is that while increased labor costs to get your car fixed are inevitable in the near future, it doesn't take into account how the car itself might change to deal with this jump in maintenance costs. It might be, for instance, that all cars will be leased in the future, and repaired only under warranty. Case in point---what happened to all the "appliance repair" shops?

kyfdx · September 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
I think the author is quite correct as far as he takes it---the problem is that while increased labor costs to get your car fixed are inevitable in the near future, it doesn't take into account how the car itself might change to deal with this jump in maintenance costs. It might be, for instance, that all cars will be leased in the future, and repaired only under warranty. Case in point---what happened to all the "appliance repair" shops?

Manufacturing costs came down so fast on appliances that repairs generally aren't worth it. I can buy a washer/dryer or refrigerator for less than I paid 20 years ago. (and, with technology that is far advanced).

That doesn't seem to be happening with cars, though. The prices keep going up.

guitarzan · September 2016

thecardoc3 said:
An article with some numbers. Do you want to know what it takes to try and keep up with the demands that the trade, or in this authors perception "Profession" is facing?

http://www.searchautoparts.com/automechanika-chicago/commitment-training/focus-billed-labor-correct-rate-and-your-life-will-change?cid=95882

I apologize if we covered this...I blame the migraines...Still, would you re-enlighten me on the difference between a trade and a profession? And what are the implications to you when people get this incorrect?

The definitions I read state that for a profession there are governing bodies and a formal training process. Vendor certifications are formal programs are they not? ASE as well? Unless being "manual labor" is the defining element?

Mr_Shiftright · September 2016

Yes that's true but if all cars are leased then the factory that made them become completely responsible for most repairs---leaving the leasee with only some basic maintenance costs---and scheduled maintenance, being so rigid and similar, can have costs tightly controlled.

It is possible that repairing a car out of warranty will become so expensive that people will see leasing as a very attractive alternative.

Even a TV that costs $1200 and breaks in 3 years is thrown into landfill these days. and we are already at a point where any car on the road today worth $6000 is immediately totaled by an engine failure.

Once repair labor costs reach $150 to $200 an hour, it's quite possible that $1500 brake jobs and $2000 "bumper-benders" are not far off for the most common and inexpensive cars.

So I see a future where most cars will be leased, where more and more older cars will be junked rather than repaired, and where only top notch independent specialists will survive in the car repair business. Everyone else will disappear, including small indy general repair shops, jiffy-lubes, tire stores, Autozone---the whole shebang.

Time frame? Starting in the early 2020s'.

kyfdx · September 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
Yes that's true but if all cars are leased then the factory that made them become completely responsible for most repairs---leaving the leasee with only some basic maintenance costs---and scheduled maintenance, being so rigid and similar, can have costs tightly controlled.

It is possible that repairing a car out of warranty will become so expensive that people will see leasing as a very attractive alternative.

Even a TV that costs $1200 and breaks in 3 years is thrown into landfill these days. and we are already at a point where any car on the road today worth $6000 is immediately totaled by an engine failure.

Once repair labor costs reach $150 to $200 an hour, it's quite possible that $1500 brake jobs and $2000 "bumper-benders" are not far off for the most common and inexpensive cars.

So I see a future where most cars will be leased, where more and more older cars will be junked rather than repaired, and where only top notch independent specialists will survive in the car repair business. Everyone else will disappear, including small indy general repair shops, jiffy-lubes, tire stores, Autozone---the whole shebang.

Time frame? Starting in the early 2020s'.

You wouldn't be able to afford to lease a car that is worthless after four or five years.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2016

It would only be worthless to people who can't afford to fix it. Keep in mind also that cars will be built differently and that this will be yet another way of coping with crushing repair costs in the future. Perhaps Steve's "repair by wi-fi" will become a reality.

andres3 · September 2016

I just don't see renting a vehicle (whether a long term rental called a lease or a short term "time" rental ala sharing app start-up type program) will ever be a good value for a value-conscious buyer (who has an eye on long-term costs).

People just don't treat something they don't own very well, and a lot of people don't even treat stuff they do own very well. If ride-sharing programs ever became cheap enough to be financially feasible I'd be the guy going around with my foot to the floor from stoplight to stoplight. That would raise the maintenance costs that have to be spread around (brake pads and tires, for one).

Mr_Shiftright · September 2016

Hmmm...could we find evidence that lease cars are currently abused?

Michaell · September 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
Hmmm...could we find evidence that lease cars are currently abused?

I think the point was that if the residual value of a lease car at the end of the lease was $0, the lease payment would be prohibitively high.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2016

I was addressing another issue when I was asking about evidence of abuse---the idea that leased cars are more abused than owned cars because they are "rented".

andres3 · September 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
I was addressing another issue when I was asking about evidence of abuse---the idea that leased cars are more abused than owned cars because they are "rented".

Probably far more than offset by the better maintenance factor. Leases make you keep up with the maintenance, most throw in the first one free, some all of them are free. I think that means leases might actually make good CPO buys.

Is there any evidence Hertz/Enterprise rentals are abused more than "owned" vehicles?

stever · September 2016

Those cars won't have pedals @andres3. You'll just tell the car your destination and from that point on, all you can do is yell at it to move faster.

andres3 · September 2016

stever said:
Those cars won't have pedals @andres3. You'll just tell the car your destination and from that point on, all you can do is yell at it to move faster.

I used to slam and throw my Nintendo controllers when a video game would get frustrating and the computer would "cheat." I wonder if there's a "TILT" feature built-in these autonomous cars.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2016

Maybe it'll take itself in for service whether you want it to or not. One morning, you'll just get a text that says "I'm at the dealership getting the 30K. Don't worry, I checked off every option box".

stever · September 2016

andres3 said:

stever said:
Those cars won't have pedals @andres3. You'll just tell the car your destination and from that point on, all you can do is yell at it to move faster.
I used to slam and throw my Nintendo controllers when a video game would get frustrating and the computer would "cheat." I wonder if there's a "TILT" feature built-in these autonomous cars.

Probably so, I play Wild West Pinball on my iPad and it'll tilt on you.

thecardoc3 · October 2016

Do you think this add will work?

http://jobs.autonews.com/jobseeker/job/30207518/AUTOMOTIVE TECHNICIANS/MERCEDES-BENZ OF BONITA SPRINGS IN SOUTH WEST FLORIDA/?str=101&max=25&vnet=0

stever · October 2016

Got this:

We're sorry, but this job has either expired or been removed.

What was the gist?

thecardoc3 · October 2016

Hmmm, oh well. The add started off with (paraphrased) "Are You Sick Of" poor wages and benefits, working conditions, not enough work, poor management, etcetera, all in capitalized bullet points.

It was a Mercedes dealership in Florida that placed the add some 30 days ago which means it probably did simply expire. I'll have to check to see if they repost it. What was telling about it was as much what it did say as what it didn't. There was no mention of the kind of pay plan that a tech could expect, nor anything suggesting what kind of wages they are offering. With the add running more than 30 days, its likely they were still looking for qualified candidates and I wonder if they got any response at all.

thecardoc3 · October 2016

Got to love the Tesla window/door thread, and especially the responses. http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/43045/tesla/model-x/door-and-window-confusion-2016-tesla-model-x-long-term-road-test#latest

There is a finite set of ways that the vehicle systems could employ to detect whether the door was open or not. But the way that information would be shared by the various modules and just what kind of support a scan tool would give a technician needed to address that problem is a complete unknown at this time. This goes way beyond the simplified perspectives of a door ajar switch/circuit as being at fault. What ever the signal is and how it is generated has to be understood, the circuit issue proven as to what is really going on, and then the tech has to prove exactly why it is failing in order to fix the issue. The tendency to oversimplify that (for decades) has been a major contributor to the of shortage of qualified technicians.

Then there is the fact that this problem started occurring in August(?) and they were only this week able to get the repair facility to try and investigate it? It would be fitting if the problem went random and left no true path to the answer as cars often do. That might force someone to try and guess which leads to the scenario where the only real proof is a negative where the guess didn't fix it, because the problem not re-occurring only means that it hasn't happened again, yet.

There is of course the very real possibility that this will be repaired with routine precision, and that's a testament to the technicians who strove to be capable, qualified and up to the task in spite of how we have been treated by the very people we are there to try and help.

stever · October 2016

From what you've been telling us, it sounds like the shops need to just run the help wanted ads non-stop.

thecardoc3 · October 2016

What good would that do if the career remains one that isn't sought after?

Here is a question for everyone. "What would it take for you to desire a career as an automotive technician?" What would it have to pay, what kind of benefits would you need to get etc.

stever · October 2016

Clean shop, tools provided, 4 day work week (run overlapping shifts with 6 day service), medical/dental, 4 weeks paid vacation, free continuing ed and employee discount on new/used cars. Starting salary would be $40,000 with 6 month raises. So the starting hourly would be ~$24. Use the rate book but go to hourly case by case when a problem car comes in. Team newbies with the experienced techs and make everyone work the service desk periodically.

Oh, and massage chairs in the employee break room.

thecardoc3 · October 2016

So how much do you think it would cost the customer per hour for the shop to meet your demands?

stever · October 2016

Just the labor portion or are you talking rent, lights, insurance and all the rest?

For the labor (usual disclaimers about my math), for the $24 an hour entry level tech, you'd charge $80 an hour (24/30%) to net a 70% gross profit. Split the difference for the $40 an hour techs and call it $130 an hour.

thecardoc3 · October 2016

stever said:
Just the labor portion or are you talking rent, lights, insurance and all the rest?

The whole ball of wax.

stever · October 2016

You caught me while I was editing, see above. Here's a link.

thecardoc3 · October 2016

stever said:
For the labor (usual disclaimers about my math), for the $24 an hour entry level tech, you'd charge $80 an hour (24/30%) to net a 70% gross profit. Split the difference for the $40 an hour techs and call it $130 an hour.

Hmmm, $130 an hour? You know that you would be called a crook if you go over $75 around this part of the country, right?

stever · October 2016

In that case, charge $75, play games with the flat rate book and upsell like crazy.

Business as usual in other words.

Oh, and good luck keeping techs.

thecardoc3 · October 2016

There was an alternative. No flat rate games. No upselling. Put in one hundred hour weeks. Study constantly. Spend every spare dollar on the tools that were necessary to do the work. Then pray that the consumer realizes the difference.

stever · October 2016

You'd do better to buy a Quickie Lube franchise. One rule of thumb (dated, most likely), said start-up costs for an auto repair shop was $400,000. Bet you could get into a franchise for less and have an easier time getting financing..

thecardoc3 · October 2016

stever said:
You'd do better to buy a Quickie Lube franchise. One rule of thumb (dated, most likely), said start-up costs for an auto repair shop was $400,000.

It's well over 1/2 a mil today. Besides, going the quickie lube route doesn't grow a tech that can actually fix anything.

stever · October 2016

Do you want to learn how to work on cars for peanuts or upsell flushes and retire at 60?

Mr_Shiftright · October 2016

thecardoc3 said:

stever said:
For the labor (usual disclaimers about my math), for the $24 an hour entry level tech, you'd charge $80 an hour (24/30%) to net a 70% gross profit. Split the difference for the $40 an hour techs and call it $130 an hour.
Hmmm, $130 an hour? You know that you would be called a crook if you go over $75 around this part of the country, right?

I don't agree. If you can fix cars nobody else can, then you aren't a crook, you're a genius.

This is why techs have to specialize...an MB or Lexus or other highline car owner will pay $130. The others won't, or can't most likely. A Chevrolet Cruze can torment you as much as a Cadillac Escalade, so you might as well play the odds.

thecardoc3 · October 2016

stever said:
Do you want to learn how to work on cars for peanuts or upsell flushes and retire at 60?

Shouldn't there should be more choices than just those two?

thecardoc3 · October 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:
I don't agree. If you can fix cars nobody else can, then you aren't a crook, you're a genius.

So why was there so much effort put into suggesting otherwise for the last twenty+ years?

Mr_Shiftright said:

This is why techs have to specialize...an MB or Lexus or other highline car owner will pay $130. The others won't, or can't most likely. A Chevrolet Cruze can torment you as much as a Cadillac Escalade, so you might as well play the odds.

So does that mean the next time a consumer has a complaint where the car isn't diagnosed correctly, you'll tell them that there are great techs but Chevrolet owners just won't pay enough for them to bother dealing with their cars? I'm going to bet they won't want to accept that, even if it is true.

roadburner · October 2016

Mr_Shiftright said:

This is why techs have to specialize...an MB or Lexus or other highline car owner will pay $130. The others won't, or can't most likely. A Chevrolet Cruze can torment you as much as a Cadillac Escalade, so you might as well play the odds.

I'd definitely specialize in a specific marque(or at most a nationality) if I was opening a shop.

thecardoc3 · October 2016

That's an absolute must today. Anyone trying to work on all makes and models is most likely working on cars that are a decade old or more and even then they are only doing the simplest stuff. (aka tires, brakes, scheduled maintenance) The high tech stuff would eat them alive just from the tooling costs, let alone what it takes to keep a tech up to speed.

A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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